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Random Boxes may be Illegal...

 Since the random boxes are basically electronic slots, they may be illegal under Federal Law in the United States. At the very least they violate several laws that state that you must make the public aware of the odds for any sort of gambling whether the prize is for monetary gain or not. Since the boxes are as mentioned electronic slots, that constitutes gambling under several statutes. Basically they have managed to survive since 2008 in the United States with out any filing a complaint with the state and federal Departments of Justice. 

I think in the near future you will see the random boxes disappear due to this. Whether they will be forced to pay restitution of any sort to their clients will be determined by a judge but this could actually break the game in the long run.

Good game but random boxes odds are higher than 1:50 for the main items they advertise. Further more they offer sales items stating that purchase will give them items, but in stead they receive random boxes.

Either way if you are new, steer away from buying boxes from this company just because they are basically a rip off leveraged to make Ndoor more money in a unethical manner.

 

This post was done on Atlanticaonline forums and then removed by them with in 15 minutes. LOL.

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Comments

  • BoA*BoA* Member UncommonPosts: 159

     Wow really? get over it.

  • EricDanieEricDanie Member UncommonPosts: 2,238

    Of course they deleted the thread without any notice as soon as it was seen by moderation.

    This represents a far more potential danger than some troll or angry customer, it is within their rights to do that on their private forums, though we are talking about a company avoiding any risks (actual risks here if this issue has been going unchecked since 2008) at its most arbitrary manner.

  • dhrddmdhrddm Member Posts: 65

    ROFLMAO!!!!!

    @xSagemanx

    That's the most pathetic post i've ever seen! Typical for crazy amis who sue everything that they don't like or don't understand (i generalize now but really that's the way many of the europeans see the americans)...

    At least i had a good laugh. Tnx for that.

    Come on... Give me a break!

  • trancejeremytrancejeremy Member UncommonPosts: 1,222

    I dunno though. Even though it basically is gambling, at the same time, you aren't literally gambling for money.

    Compare it to say, collectible card games, like Magic the Gathering. Some cards have more value than others, but ultimately, they are still just pieces of cardboard.

     

    I'm sympathetic, but I don't think you have much of a case. Consider it a step on the way to becoming your username...

    R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  • KordeshKordesh Member Posts: 1,715
    Originally posted by trancejeremy


    I dunno though. Even though it basically is gambling, at the same time, you aren't literally gambling for money.
    Compare it to say, collectible card games, like Magic the Gathering. Some cards have more value than others, but ultimately, they are still just pieces of cardboard.
     
    I'm sympathetic, but I don't think you have much of a case. Consider it a step on the way to becoming your username...

    You're right, you're not gambling for money, however he addressed this with the "whether the prize is for monetary gain or not" part which as I recall is true. However, I'm sure there is some legal loophole that it gets around this with, as technically due to all the sales to children with these random boxes, they would be allowing minors to gamble as well if they were considered a gambling system. 

    Basically, the law likely does not see them as such, so what the OP is suggesting would unfortunately not hold up in court, but the reality is that random boxes are essentially gambling in the sense of their mechanics and additionally would be equally reactive for people with gambling addictions. All in all, if they are not bound by law to be fair, they should be. There's nothing stopping a game from throwing these things in and essentially selling you boxes with no chance to ever produce anything (IE: completely rigged). 

    A side note, I've actually seen f2p games that have different types of random boxes and they did in fact list the odds of getting each item. I don't know if they felt obligated to or not, but just thought of that. 

     

    Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.

    EAT ME MMORPG.com!

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    Do anyone even know if it's illegal? I mean their not gambling real money.

  • CelebiCelebi Member Posts: 53

    I don't know if this is serious.. but I don't think that it's illegal since the there are lots of games has been released in the industry and there's no problem with that... still depends on how you are going to look on this issue and depends on you if you want to buy a random box no one will forced you anyway it's a matter of choice.

  • xephonicsxephonics Member CommonPosts: 672

    PWI did it with their anniversary boxes for months, ppl would spend a few hunder a wk/month on em.

     

    Worked out fine for them.  I'm sure their lawyers know a lot more about the law than anyone posting here.

    My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.

  • v4mp1r3v4mp1r3 Member Posts: 48
    Originally posted by xephonics


    I'm sure their lawyers know a lot more about the law than anyone posting here.

     

    This.

    Pretty sure they know what they're doing to some extent.

  • sacredfoolsacredfool Member UncommonPosts: 847

    Uhmmm..... you know this is a totally idiotic complaint right?

     

    If they actually did treat that as illegal, it would also make all "Buy washing powder X now and win a  free trip to Y"  illegal as it's "gambling" ;)



    No way any court will dare to up-turn such a business model.


    Originally posted by nethaniah

    Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


  • CelebiCelebi Member Posts: 53

    Well yeah... anyway no matter what would be the result lets wait for that...

  • VicodinTacoVicodinTaco Member UncommonPosts: 804
    Originally posted by xSagemanx


      Basically they have managed to survive since 2008 in the United States with out any filing a complaint with the state and federal Departments of Justice. 
    I think in the near future you will see the random boxes disappear due to this. Whether they will be forced to pay restitution of any sort to their clients will be determined by a judge but this could actually break the game in the long run.



     

    ya buddy.  i can see just about every attorney general in the US chomping at the bit to take this case on. 

    oh and don't forget the tort lawyers, they'll be lining up for this like accident attorneys at a theme park explosion.

    this could be bigger than the tobacco industry cover up.

     

    i wonder what my odds are of getting a good well made gordita supreme at taco bell.  they should post those odds on the menu. 

  • randomtrandomt Member UncommonPosts: 1,218

    huh, that is funny. The same logic means almost every single game in existence is illegal in the states. That makes no sense :p

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  • FeldronFeldron Member UncommonPosts: 337

    nope sorry but they arent illegal

    see the items are just 1s and 0s or digital code and that code is owned by the developer

    so even when you give them money, the code they add to your account still belongs to them and not you

    so really there is nothing you can do about it if they made the random boxes have 1 in a billion odds and cost $40 you still couldn't do anything about it

    the only thing you can do is stop paying them and play some thing else but they are counting on that and work on a revolving door model

    the customers that leave are gone but another one was born and started playing to replace them

    seriously thats how it works too

  • CelebiCelebi Member Posts: 53
    Originally posted by Feldron


    nope sorry but they arent illegal
    see the items are just 1s and 0s or digital code and that code is owned by the developer
    so even when you give them money, the code they add to your account still belongs to them and not you
    so really there is nothing you can do about it if they made the random boxes have 1 in a billion odds and cost $40 you still couldn't do anything about it
    the only thing you can do is stop paying them and play some thing else but they are counting on that and work on a revolving door model
    the customers that leave are gone but another one was born and started playing to replace them
    seriously thats how it works too

    Agreed!

  • ryanremryanrem Member Posts: 1

    I do believe he does have a point and i know for a fact this isnt a B**** complaint. I can smell i B* Complaint a mile away. Technicaly NDoors Interactive is selling a Digital Product (like how musicans sell MP3s of their music). So even though your not playing for money your still gambling and look at the legal definition "The act or practice of gambling; an agreement between two or more individuals to play collectively at a game of chance for a stake or wager, which will become the property of the winner and to which all involved make a contribution." 


     


    Now how could all this affect the world today now i thought up little senario for this


    You have a 11 year old that plays this game. For his birthday his mom gets him lets say 5000 points for this game. As he is loading up the game the advertisments say "You have a chance to Win a Zombie Outfit by buying this box". The kid buys 1 box in hopes to get the item he wanted. Now out of the rush that he gets of maybe winning or frustration (i dont know what drives people to gamble now a days) he buys an other box. Box after box he never gets the award he wanted and spends all the points. 20 years later in he sees a Casino sign that says "You have a chance to win a Million Dollars by playing our slot Machine". His Subconscience then remembers the thrill of trying to get that zombie outfit and he goes into that Casino and ruins his life.


     


    Now personally i dont really care much about item shops in games i think there a waste. But people who do buy into them like our victim in the story could ruin there life because they formed an addiction to gambling. Gambling is habbit forming just like smoking or heroin. Yes i will play a few poker games but it is a well known fact that most people who are addicted to Gambling is normally from slots. Now i dont care what you say "Oh your just a whiney baby who didnt get *insert random box item here" but just remember what i told you


     

  • loadbasicloadbasic Member UncommonPosts: 6

    According to the Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (2006), "bets and wagers," the key term of the definition for "internet gambling," includes, among others, the following:


    • A game subject to chance, wherein the participant risks property to win "something of value."

    With specific exceptions only for the following:


    • Securities, insurance, and guarantees.

    • Transactions approved by the Commodities Exchange Act (of which virtual goods are not a part of)

    • Events where participants risk only personal effort, internet connection fees, or credits provided free-of-charge.

    • Fantasy Sports Games (or any game where winnings reflect statistical data on at least two individuals in real world events).

    Unlawful internet gambling is basically defined as a bet or wager conducted over the internet that violates a state law (protip: no matter what, it violates Washington law) at either end, with specific exceptions for acts that fall under horseracing laws.  Going by text for the law, the following transactions are possibly illegal with some clever wording of the law:

    • Random Chance Boxes (likely, depending on the definition of "something of value")

    • Enhancement Items such as Orihaukon Stones (same)

    • Drop Rate in P2P Games (50-50, depending on the definition of "a game subject to chance" and Dominant Factor Test.  The illegal thing here is the act of buying a subscription for the goal of winning drops, thus indirectly becoming a game risking property (paid account) to win something of value (drops).  Also depends on the definition of "something of value.")

    As well as the following scenario:

    • If X-Box Live offered an online poker game for live points.  This falls under the paid subscription (X-Box live account) used to gather points (possibly something of value) at a game subject to chance (online poker game).  An argument can be made - though a bit hazy - that an individual is risking personal property for a chance to play poker to win points, which are - even if they have no cash value - valuable to the individual.

    What we can conclude from this is that the current internet gambling laws in the States are bologny and would plausibly shut down single-player games with a clever argument according to its text.  While Random Chance Boxes (and Enhancement Stones!) in the cash shop are plausibly illegal under the law, so is Lineage 2 as a whole.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 2,955

    While I find the boxes to be......morally questionable, I doubt they would fall under internet gambling rules as every time you open a box, you get something of "value". If there was a possibility that you got nothing, that could be a different story. But if you do struggle with gambling addiction, I would recommend staying away.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • BanquettoBanquetto Member UncommonPosts: 1,037

    Originally posted by WhiteLantern



    But if you do struggle with gambling addiction, I would recommend staying away.

    Agreed. I am so not into the idea of buying gambling boxes - well, I did buy a couple of the $1 costume boxes when I had a couple of bucks spare after buying my warrior license (didn't win crap, some ambrosia and a merc xp book). But I worry about how addicted some people must get - there's a guy in my guild, I don't know how much he spends, but every time Ndoors launches a new box, we see the guild announcement that he's just gotten the rare item from it, so he must just keep buying and buying until he wins. It's gotta be expensive.

  • farfanugonfarfanugon Member Posts: 419

    Section 5363 does not make it illegal for a mere player to make bets or wagers.  Rather, the Act applies only to those involved in the business of betting or wagering.  Section 5262 defines a bet :


    • as the staking or risking of property in order to win something of value based on the outcome of:

      • a contest of others

      • a sporting event, or

      • a game subject to chance

    • the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance

    • the making of a wager prohibited under the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act, or

    • as including "any instructions or information pertaining to the establishment or movement of funds by the bettor or customer in, to, or from an account with the business of betting or wagering."
    • IC 35-45-5-1 Version a Definitions Note: This version of section amended by P.L.2-2007, SEC.377. See also following version of this section amended by P.L.227-2007, SEC.64.

      Sec. 1 . As used in this chapter:

      "Gain " means the direct realization of winnings.

    • "Gambling device" means:

      (1) a mechanism by the operation of which a right to money or other property may be credited, in return for consideration, as the result of the operation of an element of chance;

      (2) a mechanism that, when operated for a consideration, does not return the same value or property for the same consideration upon each operation;

      (3) a mechanism, furniture, fixture, construction, or installation designed primarily for use in connection with professional gambling;

      (4) a policy ticket or wheel; or

      (5) a subassembly or essential part designed or intended for use in connection with such a device, mechanism, furniture, fixture, construction, or installation.

    • (a) The definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter.

      (b) "Electronic gaming device " means any electromechanical device, electrical device, or machine that satisfies at least one (1) of the following requirements:

      (1) It is a contrivance which for consideration affords the player an opportunity to obtain money or other items of value, the award of which is determined by chance even if accomplished by some skill, whether or not the prize is automatically paid by the contrivance.

      (2) It is a slot machine or any simulation or variation of a slot machine.

      (3) It is a matchup or lineup game machine or device operated for consideration, in which two (2) or more numerals, symbols,

      In the application of this definition, an immediate and unrecorded right to replay mechanically conferred on players of pinball machines and similar amusement devices is presumed to be without value.

    • so yes if a person had the time and or money to oppose the cash shop owner they could bring up legal chrages

    image

  • NatzratNatzrat Member Posts: 19

    Does the fact that you don't actually OWN your character/items change anything? You don't really win anything when you buy some random box because no matter what comes out of the box, you don't own it. You're really only paying to be entertained. 

  • dubistblaudubistblau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 274

    well people have their own opinions on things and for this one, random boxes really sux. but i do agree with Naz, we do play just to be entertained. Its not like buying a dog where we could own it, do whatever we want and etc. We shouldn't take things too seriously but i can't blame you guys, when money matters come in to the scene...hmmm... neway. peacE!

  • RodentofdoomRodentofdoom Member Posts: 273

    lol @ internet lawyers ...

     

    seriously though .. ndoors box system is just a mechanich designed to relieve thier customers of $

     

    nice game concept

    shitty (cash shop driven) economy.

  • dubistblaudubistblau Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 274

    Originally posted by Rodentofdoom

    lol @ internet lawyers ...

     

    seriously though .. ndoors box system is just a mechanich designed to relieve thier customers of $

     

    nice game concept

    shitty (cash shop driven) economy.

    Good observation man. but we cn't blame em. its business. they did this, i mean adapted the concept of the cash shop to earn. and people wants to play the game. though users really dont have to completely rely on the item mall. And besides, what matters is the customers' decision to buy or not to. :D

  • ninja33284ninja33284 Member Posts: 82

    Gambling is only illegal to minors if it is of monitary value, Kids of all age can partake in Online Poker for fake chipes all the live long day, its encouraged by alot of social Sites such as facebook and myspace. Gambling is only illegal if the bet is of monitary value,

    i dont play atlantica online but, Ingame currinancy =/= RLM (real life money)

     

    so you are allowed to do with it as you please seeing as it is immaginary.

     

    this is a major reason RMT is illegal, the black market is trying to put a monetary value where there currently is none

     

    -life long poker player ^_^

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