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Earn a Jedi or Roll one from start?
nubadak
Member Posts: 150
As the title said....Should we earn a Jedi or Roll one out of the gates in old or new Star Wars?
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Nub's
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I think we have all learned from past experiences, having an alpha class just causes the entire game to be about getting it. Galaxies would be an entirely different ( and better ) game had they just made it so jedi were not going to be in the game at all, or selectable from the start.
There are Jedi and then there are unsucky Jedi. You can be a Jedi, but you still suck until you become a good Jedi. I'd rather work my way from a bad Jedi to a good Jedi than roll another class, trying to unlock an already-superpowered Jedi... by not playing a Jedi, which makes no sense.
You can just ignore my confusing reasoning and put me down as "roll one from start."
I think the way it worked pre-NGE was that there was a whole "lifestyle change" about choosing to go Jedi. Sure it let you be all-powerful, but 3 deaths and you're out, and you'll be hunted by BH's constantly. There was a tradeoff, and by going the Jedi route you would be playing a completely different game. With that in mind, I mastered nearly every combat badge on my main character without ever going Jedi, I figured I liked the casualness of being an immortal-nobody. Jedi was for people with something to prove, I think.
When they handed it out to everyone it struck me as insane because now the class was like every other shmub, and on top of it, Jedi were getting their asses kicked left and right by other classes... which I just have a hard time figuring around. They made the classes more "iconic", but the biggest icon amongst them was trivialized and made lame.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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Pre-NGE has Jedi correct, as posted above. Being able to play a jedi from the start is just silly and any game that allows it prolly wont be on my to play list
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
having unlockable jedi had the following effects
-everyone was grinding to unlock
-prices of weapons were expensive as all get out because of lack of crafter ( to busy grinding)
-the was NO galactic civil war (to busy grinding)
-most of the jedi were stereotypical hardcore aholes (some played out jedi correctly and honerably but most didn't) leet speak was insane, showing off was the norm. "I l1ght5ab3red you loz."
-mass quitting of players who didn't want to be a jedi but wanted to be on par with the other classes. This is my opinion was the first mass exodus, not the CU. I left during CU. Played some of NGE to try it out, it was worse than CU.
There was so many negative effects of having an alpha class. The only people that want them are the people that know they have the time and dedication to grinding a billion hours so they can have someone no one else can. It just doesn't promote fair and balanced gameplay.
Ya it does... for Jedi.
PvP wasn't about 1v1 unless you were a BH out hunting Jedi specifically. It was about taking bases and shit. Basically Jedi became the linchpins of these attacks, and most didn't want to risk being killed in PvP, while the rest did it because they'd just roll another. It worked very well the way it was tyvm, and if they went the way you envisioned it from the start, everyone would just be bitching about how lame Jedi's are vs Riflemen anyway. It was a hard class to work for, and an easy one to lose, the benefits fit.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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Ya it does... for Jedi.
PvP wasn't about 1v1 unless you were a BH out hunting Jedi specifically. It was about taking bases and shit. Basically Jedi became the linchpins of these attacks, and most didn't want to risk being killed in PvP, while the rest did it because they'd just roll another. It worked very well the way it was tyvm, and if they went the way you envisioned it from the start, everyone would just be bitching about how lame Jedi's are vs Riflemen anyway. It was a hard class to work for, and an easy one to lose, the benefits fit.
the way I envisioned it, is not having them at all. There were no new jedi during those times anyways. Not until Luke made the jedi academy after the destruction of the empire. There were force adepts at best. Which honestly would have made a better class and made more sense for the time period.
Also you say so yourself Ya it does... for Jedi. Jedi being the most hardcore elite aholes who everyone hates ( for the most part ) Yea lets make it good for them.... We've seen what happens when hardcores are on even playing field (darkfall anyways) and guess what you hate it.
For the most part hardcores WANT to grind away so they can easily beat on people with less experience/not alpha class/pick your pleasure given the MMO. If it isn't an alpha class it's twinks in WoW or something else in another game. Hardcores don't want a hard game, they want a game where casuals roll over and get crapped on for their amusement via exploits or other.
I for one am in between hardcore and casual. But I'm also not an idiot and I can think about the greater whole. An MMO with an alpha class WILL NOT SUCCEED. Period, end of story.
Ya it does... for Jedi.
PvP wasn't about 1v1 unless you were a BH out hunting Jedi specifically. It was about taking bases and shit. Basically Jedi became the linchpins of these attacks, and most didn't want to risk being killed in PvP, while the rest did it because they'd just roll another. It worked very well the way it was tyvm, and if they went the way you envisioned it from the start, everyone would just be bitching about how lame Jedi's are vs Riflemen anyway. It was a hard class to work for, and an easy one to lose, the benefits fit.
