You prove there isn't. You can't, just as you say I can't (and yes, I don't have petitions so I can't, lol). That said, I'm not suggesting ALL developers make your type of game. I'm saying it would be nice to have al ittle more modern day made variety out there. If just ONE game was made and it flopped, then I'd have no issue saying to you and yours that you're right. I doubt I'd get the same response if one were made and it held 500,000 subscriptions, putting it ahead of most reported P2P games except LOTRO and WoW. And that sub total would make it just as profitable or moreso in certain situations.
Never understood why some folks have to have every single MMO that comes out made in their own preferred playstyle and jump at every chance to shout down people who express interest in wanting something different.
I don't have to, I'm not the one claiming that there are all these people. You are. Therefore the burden of proof rests solely on your shoulders. Certainly, if you can't back up your claims, there's no reason for developers to take you at all seriously.
Would it be nice to have more variety? Sure. But MMOs are a business, they exist to make money. Therefore in order to have the kind of variety you want to see, they have to know that there is a ready-made market for the game you're asking them to spend millions of dollars and years of their lives on. If you can't produce that, then why should they take you seriously?
Come on, a little common sense here would be nice.
I played WOW for over 18 monhts with its frantic, no down time game mechanics and I still know exactly....... zero people, while I'm still close friends with people from Lineage 1, DAOC and Lineage 2, but then those games had game mechanics like forced down time, encouraged grouping and the like that formed long term bonds between disparate strangers.
You didn't join a guild? .. or any groups? .. didn't add a single person to your friends list? .. didn't chat during one of the very "down time game mechanics" whose existence you deny in WoW? (Flights, Boats, Corpse Running, Rebuffing, Eating/Drinking etc)
I can usually see the logic in your posts, despite them coming from a viewpoint that is often diametrically opposed to my own; but this statement just smacks of blatant WoW bashing.
It's either a complete fabrication (my instinct is that this is so) or calls into question your veracity when claiming that you play MMOs for the socialisation.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
First off, I was addressing a specific poster. Second off, to address you......just stop.
Yes, there are old-school virtual world games still around.....you know WHY they're still around?? Nothing new in that vein has been made. Don't try to tell me that they "aren't popular" when every day we read post after post and thread after thread on tehse very forums asking for such games....couple with the fact that, as we've already established...older virtual world games still exist, and still have players.
I know you would really LOVE to think that your opinion that virtual worlds "aren't viable" actually is a fact...but it's not, I'm sorry. It is your opinion, nothing more.
I'm sorry, also that you don't care for immersion in your games...but the vast majority of gamers I think would disagree with you on that point. I draw this conclusion from...once again...threads on this site, and others....as well as the millions of people playing Zelda, Oblivion, Fallout 3, The Witcher, Bioware Games, as well as countless other RPGs. IN fact, Bioware is pretty much counting on you being wrong with their development of TOR.
Enjoy playing your mindless button-mashers on your Xbox.
First off, you posted it in a public forum. If you wanted to address a specific individual, you should have sent it in a PM. Once you post it here, it's open game for anyone who wants to respond.
Secondly, yes there are "virtual world" games out there. Not many and certainly not successful, but they exist. So why aren't people playing them? If there are a million fans of those games, why don't those games have a million players? You act like anything said in these forums represents anything in the real world. The people who post here are the extremists, the fanatics, the vocal minority who really don't represent anything among the mainstream MMO players. All that counts in the real world are raw sub numbers. When the overwhelming majority of subs are going to non-virtual-world games, what are developers supposed to think?
Personally, I don't find any of those games to be particularly immersive, sorry. I mean, sure you can be immersed in just about any game. My wife and I sat down and were playing Lego Indiana Jones last night at about 9pm and before we knew it, it was 5am. Wow, we were immersed. That doesn't make Lego Indiana Jones a particularly immersive game design though.
And I don't own an Xbox, nor do I want one, but thanks.
Great for single player games, but MMORPG's are (or perhaps were) designed to bring in money over time, many years in fact. Maybe this is the new fate of MMO's to be quick hit games like single player ones to be 'one and done'd'
But as for the 10 minute waits you decry, you don't understand their real purpose, its not just to frustrate you, its to encourage you to socialize with the other folks waiting with you, because that's what MMORPG's are really all about, socialization.
It's funny how people always declare "this is what MMORPG's are really all about". What they're really all about is making money for the developers. They do that by getting the consumer to keep paying their monthly sub fee over and over, forever if possible. One of the ways they do that is by offering mindless carrot-and-stick grinds and pointless time wasters, like standing around waiting for a shuttle. The more time you stand there slack-jawed, the more monthly fees you cough up and the more money they make.
MMOs are not "really all about" socialization, grouping, gear-whoring, end-game-rushing or anything else. They're about paying a developer for entertainment. Don't kid yourself and think otherwise.
On a side...minor things like waiting for a ship, shuttle, ferry, etc are not bad game design in a virtual world. They add one more bit of authenticity to the game....aiding in the suspension of disbelief. When the world feels more real, the game feels more immersive, and you're less likely to get bored in two months and come running to this forum complaining about how MMORPGs suck these days.
LOL .. asking the players to do NOTHING for 10 min is not bad game design??? We don't want games to be more "real". Should they require you to go to the bathroom and sit for 10 min every 5 hrs too? How is that for realism. People play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Oh no .. it won't take two months to get bored with a game that requires me to stand around for 10 min .. it will only take 10 min. I won't touch such a game with a 100 feet pole.
And btw, what is the problem with games entertaining a player for 2 months? That is 8 times the times a SP game (usuall about a week) will last. Nothing wrong with being entertained for 2 months and then moving on.
I think it's a game design that definitley had its place but just didn't wear well over time.
In the past what people would do was socialize, maybe duel or of course if the game had a more pvp bent then they were open to attack.
I do think it worked for the time it was in.
As an example, Lineage 2 was my first game. when i was faced with using a boat and waiting for it, it didn't seem out of place. and all that I mentioned above would happen.
Now, several years have gone by, I resubbed to Lineage 2 for nostalgia reasons and went to use a boat. While waiting on the dock with my ticket I couldn't help but feel how novel the whole experience was.
But the thing about such experiences is that they can vary depending on the circumstances.
Let's say I only have an hour to play. And I need to keep going back to the guild hall for buffs. All that travel time to that island then becomes playing the "waiting" game.
Which can be about as much fun as the "line" ride.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
On a side...minor things like waiting for a ship, shuttle, ferry, etc are not bad game design in a virtual world. They add one more bit of authenticity to the game....aiding in the suspension of disbelief. When the world feels more real, the game feels more immersive, and you're less likely to get bored in two months and come running to this forum complaining about how MMORPGs suck these days.
