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EQ2/Vanguard, whats wrong with SOE ?
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
Vanguard is by far a better game than EQ2.
EQ2 is a broken game for new players, it always had been. Expansion after expansion and it's a new players nightmare. New players start all the time only to quit shortly after, with all the expansions the game is put together like a jig saw puzzle. No one can ever figure out how to get around, the old starting areas never get any love ( never did ), the owners manual is so old its ridiculous, and you have to download it anyway. The manual is not helpful to the new players it speaks to you as if you already understand the game, and it's only good as a reference, leaving new players in the cold.
Time after time I see new players on this forum all excited about EQ2, yet their gone soon after. YES it's an interesting game, yes it's full and has it all, large world, many good classes, dungeons, raids, player housing, crafting, BUT what good is it ......... It's a mess to play, except to the veterans. New players get shrugged. People will say that they help the new player, but that's just not true, maybe verbally, but they will not play with them, as they have their own agenda. Even the low level alts are always working with their click groups on AA's. New players get ignored, yes all servers, all guilds.
BY now I know what your thinking......... This guy hates the community, Right ?........Well I used to think that way, but after several times of being discouraged with EQ2, I had found that it's not their fault. It's SOE. It's an old game, it's top heavy,,,, well so isn't WoW..... Yet Blizzard takes measures to keep their game alive for new players, SOE does nothing, WoW starts new servers and HIGHLY RECOMMENDS that the new player starts their, EQ2 does nothing....ever... EQ2 is a mess for new players, yet they sold millions of copies of their latest expansion with nothing for the beginner, and they advertise the game as if it's new, fresh and exciting, sucking in a new batch of players, only to watch them leave soon after.
Vanguard - Well we all know the deal, ya it was a release fail, blah, blah, we don't have to go into all that, BUT IT'S A FIXED GAME NOW. Sure the coding has it's problems running on low end computers, but it's no worse than EQ2. People are screaming for over a year on the Vanguard board that they love it, yet the population is low. SOE is keeping it that way, with it's zero advertising policy. We can't unite to bring players, that just will not work, It's SOE's responsibility....BUT SOE does nothing, just like always.
Vanguard is now a well oiled game, It's not broken like some are trying to say, It's not a jig saw puzzle, and it has just as much as EQ2 if not more, besides the graphics are much better. It just has a dead population. Many say that SOE is sabotaging the game until they can close it down. But I know better, This is why :
SOE works on profit by selling their games, expansions and digital downloads. Their policy is screw retention, we don't need people to play, they don't like to pay for server time anyway, so let them leave, we filled our obligation. We have veteran players keeping the game motivated at an on par level. Let's not look back on old content, just have the dev team work on the future, " the big money in in the future ".
Vanguard is already a full game. They can't justify their expansion pack trick to make their profit, so they let it sit. I'm sure it killed them to make the trial island, but let's face it, it had to be done.
For the most part, SOE sucks !!!
Comments
I think SOE should turn Vanguard into a Free to play game like Turbine dine with Dungeons and Dragons Online.
EQ2's new players come from where? WoW.
WoW has the best combat system on the market.
EQ2's combat system is unresponsive and boring. There are few combat features and though you might have a lot of buttons to push, the buttons are very repetitive.
So former WoW players get bored quick and they head back to WoW.
Want to make EQ2 successful? Revamp the combat system and get rid of the lag.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Personally Vanguard should be shut down for like 6mo to a yr, fix it and make it what it should have been. Then relaunch it under the title of Everquest III...
However, Sony are arrogant pricks so that will never happen!
EQ2 and Vanguard are completely different games. Vanguard has great core systems of combat, classes and crafting with very poor fluff, eye candy, flash and content. EQ2 has great content, eye candy and fluff but terrible core systems of combat, classes and crafrting.
SOE funds and develops EQ2 and does not do so with vanguard, simply because EQ2 is their game and their investors put money into the game. If they developed and funded Vanguard and it killed EQ2 those investors would not be happy. They bought Vanguard for one reason as it was a risk to EQ2. Once they owned Vanguard they had no reason to develop it. Which is why they quickly moved team members to EQ2 and cut the Vanguard staff to nothing but a skeleton crew. This i simply why SOE has done nothing with Vanguard except watch it wither and die. I am sure they know Vanguard is a much better game at its core than EQ2 but company politics would never let them develop the game. They will hopefully sue vanguard and its ideas for EQNext and make EQNext what EQ2 should have been.
