Best online experience I ever had was a MUD with eventual perma death. Keeping in mind the pvp was 90% chase. And a good pvp fight could last hours. And enforced RP and you hand an epic game with monumental pvp battles. Players who became legends because they could take on 5 people at once consistently while playing a underpowered class. No MMO has ever matched the awesomeness of this MUD. And if you've never been in a two hour one on one pvp fight with your hands shaking and your heard beating faster, you will never know what I'm talking about. Not if you don't have perma death.
Nobodys stoping you from making your own Harsh DP in a game, so why push that on others. for instance, take WoW again. Who stoping you from deleteing your epics each time you die? Wouldnt that be hardcore for you? Who stoping you from doing that? [Mod Edit]
Are you really that dense? We don't give a damn about WoW. Most of us don't even play it and have no intention of changing it. Were saying "give us a game that WE could play". We never asked you to come along. I think you need to improve your reading comprehension... or get out more.
Why do you feel the need to be included in everything. You're the one making it out as if we want you to die with us when really what we're saying is "get the hell out and leave us alone" especially since we're not even in your game.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I think it needs to be broken down a little more for people to understand. I think the big thing people are forgetting is that we are comparing apples to oranges here. Games with no DP have hard game play to get your gear. Some people like to sit there and do raids all day to get that one peice of gear to complete there set and they spend weeks getting it, like in WoW. The difference is that games like Darkfall do not make you spend tons of time getting gear. There is expensive gear and it gives you a little advantage but it is not like if you lose it you lose 4 weeks of time finding it. You probably crafted it yourself and can make another with a good 2 hours of time.
Some gamers like to look cool and have permanent progress they are judged by there items and how they look. Other gamers care more about the thrill of putting it all on the line.
THESE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF GAMES!
WoW players do not understand Darkfall players and vice versa. No one way is right. But I will say one fanboy comment. I pay a lot more attention when im doing stupid stuff in darkfall, like mining, even banking is exciting not know if your loot is going to be scrapped off your dead body for just trying to bank some wood. In games like WoW, I could bank without thinking and mining never really brought me a rush. If I died...well thank you for not making me have to walk as far to bank my crude.DF players just perfer everything be risky instead of very small moments of gameplay being exciting.
Either way both games can be hard in different ways. saying a harsh DP does not make a game hard is just kinda short sighted. If you lost your epic gear then you would have to find it again or kill the guy that took it from you. thats intense, and dare I say... could be hard to get that gear back.... What is hard to you?
Nobodys stoping you from making your own Harsh DP in a game, so why push that on others. for instance, take WoW again. Who stoping you from deleteing your epics each time you die? Wouldnt that be hardcore for you? Who stoping you from doing that? [Mod Edit]
Are you really that dense? We don't give a damn about WoW. Most of us don't even play it and have no intention of changing it. Were saying "give us a game that WE could play". We never asked you to come along. I think you need to improve your reading comprehension... or get out more.
Why do you feel the need to be included in everything. You're the one making it out as if we want you to die with us when really what we're saying is "get the hell out and leave us alone" especially since we're not even in your game.
Can't agree more, and as I stated in my previous post that "Pro Death-Penality" are not the ones pushing their opinions onto others and rather the complete opposite where, as shown by OP's first post, he attempts to force his opinion on others claiming that Pro Death-Penality are wrong, it's a bad idea and that they should get out of the MMO Scene (I exaggerated this part, but you get the point)
Funny thing is that he named WoW, which was never designed with a Harsh Death Penality in mind, and then tries to "prove something" by suggesting a Harsh Death Penality in WoW. This is beyond bias.
As shown by many other posters in this thread, the "Pro Death-Penality" are in for the challenge and actually using their brains. That's how they/we have fun. Not everyone shares the same opinion and prefer a formula similar to WoW, while we prefer a different formula like UO, AC, or (name your game with a harsh death penality here). In no way are we forcing our opinions on other when we ask for more games to catter to our audience and to request more challenge, that's how we have fun in Gaming in general.