LOL .. asking the players to do NOTHING for 10 min is not bad game design??? We don't want games to be more "real". Should they require you to go to the bathroom and sit for 10 min every 5 hrs too? How is that for realism. People play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Oh no .. it won't take two months to get bored with a game that requires me to stand around for 10 min .. it will only take 10 min. I won't touch such a game with a 100 feet pole.
And btw, what is the problem with games entertaining a player for 2 months? That is 8 times the times a SP game (usuall about a week) will last. Nothing wrong with being entertained for 2 months and then moving on.
I think it's a game design that definitley had its place but just didn't wear well over time.
In the past what people would do was socialize, maybe duel or of course if the game had a more pvp bent then they were open to attack.
I do think it worked for the time it was in.
As an example, Lineage 2 was my first game. when i was faced with using a boat and waiting for it, it didn't seem out of place. and all that I mentioned above would happen.
Now, several years have gone by, I resubbed to Lineage 2 for nostalgia reasons and went to use a boat. While waiting on the dock with my ticket I couldn't help but feel how novel the whole experience was.
But the thing about such experiences is that they can vary depending on the circumstances.
Let's say I only have an hour to play. And I need to keep going back to the guild hall for buffs. All that travel time to that island then becomes playing the "waiting" game.
Which can be about as much fun as the "line" ride.
Yeah, I definately see why they remove alot of things like "waiting" from games. Lets face it, the majority of people don't have time to wait or are too impatient. Myself? I liked waiting for shuttles and boats. Well, that's not the whole truth ... I tried like hell to get to the shuttle or boat before it took off. However, i miss the interaction with people while you waited or the wars that broke out in SWG. It seems like the immersion and community have been taken out of most mmorpgs, and that is what makes these newer ones just a "game". Community now consists of being an obnoxious douche bag to the whole server, while good deeds and good behavior go unrewarded and unnoticed.
On a side...minor things like waiting for a ship, shuttle, ferry, etc are not bad game design in a virtual world. They add one more bit of authenticity to the game....aiding in the suspension of disbelief. When the world feels more real, the game feels more immersive, and you're less likely to get bored in two months and come running to this forum complaining about how MMORPGs suck these days.
LOL .. asking the players to do NOTHING for 10 min is not bad game design??? We don't want games to be more "real". Should they require you to go to the bathroom and sit for 10 min every 5 hrs too? How is that for realism. People play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Oh no .. it won't take two months to get bored with a game that requires me to stand around for 10 min .. it will only take 10 min. I won't touch such a game with a 100 feet pole.
And btw, what is the problem with games entertaining a player for 2 months? That is 8 times the times a SP game (usuall about a week) will last. Nothing wrong with being entertained for 2 months and then moving on.
I think it's a game design that definitley had its place but just didn't wear well over time.
In the past what people would do was socialize, maybe duel or of course if the game had a more pvp bent then they were open to attack.
I do think it worked for the time it was in.
As an example, Lineage 2 was my first game. when i was faced with using a boat and waiting for it, it didn't seem out of place. and all that I mentioned above would happen.
Now, several years have gone by, I resubbed to Lineage 2 for nostalgia reasons and went to use a boat. While waiting on the dock with my ticket I couldn't help but feel how novel the whole experience was.
But the thing about such experiences is that they can vary depending on the circumstances.
Let's say I only have an hour to play. And I need to keep going back to the guild hall for buffs. All that travel time to that island then becomes playing the "waiting" game.
Which can be about as much fun as the "line" ride.
Yeah, I definately see why they remove alot of things like "waiting" from games. Lets face it, the majority of people don't have time to wait or are too impatient. Myself? I liked waiting for shuttles and boats. Well, that's not the whole truth ... I tried like hell to get to the shuttle or boat before it took off. However, i miss the interaction with people while you waited or the wars that broke out in SWG. It seems like the immersion and community have been taken out of most mmorpgs, and that is what makes these newer ones just a "game". Community now consists of being an obnoxious douche bag to the whole server, while good deeds and good behavior go unrewarded and unnoticed.
I'd also add that the players who were the early adopters to these online games were just built a bit differently and were more inclined to be social in these games.
what has happened is that the audience for these games has opened up and and the people who are not inclined to be social in a video game, at least how the early players were, have sort of diluted the playerbase.
I'll be honest, I'm not incredibly social in these games except for some friends I met in Lineage 2 or if some player asks a question that I can answer.
Part of that is that I'm just so much more social in "real life" but part of that is that I'm just not the type of person to strike up a conversation while waiting for transport. In game OR in real life.
for me, social interaction has to be natural and organic. And my sense is that people who are coming to these games now that they are more popular have a different sense of being social.
If games stayed exactly the same as they were in the UO, or SWG or EQ days I imagine there would be some more people but not the numbers we have now.
And of course there are people who would be fine with that. I'm not sure how that would have affected the industry though. Would the choices of games stay low because there just wouldn't be a population to support more?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Virtual Worlds are not just dead, ALL MMORPGS ARE DEAD.
WoW has proven one thing, the MMORPG market is a niche and nothing more. We have had countless WoW clones out there, countless games that copy the mechinics and style of WoW and guess what? They are all failures.
Why? Because WoW's success has nothing to do with design or mechnics, WoW's success is for the same reason teens buy their clothes, branding. WoW has one thing WoW clones will never have, the WoW brand. It is that simple.
We go on here debating the merits of themeparks or sandboxes or whatever, well guess what? That is a meaningless debate. No MMORPG will ever approach the popularity of WoW because WoW has the brand and that is it. By the old, "what's more popular argument, sandboxes or themeparks?" The answer is WoW, nothing more nothing less.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Virtual Worlds are not just dead, ALL MMORPGS ARE DEAD.
WoW has proven one thing, the MMORPG market is a niche and nothing more. We have had countless WoW clones out there, countless games that copy the mechinics and style of WoW and guess what? They are all failures.
Why? Because WoW's success has nothing to do with design or mechnics, WoW's success is for the same reason teens buy their clothes, branding. WoW has one thing WoW clones will never have, the WoW brand. It is that simple.
We go on here debating the merits of themeparks or sandboxes or whatever, well guess what? That is a meaningless debate. No MMORPG will ever approach the popularity of WoW because WoW has the brand and that is it. By the old, "what's more popular argument, sandboxes or themeparks?" The answer is WoW, nothing more nothing less.
To suggest that people are still playing a game 6 years down the line purely because of "the brand" defies any sense of logic or common sense.
It's not as if there's a shortage of MMOs out at the moment.
People are playing WoW because they find the game to be more fun than the alternatives.
