Whatever happened to "it's done when it's done"?

greymann · March 2010

Why do we keep seeing / hearing about these games being rushed out so unfinished, buggy or half-assed in some other way? If they all try so hard at cloning and wanting to cash in on blizzard's success how is it they don't learn from one of their most notorious creeds? I'm no fan of blizzard as of late but appearantly these "me too" wanna-be developers are. What? They have financial pressures from investors, release deadlines, etc? Well too bad because if you're too weak to adopt the ineffible "it's done when it's done" policy then do us all a favor and DON'T TRY TO EFFING MAKE AN MMO GAME YOU IDIOTS!!

rlmccoy1987 · March 2010

Fans will support anything that is not considered a "themepark" MMO. I supported them at the beginning, then started finding out how bad it was getting and got a refund from my credit card. Other people complain about how they can't get refunds, the fans tell them that refunds are impossible... yet you can easily get one from your credit card.

Game companies will continue to release incomplete games as long as the customers will support them. If more people would refuse to accept the broken and incomplete games, and just get a refund from their preorders, the game companies would get a the picture, but then they might not...

This is one example that I can not stand.

www.mortalonline.com/forums/38418-no-sound.html

The guy is having problems with no sound in the game, due to a bug. The only thing the developer does is tell him to "search" the forums. Why not answer the question, even if you have to copy/paste it from another post. ANSWER HIS QUESTION!

olepi · March 2010

What I find odd is that people put up money for the game, and now want it back.

The game has been available all along, and people paid money for it. Now they want it back, even though they had access all along. Why did they pay in the first place?

If the game is not done, then don't buy it. Seems pretty simple. If you played the game, and decided to buy it, why should you get your money back now? It seems like a new trend, people pre-ordering a game (MO, STO) and then want their money back.

Unknown · March 2010

The lesson learned: Don't pre-order. I didn't and I know I am certainly not unhappy with my choice. But honestly, not matter what kind of game, play it first before you decide to buy it.

inBOIL · March 2010

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

I supported them at the beginning, then started finding out how bad it was getting and got a refund from my credit card. Other people complain about how they can't get refunds, the fans tell them that refunds are impossible... yet you can easily get one from your credit card.
If more people would refuse to accept the broken and incomplete games, and just get a refund from their preorders, the game companies would get a the picture, but then they might not...

just wondering if it is easy to get that refund ,why are you saying that people dont know how to do it?

rlmccoy1987 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

What I find odd is that people put up money for the game, and now want it back.
The game has been available all along, and people paid money for it. Now they want it back, even though they had access all along. Why did they pay in the first place?
If the game is not done, then don't buy it. Seems pretty simple. If you played the game, and decided to buy it, why should you get your money back now? It seems like a new trend, people pre-ordering a game (MO, STO) and then want their money back.

People will say "I didn't preorder for the beta" but that is a lie. I preordered the beta, it was very entertaining at the beginning, with a new type of game. Then it hit me, Starvault does not know what they are doing. I watched them for a few months release broken patches after broken patches (I know this is still beta) but they did not test any patches at all, they would just release them and I would say close to the majority of people would have the most basic problems. I complained in the forums about why they should release a better patcher (the one at the time would download the patches at 2kbps) I started complaining in the forum that they should release an installer that would UPDATE everyone's computer, as at that time people were still having problems with getting the game to run, and the devs and fans would just say "update your computer" and would give people links to manually download many different windows updates, such as directx and .net.

I decided to get a refund because I am not going to pay for a game and give developers money to support the game when the honestly had no experience or a strategy, they would just throw patches together (thats why every patch is 1 - 3 days late)

This is my opinion, this is not trolling, I am telling you my experience from SV. Mods please do not send me a warning or ban me as this is my opinion from following them from block A.

olepi · March 2010

Originally posted by reijan

The lesson learned: Don't pre-order. I didn't and I know I am certainly not unhappy with my choice. But honestly, not matter what kind of game, play it first before you decide to buy it.

What is also kind of weird is what STO did: they created a special offer for lifetime subs, but only BEFORE you can actually play the game! Sort of like getting that special new car deal, but only before you can test drive it. Suspicious.

In both cases, MO and STO, I downloaded the game and played for less than an hour. It was clear I didn't want the games, so I didn't buy them.

But once you download the game, and play it, and decide to buy it, and pay money for it, why should you get any money back now? Why would anyone pay for something before trying it? Seems odd to me.

olepi · March 2010

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by olepi

What I find odd is that people put up money for the game, and now want it back.
The game has been available all along, and people paid money for it. Now they want it back, even though they had access all along. Why did they pay in the first place?
If the game is not done, then don't buy it. Seems pretty simple. If you played the game, and decided to buy it, why should you get your money back now? It seems like a new trend, people pre-ordering a game (MO, STO) and then want their money back.