What is seen as an annoyance by the WoW-like crowd is seen as a chance to improve themselves by the "Pro Death-Penality" crowd. Neither of these sides will understand each others, the mentality is too different. The OP simply refuses to understand this fact and does exactly what he accuses the HDP crowd of doing, which is to force their opinions on others.
While I agree with the idea behind your post, I don't think DarkFall was the right exemple. The death penality in DarkFall is, in my opinion, a joke. Most players have a stack of armors in their bank and dying doesn't mean much at all. Dying is more of a "ah...too bad, *put on a new armor*".
There are other games that had "better" death penality such as EQ as mentionned by another users, which I can't seem to find.....
Lets imagine that you die in real life when you die in game.
ok ,theres no game out what is worth dying,atleast yet.
point is when game is so high quality that you can start risking your virtual life and lose something when you die,then death penaltys are just good ad to the realism.
but first we need a game wheres so good to live that its worth dying,even a bit dying,miniying.
maybe Ultima Online 3 in a year 2200 is so good,who knows.
OP has entirely missed the point of Harsh Death Penalty. The point is to encourage better gameplay among players so they AVOID dying. Avoiding death in a game with a harsh death penalty enhances both fun and immersion.
Without a harsh death penalty, you will never experience the atmosphere a dungeon is supposed to convey. Dungeons are scary in games with harsh death penalties, just as they would be scary if you really were in one.
I do not believe that death penalties are a huge problem. The game that I play, Ryzom. enforces a death penalty. The death penalty in that game increases as you fight stronger creatures and grow stronger yoruself. The thing is, by killing creatures or by performing actions such as foraging or crafting you find it easy to get rid of your death penalty without much real effort. If you want to play a game and play it well then you have to accept the death penalty and learn from it.
I rather get the impression that the OP is like those people who dont like rock music/pr0n/eating meat/dangerous sports. It's not enough for them to simply avoid those things, they want everyone else to avoid them too.
In short, he's confused his personal preference with a moral imperative
People always overlook the economical perspective in these discussions... full/part loot pvp is a great way to rotate items, combined with durability and weapons that actually break forever this is a key-stone in any good economy. A mmorpg without a good economy isn't a real mmorpg.
In many threads here, you see people talking about "skill", but what is it really? Is it the careful choreography of mousclicks and button presses in order to come out the winner? Where does strategy fit in, and to stretch this to even more ridiculous specificity, how does one define "strategy" in a MMO?
With a harsh death penalty, you have to prepare for contingency and make some decisions. You don't blindly go into a fight, then spend the first 5 minutes of your sudden death telling your buddies "LOL I died. Rez pls?" No. You consider the goal. You weigh your character's abilities and gear against your opponent's. You figure out whether you have the ability to brute-force your way to victory, or if you need to augment with a ready supply of health and/or mana potions. You make that all-important decion: "Is the outcome worth it at this time? Should I wait until I'm more capable?" You don't spend your time aimlessly skipping through some high-risk area. If you do decide to venture into someplace dangerous for your level and abilities, you take a more cautious approach. If aggro in the game is determined by line of sight, you plot a stealthy path through. Otherwise, you weave your way around, carefully avoiding range.
Some of us enjoy this type of challenge. As stated many times before, it does make you a better player. A more strategic, tactical player with improved skills that go well beyond how tight your cast/attack rotation is.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I enjoyed reading through this thread and seeing all well thought out responses completely ignored by the original poster. Nothing i can add to this thread that has not already been said at least pertaining to this topic.
In many threads here, you see people talking about "skill", but what is it really? Is it the careful choreography of mousclicks and button presses in order to come out the winner? Where does strategy fit in, and to stretch this to even more ridiculous specificity, how does one define "strategy" in a MMO?
With a harsh death penalty, you have to prepare for contingency and make some decisions. You don't blindly go into a fight, then spend the first 5 minutes of your sudden death telling your buddies "LOL I died. Rez pls?" No. You consider the goal. You weigh your character's abilities and gear against your opponent's. You figure out whether you have the ability to brute-force your way to victory, or if you need to augment with a ready supply of health and/or mana potions. You make that all-important decion: "Is the outcome worth it at this time? Should I wait until I'm more capable?" You don't spend your time aimlessly skipping through some high-risk area. If you do decide to venture into someplace dangerous for your level and abilities, you take a more cautious approach. If aggro in the game is determined by line of sight, you plot a stealthy path through. Otherwise, you weave your way around, carefully avoiding range.
