Only a few people seem to understand that the $1 charge has one purpose and that's to identify the user. With cc fess I doubt the company is getting any real money from the trial fee. With the $1 charge you are also forced to put in a billing address which, along with the cc number, is actually verified. This means that if they see someone (or group of people) abusing the trial they have a more effective way of daling with them (ban the cc and address). This means no more accounts linked to t hat cc number as well as no more accounts linked to that billing address. If they did what most games do and simply ask for an email address they loose the effectiveness of their bans. For a game like Darkfall the abuse of "disposable" accounts can have a lot more significant than other games.
A good byproduct of this is it ensures that people who play the trial are able to buy the game. Imagine playing the game for 7 days and getting into it then trying to pay for it and having the issues all of us had with their billing system or finding out that your payment method isn't allowed (gamecards, etc). This game has (or at least had) one of the worst billing web pages/processes I have ever seen. I had a problem buying the game since my cc has Jr after my name. It kept rejecting the charge until I removed the Jr. I have never had that problem with any other online purchase.
Apart from those that are having difficulty with finding a payment option that works in their country, I am glad the 7day trial isnt free.
If you can't afford or dont choose to pay $1 for a week of gaming, then the likelihood you will sub is probably minute. Will help weed out the people that just really arent interested in the game and just jump from trial to trial because theyre too cheap to actually pay for anything.
First I completly agree with you on how players would perceive an "enhanced" version of crafting in the long run.
But the 1$ does not discourage Gold Farmers/Sellers in any way shape or form. Gold Sellers are known for buying and subscribing several accounts at the same time and even buying new accounts whenever their account is banned. BUT, the current Full Loot PvP itself is enough to discourage several Gold Farmers, the price of gold for US $ is extremely high too, making this practice almost stupid and pointless.
As for multiple miner accounts, in the long run, it's better to have 1 subbed alt account for crafting and harvesting, mainly because a higher rank in harvesting is a lot more efficient, you also don't need 12 different computer to run each client. DarkFall is already pretty heavy on the CPU.
In fact, the 1$ Trial doesn't do much. It's more of a psychological barrier meant to keep "tourists" (to use Syncaine's expression) away from the game or simply reduce the influx of players joining the game, causing heavy load on the server, and thus causing a bad gaming experience (Lag) for Paying Customers (Subscribers), which Aventurine would like to avoid.
You have a higher opinion of the playerbase than I do. I'd wager on people abusing the trial accounts to do all sorts of nefarious things if it was free. This is Darkfall after all. I do agree that the server load is probably their primary concern however.
And the $1 thing still acts as a deterrent for gold sellers or spammers of other natures. It doesn't take much to break the gold-farmers back in a full loot environment like Darkfall.
Point being, the $1 charge has all sorts of benefits. Which is why I said it was very clever right from the start.
Gathering and crafting is an integral part of making a sandbox environment fueled by player created items work. Not including it would degrade the overall quality of the game. There is no such thing as interesting decision when your gathering. I challenge you to come up with a mechanic that makes gathering interesting for more than a day. Anything you can come up with that is "interesting" will soon degenerate into "tedius" and then into "OMG I HATE GATHERING". The closest thing to an actual interesting gathering mechanic already exists in Darkfall, which is full loot PvP. If your trying to argue that a WoW (like) gathering system is better than Darkfall. I think you're likely to find few people that agree with you. Nobody enjoys actively seeking out nodes in WoW. It's a chore and nothing more.
Are you seriously claiming that "click-and-AFK" is the least tedious gathering implementation? ...really?
Please try out A Tale in the Desert or Haven & Hearth. Both are crafting-centered sandboxes whose gathering/crafting is actually enjoyable because they involve a series of varied activities rather than forced AFKing.
The majority of gamers play games to play the game, not to be told they must AFK.
"They didn't "game-design" themselves into a bad decision. The choice is very logical and makes perfect sense."
Are you even reading my posts? I've stated multiple times that their decision may have been the most logical one left to them, given the corner they've designed themselves into.
Fighting a gun-wielding murderer is a bad decision, but if you venture out into the bad part of town it might be the best decision you're left with. The point being that going into the bad part of town was your primary mistake. Everything else simply followed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Gathering and crafting is an integral part of making a sandbox environment fueled by player created items work. Not including it would degrade the overall quality of the game. There is no such thing as interesting decision when your gathering. I challenge you to come up with a mechanic that makes gathering interesting for more than a day. Anything you can come up with that is "interesting" will soon degenerate into "tedius" and then into "OMG I HATE GATHERING". The closest thing to an actual interesting gathering mechanic already exists in Darkfall, which is full loot PvP. If your trying to argue that a WoW (like) gathering system is better than Darkfall. I think you're likely to find few people that agree with you. Nobody enjoys actively seeking out nodes in WoW. It's a chore and nothing more.
Are you seriously claiming that "click-and-AFK" is the least tedious gathering implementation? ...really?
Please try out A Tale in the Desert or Haven & Hearth. Both are crafting-centered sandboxes whose gathering/crafting is actually enjoyable because they involve a series of varied activities rather than forced AFKing.
The majority of gamers play games to play the game, not to be told they must AFK.
This is not a craft-centered sandbox first off, and second off what would you rather do, click your mouse every time you swing your axe down? Do you want a Wii remote so you can actually perform a swinging action? You seem to be nit-picking to the highest degree man.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
There is no such thing as interesting decision when your gathering. I challenge you to come up with a mechanic that makes gathering interesting for more than a day. Anything you can come up with that is "interesting" will soon degenerate into "tedius" and then into "OMG I HATE GATHERING". The closest thing to an actual interesting gathering mechanic already exists in Darkfall, which is full loot PvP.
I think you answered your own challenge here.
PVP and PVE are both forms of gathering which are vastly more interesting than click-and-AFK. Heck, if all Darkfall did was remove gather skills and replace them with additional mob spawns which provided necessary mats (or tweaked required mats down) they could accomplish the same thing -- since PVE is a form of gathering.
But that's apart from the different ways that gathering actually could be improved to involve interesting decisionmaking. Heck, let me play some 60 sec Bejeweled Blitz rounds and have my score determine the quantity of ore I get. Just don't force my character to AFK because the activity is utterly non-interactive. I didn't buy a game to not interact with it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is not a craft-centered sandbox first off, and second off what would rather do, click your mouse every time you swing your axe down? Do you want a Wii remote so you can actually perform a swinging action? You seem to be nit-picking to the highest degree man.
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is not a craft-centered sandbox first off, and second off what would rather do, click your mouse every time you swing your axe down? Do you want a Wii remote so you can actually perform a swinging action? You seem to be nit-picking to the highest degree man.
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
Because it is enjoyable. I wouldn't want to just gather in the game, that would be boring. But I explore, I go out to find some PVP, I defend my home, I hit my favorite mobs, I craft armour and weapons, and when I'm not doing those things I gather. I enjoy trying to find a safe place to gather, I enjoy the excitement of trying to get everything to a bank without another playing helping themselves to my iron etc. I also love how gathering increases different stats, depending on what kind of gathering you do.
There a lot of different things to do in this game, all of which I enjoy. If this was a craft-centered a game I could see the need to complain, but this is simply not the case.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
This is not a craft-centered sandbox first off, and second off what would rather do, click your mouse every time you swing your axe down? Do you want a Wii remote so you can actually perform a swinging action? You seem to be nit-picking to the highest degree man.
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
Because it is enjoyable. I wouldn't want to just gather in the game, that would be boring. But I explore, I go out to find some PVP, I defend my home, I hit my favorite mobs, I craft armour and weapons, and when I'm not doing those things I gather. I enjoy trying to find a safe place to gather, I enjoy the excitement of trying to get everything to a bank without another playing helping themselves to my iron etc. I also love how gathering increases different stats, depending on what kind of gathering you do.
There a lot of different things to do in this game, all of which I enjoy. If this was a craft-centered a game I could see the need to complain, but this is simply not the case.
Yeah, but you could have all that without gathering being the least interesting game mechanic conceivable. None of what you've described is rationale for gathering being terrible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yeah, but you could have all that without gathering being the least interesting game mechanic conceivable. None of what you've described is rationale for gathering being terrible.
To each their own then, I would not label the gathering process in Darkfall as terrible. Sure it's simple, but for example how complex do think it is to chop wood? I've been chopping my own firewood for most of life. It's actually quite simple and can be very tedious if I need a lot of wood. I guess I don't understand what kind of complexity you're looking for in a gathering design for an MMOrpg.
Have you ever picked your own berries before?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Are you seriously claiming that "click-and-AFK" is the least tedious gathering implementation? ...really? Please try out A Tale in the Desert or Haven & Hearth. Both are crafting-centered sandboxes whose gathering/crafting is actually enjoyable because they involve a series of varied activities rather than forced AFKing. The majority of gamers play games to play the game, not to be told they must AFK.
Yes, I am seriously saying designing a boring system that integrates downtime to complete is better than designing a boring system that requires an active effort to complete. Wanna know why? Nobody plays Darkfall for gathering Gathering could be the most awesomest thing in the world in Darkfall, and nobody would give a crap. That doesn't change the fact that a crafting system is integral to the sandbox environment they are going for.
Both the games you listed are for gamers who have little to no interest in a PvP combat oriented game. And to be honest, they both are boring as piss imo. Your not going to sell either games time/activity consuming gathering system attached to a game whose playerbase is built around competitive FPS PvP.
Yes, the majority of gamers play games to play the game. The game in Darkfall is not gathering. Which is why its better left as an activity for players to complete in what would otherwise be downtime... ala afk gathering.
This is not a craft-centered sandbox first off, and second off what would rather do, click your mouse every time you swing your axe down? Do you want a Wii remote so you can actually perform a swinging action? You seem to be nit-picking to the highest degree man.
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
Because people enjoy sitting down to a meal, watching the TV, taking a shower, running to the store, doing homework, etc etc etc and still advancing their characters stats or wealth. Gathering and crafting is a downtime activity, and it works fine that way... because DF isn't meant to be a purely crafting sandbox. It is, however, a sandbox... and removing gathering would destroy the immersion factor.
When they play the game, a Darkfall player doesn't want to spend their active time gathering... they'd rather be killing stuff.
I feel sorry for some of you who are so jaded with the mmo genre, that you find fault in every game that comes out. Even worse, you try to dissuade everyone else from playing these games as well. Thank you OP for posting this. I am downloading the client as we speak. I've been waiting so long to try this game.
I don't know if anyone one mentioned this, but a good way to make crafting more meaningful is to have good rewards, a reason to harvest/craft in the first place(player created economy is a good one), and a consequence while harvesting stuff and/or crafting. I haven't played this game yet, but when I hear people talk about how to improve harvest/craft i think of Saga of Ryzom. That game has a well rounded crafting system. The player based economy forces it to be meaningful. the customizations within the harvest/craft system are enjoyable. The craft system gives reason to explore high level areas at low levels for better mats, my favorite thing to do personally. There are consequences while harvesting(the ground explodes, the source runs out) which can be prevented with teamwork! teamwork in harvesting is a cool idea. There are many good ideas to be had too. I guess just make it a little more challenging too? Just an idea about making a reason to not have "afk" harvesting and crafting since the last post was pretty directly related to what I'm thinking here.
I think you answered your own challenge here. PVP and PVE are both forms of gathering which are vastly more interesting than click-and-AFK. Heck, if all Darkfall did was remove gather skills and replace them with additional mob spawns which provided necessary mats (or tweaked required mats down) they could accomplish the same thing -- since PVE is a form of gathering. But that's apart from the different ways that gathering actually could be improved to involve interesting decisionmaking. Heck, let me play some 60 sec Bejeweled Blitz rounds and have my score determine the quantity of ore I get. Just don't force my character to AFK because the activity is utterly non-interactive. I didn't buy a game to not interact with it.
Actually, more advanced crafting DOES require mob drops. Yeah, you can make simple shit off the stuff you gather off nodes, but let's see you forge a Keened Justicebringer that way.....not gonna happen.
Even just rare ingots...you can keep hitting the mine in your clan city (and competing for the resources there), or you can go out with a group, and kill some golems.
Besides...no one's forcing you to gather. Go red and kill gatherers, get your mats that way. Or head to an enemy territory, and kill THEIR gatherers....or simply buy your mats.
Why go herbing for mandrake?? Kill Akathars....you'll actually get MORE mandrake that way. Why go herbing for steedgrass?? Buy a mount, or kill someone off theirs.
There's more than the obvious method to accomplishing almost anything in this game. Use some imagination.
Honestly, with the sheer number of MMORPGs out there, a MMO would have to offer an incentive for me to spend my precious time evaluating their product (and most of time QAing and help devs fix by reporting bugs). They should be paying me for their half baked product that they are trying to hook more income streams over time. Yes, it's a business. And yes, they should make a profit. And seriously, whoever over there at the DF marketing department that came up with this half baked idea of charging a dollar ought to be fired or at least made to sit in the corner with a dunce hat for a week. The marketing manager that signed off on the idea should probably be let go, too. And the community manager that kept quite rather than piping up to beg and plead not letting this happen shouldn't keep his or her job either (nor would she want to with the negative uproar that this is going to cause). The competitive landscape simply could not tolerate such poorly thought out marketing scheme. This is just bad business. Heck, they probably lose more money processing the charges and having to deal with fraudulent charges than to have simply left it free. If they ever release any stats about this "promotion", I would not be at all surprised if it made history as one of the worst ever marketing campaign. I'm sorry to say this but I'd rank it up there with selling a life time membership to Tabula Rasa after it has peaked. :P
To each their own then, I would not label the gathering process in Darkfall as terrible. Sure it's simple, but for example how complex do think it is to chop wood? I've been chopping my own firewood for most of life. It's actually quite simple and can be very tedious if I need a lot of wood. I guess I don't understand what kind of complexity you're looking for in a gathering design for an MMOrpg. Have you ever picked your own berries before?
Sure. Tons of blackberry jam a few months back.
Replicating the drudgery of life is not the reason people play games. Interesting interactions are. Being able to observe a system, interact with it, then observe the results, and in doing so learn which interactions work better than others. This is the core of what drives players to play games. It's the core of what engages players. Because it's the core of how humans learn (and our minds like learning.)
The root problem here is being prevented from doing anything else. If it was a simple decision (clicking a tree) but combined with a variety of other decisions, it'd be fine (that's the recipe for most good games: an interesting combination of many simple decisions.) if it was a fire-and-forget decision which didn't prevent you from doing other things, that'd also solve it (like my herb suggestion.)
Of course some solutions simply make gathering more enjoyable/less tedious, while others additionally solve my original critique which is that the game's design lends itself to a $1 trial. My herb suggestion doesn't limit the option for players to AFK the task, but simply adds additional rewards for the players who would do other things (thus gaining skills/stats) while the herb grew (which reduces the comparitive value of AFK-gathering.)
Also fwiw I'm not against "offline activities" gaining you skill or items while you're offline, but I think it's poor design to force players to remain online (periodically not AFK) during such activities. I dunno...there's hundreds/thousands of other games that doesn't fall into these degenerative game mechanics, so I'm still a little confused that the DF playerbase has been this zealous in defending DF's gather mechanics. I expected some zealous defence, but I also expected some "yeah it sucks it'd be better if it wasn't in the game" or "...be better if it was improved."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Honestly, with the sheer number of MMORPGs out there, a MMO would have to offer an incentive for me to spend my precious time evaluating their product (and most of time QAing and help devs fix by reporting bugs). They should be paying me for their half baked product that they are trying to hook more income streams over time. Yes, it's a business. And yes, they should make a profit. And seriously, whoever over there at the DF marketing department that came up with this half baked idea of charging a dollar ought to be fired or at least made to sit in the corner with a dunce hat for a week. The marketing manager that signed off on the idea should probably be let go, too. And the community manager that kept quite rather than piping up to beg and plead not letting this happen shouldn't keep his or her job either (nor would she want to with the negative uproar that this is going to cause). The competitive landscape simply could not tolerate such poorly thought out marketing scheme. This is just bad business. Heck, they probably lose more money processing the charges and having to deal with fraudulent charges than to have simply left it free. If they ever release any stats about this "promotion", I would not be at all surprised if it made history as one of the worst ever marketing campaign. I'm sorry to say this but I'd rank it up there with selling a life time membership to Tabula Rasa after it has peaked. :P
You might wanna tell Square Enix that then, since FFX1 also has a $5 trial. (On the counter in physical CD form at EB games, BTW)
You've missed the point entirely. Thanks for making me laugh.
.. { MOD EDIT: Language } ..
Also....You either want to play the game, or you don't. AV isn't going to beg anyone to play.
I personally think all this silliness over the $1 fee for the Trial is just forum banter...
In the end, it is an honest to goodness Trial that the general public can now participate in for DarkFall. Something that I've been harping about for them to get implemented since October of 2008.
Sure, it would have been even better (for those not currently playing) if it was totally free.
Sure, it would have been better if it was for more than 7 days.
I personally think it's a decent start from Aventurine, and I think they deserve a bit of kudos for providing it.
(Yeah, I know... I've probably officially lost my skeptic/hater label now).
As an aside...
Has anyone thought that Aventurine decided to charge $1 for their Trial for the specific reason we are now witnessing?
Meaning that it has created it's own buzz and advertising for said Trial. Aventurine has done some bizarre things in the past... it wouldn't surprise me if this was one of their better decisions in the marketing arena. Just saying.
Comments
Hah! Did i see someone complain about spending $1 for a 7-day trial of a game? lol pathetic.
Wow a lot of ignornace here.
Only a few people seem to understand that the $1 charge has one purpose and that's to identify the user. With cc fess I doubt the company is getting any real money from the trial fee. With the $1 charge you are also forced to put in a billing address which, along with the cc number, is actually verified. This means that if they see someone (or group of people) abusing the trial they have a more effective way of daling with them (ban the cc and address). This means no more accounts linked to t hat cc number as well as no more accounts linked to that billing address. If they did what most games do and simply ask for an email address they loose the effectiveness of their bans. For a game like Darkfall the abuse of "disposable" accounts can have a lot more significant than other games.
A good byproduct of this is it ensures that people who play the trial are able to buy the game. Imagine playing the game for 7 days and getting into it then trying to pay for it and having the issues all of us had with their billing system or finding out that your payment method isn't allowed (gamecards, etc). This game has (or at least had) one of the worst billing web pages/processes I have ever seen. I had a problem buying the game since my cc has Jr after my name. It kept rejecting the charge until I removed the Jr. I have never had that problem with any other online purchase.
Apart from those that are having difficulty with finding a payment option that works in their country, I am glad the 7day trial isnt free.
If you can't afford or dont choose to pay $1 for a week of gaming, then the likelihood you will sub is probably minute. Will help weed out the people that just really arent interested in the game and just jump from trial to trial because theyre too cheap to actually pay for anything.
Kudos AV
You have a higher opinion of the playerbase than I do. I'd wager on people abusing the trial accounts to do all sorts of nefarious things if it was free. This is Darkfall after all. I do agree that the server load is probably their primary concern however.
And the $1 thing still acts as a deterrent for gold sellers or spammers of other natures. It doesn't take much to break the gold-farmers back in a full loot environment like Darkfall.
Point being, the $1 charge has all sorts of benefits. Which is why I said it was very clever right from the start.
Are you seriously claiming that "click-and-AFK" is the least tedious gathering implementation? ...really?
Please try out A Tale in the Desert or Haven & Hearth. Both are crafting-centered sandboxes whose gathering/crafting is actually enjoyable because they involve a series of varied activities rather than forced AFKing.
The majority of gamers play games to play the game, not to be told they must AFK.
"They didn't "game-design" themselves into a bad decision. The choice is very logical and makes perfect sense."
Are you even reading my posts? I've stated multiple times that their decision may have been the most logical one left to them, given the corner they've designed themselves into.
Fighting a gun-wielding murderer is a bad decision, but if you venture out into the bad part of town it might be the best decision you're left with. The point being that going into the bad part of town was your primary mistake. Everything else simply followed.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Are you seriously claiming that "click-and-AFK" is the least tedious gathering implementation? ...really?
Please try out A Tale in the Desert or Haven & Hearth. Both are crafting-centered sandboxes whose gathering/crafting is actually enjoyable because they involve a series of varied activities rather than forced AFKing.
The majority of gamers play games to play the game, not to be told they must AFK.
This is not a craft-centered sandbox first off, and second off what would you rather do, click your mouse every time you swing your axe down? Do you want a Wii remote so you can actually perform a swinging action? You seem to be nit-picking to the highest degree man.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think you answered your own challenge here.
PVP and PVE are both forms of gathering which are vastly more interesting than click-and-AFK. Heck, if all Darkfall did was remove gather skills and replace them with additional mob spawns which provided necessary mats (or tweaked required mats down) they could accomplish the same thing -- since PVE is a form of gathering.
But that's apart from the different ways that gathering actually could be improved to involve interesting decisionmaking. Heck, let me play some 60 sec Bejeweled Blitz rounds and have my score determine the quantity of ore I get. Just don't force my character to AFK because the activity is utterly non-interactive. I didn't buy a game to not interact with it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
Because it is enjoyable. I wouldn't want to just gather in the game, that would be boring. But I explore, I go out to find some PVP, I defend my home, I hit my favorite mobs, I craft armour and weapons, and when I'm not doing those things I gather. I enjoy trying to find a safe place to gather, I enjoy the excitement of trying to get everything to a bank without another playing helping themselves to my iron etc. I also love how gathering increases different stats, depending on what kind of gathering you do.
There a lot of different things to do in this game, all of which I enjoy. If this was a craft-centered a game I could see the need to complain, but this is simply not the case.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
Because it is enjoyable. I wouldn't want to just gather in the game, that would be boring. But I explore, I go out to find some PVP, I defend my home, I hit my favorite mobs, I craft armour and weapons, and when I'm not doing those things I gather. I enjoy trying to find a safe place to gather, I enjoy the excitement of trying to get everything to a bank without another playing helping themselves to my iron etc. I also love how gathering increases different stats, depending on what kind of gathering you do.
There a lot of different things to do in this game, all of which I enjoy. If this was a craft-centered a game I could see the need to complain, but this is simply not the case.
Yeah, but you could have all that without gathering being the least interesting game mechanic conceivable. None of what you've described is rationale for gathering being terrible.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
To each their own then, I would not label the gathering process in Darkfall as terrible. Sure it's simple, but for example how complex do think it is to chop wood? I've been chopping my own firewood for most of life. It's actually quite simple and can be very tedious if I need a lot of wood. I guess I don't understand what kind of complexity you're looking for in a gathering design for an MMOrpg.
Have you ever picked your own berries before?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Yes, I am seriously saying designing a boring system that integrates downtime to complete is better than designing a boring system that requires an active effort to complete. Wanna know why? Nobody plays Darkfall for gathering Gathering could be the most awesomest thing in the world in Darkfall, and nobody would give a crap. That doesn't change the fact that a crafting system is integral to the sandbox environment they are going for.
Both the games you listed are for gamers who have little to no interest in a PvP combat oriented game. And to be honest, they both are boring as piss imo. Your not going to sell either games time/activity consuming gathering system attached to a game whose playerbase is built around competitive FPS PvP.
Yes, the majority of gamers play games to play the game. The game in Darkfall is not gathering. Which is why its better left as an activity for players to complete in what would otherwise be downtime... ala afk gathering.
Well you're thinking in too simplistic terms by thinking I want to manually make each swing. That's almost a worst form of tedium.
Simply: It should feel like a game, enjoyable in its own right, to gather.
If any activity in a game isn't enjoyable in its own right, why is it in the game at all? Why not remove it and be left with the game elements which are enjoyable?
Because people enjoy sitting down to a meal, watching the TV, taking a shower, running to the store, doing homework, etc etc etc and still advancing their characters stats or wealth. Gathering and crafting is a downtime activity, and it works fine that way... because DF isn't meant to be a purely crafting sandbox. It is, however, a sandbox... and removing gathering would destroy the immersion factor.
When they play the game, a Darkfall player doesn't want to spend their active time gathering... they'd rather be killing stuff.
I feel sorry for some of you who are so jaded with the mmo genre, that you find fault in every game that comes out. Even worse, you try to dissuade everyone else from playing these games as well. Thank you OP for posting this. I am downloading the client as we speak. I've been waiting so long to try this game.
I don't see how more advance you can make gathering, its just like it is in every game except theres a more limited amount of resources to gather
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
I don't know if anyone one mentioned this, but a good way to make crafting more meaningful is to have good rewards, a reason to harvest/craft in the first place(player created economy is a good one), and a consequence while harvesting stuff and/or crafting. I haven't played this game yet, but when I hear people talk about how to improve harvest/craft i think of Saga of Ryzom. That game has a well rounded crafting system. The player based economy forces it to be meaningful. the customizations within the harvest/craft system are enjoyable. The craft system gives reason to explore high level areas at low levels for better mats, my favorite thing to do personally. There are consequences while harvesting(the ground explodes, the source runs out) which can be prevented with teamwork! teamwork in harvesting is a cool idea. There are many good ideas to be had too. I guess just make it a little more challenging too? Just an idea about making a reason to not have "afk" harvesting and crafting since the last post was pretty directly related to what I'm thinking here.
Yay almost free trial.....now i can finally try a FFA pvp sandbox game.
Playing: Fallen Earth
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2 and Secret World
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Actually, more advanced crafting DOES require mob drops. Yeah, you can make simple shit off the stuff you gather off nodes, but let's see you forge a Keened Justicebringer that way.....not gonna happen.
Even just rare ingots...you can keep hitting the mine in your clan city (and competing for the resources there), or you can go out with a group, and kill some golems.
Besides...no one's forcing you to gather. Go red and kill gatherers, get your mats that way. Or head to an enemy territory, and kill THEIR gatherers....or simply buy your mats.
Why go herbing for mandrake?? Kill Akathars....you'll actually get MORE mandrake that way. Why go herbing for steedgrass?? Buy a mount, or kill someone off theirs.
There's more than the obvious method to accomplishing almost anything in this game. Use some imagination.
Honestly, with the sheer number of MMORPGs out there, a MMO would have to offer an incentive for me to spend my precious time evaluating their product (and most of time QAing and help devs fix by reporting bugs). They should be paying me for their half baked product that they are trying to hook more income streams over time. Yes, it's a business. And yes, they should make a profit. And seriously, whoever over there at the DF marketing department that came up with this half baked idea of charging a dollar ought to be fired or at least made to sit in the corner with a dunce hat for a week. The marketing manager that signed off on the idea should probably be let go, too. And the community manager that kept quite rather than piping up to beg and plead not letting this happen shouldn't keep his or her job either (nor would she want to with the negative uproar that this is going to cause). The competitive landscape simply could not tolerate such poorly thought out marketing scheme. This is just bad business. Heck, they probably lose more money processing the charges and having to deal with fraudulent charges than to have simply left it free. If they ever release any stats about this "promotion", I would not be at all surprised if it made history as one of the worst ever marketing campaign. I'm sorry to say this but I'd rank it up there with selling a life time membership to Tabula Rasa after it has peaked. :P
yeah, i could use some help. i got a quest to kill 3 ork players.
yeah, i could use some help. i got a quest to kill 3 ork players.
I'm a Mirdain. hehe. But you can come try and kill my allies. Good luck ;]
Sure. Tons of blackberry jam a few months back.
Replicating the drudgery of life is not the reason people play games. Interesting interactions are. Being able to observe a system, interact with it, then observe the results, and in doing so learn which interactions work better than others. This is the core of what drives players to play games. It's the core of what engages players. Because it's the core of how humans learn (and our minds like learning.)
The root problem here is being prevented from doing anything else. If it was a simple decision (clicking a tree) but combined with a variety of other decisions, it'd be fine (that's the recipe for most good games: an interesting combination of many simple decisions.) if it was a fire-and-forget decision which didn't prevent you from doing other things, that'd also solve it (like my herb suggestion.)
Of course some solutions simply make gathering more enjoyable/less tedious, while others additionally solve my original critique which is that the game's design lends itself to a $1 trial. My herb suggestion doesn't limit the option for players to AFK the task, but simply adds additional rewards for the players who would do other things (thus gaining skills/stats) while the herb grew (which reduces the comparitive value of AFK-gathering.)
Also fwiw I'm not against "offline activities" gaining you skill or items while you're offline, but I think it's poor design to force players to remain online (periodically not AFK) during such activities. I dunno...there's hundreds/thousands of other games that doesn't fall into these degenerative game mechanics, so I'm still a little confused that the DF playerbase has been this zealous in defending DF's gather mechanics. I expected some zealous defence, but I also expected some "yeah it sucks it'd be better if it wasn't in the game" or "...be better if it was improved."
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You might wanna tell Square Enix that then, since FFX1 also has a $5 trial. (On the counter in physical CD form at EB games, BTW)
You've missed the point entirely. Thanks for making me laugh.
.. { MOD EDIT: Language } ..
Also....You either want to play the game, or you don't. AV isn't going to beg anyone to play.
I personally think all this silliness over the $1 fee for the Trial is just forum banter...
In the end, it is an honest to goodness Trial that the general public can now participate in for DarkFall. Something that I've been harping about for them to get implemented since October of 2008.
Sure, it would have been even better (for those not currently playing) if it was totally free.
Sure, it would have been better if it was for more than 7 days.
I personally think it's a decent start from Aventurine, and I think they deserve a bit of kudos for providing it.
(Yeah, I know... I've probably officially lost my skeptic/hater label now).
As an aside...
Has anyone thought that Aventurine decided to charge $1 for their Trial for the specific reason we are now witnessing?
Meaning that it has created it's own buzz and advertising for said Trial. Aventurine has done some bizarre things in the past... it wouldn't surprise me if this was one of their better decisions in the marketing arena. Just saying.
Everything AV does creates a buzz about DF - although I doubt that's the developers intention, it just comes out that way.