I preordered the beta, it was very entertaining at the beginning, with a new type of game.

Exactly my point, You downloaded the game, played it, found it entertaining, and paid money for it. Why do you think you are due any money back now?

Just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Why didn't you just wait until it was released?

I just don't understand the motivation to pay for something before you try it, or if you did try it, why should you get any money back now?

rlmccoy1987 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

Exactly my point, You downloaded the game, played it, found it entertaining, and paid money for it. Why do you think you are due any money back now?

Just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Why didn't you just wait until it was released?

I just don't understand the motivation to pay for something before you try it, or if you did try it, why should you get any money back now?

Because the game had not released yet, so I deserved my money back and I got it back.

That's how every other company that does preorders works, if you want to cancel your preorder, they give you a refund. Not my fault Starvault wouldn't return my refund request emails, they just deleted them and acted like it never happened. Hell, they did not even respond to VISA when VISA tried to contact them asking WTF was going on... So VISA just sent me a check in the mail and told me that Starvault would not respond to their requests...

olepi · March 2010

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by olepi

Exactly my point, You downloaded the game, played it, found it entertaining, and paid money for it. Why do you think you are due any money back now?

Just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Why didn't you just wait until it was released?

I just don't understand the motivation to pay for something before you try it, or if you did try it, why should you get any money back now?

Because the game had not released yet, so I deserved my money back and I got it back.

Why would you pay money for something that is not released? That is my question.

Slapshot1188 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by olepi

What I find odd is that people put up money for the game, and now want it back.
The game has been available all along, and people paid money for it. Now they want it back, even though they had access all along. Why did they pay in the first place?
If the game is not done, then don't buy it. Seems pretty simple. If you played the game, and decided to buy it, why should you get your money back now? It seems like a new trend, people pre-ordering a game (MO, STO) and then want their money back.

I preordered the beta, it was very entertaining at the beginning, with a new type of game.

Exactly my point, You downloaded the game, played it, found it entertaining, and paid money for it. Why do you think you are due any money back now?

Just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Why didn't you just wait until it was released?

I just don't understand the motivation to pay for something before you try it, or if you did try it, why should you get any money back now?

OK my friend.. I can see you are very interested in this issue.. so once again I urge you to search for the prior discussions. There are pages and pages on this topic. It's almost a settled matter here at this point and it's kind of like coming in at the end of a movie and asking people what happened so far.

With "pre-orders" you do so based on the info they provide. When I ordered I was told the game (not the beta) would be sent to me in Sept. When December came around and there was no game sent.. I tried to contact them and got no response (repeatedly). that's what forced the refund attempt and the subsequent chargeback. A company can't take your money and indefinately delay delivery, while ignoring your attempts to contact them for an update. I don't care if it's a game or any other product.

With ordering now, and not liking it and wanting your money back. I simply point you to the "FEATURES" tab on the main website. Many of those are not implemented and some of that that are implemented are only at the basic level. again, just like any product that advertises something that is different from what is delivered, most folks will want their money back.

Why should a game be any different?

rlmccoy1987 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by olepi

Exactly my point, You downloaded the game, played it, found it entertaining, and paid money for it. Why do you think you are due any money back now?

Just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Why didn't you just wait until it was released?

I just don't understand the motivation to pay for something before you try it, or if you did try it, why should you get any money back now?

Because the game had not released yet, so I deserved my money back and I got it back.

Why would you pay money for something that is not released? That is my question.

Because many of my friends left Darkfall and we heard about MO, and how it was going to be better than Darkfall. They talked me into preordering it. Big mistake, but its all good now since I got a refund.

inBOIL · March 2010

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Because the game had not released yet, so I deserved my money back and I got it back.

Im wondering even more,so why are you crying when you got your money back,since it goes something like this:

you want that game,and you got your money back.

if you wanna play that again,me thinks you need to buy it again.

rlmccoy1987 · March 2010

Originally posted by inBOIL

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Because the game had not released yet, so I deserved my money back and I got it back.

Im wondering even more,so why are you crying when you got your money back,since it goes something like this:

you want that game,and you got your money back.

if you wanna play that again,me thinks you need to buy it again.

Crying? I am just making threads of what is really going on in MO. I was trying to explain to you what my experiences were and why I decided to get a refund.

olepi · March 2010

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by olepi

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by olepi

What I find odd is that people put up money for the game, and now want it back.
The game has been available all along, and people paid money for it. Now they want it back, even though they had access all along. Why did they pay in the first place?
If the game is not done, then don't buy it. Seems pretty simple. If you played the game, and decided to buy it, why should you get your money back now? It seems like a new trend, people pre-ordering a game (MO, STO) and then want their money back.

I preordered the beta, it was very entertaining at the beginning, with a new type of game.

Exactly my point, You downloaded the game, played it, found it entertaining, and paid money for it. Why do you think you are due any money back now?