Recent themeparks have failed because they were crappy games.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The reason SWG was losing subs wasn't because of what I'm talking about. SWG launched a buggy mess because SOE rushed it and lost tons of interest there. When they finally got the game on the rails by November 2003, they then destroyed it with the Jedi. They kept dumbing down the game and removed TEF and focused all their efforts on fixing Jedi. This led to them ignoring the rest of the game, like they added more bugs in every patch and no content. People were leaving because of this.
Had nothing to do with the type of game, just SOE putting in no content, dumbing it down and adding bugs instead of removing them.
Thanks for explaining the reason I left SWG, and here I thought it was because of the thing you were talking about.
I admit that SWG had travel time, shuttle stop waits, complex interdependent crafting. And I agree that is why many Vets lament the game.
But NONE of the things mentioned in the OP have diddley or squat to do with star wars!
Does this sound like a typical fan?:
My favorite part of Star Wars was the part where they spent hours crafting things! Remember those scenes? Crafting practically dominated the story. I'm pretty sure the emperor would still be alive if it hadn't been for all the crafting in Star Wars.
But I have to say I'm a little dissappointed the movies didn't have more waiting around for shuttles to transport them. Watching Luke read the paper at a space port for 10 minutes really would have immersed me in the movies a lot more!
And then who could forget how entertainers moved the story along. Without the jazz band in Mos Eisley - the death star would still be here.
_________________________________________
I am sorry. Crafting may have been complex. Socialization may have been done well. Long wait times for travel may have immersed you. Not one of those aspects has jack or squat to do with the essential ingredients which make something feel like Star Wars. So for about 250k it was the perfect game. For millions upon millions of Star Wars fans it was not.
You may have pretended to be a tailor in the Star Wars universe growing up, most of us were wielding light sabers and blasters trying to bring down a tyrannical evil overlord.
How devs pitched a mellow, downtime infused, complex crafting game centered not upon the high adventure of star wars but rather the mundane everyday existance in the background of the central plot line to George Lucas and succeeded is beyond my understanding.
You're missing something important here.
That is....you're comparing apples to oranges. A movie is designed to give you two hours of quick entertainment.
At the time that SWG was made, an MMORPG was designed to give you several YEARS of entertainment.
What the SWG devs tried to do was simply create the Star Wars universe....and let the players live in it...inwhatever way they chose.
No one was FORCED to be the "hero", the 'chosen one", or to only participate in "epic, exciting adventures".
The early MMORPGs created a world, and said "here, go live in it".
You didn't HAVE to craft. You could be a combat oriented player. But you had the CHOICE to do either...and more.
Yes, I agree. I am not missing anything important, I get it. You are missing something important - I think that what you described above is a stupid premise for the first Star Wars mmo. I believe that concept will not be attractive to the wide Star Wars IP fanbase. Guess what, I was right.
The reason SWG was losing subs wasn't because of what I'm talking about. SWG launched a buggy mess because SOE rushed it and lost tons of interest there. When they finally got the game on the rails by November 2003, they then destroyed it with the Jedi. They kept dumbing down the game and removed TEF and focused all their efforts on fixing Jedi. This led to them ignoring the rest of the game, like they added more bugs in every patch and no content. People were leaving because of this.
Had nothing to do with the type of game, just SOE putting in no content, dumbing it down and adding bugs instead of removing them.
Thanks for explaining the reason I left SWG, and here I thought it was because of the thing you were talking about.
I admit that SWG had travel time, shuttle stop waits, complex interdependent crafting. And I agree that is why many Vets lament the game.
But NONE of the things mentioned in the OP have diddley or squat to do with star wars!
Does this sound like a typical fan?:
My favorite part of Star Wars was the part where they spent hours crafting things! Remember those scenes? Crafting practically dominated the story. I'm pretty sure the emperor would still be alive if it hadn't been for all the crafting in Star Wars.
But I have to say I'm a little dissappointed the movies didn't have more waiting around for shuttles to transport them. Watching Luke read the paper at a space port for 10 minutes really would have immersed me in the movies a lot more!
And then who could forget how entertainers moved the story along. Without the jazz band in Mos Eisley - the death star would still be here.
_________________________________________
I am sorry. Crafting may have been complex. Socialization may have been done well. Long wait times for travel may have immersed you. Not one of those aspects has jack or squat to do with the essential ingredients which make something feel like Star Wars. So for about 250k it was the perfect game. For millions upon millions of Star Wars fans it was not.
You may have pretended to be a tailor in the Star Wars universe growing up, most of us were wielding light sabers and blasters trying to bring down a tyrannical evil overlord.
How devs pitched a mellow, downtime infused, complex crafting game centered not upon the high adventure of star wars but rather the mundane everyday existance in the background of the central plot line to George Lucas and succeeded is beyond my understanding.
You're missing something important here.
That is....you're comparing apples to oranges. A movie is designed to give you two hours of quick entertainment.
At the time that SWG was made, an MMORPG was designed to give you several YEARS of entertainment.
What the SWG devs tried to do was simply create the Star Wars universe....and let the players live in it...inwhatever way they chose.
No one was FORCED to be the "hero", the 'chosen one", or to only participate in "epic, exciting adventures".
The early MMORPGs created a world, and said "here, go live in it".
You didn't HAVE to craft. You could be a combat oriented player. But you had the CHOICE to do either...and more.
Yes, I agree. I am not missing anything important, I get it. You are missing something important - I think that what you described above is a stupid premise for the first Star Wars mmo. I believe that concept will not be attractive to the wide Star Wars IP fanbase. Guess what, I was right.
Assuming of course there actually is a wide Star Wars IP fanbase.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
First off, I was addressing a specific poster. Second off, to address you......just stop.
Yes, there are old-school virtual world games still around.....you know WHY they're still around?? Nothing new in that vein has been made. Don't try to tell me that they "aren't popular" when every day we read post after post and thread after thread on tehse very forums asking for such games....couple with the fact that, as we've already established...older virtual world games still exist, and still have players.
I know you would really LOVE to think that your opinion that virtual worlds "aren't viable" actually is a fact...but it's not, I'm sorry. It is your opinion, nothing more.
I'm sorry, also that you don't care for immersion in your games...but the vast majority of gamers I think would disagree with you on that point. I draw this conclusion from...once again...threads on this site, and others....as well as the millions of people playing Zelda, Oblivion, Fallout 3, The Witcher, Bioware Games, as well as countless other RPGs. IN fact, Bioware is pretty much counting on you being wrong with their development of TOR.
Enjoy playing your mindless button-mashers on your Xbox.
First off, you posted it in a public forum. If you wanted to address a specific individual, you should have sent it in a PM. Once you post it here, it's open game for anyone who wants to respond.