Totally agree with you there. I think they could do some quests to put the jedi changing "into lore",so you could find a trainer and finish some quest chains,something like that. But to have jedis from start,and a jedi being toe to toe with a smuggler?not the top smuggler,but an average one?what's the point?to feel like a jedi it is not
=/
Ya it does... for Jedi.
PvP wasn't about 1v1 unless you were a BH out hunting Jedi specifically. It was about taking bases and shit. Basically Jedi became the linchpins of these attacks, and most didn't want to risk being killed in PvP, while the rest did it because they'd just roll another. It worked very well the way it was tyvm, and if they went the way you envisioned it from the start, everyone would just be bitching about how lame Jedi's are vs Riflemen anyway. It was a hard class to work for, and an easy one to lose, the benefits fit.
Totally agree with you there. I think they could do some quests to put the jedi changing "into lore",so you could find a trainer and finish some quest chains,something like that. But to have jedis from start,and a jedi being toe to toe with a smuggler?not the top smuggler,but an average one?what's the point?to feel like a jedi it is not
=/
In it's very basic form, you are both saying you want a class that is better than all the other classes. Don't bring up unlocks, don't bring up star wars, don't bring up anything else but this one fact. Generalize it to this, and you will see how little sense it makes.
EDIT: Also for my previous posts, I don't disagree with making it hard to get Jedi, I don't agree with making them better than other classes.
Well this all seems to stem from your issues with other players, and not really about the class itself. Yes, tons of jerkwads went FS, but the majority of them went dark side, and that kind of puts them in a place to be handled right if you're alliance. The only thing I agree with is that they should'nt have had any new Jedi's because of the era it's in, if anything it should have been like Padawan powers on top of the skill setup, or something, but then everyone still becomes a Jedi at some point .
I really think the decision barrier between being all powerful but mortal is what made things as you seen, only those with the time/willpower to do the grind would do so. There were very few Jedi from what I remember, and even then it did nothing to bother me, as I was rarely flagged for PvP (only during group stuff really). It's impossible to have been "picked on" by a Jedi unless you walk around solo with the GCW flag on, which is dumb. Nobody fights 1v1 in that game except for Jedi (which again leads to it being the only fair 1v1 class, vs each other).
I bet a lot of swordsmen thought my pistoleer//TKA was "unfair" too. There *was no 1v1 fairness outside Jedi vs Jedi*.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Dont worry, Lucasarts will come with a new novel that will explain the amount of Jedi in this timeframe. This time it wont be an experimental virus that turns ppl into zombies, but a virus that has contaminated all planets and turned ppl into force sensitives.
So everything will be ok
I can agree with you on most of that. I just think that making it hard to get but balanced is still the best option. Making it hard to get will promote the difficulty of being a jedi, and the rarity of it, while making it so not everyone is one, and also keeping it balanced.
I don't disagree with hardcore stuff at all, although I'm ranting about it that isn't my point. I personally like hard stuff. If something in a game isn't borderline unreachable then it's value isn't that great to me. The problem I have is in the class balancing. There cannot be an alpha class, because this happens.
in a pvp game: alpha class owns not alpha class. He either decides to get alpha class for himself to compete, or quits.
in a pve game: only alpha classes are allowed to join the party as that is the maximum exp/gold.whatever per hour you can get, and we both know people do this. Look at casual WoW right now, people won't take you to dungeons unless you already have gear from the dungeon after it.
Alpha classes and MMO's cannot coexist. However, unlockable classes can. So long as they do not violate the aforementioned.
I hate this hardcore vs casual crap. Why cant you just say people who play more and work harder vs people who play less and dont put as much effort into it? Of course they are going to get stomped. Just like how in the real world there are people who work hard, long hours to become successful while others work more casually and are not as successful, albeit happy.
People who put in more work SHOULD be more powerful then those who work less. Unless of course you enjoy the PeeWee football mentality of "everybody wins". Which is bull to be honest when you pass the age of five.
Stop complaining you suck because you cant put in as much time and effort as people who play 20 hours a day. Its life. Deal with it. Just because you cant achieve top end items doesn't make the game any less fun. In fact, giving everybody the best only makes it pointless to strive to be better then others. It takes the fun out of achieving such things. Call it e-peen, hardcore, or whatever the hell you want, but its life.
There are always people who will be better then you and until this generation learns that games will keep being trivialized to give everybody everything.