Some of us enjoy this type of challenge. As stated many times before, it does make you a better player. A more strategic, tactical player with improved skills that go well beyond how tight your cast/attack rotation is.
Theres a big hole in your little concept there. You assume people don't bother to do all the things you just mentioned unless you get a knee to the groin;) Guess what? Many people do all things REGARDLESS, because harsh death penalty or not, we go into ANY encounter/situation prepared.
AGAIN, whats wrong with YOU deleting gear or dropping gold if YOU die, while letting the next guy just have a 5 minute walk? How does his lack of a harsh penalty effect YOU? Do you play all single player games on easy mode because you know others can, or do you play on HARD because playing on hard is fun for YOU. Me, I play all games on the harder difficulty because I don't care what other people do. But a harsh DP in a MMO does NOT make the game harder at all. All it does is add trivial, wasted TIME to my failures which is NOT productive, NOT fun and doesn't make me play better or make the actual battles any more difficult. I play the best I can regardless, because playing the best is whats fun. Success through lack of failure is fun. Failing over and over again is NOT fun. Making me waste another hour of my time each time I fail, is ONLY fun for people who place no value at all on the time wasted.
Its quite obvious. People with lives and responsibility understand the pointlessness of the harsh DP and don't need the game to force them to play better. They're risen above the need to twiddle their thumbs to feel a sense of urgency. You actually find joy in farming for gold to recoup the costs of a death or grinding another 100 mobs to recoup the EXP you lost? REALLY? Honestly? Thats challenging?
Those still in school or with no responsibility need the game to force them to play better. They won't do it on their own it seems. They apparently don't have the personal will to just play better. Its all simple maturity when it comes down to it. With a little life experience, you gain a better understanding of whats important. Pointlessly REPLAYING the time you lost in a videogame eventually takes second fiddle. In time some of you will understand=)
Nobodys stoping you from making your own Harsh DP in a game, so why push that on others. for instance, take WoW again. Who stoping you from deleteing your epics each time you die? Wouldnt that be hardcore for you? Who stoping you from doing that? [Mod Edit]
Dp can also be used as a motivation in a game.
What fun is it if your the only one losing items?
For some people the whole harsh Dp is the reason they play.
Honestly you wouldn't be asking these questions if you got into these types of games.
To truly understand this type of player base you need to do more than run trials, get ganked and cry on forums.
I think it depends alot on the type of game. For instance, in a MMOFPS (i.e. CoD, Halo, etc.), I don't really feel that a death penalty is really needed. However, in a MMORPG, I do think that a decent death penalty is needed. Without a healthy fear of dying, there is less emotional investment in the game. In a MMORPG, there really must be consequences to actions and risk, especially in a more non-competative environment (PVE).
The fact that a lot of people really despise the death penalty shows that it is doing its job. You are suppose to hate it. It forces you to avoid dying.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
When I die in most single-player games, I can simply reload from my last saved point; usually fully healthy. I want the same out of my MMOs. My ideal 'death penalty' for an MMO would be to respawn, fully healthy, at the very nearest safe spot, as many times as I want. I can accept a small gear penalty, but anything more bugs me.
Many people say Wow's death penalty is meaningless. My feeling is that, especially inside of instances, the death penalty is brutal. That long run back to the instance and possibly through respawns is extremely harsh, IMO.
With a harsh death penalty, you have to prepare for contingency and make some decisions. You don't blindly go into a fight, then spend the first 5 minutes of your sudden death telling your buddies "LOL I died. Rez pls?" No. You consider the goal. You weigh your character's abilities and gear against your opponent's. You figure out whether you have the ability to brute-force your way to victory, or if you need to augment with a ready supply of health and/or mana potions. You make that all-important decion: "Is the outcome worth it at this time? Should I wait until I'm more capable?" You don't spend your time aimlessly skipping through some high-risk area. If you do decide to venture into someplace dangerous for your level and abilities, you take a more cautious approach. If aggro in the game is determined by line of sight, you plot a stealthy path through. Otherwise, you weave your way around, carefully avoiding range.
Some of us enjoy this type of challenge. As stated many times before, it does make you a better player. A more strategic, tactical player with improved skills that go well beyond how tight your cast/attack rotation is.
What you have described is simply a well designed game. Such a game does not need harsh death penalties since the player will not succeed in the game if he/she does play 'smart'. In such a game the player will not advance if they do not prepare ahead of time, know their limitations and use proper tactics and strategy. In a well designed games harsh death penalties mean that players will overcompensate and try to trivialize the challenges whenever possible.
All you are really arguing is that in badly designed games death penalties train better players.
I said this before and I will say it again here for you DP complainers. STOP F'ing sucking and dying every 5 minutes and a death penalty isn't a factor. Thier should always be something in a game to discourage zerging a quest or pvp fight down. If you had no DP in games like Aion, Warhammer, thier be a total exodus of subscription even wow has a DP a cheesey one but its there. Watching some of you complain about a dp from dying is funny. You apparently have been dying too much because you decided to Leroy Jenkins 5 people hoping to kill one person. Now you wanna complain you gotta wait 3 minutes to recover from your ridiculous move. What a DP is designed to do in every game its in is to encourage you to (PLAY) better not be a zealot running to your death with no recourse. You don't want things like that play console games with a million do overs when you fail at playing something.
It will never EVER be not in MMORPG any game that does not have it sooner or later does incorporate in. Because it's a really bad game design to not have it in. And any real gamers will not respect or play the game thus game super fail. Look at Star Trek online with all its super fail. Look at its main forums what the main complaint is next to no end game. In all the polls in majority of the arguments yelling at the company. Is people saying its too damn easy because thiers no penalty from dying. Hell every mission and thing in that game you can practically throw your ship at the enemy blow yourself up. Then res and come right back until you whittle down the opponent. Thats not game play or a fact of less frustration thats f'ing hello kitty in space. Hell I think hello kitty online has a Dp of some sort. STFU dp whiners stop sucking learn to play without dying every 10 minutes. And stop coming here complaining about good game design that makes you learn how to play and not how to die and zerg like a noob.
Is it a group of players in a PvP area at the same time.
So that once again brings up my original argument that HDP reduces the PvP player base, basically reducing the number in LARGE SCALE PvP.
In a game like DF were gear means little, what difference would losing gear be on death. that isnt the harshness. But in a game where gear means something, and you bascially lose everything, then we have a problem.
What if in DF, each time you died, you lost all your developed skills and you gear as well,, that would be a harsh DP wouldnt it.
----
Another thing. Why do you need other player around you to suffer from HDP if, like the Pro-HDP people siad earier in the thread, that you enjoy HDP for the rush.
So what good would DP on others have on you? Like I said,,, nobody is stoping you from deleting your own epic gear or deleting your characters each time you die.
You say that you arent applying HDP on others, but then you turn around and say HDP has no rush unless if effects others.
Define ZERG. Is it a group of players in a PvP area at the same time. So that once again brings up my original argument that HDP reduces the PvP player base, basically reducing the number in LARGE SCALE PvP. In a game like DF were gear means little, what difference would losing gear be on death. that isnt the harshness. But in a game where gear means something, and you bascially lose everything, then we have a problem. What if in DF, each time you died, you lost all your developed skills and you gear as well,, that would be a harsh DP wouldnt it. ---- Another thing. Why do you need other player around you to suffer from HDP if, like the Pro-HDP people siad earier in the thread, that you enjoy HDP for the rush. So what good would DP on others have on you? Like I said,,, nobody is stoping you from deleting your own epic gear or deleting your characters each time you die. You say that you arent applying HDP on others, but then you turn around and say HDP has no rush unless if effects others.
That's because HDP does have no rush unless if effects others.
Sure.. I can delete my char everytime I die, but no one else is, so why the hell should I?
I'll stick to EVE.
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
In a game like DF were gear means little, what difference would losing gear be on death. that isnt the harshness. But in a game where gear means something, and you bascially lose everything, then we have a problem. What if in DF, each time you died, you lost all your developed skills and you gear as well,, that would be a harsh DP wouldnt it. ----
This is the thing why we need better Role Playing Games.
Where for example you and your friend are wearing precious dragon armours,full sets,and someone show up and kills both of you,BUT,he can full loot your bodies,but he just cant carry 3 armour sets because those are a bit too heavy,u know,or he cant delete those either because,hes teeths are not strong enough.and so on.
Define ZERG. Is it a group of players in a PvP area at the same time. So that once again brings up my original argument that HDP reduces the PvP player base, basically reducing the number in LARGE SCALE PvP. In a game like DF were gear means little, what difference would losing gear be on death. that isnt the harshness. But in a game where gear means something, and you bascially lose everything, then we have a problem. What if in DF, each time you died, you lost all your developed skills and you gear as well,, that would be a harsh DP wouldnt it. ---- Another thing. Why do you need other player around you to suffer from HDP if, like the Pro-HDP people siad earier in the thread, that you enjoy HDP for the rush. So what good would DP on others have on you? Like I said,,, nobody is stoping you from deleting your own epic gear or deleting your characters each time you die. You say that you arent applying HDP on others, but then you turn around and say HDP has no rush unless if effects others.
Do you intentionally not read posts? We've already told you some people enjoy making people lose shit. Its one of the motivators.
Also who told you gear meant nothing in DF? Sure early on its trivial but overall if gear meant nothing people wouldn't bother crafting.
Oh and certain games do skill loss, eve as an example if you don't update your clone or if you get blown up in T3 ships you lose skills.
Originally posted by tro44_1 Originally posted by Garvon3 You've missed the point of a harsh death penalty. It's not to make the game hard, it's to suck you into the game more. When you have more invested in the game, every encounter is much more intense and meaningful. It also ties in with risk vs reward. You more you risk, the better your reward may be, so while you're taking that risk you're on the edge of your seat.
An MMO hasn't kept me on the edge of my seat since 2003.
I disagree with the both of you. The Difficulty of the challenge makes the reward seem more rewarding. Not the frustration of the gameplay.
Yes you are right, but the death penalty makes you play careful not sloppy, just as in real life. A death penalty is needed for that reason to make players think twice before they jump into the fire.
A game with a slim or no death penalty at all is often used as "travel", just because it's quicker to kill yourself to get to a city or landmark
Comments
Nobodys stoping you from making your own Harsh DP in a game, so why push that on others.
for instance, take WoW again.
Who stoping you from deleteing your epics each time you die? Wouldnt that be hardcore for you? Who stoping you from doing that?
[Mod Edit]
nm
Are you really that dense? We don't give a damn about WoW. Most of us don't even play it and have no intention of changing it. Were saying "give us a game that WE could play". We never asked you to come along. I think you need to improve your reading comprehension... or get out more.
Why do you feel the need to be included in everything. You're the one making it out as if we want you to die with us when really what we're saying is "get the hell out and leave us alone" especially since we're not even in your game.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I think it needs to be broken down a little more for people to understand. I think the big thing people are forgetting is that we are comparing apples to oranges here. Games with no DP have hard game play to get your gear. Some people like to sit there and do raids all day to get that one peice of gear to complete there set and they spend weeks getting it, like in WoW. The difference is that games like Darkfall do not make you spend tons of time getting gear. There is expensive gear and it gives you a little advantage but it is not like if you lose it you lose 4 weeks of time finding it. You probably crafted it yourself and can make another with a good 2 hours of time.
Some gamers like to look cool and have permanent progress they are judged by there items and how they look. Other gamers care more about the thrill of putting it all on the line.
THESE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF GAMES!
WoW players do not understand Darkfall players and vice versa. No one way is right. But I will say one fanboy comment. I pay a lot more attention when im doing stupid stuff in darkfall, like mining, even banking is exciting not know if your loot is going to be scrapped off your dead body for just trying to bank some wood. In games like WoW, I could bank without thinking and mining never really brought me a rush. If I died...well thank you for not making me have to walk as far to bank my crude.DF players just perfer everything be risky instead of very small moments of gameplay being exciting.
Either way both games can be hard in different ways. saying a harsh DP does not make a game hard is just kinda short sighted. If you lost your epic gear then you would have to find it again or kill the guy that took it from you. thats intense, and dare I say... could be hard to get that gear back.... What is hard to you?
Are you really that dense? We don't give a damn about WoW. Most of us don't even play it and have no intention of changing it. Were saying "give us a game that WE could play". We never asked you to come along. I think you need to improve your reading comprehension... or get out more.
Why do you feel the need to be included in everything. You're the one making it out as if we want you to die with us when really what we're saying is "get the hell out and leave us alone" especially since we're not even in your game.
Can't agree more, and as I stated in my previous post that "Pro Death-Penality" are not the ones pushing their opinions onto others and rather the complete opposite where, as shown by OP's first post, he attempts to force his opinion on others claiming that Pro Death-Penality are wrong, it's a bad idea and that they should get out of the MMO Scene (I exaggerated this part, but you get the point)
Funny thing is that he named WoW, which was never designed with a Harsh Death Penality in mind, and then tries to "prove something" by suggesting a Harsh Death Penality in WoW. This is beyond bias.
As shown by many other posters in this thread, the "Pro Death-Penality" are in for the challenge and actually using their brains. That's how they/we have fun. Not everyone shares the same opinion and prefer a formula similar to WoW, while we prefer a different formula like UO, AC, or (name your game with a harsh death penality here). In no way are we forcing our opinions on other when we ask for more games to catter to our audience and to request more challenge, that's how we have fun in Gaming in general.
What is seen as an annoyance by the WoW-like crowd is seen as a chance to improve themselves by the "Pro Death-Penality" crowd. Neither of these sides will understand each others, the mentality is too different. The OP simply refuses to understand this fact and does exactly what he accuses the HDP crowd of doing, which is to force their opinions on others.
Pot Meet Kettle?
While I agree with the idea behind your post, I don't think DarkFall was the right exemple. The death penality in DarkFall is, in my opinion, a joke. Most players have a stack of armors in their bank and dying doesn't mean much at all. Dying is more of a "ah...too bad, *put on a new armor*".
There are other games that had "better" death penality such as EQ as mentionned by another users, which I can't seem to find.....
Lets imagine that you die in real life when you die in game.
ok ,theres no game out what is worth dying,atleast yet.
point is when game is so high quality that you can start risking your virtual life and lose something when you die,then death penaltys are just good ad to the realism.
but first we need a game wheres so good to live that its worth dying,even a bit dying,miniying.
maybe Ultima Online 3 in a year 2200 is so good,who knows.
Generation P
OP has entirely missed the point of Harsh Death Penalty. The point is to encourage better gameplay among players so they AVOID dying. Avoiding death in a game with a harsh death penalty enhances both fun and immersion.
Without a harsh death penalty, you will never experience the atmosphere a dungeon is supposed to convey. Dungeons are scary in games with harsh death penalties, just as they would be scary if you really were in one.
I rather get the impression that the OP is like those people who dont like rock music/pr0n/eating meat/dangerous sports. It's not enough for them to simply avoid those things, they want everyone else to avoid them too.
In short, he's confused his personal preference with a moral imperative
Give me liberty or give me lasers
People always overlook the economical perspective in these discussions... full/part loot pvp is a great way to rotate items, combined with durability and weapons that actually break forever this is a key-stone in any good economy. A mmorpg without a good economy isn't a real mmorpg.
In many threads here, you see people talking about "skill", but what is it really? Is it the careful choreography of mousclicks and button presses in order to come out the winner? Where does strategy fit in, and to stretch this to even more ridiculous specificity, how does one define "strategy" in a MMO?
With a harsh death penalty, you have to prepare for contingency and make some decisions. You don't blindly go into a fight, then spend the first 5 minutes of your sudden death telling your buddies "LOL I died. Rez pls?" No. You consider the goal. You weigh your character's abilities and gear against your opponent's. You figure out whether you have the ability to brute-force your way to victory, or if you need to augment with a ready supply of health and/or mana potions. You make that all-important decion: "Is the outcome worth it at this time? Should I wait until I'm more capable?" You don't spend your time aimlessly skipping through some high-risk area. If you do decide to venture into someplace dangerous for your level and abilities, you take a more cautious approach. If aggro in the game is determined by line of sight, you plot a stealthy path through. Otherwise, you weave your way around, carefully avoiding range.
Some of us enjoy this type of challenge. As stated many times before, it does make you a better player. A more strategic, tactical player with improved skills that go well beyond how tight your cast/attack rotation is.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I enjoyed reading through this thread and seeing all well thought out responses completely ignored by the original poster. Nothing i can add to this thread that has not already been said at least pertaining to this topic.
Anyway "archtype" is spelled archetype.
Theres a big hole in your little concept there. You assume people don't bother to do all the things you just mentioned unless you get a knee to the groin;) Guess what? Many people do all things REGARDLESS, because harsh death penalty or not, we go into ANY encounter/situation prepared.
AGAIN, whats wrong with YOU deleting gear or dropping gold if YOU die, while letting the next guy just have a 5 minute walk? How does his lack of a harsh penalty effect YOU? Do you play all single player games on easy mode because you know others can, or do you play on HARD because playing on hard is fun for YOU. Me, I play all games on the harder difficulty because I don't care what other people do. But a harsh DP in a MMO does NOT make the game harder at all. All it does is add trivial, wasted TIME to my failures which is NOT productive, NOT fun and doesn't make me play better or make the actual battles any more difficult. I play the best I can regardless, because playing the best is whats fun. Success through lack of failure is fun. Failing over and over again is NOT fun. Making me waste another hour of my time each time I fail, is ONLY fun for people who place no value at all on the time wasted.
Its quite obvious. People with lives and responsibility understand the pointlessness of the harsh DP and don't need the game to force them to play better. They're risen above the need to twiddle their thumbs to feel a sense of urgency. You actually find joy in farming for gold to recoup the costs of a death or grinding another 100 mobs to recoup the EXP you lost? REALLY? Honestly? Thats challenging?
Those still in school or with no responsibility need the game to force them to play better. They won't do it on their own it seems. They apparently don't have the personal will to just play better. Its all simple maturity when it comes down to it. With a little life experience, you gain a better understanding of whats important. Pointlessly REPLAYING the time you lost in a videogame eventually takes second fiddle. In time some of you will understand=)
Dp can also be used as a motivation in a game.
What fun is it if your the only one losing items?
For some people the whole harsh Dp is the reason they play.
Honestly you wouldn't be asking these questions if you got into these types of games.
To truly understand this type of player base you need to do more than run trials, get ganked and cry on forums.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I think it depends alot on the type of game. For instance, in a MMOFPS (i.e. CoD, Halo, etc.), I don't really feel that a death penalty is really needed. However, in a MMORPG, I do think that a decent death penalty is needed. Without a healthy fear of dying, there is less emotional investment in the game. In a MMORPG, there really must be consequences to actions and risk, especially in a more non-competative environment (PVE).
The fact that a lot of people really despise the death penalty shows that it is doing its job. You are suppose to hate it. It forces you to avoid dying.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
When I die in most single-player games, I can simply reload from my last saved point; usually fully healthy. I want the same out of my MMOs. My ideal 'death penalty' for an MMO would be to respawn, fully healthy, at the very nearest safe spot, as many times as I want. I can accept a small gear penalty, but anything more bugs me.
Many people say Wow's death penalty is meaningless. My feeling is that, especially inside of instances, the death penalty is brutal. That long run back to the instance and possibly through respawns is extremely harsh, IMO.
If people want harsh death penalties they should join the army.
It's an all in one package, adrenal rush in combat and harsh penalties for error and failure.
I play games to relax, have fun, not to be punished for lag or the occasional bad decision.
Skaroth
See the violence inherent in the system!
What you have described is simply a well designed game. Such a game does not need harsh death penalties since the player will not succeed in the game if he/she does play 'smart'. In such a game the player will not advance if they do not prepare ahead of time, know their limitations and use proper tactics and strategy. In a well designed games harsh death penalties mean that players will overcompensate and try to trivialize the challenges whenever possible.
All you are really arguing is that in badly designed games death penalties train better players.
I said this before and I will say it again here for you DP complainers. STOP F'ing sucking and dying every 5 minutes and a death penalty isn't a factor. Thier should always be something in a game to discourage zerging a quest or pvp fight down. If you had no DP in games like Aion, Warhammer, thier be a total exodus of subscription even wow has a DP a cheesey one but its there. Watching some of you complain about a dp from dying is funny. You apparently have been dying too much because you decided to Leroy Jenkins 5 people hoping to kill one person. Now you wanna complain you gotta wait 3 minutes to recover from your ridiculous move. What a DP is designed to do in every game its in is to encourage you to (PLAY) better not be a zealot running to your death with no recourse. You don't want things like that play console games with a million do overs when you fail at playing something.
It will never EVER be not in MMORPG any game that does not have it sooner or later does incorporate in. Because it's a really bad game design to not have it in. And any real gamers will not respect or play the game thus game super fail. Look at Star Trek online with all its super fail. Look at its main forums what the main complaint is next to no end game. In all the polls in majority of the arguments yelling at the company. Is people saying its too damn easy because thiers no penalty from dying. Hell every mission and thing in that game you can practically throw your ship at the enemy blow yourself up. Then res and come right back until you whittle down the opponent. Thats not game play or a fact of less frustration thats f'ing hello kitty in space. Hell I think hello kitty online has a Dp of some sort. STFU dp whiners stop sucking learn to play without dying every 10 minutes. And stop coming here complaining about good game design that makes you learn how to play and not how to die and zerg like a noob.
Cool, cry about it and then play a game without it.
Problem solved.
The Official God FAQ
Define ZERG.
Is it a group of players in a PvP area at the same time.
So that once again brings up my original argument that HDP reduces the PvP player base, basically reducing the number in LARGE SCALE PvP.
In a game like DF were gear means little, what difference would losing gear be on death. that isnt the harshness. But in a game where gear means something, and you bascially lose everything, then we have a problem.
What if in DF, each time you died, you lost all your developed skills and you gear as well,, that would be a harsh DP wouldnt it.
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Another thing. Why do you need other player around you to suffer from HDP if, like the Pro-HDP people siad earier in the thread, that you enjoy HDP for the rush.
So what good would DP on others have on you? Like I said,,, nobody is stoping you from deleting your own epic gear or deleting your characters each time you die.
You say that you arent applying HDP on others, but then you turn around and say HDP has no rush unless if effects others.
That's because HDP does have no rush unless if effects others.
Sure.. I can delete my char everytime I die, but no one else is, so why the hell should I?
I'll stick to EVE.
There are two kinds of people in this world. People who pick their nose.. and liars.
This is the thing why we need better Role Playing Games.
Where for example you and your friend are wearing precious dragon armours,full sets,and someone show up and kills both of you,BUT,he can full loot your bodies,but he just cant carry 3 armour sets because those are a bit too heavy,u know,or he cant delete those either because,hes teeths are not strong enough.and so on.
Generation P
Do you intentionally not read posts? We've already told you some people enjoy making people lose shit. Its one of the motivators.
Also who told you gear meant nothing in DF? Sure early on its trivial but overall if gear meant nothing people wouldn't bother crafting.
Oh and certain games do skill loss, eve as an example if you don't update your clone or if you get blown up in T3 ships you lose skills.
This genre has all types of DP systems.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I disagree with the both of you.
The Difficulty of the challenge makes the reward seem more rewarding. Not the frustration of the gameplay.
Yes you are right, but the death penalty makes you play careful not sloppy, just as in real life. A death penalty is needed for that reason to make players think twice before they jump into the fire.
A game with a slim or no death penalty at all is often used as "travel", just because it's quicker to kill yourself to get to a city or landmark