Secondly, yes there are "virtual world" games out there. Not many and certainly not successful, but they exist. So why aren't people playing them? If there are a million fans of those games, why don't those games have a million players? You act like anything said in these forums represents anything in the real world. The people who post here are the extremists, the fanatics, the vocal minority who really don't represent anything among the mainstream MMO players. All that counts in the real world are raw sub numbers. When the overwhelming majority of subs are going to non-virtual-world games, what are developers supposed to think?
Personally, I don't find any of those games to be particularly immersive, sorry. I mean, sure you can be immersed in just about any game. My wife and I sat down and were playing Lego Indiana Jones last night at about 9pm and before we knew it, it was 5am. Wow, we were immersed. That doesn't make Lego Indiana Jones a particularly immersive game design though.
And I don't own an Xbox, nor do I want one, but thanks.
And I quoted the poster I was replying to.
To address your second point however...the "virtual world" games out there are OLD. They are not only out-dated, but many of them have been nerfed and dumbed down in order to try to draw a portion of the new-skool MMO generation....driving away most of their original players in the process (NGE anyone??).
And NO, Raw sub numbers are not "all that counts". Fantastic games have been made by companies who make games simply for the joy of the craft....or make the game that THEY themselves want to play. This was how we were graced with games such as Doom, Quake, Call Of Duty, Battlefield 1942, Ultima Online, Morrowind, and countless other classics that made millions....without selling out or aiming for the widest possible audience. If the game is GOOD, people will play it.
My apologies about the Xbox thing...when you mentioned that you played Halo, I just assumed....forgetting that there was a PC version of the game.
On a side...minor things like waiting for a ship, shuttle, ferry, etc are not bad game design in a virtual world. They add one more bit of authenticity to the game....aiding in the suspension of disbelief. When the world feels more real, the game feels more immersive, and you're less likely to get bored in two months and come running to this forum complaining about how MMORPGs suck these days.
LOL .. asking the players to do NOTHING for 10 min is not bad game design??? We don't want games to be more "real". Should they require you to go to the bathroom and sit for 10 min every 5 hrs too? How is that for realism. People play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Oh no .. it won't take two months to get bored with a game that requires me to stand around for 10 min .. it will only take 10 min. I won't touch such a game with a 100 feet pole.
And btw, what is the problem with games entertaining a player for 2 months? That is 8 times the times a SP game (usuall about a week) will last. Nothing wrong with being entertained for 2 months and then moving on.
But we weren't doing "nothing" for 10 minutes. We'd socialise, trade, duel, buff, compare gear, and just hang out. It wasn't a race to get to the next quest objective in the quickest time possible so we could get that little bit of XP. We weren't in a hurry to get places. There was no "min/max" mentality.
Dude, I used to just sit on my front step at my house on tatooine and watch the suns set....just to enjoy the fact that I was living on Tatooine....in a galaxy made alive by game developers so that I could live the dream of existance in the Star Wars universe. I didn't want to be a hero, or the chosen one, or be uber. It was enough to be able to live there, and play there, and enjoy the world.
I don't expect ned-skool gamers to understand...becuase they never experienced it. They don't know what's been lost, and will never mourn it.
But let me just say that you don't know what you're missing.
Yes, there are old-school virtual world games still around.....you know WHY they're still around?? Nothing new in that vein has been made. Don't try to tell me that they "aren't popular" when every day we read post after post and thread after thread on tehse very forums asking for such games....couple with the fact that, as we've already established...older virtual world games still exist, and still have players.
I know you would really LOVE to think that your opinion that virtual worlds "aren't viable" actually is a fact...but it's not, I'm sorry. It is your opinion, nothing more.
I'm sorry, also that you don't care for immersion in your games...but the vast majority of gamers I think would disagree with you on that point. I draw this conclusion from...once again...threads on this site, and others....as well as the millions of people playing Zelda, Oblivion, Fallout 3, The Witcher, Bioware Games, as well as countless other RPGs. IN fact, Bioware is pretty much counting on you being wrong with their development of TOR.
Enjoy playing your mindless button-mashers on your Xbox.
Threads and posts from .. the same people. The vocal minority.
I don't think that it can be reasonably argued that virtual worlds are popular in comparison to structured games. One only has to look at the level of interest in titles such as AoC and WAR at launch and compare that to titles such as Darkfall and Mortal Online. Huge difference.
Still, I do think that you are right to say that virtual worlds can be viable .. the problem then becomes the developers (and the financiers behind them) who are unwilling to pour vast amounts of time and money into creating a product that has a chance of (at best) merely being viable. They're looking for hugely profitable, and that means aiming for the largest target audience.
Immersion is the most important quality that a game can have, but it's also a bit of an ethereal term; for some (yourself, seemingly) it refers to how believable a game setting is. For others (myself included) it's simply a measure of how fun the gameplay is, and how well a game can keep me playing and entertained. I can sit down with a Gameboy, turn on Tetris and suddenly find that 2 hours have passed. That's my definition of immersion.
Think it would be best to extrapolate on that "huge difference" too to show that the AoC and WAR were made by AAA comapnies where Darkfall and Mortal are not. Huge difference in the amount of money thrown at those games based on developer type. The amount of money spent on a title does affect the interest in the title.
And again, as I've said above. if a AAA effort was poured into a virtual world title. granting it all the pomp and circumstance given to themeparks, well, I believe it would do no worse than an AoC or a WAR and would have a reasonable shot at mirroring the success of an LOTRO. We'll never know, though, until one is actually made. And as someone else pointed out we haven't had one since 2003...7 years ago. I'm sure the genre could handle just 1 virtual world in comparison to how many TP/"just a game" MMOs that have shipped in the last 7 years.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
You prove there isn't. You can't, just as you say I can't (and yes, I don't have petitions so I can't, lol). That said, I'm not suggesting ALL developers make your type of game. I'm saying it would be nice to have al ittle more modern day made variety out there. If just ONE game was made and it flopped, then I'd have no issue saying to you and yours that you're right. I doubt I'd get the same response if one were made and it held 500,000 subscriptions, putting it ahead of most reported P2P games except LOTRO and WoW. And that sub total would make it just as profitable or moreso in certain situations.
Never understood why some folks have to have every single MMO that comes out made in their own preferred playstyle and jump at every chance to shout down people who express interest in wanting something different.
I don't have to, I'm not the one claiming that there are all these people. You are. Therefore the burden of proof rests solely on your shoulders. Certainly, if you can't back up your claims, there's no reason for developers to take you at all seriously.
Would it be nice to have more variety? Sure. But MMOs are a business, they exist to make money. Therefore in order to have the kind of variety you want to see, they have to know that there is a ready-made market for the game you're asking them to spend millions of dollars and years of their lives on. If you can't produce that, then why should they take you seriously?
Come on, a little common sense here would be nice.