SOE did not develop Vanguard. That is why they will never do anything with it.
After they bought it, the never advertised it, publicized it, or even talked about it during the SOE Gaming Conventions.
They bought it to make the Station Pass (or whatever it's called) a bit more attractive, and let it die. All they wanted was to get their money back....whch I'm sure they did.
Some like to say that SOE saved the game. All they did was prevent someone else from buying it and turning it into the game it should have been.
There are tons of WoW clones on the market and they are failing. The simple fact is that all MMORPGs regardless of mechanics are niche, except for WoW. WoW's success is because WoW is WoW, it can not and will not be replicated. All MMOPRPGs made since WoW are basically failures. Including the one's that cloned WoW.
It is time MMORPG fans get their heads out of their rearends, regardless of the mechnic system you prefer, you are a niche player unless you are playing WoW. WoW is not successful for any design reason what so ever, it is popular because it is WoW. We live in an age of branding and WoW did an excellent job in creating its brand.
It is that simple, the same reason teenie boopers buy their clothes is the same reason WoW is popular, excellent marketing and brand appeal. I know many MMORPG developers want to fight against this, they want to believe that they impact the success of the final product, but in the end it is all about successful branding.
Maybe TOR will have the brand appeal to be then next big thing, and maybe it won't. Time will tell, but in the end, mechanics have nothing to do with success, it is all branding.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
SOE did save the game, after MS noticed it was a trainwreck they bailed and if SOE hand thave picked it up it likely would have just never come out.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I think WoW is successful because of it's responsive and complex combat system.
Where did 11 million subs come from? Mostly word-of-mouth.
You can't keep a good game a secret.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I disagree, i dont think branding is the real reason for WoW's popularity, although i do think that the advertising campaigns did have a huge positive impact, its mainly because the game is easy to play, and that it runs on most computer systems without being too demanding, and yet still being visually 'pleasing' then there is the rewards system, in WoW there is a sense of achievement for completing quests and getting new shiny stuff to equip your character with (bling works well in WoW!) which makes it appealing to players acquisitive natures. the game is appealing to both the casual and hardcore players, whether its for 30 minutes or 3 hours, it may be gaming on easy mode, but Blizzard does it's best to make the game fun!
SOE did not buy it until about 2 months or so after release.
It was released by Sigil.....Brad McQuaids company.
Marketing the Blizzard and Warcraft brand.
And there are tons of games basically just like WoW, they all fail because they lack the brand.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
No there aren't.
If a game was similar to WoW, it would take part of WoW's player base. No game has touched WoW so far.
Few players knew the name Blizzard before they joined WoW. People joined WoW because friends and relatives were playing it. Word of mouth.
Give me an example of a game that is a clone of WoW?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Exactly!
Vanguard was a Everquest 2 killer, and SOE prevented any loss on their side, by getting involved. If someone else came along, and made Vanguard the game it should've been. Well in my opinion, alllllloooottttttttttt less people would be playing EQ2.
Complex combat system? lol You must be joking. It is popular because it is casual friendly and word of mouth.
I don't really agree that WOW opening servers addresses the New Player Game Experience being poor. It's still poor (perhaps less poor than other MMORPGs, but still bland.)
What WOW, EQ2, and many other games need is to figure out efficient ways of updating the early gameplay.
Expansions like Cataclysm can result in massive improvements to the early gameplay experience, but imo doesn't seem like a realistic solution for anyone but WOW. It's not a particularly efficient way to create content. Most devs can't afford to spend time/money on content that few players are running through compared to high levels. But the problem is: they can't afford not to spend time/money on retaining new players either. Which is why devs need to come up with efficient ways of updating both parts of their game at once, as their technology and design skills increase (as a game ages, the devs of that game learn what works and what doesn't -- and since all the old content is made when they were still making silly mistakes, it's really helpful if they can get a chance to go back and update that early content.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am so sick of this thread. This thread is so verbatim from the last three years. Howerver, I do have one question now. Does anyone know if the TRUE amount that SOE paid for Vanguard? Is there even an inkling of how much the paid?
dont see how vanguard is a less broken game for new players....or any other MMO Ive played that got afew years on the market.