Just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to? Why didn't you just wait until it was released?

I just don't understand the motivation to pay for something before you try it, or if you did try it, why should you get any money back now?

OK my friend.. I can see you are very interested in this issue.. so once again I urge you to search for the prior discussions. There are pages and pages on this topic. It's almost a settled matter here at this point and it's kind of like coming in at the end of a movie and asking people what happened so far.

With "pre-orders" you do so based on the info they provide. When I ordered I was told the game (not the beta) would be sent to me in Sept. When December came around and there was no game sent.. I tried to contact them and got no response (repeatedly). that's what forced the refund attempt and the subsequent chargeback. A company can't take your money and indefinately delay delivery, while ignoring your attempts to contact them for an update. I don't care if it's a game or any other product.

With ordering now, and not liking it and wanting your money back. I simply point you to the "FEATURES" tab on the main website. Many of those are not implemented and some of that that are implemented are only at the basic level. again, just like any product that advertises something that is different from what is delivered, most folks will want their money back.

Why should a game be any different?

I am genuinely interested in why anyone would "pre-order" a game? What is the advantage? Why pay money up front based on promises? Why did you pre-order?

I tried the LoTRO beta, and loved it. I bought a lifetime sub, even though the game was unfinished. There was enough there that I would be happy with what I saw. But why would anyone pay money for something that doesn't exist?

rlmccoy1987 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

I am genuinely interested in why anyone would "pre-order" a game? What is the advantage? Why pay money up front based on promises? Why did you pre-order?

We thought we preordered the beta version of the game, that had basic systems and everything already implemented (you know like normal betas) they gave us pre-alpha. The only thing in the game was spawning in a lake and crashing the server, they did not even test that.

Again, we preordered a beta, which normally has BASIC SYSTEMS already implemented. The only thing this had was blank maps with no mobs, which I consider a pre-alpha. Most game developers test out their system before showing the closed beta testers, but not here. Very unprofessional.

olepi · March 2010

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

Originally posted by olepi

I am genuinely interested in why anyone would "pre-order" a game? What is the advantage? Why pay money up front based on promises? Why did you pre-order?

We thought we preordered the beta version of the game, that had basic systems and everything already implemented (you know like normal betas) they gave us pre-alpha. The only thing in the game was spawning in a lake and crashing the server, they did not even test that.

Again, we preordered a beta, which normally has BASIC SYSTEMS already implemented. The only thing this had was blank maps with no mobs, which I consider a pre-alpha. Most game developers test out their system before showing the closed beta testers, but not here. Very unprofessional.

Ok, I see that no-one will actually answer the question. Instead it seems to be a full time job to just bash the game.

I've said almost nothing about the game in this thread, other than I didn't like it. But trying to get a straight answer appears to be impossible. I would never pay for something unless I know what it is. Not sure why other people would, but .... anyway.

Slapshot1188 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

I am genuinely interested in why anyone would "pre-order" a game? What is the advantage? Why pay money up front based on promises? Why did you pre-order?
I tried the LoTRO beta, and loved it. I bought a lifetime sub, even though the game was unfinished. There was enough there that I would be happy with what I saw. But why would anyone pay money for something that doesn't exist?

As mentioned.. we discuss this elsewere already. I can't speak for other, but the reason that "I" preordered was simple. I had just left Darkfall. The Darkfall launch had a HUGE demand for limited slots. Many people did not get into the game at launch and could not purchase the game for weeks/months afterward.

The developers said that the only way to guarantee that you would get to play Mortal online on the day it was launched was to pre-order and reserve your spot. Now in a FFA PvP game.. time spent in game developing your characters give you a big edge over latecomers.

Had I known that they would still be selling the "limited" number of boxes 9 months later... I certainly wouldn't have pre-ordered but at the time the game was under strict NDA and I honestly was led to believe that demand would outstrip supply of the game...

Slapshot1188 · March 2010

Originally posted by olepi

Ok, I see that no-one will actually answer the question. Instead it seems to be a full time job to just bash the game.
I've said almost nothing about the game in this thread, other than I didn't like it. But trying to get a straight answer appears to be impossible. I would never pay for something unless I know what it is. Not sure why other people would, but .... anyway.

Again.. instead of bashing people here for not answering your questions.. please use the search function and read the many posts before yours. Once again.. it is like coming into the last 30 minutes of a movie and asking people next to you what has happened so far. We already had this discussion multiple times.

Also you left a whole 9 minutes between your question

I am genuinely interested in why anyone would "pre-order" a game? What is the advantage? Why pay money up front based on promises? Why did you pre-order?

and your reply where you "see that noone will actually answer the question"... if you really wanted a response from folks you might need to give it just a tad longer before beratting us for not answering... Don't you think?