Oh, the lack of common sense here isn't on my part, most certainly. One only has to look at the latest themepark offerings to see that. Neither do I care to argue for arguement's sake or just to "be right". Having worked a few years in workforce management and having a wife who does forecasting amongst other things for a global consulting firm (and who is an MMO gamer) it's very easy to see that there is a market, a sizeable one at that, for virtual world/sandbox gamers. Enough so for at least one company to give it a good effort and reap the rewards, which would be no less than what themeparks (sans WoW or maybe LOTRO) are making.
There are just some of you who can't stand to see one of those games happen for whatever irrational reason and so argue, again, for argument's sake.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
You prove there isn't. You can't, just as you say I can't (and yes, I don't have petitions so I can't, lol). That said, I'm not suggesting ALL developers make your type of game. I'm saying it would be nice to have al ittle more modern day made variety out there. If just ONE game was made and it flopped, then I'd have no issue saying to you and yours that you're right. I doubt I'd get the same response if one were made and it held 500,000 subscriptions, putting it ahead of most reported P2P games except LOTRO and WoW. And that sub total would make it just as profitable or moreso in certain situations.
Never understood why some folks have to have every single MMO that comes out made in their own preferred playstyle and jump at every chance to shout down people who express interest in wanting something different.
I don't have to, I'm not the one claiming that there are all these people. You are. Therefore the burden of proof rests solely on your shoulders. Certainly, if you can't back up your claims, there's no reason for developers to take you at all seriously.
Would it be nice to have more variety? Sure. But MMOs are a business, they exist to make money. Therefore in order to have the kind of variety you want to see, they have to know that there is a ready-made market for the game you're asking them to spend millions of dollars and years of their lives on. If you can't produce that, then why should they take you seriously?
Come on, a little common sense here would be nice.
Oh, the lack of common sense here isn't on my part, most certainly. One only has to look at the latest themepark offerings to see that. Neither do I care to argue for arguement's sake or just to "be right". Having worked a few years in workforce management and having a wife who does forecasting amongst other things for a global consulting firm (and who is an MMO gamer) it's very easy to see that there is a market, a sizeable one at that, for virtual world/sandbox gamers. Enough so for at least one company to give it a good effort and reap the rewards, which would be no less than what themeparks (sans WoW or maybe LOTRO) are making.
There are just some of you who can't stand to see one of those games happen for whatever irrational reason and so argue, again, for argument's sake.
I couldn't understand a word of your post over the Drizzt avatar -in an MMO forum, no less.
The slower paced worlds were more immersive. Being a small part of a big world, instead of zipping around a smaller world... This hatred of "downtime" only serves to make everything feel like you're rushing. There's no need to be up up up all the time. The goal isn't to fight as many enemies as possible per minute. Or min/max every single second. It's okay to relax while playing a game. Waiting for a ship to arrive gives you some time to catch your breath. There's nothing wrong with that.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
On a side...minor things like waiting for a ship, shuttle, ferry, etc are not bad game design in a virtual world. They add one more bit of authenticity to the game....aiding in the suspension of disbelief. When the world feels more real, the game feels more immersive, and you're less likely to get bored in two months and come running to this forum complaining about how MMORPGs suck these days.
LOL .. asking the players to do NOTHING for 10 min is not bad game design??? We don't want games to be more "real". Should they require you to go to the bathroom and sit for 10 min every 5 hrs too? How is that for realism. People play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Oh no .. it won't take two months to get bored with a game that requires me to stand around for 10 min .. it will only take 10 min. I won't touch such a game with a 100 feet pole.
And btw, what is the problem with games entertaining a player for 2 months? That is 8 times the times a SP game (usuall about a week) will last. Nothing wrong with being entertained for 2 months and then moving on.
Great for single player games, but MMORPG's are (or perhaps were) designed to bring in money over time, many years in fact. Maybe this is the new fate of MMO's to be quick hit games like single player ones to be 'one and done'd'
But as for the 10 minute waits you decry, you don't understand their real purpose, its not just to frustrate you, its to encourage you to socialize with the other folks waiting with you, because that's what MMORPG's are really all about, socialization.
I recall playing my first MMO (Lineage 1) and the only way new players could get off the starter island was a 10 minute boat ride. It was there I sat next to another new player and with nothing else to do we started chatting. We are still friends 10 years later.
I played WOW for over 18 monhts with its frantic, no down time game mechanics and I still know exactly....... zero people, while I'm still close friends with people from Lineage 1, DAOC and Lineage 2, but then those games had game mechanics like forced down time, encouraged grouping and the like that formed long term bonds between disparate strangers.
OK, none of this is for you, fine, go live in your solitary world, but for many of us, we want a return to the mechanics that made the early games great.
Kyle, don't believe it. These same people will try to argue that the thempark "game" crowd is the largest crowd which is why that should be the only way MMOs are made because MMOs are about making money and then they turn around and say it's "ok" for a MMO to go for a box sale and one extra month of sub?
No. If the game is about making money and that's what's important then companies should be wanting to find ways to keep people subscribed for the longest time possible. Especially since it'll be 4-5 years before they theoretically put out another MMO. 2 months isn't going to cut it. Just ignore the rhetoric from those that just hate virtual world style for their own, not necessarily rational, reasons.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
You prove there isn't. You can't, just as you say I can't (and yes, I don't have petitions so I can't, lol). That said, I'm not suggesting ALL developers make your type of game. I'm saying it would be nice to have al ittle more modern day made variety out there. If just ONE game was made and it flopped, then I'd have no issue saying to you and yours that you're right. I doubt I'd get the same response if one were made and it held 500,000 subscriptions, putting it ahead of most reported P2P games except LOTRO and WoW. And that sub total would make it just as profitable or moreso in certain situations.
Never understood why some folks have to have every single MMO that comes out made in their own preferred playstyle and jump at every chance to shout down people who express interest in wanting something different.
I don't have to, I'm not the one claiming that there are all these people. You are. Therefore the burden of proof rests solely on your shoulders. Certainly, if you can't back up your claims, there's no reason for developers to take you at all seriously.
Would it be nice to have more variety? Sure. But MMOs are a business, they exist to make money. Therefore in order to have the kind of variety you want to see, they have to know that there is a ready-made market for the game you're asking them to spend millions of dollars and years of their lives on. If you can't produce that, then why should they take you seriously?
Come on, a little common sense here would be nice.
Oh, the lack of common sense here isn't on my part, most certainly. One only has to look at the latest themepark offerings to see that. Neither do I care to argue for arguement's sake or just to "be right". Having worked a few years in workforce management and having a wife who does forecasting amongst other things for a global consulting firm (and who is an MMO gamer) it's very easy to see that there is a market, a sizeable one at that, for virtual world/sandbox gamers. Enough so for at least one company to give it a good effort and reap the rewards, which would be no less than what themeparks (sans WoW or maybe LOTRO) are making.