jigsaw expansions, erh well they got some diffrent theme´s yes, just like there is diffrent parts of the world in RL. and its better than no expansions at alll.
that said do believe vanguard is the better MMO. just dont see the need to hate on EQ2 for those reasons
edit: would like to hear some ppls thought on how to avoid it tho. and dont come with the no lvl but skill lvl. am sure in no lvl games players stop visit the original parts of game as well...in lvl based games, let ppl start at a higher lvl if they prefer? is just about the only Idea I could get.
ofc can make sure there is a reason to go back to old areas. but then would it really make ppl group up with new ppl when got their own goal in mind.
current solution: make lvling in start faster and everything soloable
@original poster
It all stems from soes management and their focus as a company. They have simply lost the passion to make games and just want to make products that will generat revenue streams. This is the corporate culture being set by their upper managment and its effect shows on the entire company.
As a result, they neither listen to nor understand gamers anymore. It is also a major reason why their design process is so fubar and they hemorrhage developers and producers at alarming rates. I think every one of their mmos (live and still under production) have undergone several changes in leadership (which also changes the focus) over the last several years. There is just something so wrong behind the scenes to cause this type of turnover and the lack of any big name hires is just as scary.
Why on earth would a company put a community relationship manager in charge of production for their largest mmo?
So if branding/marketing is so important then why did the following MMOs not prosper like warcraft? Certainly they should have some measure of success that makes them noteworthy as well.
The Sims online, Warhammer, Lord of the Rings, Age of Conan, Dungeons and Dragons, Star Trek online, Star wars galaxies, etc etc.
All of those are massive brands and had large established companies behind them.
If all it takes is some advertsing and a brand to make such a massive success, what went wrong with those games? The certainly had your criteria for massive success.
In Everquest you had to work for what you got, and that's what made the game worth playing. I played a free trial of EQ2, and it seemed like a great game. In WoW, you don't have to even try. I hated the style, and the ease of play. I'm glad that EQ2 is out there, even though it isn't doing that well. At least, it's a game worth playing.
PS: I got a lot of help on the EQ2 RP server.
They tried that with Swg already...
Make it so...
SOE saved and doomed Vanguard.
They saved it from the servers being turned off, but they doomed it to sit and rot because it was a threat to EQ2.
If Vanguard had more people, I'd probably give it a shot. It's an awesome game for RP.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
To be fair ( I'm not taking SoE's side btw) They didn't just come along, Brad was the one that came to them for help because MS dropped him.
Now, even though SoE fixxed it a little, that doesn't mean that the Sigil employees couldn't have done it themselves. It woulda just taken longer thats all. Personally, I woulda stuck it out with them regardless, it was a good game. SoE just made Vanguard more and more like EQ2, and there's a reason behind it. When people get sick and tired of playing Vanguard, since it became more and more like EQ2 SoE thinks they would move over and switch to playing EQ2 a game that gets more attention and fixes and all the shebang.
And TBH I had so much more fun memories playing Vanguard back in its first 3 months when it released. There was lots of people playing, grouping wasn't an issue. There were some mines in the mountains that was huge, and when I went back to revisit them a few times, it just got shrunken down, old boss mobs wasn't around anymore. Lots of items were deleted, the BoP was implemented, crafting changed a whole lot. Everything just wasn't fun anymore.
Wrong.
SOE financed at least the last 6 months or so of Vanguard before it ever launched. Microsoft dropped it due to the mess it was.
It was a cluster-frack long before SOE become invovled. I suggest you do research next time before slinging mis-information,
Sigil was the developer....but it was released by SOE. Ya know...the publisher.
When Vanguard bombed, Sigil had no way to pay off SOE, thus I would imagine the contract was written to the effect that it would become SOE's entirely.
The SOE hate around here is amazing....shame folks cant stick to facts. Sort of like SWG and its 500k, 1M, 5M, etc subs. Come back to reality eh? SWG topped at 300k at launch, and fell from there...and Vanguard/MxO were both bombs before SOE got their hands on them.
As far as EQ2 goes....I think the wife is finally burning out on it after about 4.5 yrs. I think when Scott Hartsman left it hurt the direction of game. I dont know....I just never enjoyed it as it didnt feel like EQ1 to me.
Had that game been more polished ala WoW at launch, I think it would of done better though.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Just because you don't know how to use the skills and combat mechanics to their full potential doesn't mean it's not complex.