Lastly.. you are once again off topic from the OP. As I suggested elsewhere.. please read the posts that have come before which directly relate to your question by using the search function. if you still have a question, start your own topic and see if anyone would like to rehash it with you.

inBOIL · March 2010

Originally posted by rlmccoy1987

We thought we preordered the beta version of the game, that had basic systems and everything already implemented (you know like normal betas) they gave us pre-alpha. The only thing in the game was spawning in a lake and crashing the server, they did not even test that.

Again, we preordered a beta, which normally has BASIC SYSTEMS already implemented. The only thing this had was blank maps with no mobs, which I consider a pre-alpha. Most game developers test out their system before showing the closed beta testers, but not here. Very unprofessional.

and wondering even more,so you know how betas should be,theres somekind of rulebook somewhere and laws how betas should be or you get your money back easily?

and if you can ,can you paste some sites wheres those beta BASIC SYSTEMS are explained.

Unknown · March 2010

I am not sure if I can answer your question to your satisfaction, but I can say I only pre-ordered a game once.

The most common reasons I see for pre-ordering would be:

a) You want to be part of it from the beginning, want to be part of something "big" and maybe gain a head-start. Maybe to get that special feeling when you can tell others that you were there "from the start".

b) You liked the ideas of the game and since this is a indie developer, you pre-ordered it, thinking you supported them, wanting a change from the usual "themepark" so many seem to hate.

c) Pre-ordering wasn't as risky before. During the last few years, the quality of the products has decreased. Now it is okay to release unfinished, buggy betas. Sure, those existed before too, but it has become more common, while in the past, it wasn't "as" risky.

Sure, pre-ordering can be considered a "risky" investment, but then again, humans do stranger things, like betting or using all their money to smoke and destroy their bodies. So while I still think one should think carefully and play the product before buying, pre-ordering (mostly supported by "hype") isn't that "strange" for MMO gamers.

inBOIL · March 2010

Originally posted by reijan

I am not sure if I can answer your question to your satisfaction, but I can say I only pre-ordered a game once.
The most common reasons I see for pre-ordering would be:
a) You want to be part of it from the beginning, want to be part of something "big" and maybe gain a head-start. Maybe to get that special feeling when you can tell others that you were there "from the start".
b) You liked the ideas of the game and since this is a indie developer, you pre-ordered it, thinking you supported them, wanting a change from the usual "themepark" so many seem to hate.
c) Pre-ordering wasn't as risky before. During the last few years, the quality of the products has decreased. Now it is okay to release unfinished, buggy betas. Sure, those existed before too, but it has become more common, while in the past, it wasn't "as" risky.

Sure, pre-ordering can be considered a "risky" investment, but then again, humans do stranger things, like betting or using all their money to smoke and destroy their bodies. So while I still think one should think carefully and play the product before buying, pre-ordering (mostly supported by "hype") isn't that "strange" for MMO gamers.

its not so new thing,some people bought "Sir" Daikatana

Slapshot1188 · March 2010

Originally posted by inBOIL

and wondering even more,so you know how betas should be,theres somekind of rulebook somewhere and laws how betas should be or you get your money back easily?

There are laws which cover consumer business transactions.. of which purchasing a computer game falls under. There are other threads on these forums that explain in great detail both the applicable EU laws and the relevent US regulations related to purchases made with a credit card. Feel free to look up those threads if you are truely looking for addition info!

Fraxture · March 2010

Imagine if other companies began to adopt the MMO model for production of a product...

Transportation (Planes, Trains and automobiles {Though I think Toyota did})

We beta test a plane, but instead of listeing to the testers about the fixes and repairs we push it out the door so we can start making cash off it ASAP. Then we worry about fixing those things later.

inBOIL · March 2010

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by inBOIL

and wondering even more,so you know how betas should be,theres somekind of rulebook somewhere and laws how betas should be or you get your money back easily?

There are laws which cover consumer business transactions.. of which purchasing a computer game falls under. There are other threads on these forums that explain in great detail both the applicable EU laws and the relevent US regulations related to purchases made with a credit card. Feel free to look up those threads if you are truely looking for addition info!

basically Mortal Online Beta promised that you can have magical sword +5 ,and you couldnt get it so you want refund,or what rule?

Slapshot1188 · March 2010

Originally posted by inBOIL

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by inBOIL

and wondering even more,so you know how betas should be,theres somekind of rulebook somewhere and laws how betas should be or you get your money back easily?

There are laws which cover consumer business transactions.. of which purchasing a computer game falls under. There are other threads on these forums that explain in great detail both the applicable EU laws and the relevent US regulations related to purchases made with a credit card. Feel free to look up those threads if you are truely looking for addition info!

basically Mortal Online Beta promised that you can have magical sword +5 ,and you couldnt get it so you want refund,or what rule?

Search is your friend.

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Whatever happened to "it's done when it's done"?

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