There are just some of you who can't stand to see one of those games happen for whatever irrational reason and so argue, again, for argument's sake.
I couldn't understand a word of your post over the Drizzt avatar -in an MMO forum, no less.
I've had this avatar pretty much since the day I signed up for these forums. And there's nothing wrong with a Drizzt avatar in an MMO forum, especially considering that his creator is involved with making an upcoming MMO.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I couldn't understand a word of your post over the Drizz
I've had this avatar pretty much since the day I signed up for these forums. And there's nothing wrong with a Drizzt avatar in an MMO forum, especially considering that his creator is involved with making an upcoming MMO.
My point was that people use as many kinds of alternate spellings of Drizzt in MMO's and it's frustrating to RPers.
The problem with the devs today is they basically have sold out the hardcore true fans of MMORPG's.. Nowadays its all about being the next WoW where the company can make billions of dollars of the consumer.. They understand there are far more stupid and dumb gamers out there than intelligent, intellectual, hardcore gamers that enjoy working hard within the game to achieve their goals...
Basically, the devs have decided it would be in their best interest to make the game as EEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ as possible for the stupid mindless FPS pew pew waa waa whinny gamers because there are so many of them and so few of the true hardcore fans of the MMORPG genre... It means more money for them and a crappy, easy, cookie cutting, instant everything I win single player mmo game for us...
My favorite MMORPG was Everquest. That game literally made me feel as If I was in my very own neverending Fantasy novel.. Heck, I even wrote some short stories based on some of my EQ gaming experiences in groups and raids...
Now, let me tell you a little story.. I have a cousin who is a diehard FPS gamer. He loves games like CS, Call of Duty, Halo, etc.. When I first started playing EQ, I told him about it and he tried it out.. A couple weeks later he finally maanged to get his Monk to level 20.. Within that week he became so sick of the game and began ranting like a little school girl over everything that frustrated him about EQ.. He said to me and I quote, "I wish the game wasn't so GD hard!!! Death penalties are so stupid, corpse runs are ridiculous, and I hate all this mindless traveling. I just want to sit in a nice spot and level. When I die, I wish there was a way you could automatically get your corpse because running after your corpse and traveling all over the place takes to much time and it sucks! I can't play this game anymore because it's just to hard" He then began to laugh and make fun of EQ stating that gamer's don't care about their dumb story and exploring a bunch of stupid areas just to get to a new hunting area..
My cousin has no business playing MMORPG's.. And niether do most of those who are FPS gamers..
Now, doesn't that sound familiar with FPS gamers turned MMO gamers of yesterday and today??!?! I must have met dozens of people over the years who feel the same way as he did regarding the time sink of classic MMORPG's like EQ, DAOC, and SWG.. Heck, even Vanguard reminded me alot like the original EQ...
That's the problem with MMORPG's of today. The Dev's cater to impatient, whinny, immature, illiterate, FPS MMO hybrid gamers and create a dumb down EEEZZZ mode cookie cutting pile of garbage for an MMO because there are simply more stupid gamers than intelligent ones...
But guess what? ALL OF THOSE overhyped GAMES like Aoc and WAR have failed miserably simply because the devs rolled the dice and tried to mix fps elements with mmo elements to hopefully please FPS gamers and MMO vets... Well, so far they have stuck out looking dumbfounded...
I'm not sure we'll ever see a legendary MMORPG like the original Everquest and even one like SWG pre NGE... Why? Well because these game companies are all about making the quick benjamins and will cater to those who want a FPS I win character who can WTFPWN everything as quickly as possible because it's all those kinds of gamers know how to do from their mindless fps pew pew your dead games........
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I couldn't understand a word of your post over the Drizz
I've had this avatar pretty much since the day I signed up for these forums. And there's nothing wrong with a Drizzt avatar in an MMO forum, especially considering that his creator is involved with making an upcoming MMO.
My point was that people use as many kinds of alternate spellings of Drizzt in MMO's and it's frustrating to RPers.
What's this MMO's he's working on?
I don't see what your point has to do with the topic at hand but ok.
R.A.Salvatore is part of the 38 Studios team working on an MMO called "Copernicus" for now. Hopefully we'll findout the real name at E3 this year and some info about the world. Salvatore is creating the lore of the world.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Isn't the "virtual world" largely in your head? It makes sense to me, since the actual graphics and such of games have improved alot. They should help you to create your own "virtual World" with your imagination, no?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I don't see what your point has to do with the topic at hand but ok.
R.A.Salvatore is part of the 38 Studios team working on an MMO called "Copernicus" for now. Hopefully we'll findout the real name at E3 this year and some info about the world. Salvatore is creating the lore of the world.
I heard about that.. Didn't Curt Schilling hire him? I'm actually looking forward in hearing more about that MMORPG.. R.A Salvatore is one of my favorite writers. I've read most of the Drizzt novels and the man really has a talent in creating admirable characters and awesome battle scenes...
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I don't see what your point has to do with the topic at hand but ok.
R.A.Salvatore is part of the 38 Studios team working on an MMO called "Copernicus" for now. Hopefully we'll findout the real name at E3 this year and some info about the world. Salvatore is creating the lore of the world.
I heard about that.. Didn't Curt Schilling hire him? I'm actually looking forward in hearing more about that MMORPG.. R.A Salvatore is one of my favorite writers. I've read most of the Drizzt novels and the man really has a talent in creating admirable characters and awesome battle scenes...
I'm not 100% sure that Curt did the hiring but I imagine he was invloved, hehe. Also brought on Todd McFarlane (Spawn creator) for art direction.
Copernicus, FFXIV and World of Darkness Online are the only three games I'm looking forward to. FFXIV just to cross off having played a FF MMO of my to do list and the other two because I'm hopeful they will be more like virtual worlds than themeparks.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Comments
I don't have to, I'm not the one claiming that there are all these people. You are. Therefore the burden of proof rests solely on your shoulders. Certainly, if you can't back up your claims, there's no reason for developers to take you at all seriously.
Would it be nice to have more variety? Sure. But MMOs are a business, they exist to make money. Therefore in order to have the kind of variety you want to see, they have to know that there is a ready-made market for the game you're asking them to spend millions of dollars and years of their lives on. If you can't produce that, then why should they take you seriously?
Come on, a little common sense here would be nice.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You didn't join a guild? .. or any groups? .. didn't add a single person to your friends list? .. didn't chat during one of the very "down time game mechanics" whose existence you deny in WoW? (Flights, Boats, Corpse Running, Rebuffing, Eating/Drinking etc)
I can usually see the logic in your posts, despite them coming from a viewpoint that is often diametrically opposed to my own; but this statement just smacks of blatant WoW bashing.