Jedi were great in PvP, but nearly all PvE in SWG was dominated by ranged classes. I got in every group as the Pistoleer with the CC, and lets not even get into Riflemen when head shots dominated. Every class had a specific thing going on that made them necessary to a well-rounded group in any situation, and more often than not, Jedi were simply tanks. Riflemen could still put a hurting on one, if he wasn't charged that is.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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GTwander states he COULD turn into an alpha class,but chose not to. Many other did the same choice.something slipped away from your previsions about alpha classes
And at any point only jedis were allowed in raids?i can see the problem in WoW about gear and all,but SWG was sandbox,we can't really stretch the comparison that far,can we?Again,groups with "only jedi allowed" were NOT seen. I,for one,never saw it
This is the guy I was refering to when I said the stereotypical hardcore ahole. You guys need better representatives. Also I was a jedi, and I still don't agree with it.
The options were, become a jedi, or quit. I agree working hard should yield benefits. But working hard over multiple classes of equal strength is different then one all mighty class. What if someone doesn't want to play that class. They have to quit because no matter how hard they play their class it will never be as good as the alpha class.
I'm starting to question if you played the same game or not. If you simply had to dominate people in 1v1, then Jedi works, but 1v1 simply never happened in SWG because most people were smart and turned off the flag, or you'd be fighting a rival Jedi. Every group for raids (which again, are not like WoW ones) only needed a few Jedi to run out and grab the attention of everything to tank (PvE *and* PvP), which the rest did their thing. Carbineers/Pistoleers are in high-demand for CC that even Jedi's don't get, there's always a need for Medics, and Smugglers never went out of style. Every regular class typically had more going on because of the mixes you can make, Jedi are *only* good as tanks, which is *why* they win so often in 1v1 (even if they had hard as shit too). ~But last I checked they could still be CCed, and hit dirt like anything else, just not likely 1v1.
The 1v1 argument for SWG falls flat as soon as you figure in normal class spreads. There is always a setup with a single advantage over another that = I win.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
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you got to have jedi in the game, a lot of people want to play it. i prefer the old system of earning it. i wasnt that concerned about being jedi in the old swg, i just wanted to be a bh. i enjoyed when jedi were much more rare and afraid to show themselves much in public.
I do see what you are saying. But look at it from the other persons vantage. This person who doesn't have the alpha class, who may or may not have invested the same amount of time and effort as the alpha into their class, sees you displaying far less effort for far better results.
We know that in life, although things may not effect us, often times the arguement is on principle. Which is why I like to generalize it to " I want a class that is better than all other classes". Unlocking is a separate issue. While in SWG this may or may not have had an effect on PvP or PvE, you can see that many people on principle would get angry (myself included) that they worked just as hard on their class for less results.
The issue has really nothing to do with hardcores, other than the fact that they surrounded and enhanced the Jedi issue. Had they not done so I doubt the arguement would have been as violent, but ti would have still been there.
I for one wanted to be a smuggler, and all the spice, medic buffs, entertainer buff, and food could not make my class better than a jedi out of the box (at the time). So I was FORCED to be a jedi, just to feel like I wasn't being cheated.
I would absolutely love for there to be a way for an alpha class and for it to be fair to others, but I cannot personally think of a way to make it happen. Nothing in me wants more than for Jedi to be rare and elite. But it is just not fair, you have to understand that.
Actually I play quite casually. Currently playing EVE since I only have an hour or two per day of free time to play.
I still support difficult, unforgiving gameplay that doesn't reward everybody for just showing up. It doesnt mean you're hardcore. It means you enjoy a challenge.
While I agree with what you're saying, and one class should not steamroll others, people will always complain if they lose no matter what. Everybody cant be winners sadly. It doesnt bother me. If I'm not the best class at pvp or whatever I could care less. I actually usually pick a healer. It does happen to bother plenty of others though, which is why they complain about such things.
This man speaks the truth, being a Jedi in old or new starwars is in the cards BUT starting as one and getting better or.. being BESTOWED the title is the question players want answered. Seems players on all three sides want to have the title bestowed but only see the option to roll as a Jedi.
thoughts?
I think they would have done better to make Jedis an unlock-able class for people who had reached max level with another character. I guess that's the definition of a 'hero' class.
Eventually, though, everyone could potentially be a Jedi. There must be an idea for a mechanic to limit that somehow.
_____________________________
"Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"
An "s" in Jedi, there is not.
-Yoda, Intergalactic Grammar Police
I love these comments! The seriousness over a FUCKING video game! Then there is that guy over there comparing it to RL peewee football.
/facepalm
Funny, I keep hearing about how the game became all about earning jedi and how having an alpha class makes a game about nothing more than getting that class.
I was happy back then with my commando build(before it was a class). A few years later my wife and I returned. I played commando and officer, she had two accounts, playing shipwright, commando, tailor and medic.
Strange isn't it how my goal remained the same regardless? The only thing that changed was how it was implemented and how the game was presented. Open and free originally, bogged down and linear after. Though the OP's video was right in one regard at least, servers were flooded with friggin' Force using tweens after the NGE. Talk about breaking immersion.