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I quit playing EQ2, you should too -READ WHY-

r1tualr1tual Member Posts: 559

Ok this come's down to one's morals and principal beleifs.  Some people wont care and some will.  Make your own decision.

 

Recently I was involved in a discussion on the EQ2 forums about SOE allowing people to sell in game items and currency for real world money on Ebay and other places.  The argument was basically wether SOE could stop it,  or they couldnt really stop it.

I did some studying of the law,  the EULA,  and Ebay's policy.  The fact is that if SOE wanted to they could charge people who do it with trademark infringement.  Any company can sue anyone if you sell their product without their permission.  The EULA also states that such things are against the EULA.  So SOE has proved that they arent going to enforce their own EULA even though it says such things will not be tolerated.  They are tolerating it.  Also Ebay's policy is that they wont close down the auctions because they arent illegal unless the people who own the items dont approve of the sales specifically.  So for SOE to not tell Ebay to stop allowing the auctions,  they are giving people permission to sell those items by ignoring it even though they know about it.

SOE's only statement they have made came from the forum moderators that "They will investiagte people using bot and cheat programs and will ban them if we can prove it".  The problem isnt with people using cheats,   the problem is that SOE will not stop the people who auction and sell items on websites even though the EULA does not  permit it.  SOE will not give a response,  they will ignore the topic,  and even though many have demanded a definitive answer on wether they were going to close the auctions,  have remained silent and reply in "they will stop bots when they find them".  They will not ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT THE AUCTIONS OR WEBSITES.

So on principal I cancelled my account.  This is shady business.  And for someone I pay 20$ a month (I pay 40$ for my 5MB cable connection).  That is alot of money,  like equal to my telephone charges.  I expect better.

 

I cant trust SOE.  They wont answer the question.  They wont uphold their own EULA.  And I ask all of you to consider boycotting their products.   Even if you like EQ2 and SWG or Planetside,  if you have morals and want to try and set a standard for honest business please just quit playing this game and dont buy into their products.  It will only get worse or not change at all.

If just 1000 people do this,  that is a significant amount and in truth the only way we have a check and balance against billion dollar companies is strength in numbers.  They might be able to release games,  but if they are proven unlegit then it wont mean nothing if noone will buy into them,  no matter how good their games are. 

I was brought up on honesty and morals,  as much as I like playing Planetside and EQ2,  I cant tolerate a Chinese company like SOE running their business like they do.

SO that is my argument,  the facts,  and I all hope you consider at least taking a break from SOE and the other game companies who wont enforce EULA's and in reasonable circumstances,  their lawful rights. 

Thanks

 

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Comments

  • gholstongholston Member Posts: 83

    not that i really care much about EQ2, or SOE for that matter, i want to make a couple quick points.

    1.SOE is not a Chinese company. It's Japanese.

    2.It, as you so eloquently stated, is up to the permission of the company itself if it is going to allow people to sell parts of their merchandise... It obviously seems that SOE does not mind these practices, therefore it is not illegal or immoral. It just is what it is... If you do not like it, you are doing the right thing by quitting, however that does not mean you have to try to convince everyone else to quit with you. This isn't political. It's simply a game. To me, it is a bit fascist of you to tell everyone else to quit because you are unhappy with something.


    don't let it bother you so much.
    there are plenty of other games out there.
    maybe you should try a smaller market game.

  • WickesWickes Member UncommonPosts: 749

    God I swear, some of you guys are better then Saturday Night Live.

    You did some studying of the law huh ... I can't wait until you study medicine image

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    What you are saying is so stupid, how bout you show us a source for any of this? Even if this is true, like it matters. These things dont ruin the game or the economy, unless it is done in excess, which EQ2 does not have. I have run into one bot, who was tailoring. He was a lvl 5 fighter but lvl 32 tailor, and sat there for hours and never spoke.

  • 92165449216544 Member Posts: 1,904

    You are taking mmorpgs too seriously, who cares if they let people cheat. Get a life, you sound like someone from WoW trying to create false facts in hopes to crush EQ2.

  • DyrttDyrtt Member Posts: 422

    1. I don't see how this is immoral. SOE has a policy. Enforcement of the policy is entirely up to their discretion. They most likely feel that it would be better to tolerate a little of this than to alienate all the paying customers that engage in this kind of behavior.

    2. Why are you singleing out SOE? Almost every MMO developer has this same clause in their EULA and it is almost never enforced. Try clicking on one of the IGE ads that are so prevalant at this site.

  • AmatayAmatay Member Posts: 170
    If you are quitting EQ2 because of something like this then I am glad to see you go.

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    # of deleted posts thus far: 1

  • r1tualr1tual Member Posts: 559

    It is exactly like I said.  It comes down to what you you think of it.

     

     

    Some people dont care SOE allows people to auction items and currency even though they made it non permittable in their EULA.

    Some people like me care about the EULA and expect the company to uphold it.

     

    I dont think it ruins the economy in the game.  It is just me saying "Hey wait I thought you said you wouldnt tolerate it,  but you are tolerating it".

     

    I made a decision I wasnt going to buy SOE products anymore.  Or Blizzard.  Or any other MMO right now,  because they all do the same thing.  I have more then enough fun playing First Person Shooter games.  In those games I dont have to worry about cheaters because I can personally ban them myself,  and I dont have to worry about bot's and Ebay because there is no currency or items to be sold.

     

     

    In MMO games I entrust the gaming companies to handle these things,  and well they proved that they cant live up to their end of the deal.  Maybe in 5 years MMO gaming will change.   I can wait.

     

  • r1tualr1tual Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by Dyrtt

     
    2. Why are you singleing out SOE? Almost every MMO developer has this same clause in their EULA and it is almost never enforced. Try clicking on one of the IGE ads that are so prevalant at this site.




    Because this is EQ2 general discussion.  But in my reply post above this one I said I gave up all MMO's because of companies not enforcing their EULA.

    in the EULA it also says they wont tolerate cheating.  since they wont enforce their other EULA rules,  what makes me think they are going to enforce the one about cheating? 

    I cant trust them,  I dont think they do a good enough job.  So I am not buying their product.  I have been a subscriber for about 2 years now between SWG,  PLanetside,  and EQ2.  But I am done.  I have reached enlightenment on the matter.

     

  • sygmassygmas Member Posts: 949

    Just so you all know -- the EULA would not hold up in court. This is why its never 'enforced'. (Besides the fact it costs more moeny than its worth to try and prosecute someone, courts are backed up as it is and many other reasons)

    image

  • r1tualr1tual Member Posts: 559



    Originally posted by sygmas

    Just so you all know -- the EULA would not hold up in court. This is why its never 'enforced'. (Besides the fact it costs more moeny than its worth to try and prosecute someone, courts are backed up as it is and many other reasons)




    EULA's have nothing to do with trademark laws.  Selling something that isnt yours that is trademarked,  is trademark infringement if that company decides they want to stop you from doing so and you do not agree.

    The EULA is just an agreement between you and SOE.  It is like a "handshake".  It doesnt mean anything,  but is is considered "your word".

     

    The law and the EULA are totally seperate things.  Selling game items is against the law in some respects.  Breaking the EULA is breaking your word with SOE and doesnt necessarily mean against the law.

    I told you I researched the facts.  Please dont try and refute knowledge.  It is just going to lead into debate,  this is not a debate thread.  Please start another one if you want to debate.  I will post there and teach you if you like on the law.   Or try and make you understand better.

  • sygmassygmas Member Posts: 949

    Doesn't matter. Out of game sales aren't going to go away. They are aware of them but they know its not worth the effort. SOE will usually try to close down as many auctions as it deems necessary (on ebay) that it can, but they never prosecute, and neither do any other game companies. Jack Emmert of Cryptic Studios was asked specifically about this as well, and he's basically taken the indifferent route too. People will do what they can do when they have money to do it.

    P.S. Don't speak as if you know /everything/ for all you know I could be a lawyer and know much more than you do about the subject. (I'm not, but its always possible, so that response was out of line / inappropriate)

    P.P.S. Most MMOG gamers are quite aware of this out of game market (im surprised you post here, as I type this I see an IGE banner right above the post) we just don't care, and if we do, then we can leave the game at our will. But I assure you most everyone is aware of these things. Don't need you to come preach leave EQ2 because of that (I don't play EQ2 as an aside)

    image

  • r1tualr1tual Member Posts: 559

    Ebay can shut down ALL EQ2 auctions with no problem at all.  That will take a huge dent out of this kind of activity.  Maybe it will go away all together.  Places like IGE are foreign and cannot be stopped.  But SOE could at least shut down Ebay sales and TRY and stop places like IGE.

    This would probably make it less of a lucrative business and game practice.

     

    It is not so much I care that people do it,  it is because it is in the EULA and SOE doesnt do what they can in reason to stop it.

     

     


     

  • RazorbackRazorback Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 5,253

    What I find bizarre is the way SOE sits back and happily watches Bots farm cash and sell it on Ebay. There are pages and pages of listings for EQ2 Gold for sale. Yet if you list your account for sale they are on it like a fly on $hit and claiming trademark infringement and asking Ebay to remove your listing.

    So they sat back and watched Jedi accounts in SWG sell for like $3000 US but they wont tolerate an EQ account being sold for $50.

    Nothing like consistent policy to create a sense of trust with your clients image

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    http://purepwnage.com
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  • darquenbladedarquenblade Member Posts: 1,015


    Originally posted by r1tual
    Ebay can shut down ALL EQ2 auctions with no problem at all. That will take a huge dent out of this kind of activity. Maybe it will go away all together. Places like IGE are foreign and cannot be stopped. But SOE could at least shut down Ebay sales and TRY and stop places like IGE.
    This would probably make it less of a lucrative business and game practice.

    It is not so much I care that people do it, it is because it is in the EULA and SOE doesnt do what they can in reason to stop it.



    r1tual, listen to yourself for a minute. In your last line you said yourself that you don't care if people do it, and that it's just an honesty issue with you. Well, that's fine and good for you. However, it simply doesn't give you the right to try and convince everyone else to be as morally 'shining' as you are on the subject.

    Personally, I don't feel the need to buy virtual cash off of ebay, and no doubt never will. I like the feeling of accomplishment I get from doing things myself. However, I really see nothing wrong with people that do decide to do it, and like you, I don't really think it has a significant affect on the overall game.

    As far as SOE (or any other company for that matter) being dishonest, I just don't see it as that big of a deal, and can kind of see where they are coming from. By totally 'locking down' on this type of activity, they can potentially lose out on a lot of subscriptions. Sure, in the EULA they point out that it is not acceptable, as I'm sure that under perfect circumstances they would be perfectly pleased if no one did the ebay thing. However, many people DO buy these virtual piles of cash, but they probably realize that in the end it's not really hurting anything, so they let it go.

    Like you and others have said, it's really up to them.

    (Did all of that make sense? lol ::::36::)

  • r1tualr1tual Member Posts: 559

    It promotes people using automation programs to play the game.

    No logical person can deny that.

     

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    SoE is discouraging trading of in game for $.

     

    I dont play the game, but if I was, I would rather see them focus on IMPROVING the game rather then in shallow debates and waste the money I gave them in shallow pursuit, yet, even if they would sue folks, I will just nod and play the game anyway, if I would like it.

     

    SoE is a CHAOTIC neutral(with good tendancies) company, they think of their interest first, and then, as a secondary thought, they are nice and helpfull toward their customers, which is a very acceptable approach.   SoE didnt fire much of their personnal ever(unlike Blizzard comedy), most of those who are not in SoE anymore, they actually left them.  SoE rarely ban players and they like to give additional chances to players, for a fee that benefit them.  Others will not try new features in a game, they only adapt existing stuff, SoE is a lot more daredevil, the many old EQ expensions going in differents ways everytime show this.  SoE is relatively forgiving as far as companies goes.

     

    I strongly dislike EQ2 and cant bear EQ anymore, reading about SWG make me cringe, and planetside is having a 0 appeal.  Yet, I respect SoE for what they are, and I understand what drive them.  If all they have to offer me for now is Champion, fine, I buy them gladly and play them, maybe 1 day they will understand that soloers are an important market share of the MMORPG realm and they will focus just as much on us as on others, and no, soloers are not necessarily casuals.  Maybe eventually they will build a game based turn game since they will judge it will be more profitable then adding another product on a market they already have so many products(especially with a pass to many games and/or mini games, possibly linked between themselves in another game they developp eventually), and I will gleefully go buy it!  And if not, it is oky, I will still check what they release from time to time.

     

    Personnally it never bother me that folks can buy stuff for RL $, they are self imposed victim, instead of playing the game they skip an important and nice part of the fun, and I can get all this inside the game, or they are on another server and dont affect me if I cant get it, which is all fine.  Personnally I think SoE should be selling the items themselves, for a cheap price, yet, you would need an item within the power reach of the new item to buy it, otherwise you would need to buy 1 or many intermediates items before opening this item as accessible, always at cheap prices.  It remove me nothing that my neighbor is at the same point that I am because he hunt or because he buy his items, and if ahead of me, as long as I know I can progress, it dont bother me either.  If I reach a point where progression is no more fun(or I feel impossible), I just quit, I always do that.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • ValaraukValarauk Member Posts: 303


    Originally posted by r1tual
    Ok this come's down to one's morals and principal beleifs.

    You mean SOE is a corporate entity run by a bunch of greedy bastards intent on nothing but their bottom line? Sheesh who knew.

    I mean if you can't trust massive multinational corporate conglomerates with something as sacrosanct as the administration of online games then who can you trust?

    ::::20::


    WARNING: Spelling and grammatical errors intentionally left in document to test for Anal Retentive Trolls.


    "The key to wasting time is distraction. Without distractions it's too obvious to your brain that you're not doing anything with it, and you start to feel uncomfortable." - Paul Graham http://paulgraham.com/hs.html

  • darquenbladedarquenblade Member Posts: 1,015


    Originally posted by Valarauk
    Originally posted by r1tual
    Ok this come's down to one's morals and principal beleifs.

    You mean SOE is a corporate entity run by a bunch of greedy bastards intent on nothing but their bottom line? Sheesh who knew.

    I mean if you can't trust massive multinational corporate conglomerates with something as sacrosanct as the administration of online games then who can you trust?

    ::::20::


    LOL

    I'm sorry, I found that to be extremely funny. ::::35::

    But seriously, r1tual:

    I think your personal morals regarding this issue are certianly commendable, but, all we're talking about here are games. However, maybe these high morals you have would be better directed towards something a bit more...umm....serious?

    ::::28::

  • JorevJorev Member Posts: 1,500

    Interesting that SOE did ask Ebay to remove all auctions of EQdead items and coin from Ebay, which they did, but they won't for EQ2. Perhaps it has to do with lagging sales and a shrinking customer base.

    There is nothing immoral about selling or buying game items/accounts. It is a part of all online games now and no real way to stop it. The problem is with fraud that exists because the sales are held outside the game world.

    I am surprised SOE has not realized the money to be made by facilitating sales for customers by handling the trades in game and processing the credit card charges /credits for a fee or percentage. That would be very profitable and would remove all fraud from these types of transactions. A much better idea and customer service offering than /pizza.

    image
    "We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
    Brad McQuaid
    Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
    Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    www.vanguardsoh

  • ScarisScaris Member UncommonPosts: 5,332


    Originally posted by r1tual
    Ebay can shut down ALL EQ2 auctions with no problem at all.  That will take a huge dent out of this kind of activity.  Maybe it will go away all together.  Places like IGE are foreign and cannot be stopped.  But SOE could at least shut down Ebay sales and TRY and stop places like IGE.
    This would probably make it less of a lucrative business and game practice.
     
    It is not so much I care that people do it,  it is because it is in the EULA and SOE doesnt do what they can in reason to stop it.
     
     
     

    And why would they? Because Sony asked them too, so what? Sony and no other MMO company can touch sites like IGE, web presence is not illegal, all they can do is ban accounts that IGE uses to trade with, which I have SEEN them do first hand.

    Considering how much you have complained about EQ II lately, I can't see how THIS is actually what made you quit, sorry, try again.

    - Scaris

    "What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World

  • ScarisScaris Member UncommonPosts: 5,332


    Originally posted by Jorev
    Interesting that SOE did ask Ebay to remove all auctions of EQdead items and coin from Ebay, which they did, but they won't for EQ2. Perhaps it has to do with lagging sales and a shrinking customer base.
    There is nothing immoral about selling or buying game items/accounts. It is a part of all online games now and no real way to stop it. The problem is with fraud that exists because the sales are held outside the game world.
    I am surprised SOE has not realized the money to be made by facilitating sales for customers by handling the trades in game and processing the credit card charges /credits for a fee or percentage. That would be very profitable and would remove all fraud from these types of transactions. A much better idea and customer service offering than /pizza.

    Firstly, the game is called Everquest, EQ "live" or "dead" as you decided to token it is a website, thats all. Secondly SOE did a survey of selling in game items via cash transaction legally and handles by SOE and apparently most were not in favor of it since it never made it into game.

    - Scaris

    "What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World

  • SerienSerien Member CommonPosts: 8,460



    Originally posted by r1tual

    Ok this come's down to one's morals and principal beleifs.  Some people wont care and some will.  Make your own decision.
     
    Recently I was involved in a discussion on the EQ2 forums about SOE allowing people to sell in game items and currency for real world money on Ebay and other places.  The argument was basically wether SOE could stop it,  or they couldnt really stop it.
    I did some studying of the law,  the EULA,  and Ebay's policy.  The fact is that if SOE wanted to they could charge people who do it with trademark infringement.  Any company can sue anyone if you sell their product without their permission.  The EULA also states that such things are against the EULA.  So SOE has proved that they arent going to enforce their own EULA even though it says such things will not be tolerated.  They are tolerating it.  Also Ebay's policy is that they wont close down the auctions because they arent illegal unless the people who own the items dont approve of the sales specifically.  So for SOE to not tell Ebay to stop allowing the auctions,  they are giving people permission to sell those items by ignoring it even though they know about it.
    SOE's only statement they have made came from the forum moderators that "They will investiagte people using bot and cheat programs and will ban them if we can prove it".  The problem isnt with people using cheats,   the problem is that SOE will not stop the people who auction and sell items on websites even though the EULA does not  permit it.  SOE will not give a response,  they will ignore the topic,  and even though many have demanded a definitive answer on wether they were going to close the auctions,  have remained silent and reply in "they will stop bots when they find them".  They will not ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT THE AUCTIONS OR WEBSITES.
    So on principal I cancelled my account.  This is shady business.  And for someone I pay 20$ a month (I pay 40$ for my 5MB cable connection).  That is alot of money,  like equal to my telephone charges.  I expect better.
     
    I cant trust SOE.  They wont answer the question.  They wont uphold their own EULA.  And I ask all of you to consider boycotting their products.   Even if you like EQ2 and SWG or Planetside,  if you have morals and want to try and set a standard for honest business please just quit playing this game and dont buy into their products.  It will only get worse or not change at all.
    If just 1000 people do this,  that is a significant amount and in truth the only way we have a check and balance against billion dollar companies is strength in numbers.  They might be able to release games,  but if they are proven unlegit then it wont mean nothing if noone will buy into them,  no matter how good their games are. 
    I was brought up on honesty and morals,  as much as I like playing Planetside and EQ2,  I cant tolerate a Chinese company like SOE running their business like they do.
    SO that is my argument,  the facts,  and I all hope you consider at least taking a break from SOE and the other game companies who wont enforce EULA's and in reasonable circumstances,  their lawful rights. 
    Thanks
     



    have you ever noticed how people put at the bottom of their auctions "I am selling the work and dedication I put into the game, nothing which violates SOE's trademarks"

    that basically covers them.

  • HashmanHashman Member Posts: 649

    This thread could apply to any mmorpg but because the OP has some kind of weird grudge against SoE its made to seem that sole responsibilty lies with SoE. eBay do take action, but only against auctions that do not specify that the material is property of xyz and that you only buying the time.

    It is up to players to stop buying gold, plat, whatever because these companies would not exist if there was no demand.

    I seriously doubt anyone can be caught unless you servers that specifically monitored activity or there was code built into the game that does so. The money has to be generated somehow and it usually through "Chinese farmers". This topic will run and run, but companies like enotts etc seem to be more popular than ever and they are raking in serious amounts of real cash. I really do believe that these "Chinese farmers" launder real life money by trading virtual money and that there is a link between them and more heinous activities. Its a perfect scam, con some rich westerner into parting with a couple of hundred dollars. The people actually playing the game 24/7, botting or whatever these so called Chinese farmers, probably never seen the full 100% and work for whoever runs the server shops in China. People need to be educated that the are doing a LOT more harm than just influencing an in game economy.

  • JodokaiJodokai Member Posts: 1,621

    Ritual, the logic this whole thing is based on is really flawed. You are saying SOE is untrustworthy because people are stealing from them. That's like saying if I shoot you, you're the jerk because you let me.

  • superhero13superhero13 Member Posts: 170


    Originally posted by Fadeus
    Originally posted by r1tual
    Ebay can shut down ALL EQ2 auctions with no problem at all. That will take a huge dent out of this kind of activity. Maybe it will go away all together. Places like IGE are foreign and cannot be stopped. But SOE could at least shut down Ebay sales and TRY and stop places like IGE.
    This would probably make it less of a lucrative business and game practice.

    It is not so much I care that people do it, it is because it is in the EULA and SOE doesnt do what they can in reason to stop it.


    And why would they? Because Sony asked them too, so what? Sony and no other MMO company can touch sites like IGE, web presence is not illegal, all they can do is ban accounts that IGE uses to trade with, which I have SEEN them do first hand.

    Considering how much you have complained about EQ II lately, I can't see how THIS is actually what made you quit, sorry, try again.



    Actually you're wrong about that. When the EQ developers discuss the different games that WE call EQ1 and EQ2...actually listen. All of the EQ2 dev videos call EQ1 "EQLive" - Strange but true.

This discussion has been closed.