It's either a complete fabrication (my instinct is that this is so) or calls into question your veracity when claiming that you play MMOs for the socialisation.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
First off, you posted it in a public forum. If you wanted to address a specific individual, you should have sent it in a PM. Once you post it here, it's open game for anyone who wants to respond.
Secondly, yes there are "virtual world" games out there. Not many and certainly not successful, but they exist. So why aren't people playing them? If there are a million fans of those games, why don't those games have a million players? You act like anything said in these forums represents anything in the real world. The people who post here are the extremists, the fanatics, the vocal minority who really don't represent anything among the mainstream MMO players. All that counts in the real world are raw sub numbers. When the overwhelming majority of subs are going to non-virtual-world games, what are developers supposed to think?
Personally, I don't find any of those games to be particularly immersive, sorry. I mean, sure you can be immersed in just about any game. My wife and I sat down and were playing Lego Indiana Jones last night at about 9pm and before we knew it, it was 5am. Wow, we were immersed. That doesn't make Lego Indiana Jones a particularly immersive game design though.
And I don't own an Xbox, nor do I want one, but thanks.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
It's funny how people always declare "this is what MMORPG's are really all about". What they're really all about is making money for the developers. They do that by getting the consumer to keep paying their monthly sub fee over and over, forever if possible. One of the ways they do that is by offering mindless carrot-and-stick grinds and pointless time wasters, like standing around waiting for a shuttle. The more time you stand there slack-jawed, the more monthly fees you cough up and the more money they make.
MMOs are not "really all about" socialization, grouping, gear-whoring, end-game-rushing or anything else. They're about paying a developer for entertainment. Don't kid yourself and think otherwise.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I think it's a game design that definitley had its place but just didn't wear well over time.
In the past what people would do was socialize, maybe duel or of course if the game had a more pvp bent then they were open to attack.
I do think it worked for the time it was in.
As an example, Lineage 2 was my first game. when i was faced with using a boat and waiting for it, it didn't seem out of place. and all that I mentioned above would happen.
Now, several years have gone by, I resubbed to Lineage 2 for nostalgia reasons and went to use a boat. While waiting on the dock with my ticket I couldn't help but feel how novel the whole experience was.
But the thing about such experiences is that they can vary depending on the circumstances.
Let's say I only have an hour to play. And I need to keep going back to the guild hall for buffs. All that travel time to that island then becomes playing the "waiting" game.
Which can be about as much fun as the "line" ride.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yeah, I definately see why they remove alot of things like "waiting" from games. Lets face it, the majority of people don't have time to wait or are too impatient. Myself? I liked waiting for shuttles and boats. Well, that's not the whole truth ... I tried like hell to get to the shuttle or boat before it took off. However, i miss the interaction with people while you waited or the wars that broke out in SWG. It seems like the immersion and community have been taken out of most mmorpgs, and that is what makes these newer ones just a "game". Community now consists of being an obnoxious douche bag to the whole server, while good deeds and good behavior go unrewarded and unnoticed.
I'd also add that the players who were the early adopters to these online games were just built a bit differently and were more inclined to be social in these games.
what has happened is that the audience for these games has opened up and and the people who are not inclined to be social in a video game, at least how the early players were, have sort of diluted the playerbase.
I'll be honest, I'm not incredibly social in these games except for some friends I met in Lineage 2 or if some player asks a question that I can answer.
Part of that is that I'm just so much more social in "real life" but part of that is that I'm just not the type of person to strike up a conversation while waiting for transport. In game OR in real life.
for me, social interaction has to be natural and organic. And my sense is that people who are coming to these games now that they are more popular have a different sense of being social.
If games stayed exactly the same as they were in the UO, or SWG or EQ days I imagine there would be some more people but not the numbers we have now.
And of course there are people who would be fine with that. I'm not sure how that would have affected the industry though. Would the choices of games stay low because there just wouldn't be a population to support more?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Virtual Worlds are not just dead, ALL MMORPGS ARE DEAD.
WoW has proven one thing, the MMORPG market is a niche and nothing more. We have had countless WoW clones out there, countless games that copy the mechinics and style of WoW and guess what? They are all failures.
Why? Because WoW's success has nothing to do with design or mechnics, WoW's success is for the same reason teens buy their clothes, branding. WoW has one thing WoW clones will never have, the WoW brand. It is that simple.
We go on here debating the merits of themeparks or sandboxes or whatever, well guess what? That is a meaningless debate. No MMORPG will ever approach the popularity of WoW because WoW has the brand and that is it. By the old, "what's more popular argument, sandboxes or themeparks?" The answer is WoW, nothing more nothing less.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
To suggest that people are still playing a game 6 years down the line purely because of "the brand" defies any sense of logic or common sense.
It's not as if there's a shortage of MMOs out at the moment.
People are playing WoW because they find the game to be more fun than the alternatives.
Recent themeparks have failed because they were crappy games.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yes, I agree. I am not missing anything important, I get it. You are missing something important - I think that what you described above is a stupid premise for the first Star Wars mmo. I believe that concept will not be attractive to the wide Star Wars IP fanbase. Guess what, I was right.
Assuming of course there actually is a wide Star Wars IP fanbase.
We may have all outgrown it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And I quoted the poster I was replying to.
To address your second point however...the "virtual world" games out there are OLD. They are not only out-dated, but many of them have been nerfed and dumbed down in order to try to draw a portion of the new-skool MMO generation....driving away most of their original players in the process (NGE anyone??).
And NO, Raw sub numbers are not "all that counts". Fantastic games have been made by companies who make games simply for the joy of the craft....or make the game that THEY themselves want to play. This was how we were graced with games such as Doom, Quake, Call Of Duty, Battlefield 1942, Ultima Online, Morrowind, and countless other classics that made millions....without selling out or aiming for the widest possible audience. If the game is GOOD, people will play it.
My apologies about the Xbox thing...when you mentioned that you played Halo, I just assumed....forgetting that there was a PC version of the game.
But we weren't doing "nothing" for 10 minutes. We'd socialise, trade, duel, buff, compare gear, and just hang out. It wasn't a race to get to the next quest objective in the quickest time possible so we could get that little bit of XP. We weren't in a hurry to get places. There was no "min/max" mentality.
Dude, I used to just sit on my front step at my house on tatooine and watch the suns set....just to enjoy the fact that I was living on Tatooine....in a galaxy made alive by game developers so that I could live the dream of existance in the Star Wars universe. I didn't want to be a hero, or the chosen one, or be uber. It was enough to be able to live there, and play there, and enjoy the world.
I don't expect ned-skool gamers to understand...becuase they never experienced it. They don't know what's been lost, and will never mourn it.
But let me just say that you don't know what you're missing.
Think it would be best to extrapolate on that "huge difference" too to show that the AoC and WAR were made by AAA comapnies where Darkfall and Mortal are not. Huge difference in the amount of money thrown at those games based on developer type. The amount of money spent on a title does affect the interest in the title.
And again, as I've said above. if a AAA effort was poured into a virtual world title. granting it all the pomp and circumstance given to themeparks, well, I believe it would do no worse than an AoC or a WAR and would have a reasonable shot at mirroring the success of an LOTRO. We'll never know, though, until one is actually made. And as someone else pointed out we haven't had one since 2003...7 years ago. I'm sure the genre could handle just 1 virtual world in comparison to how many TP/"just a game" MMOs that have shipped in the last 7 years.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Oh, the lack of common sense here isn't on my part, most certainly. One only has to look at the latest themepark offerings to see that. Neither do I care to argue for arguement's sake or just to "be right". Having worked a few years in workforce management and having a wife who does forecasting amongst other things for a global consulting firm (and who is an MMO gamer) it's very easy to see that there is a market, a sizeable one at that, for virtual world/sandbox gamers. Enough so for at least one company to give it a good effort and reap the rewards, which would be no less than what themeparks (sans WoW or maybe LOTRO) are making.
There are just some of you who can't stand to see one of those games happen for whatever irrational reason and so argue, again, for argument's sake.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I couldn't understand a word of your post over the Drizzt avatar -in an MMO forum, no less.
The slower paced worlds were more immersive. Being a small part of a big world, instead of zipping around a smaller world... This hatred of "downtime" only serves to make everything feel like you're rushing. There's no need to be up up up all the time. The goal isn't to fight as many enemies as possible per minute. Or min/max every single second. It's okay to relax while playing a game. Waiting for a ship to arrive gives you some time to catch your breath. There's nothing wrong with that.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Kyle, don't believe it. These same people will try to argue that the thempark "game" crowd is the largest crowd which is why that should be the only way MMOs are made because MMOs are about making money and then they turn around and say it's "ok" for a MMO to go for a box sale and one extra month of sub?
No. If the game is about making money and that's what's important then companies should be wanting to find ways to keep people subscribed for the longest time possible. Especially since it'll be 4-5 years before they theoretically put out another MMO. 2 months isn't going to cut it. Just ignore the rhetoric from those that just hate virtual world style for their own, not necessarily rational, reasons.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I've had this avatar pretty much since the day I signed up for these forums. And there's nothing wrong with a Drizzt avatar in an MMO forum, especially considering that his creator is involved with making an upcoming MMO.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
My point was that people use as many kinds of alternate spellings of Drizzt in MMO's and it's frustrating to RPers.
What's this MMO's he's working on?
Varny, I couldn't have said it better myself...
The problem with the devs today is they basically have sold out the hardcore true fans of MMORPG's.. Nowadays its all about being the next WoW where the company can make billions of dollars of the consumer.. They understand there are far more stupid and dumb gamers out there than intelligent, intellectual, hardcore gamers that enjoy working hard within the game to achieve their goals...
Basically, the devs have decided it would be in their best interest to make the game as EEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ as possible for the stupid mindless FPS pew pew waa waa whinny gamers because there are so many of them and so few of the true hardcore fans of the MMORPG genre... It means more money for them and a crappy, easy, cookie cutting, instant everything I win single player mmo game for us...
My favorite MMORPG was Everquest. That game literally made me feel as If I was in my very own neverending Fantasy novel.. Heck, I even wrote some short stories based on some of my EQ gaming experiences in groups and raids...
Now, let me tell you a little story.. I have a cousin who is a diehard FPS gamer. He loves games like CS, Call of Duty, Halo, etc.. When I first started playing EQ, I told him about it and he tried it out.. A couple weeks later he finally maanged to get his Monk to level 20.. Within that week he became so sick of the game and began ranting like a little school girl over everything that frustrated him about EQ.. He said to me and I quote, "I wish the game wasn't so GD hard!!! Death penalties are so stupid, corpse runs are ridiculous, and I hate all this mindless traveling. I just want to sit in a nice spot and level. When I die, I wish there was a way you could automatically get your corpse because running after your corpse and traveling all over the place takes to much time and it sucks! I can't play this game anymore because it's just to hard" He then began to laugh and make fun of EQ stating that gamer's don't care about their dumb story and exploring a bunch of stupid areas just to get to a new hunting area..
My cousin has no business playing MMORPG's.. And niether do most of those who are FPS gamers..
Now, doesn't that sound familiar with FPS gamers turned MMO gamers of yesterday and today??!?! I must have met dozens of people over the years who feel the same way as he did regarding the time sink of classic MMORPG's like EQ, DAOC, and SWG.. Heck, even Vanguard reminded me alot like the original EQ...
That's the problem with MMORPG's of today. The Dev's cater to impatient, whinny, immature, illiterate, FPS MMO hybrid gamers and create a dumb down EEEZZZ mode cookie cutting pile of garbage for an MMO because there are simply more stupid gamers than intelligent ones...
But guess what? ALL OF THOSE overhyped GAMES like Aoc and WAR have failed miserably simply because the devs rolled the dice and tried to mix fps elements with mmo elements to hopefully please FPS gamers and MMO vets... Well, so far they have stuck out looking dumbfounded...
I'm not sure we'll ever see a legendary MMORPG like the original Everquest and even one like SWG pre NGE... Why? Well because these game companies are all about making the quick benjamins and will cater to those who want a FPS I win character who can WTFPWN everything as quickly as possible because it's all those kinds of gamers know how to do from their mindless fps pew pew your dead games........
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I don't see what your point has to do with the topic at hand but ok.
R.A.Salvatore is part of the 38 Studios team working on an MMO called "Copernicus" for now. Hopefully we'll findout the real name at E3 this year and some info about the world. Salvatore is creating the lore of the world.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Isn't the "virtual world" largely in your head? It makes sense to me, since the actual graphics and such of games have improved alot. They should help you to create your own "virtual World" with your imagination, no?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I heard about that.. Didn't Curt Schilling hire him? I'm actually looking forward in hearing more about that MMORPG.. R.A Salvatore is one of my favorite writers. I've read most of the Drizzt novels and the man really has a talent in creating admirable characters and awesome battle scenes...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I'm not 100% sure that Curt did the hiring but I imagine he was invloved, hehe. Also brought on Todd McFarlane (Spawn creator) for art direction.
Copernicus, FFXIV and World of Darkness Online are the only three games I'm looking forward to. FFXIV just to cross off having played a FF MMO of my to do list and the other two because I'm hopeful they will be more like virtual worlds than themeparks.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez