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TERA Plagiarized Lineage 3

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  • rhinokrhinok Member UncommonPosts: 1,798
    Originally posted by r3zs1ckn3ss


    This has got to be one of the longest MMO threads with the longest of quotes I've seen in a whiles. I don't even care who did what anymore. It is my understanding that a verdict is still up in the air however Tera will still be launched and $1.7 million obviously isn't going to throw their schedule off. So now we just wait on the first beta.

    A verdict is not up in the air.  They were found guilty.  They're appealing, but they're still guilty until that ruling is overturned (if ever).

    ~Ripper

  • bartoni33bartoni33 Member RarePosts: 2,044

    I'm going to throw my 2p out here:

    1) I can understand where Baggs is coming from. He believes (I think) that since the code or whatever was designed in the minds and imagination of human people that even though they were hired and paid by NCSoft that when they were let go anything that they designed for NCSoft should revert to them since NCS did not want either them or their code. But when it started to become a viable game NCS wants in on the action. IP's can be very tricky sometimes!

    2) People will sign anything to get a job! I'm not a scientist or Tech Guy or whatever but you could NEVER talk me into signing ANYTHING that would restrict me in any way during and especially after I left! Seriously? You would sign a contract saying that you can't work for x amount of years in your chosen field that you spent years of college and money to learn? Money talks I guess!

    Bartoni's Law definition: As an Internet discussion grows volatile, the probability of a comparison involving Donald Trump approaches 1.


  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    m park was sentenced to 1.5 year in prison and 2 year probation,since he didnt respect probabation(according to the judge)

    ncsoft can (and probably will)sue mr park because he didnt respect his 2 year probabation.one thing is sure those 4 arent out of court for a very long while!

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005
    Originally posted by bartoni33


    I'm going to throw my 2p out here:
    1) I can understand where Baggs is coming from. He believes (I think) that since the code or whatever was designed in the minds and imagination of human people that even though they were hired and paid by NCSoft that when they were let go anything that they designed for NCSoft should revert to them since NCS did not want either them or their code. But when it started to become a viable game NCS wants in on the action. IP's can be very tricky sometimes!
    2) People will sign anything to get a job! I'm not a scientist or Tech Guy or whatever but you could NEVER talk me into signing ANYTHING that would restrict me in any way during and especially after I left! Seriously? You would sign a contract saying that you can't work for x amount of years in your chosen field that you spent years of college and money to learn? Money talks I guess!

     

    For as much as I would like it to be so, gaming companies are very ruthless regarding this, anything you do with work tools and/or during work ours belongs to them this is the way it has been for years, as a programmer you have absolutely no rights when you start in one of these big companies, I for one had to sign several NDA's and pretty much give my rights to anything I write that might even be related to what I do at work, there are a few loopholes around this, but most of the time you are pretty much owned by the hiring company.

    image

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662

    Seems the ones complaining can't read...

    The court has not made a final judgment! what there is linked in the first page and by some others is only a part of the court it's not all.

    Just wait and see what it will be the whole fine they will have to pay/do before spouting out assumptions.


  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005
    Originally posted by Baggs

    Originally posted by rav3n2

    Originally posted by bartoni33


    I'm going to throw my 2p out here:
    1) I can understand where Baggs is coming from. He believes (I think) that since the code or whatever was designed in the minds and imagination of human people that even though they were hired and paid by NCSoft that when they were let go anything that they designed for NCSoft should revert to them since NCS did not want either them or their code. But when it started to become a viable game NCS wants in on the action. IP's can be very tricky sometimes!
    2) People will sign anything to get a job! I'm not a scientist or Tech Guy or whatever but you could NEVER talk me into signing ANYTHING that would restrict me in any way during and especially after I left! Seriously? You would sign a contract saying that you can't work for x amount of years in your chosen field that you spent years of college and money to learn? Money talks I guess!

     

    For as much as I would like it to be so, gaming companies are very ruthless regarding this, anything you do with work tools and/or during work ours belongs to them this is the way it has been for years, as a programmer you have absolutely no rights when you start in one of these big companies, I for one had to sign several NDA's and pretty much give my rights to anything I write that might even be related to what I do at work, there are a few loopholes around this, but most of the time you are pretty much owned by the hiring company.

     

    No shit Sherlock...

     

    But you wouldn't wake up one morning, decide you don't want to work for a company anymore and just take a HDD with you on the way out.

    They must have treated you like a piece of shit, or tried to fuck you up somehow in order for you to act like that.

     

     

     

    Also, nobody has answered.

    If somebody steals your car, are you just going to ask the court to either put him in jail or pay you money?

     

    It obviously applies to anything stolen from you, you would want it back.

    Unless -guess what- it was something invaluable.

     

    Apparently, judging from the current verdict, BHS was found guilty in court for stealing something from NCsoft but NCsoft doesn't want it back !

    Hmmmm.

    If something like that doesn't smell fishy to you, then i don't know what to say, i give up.

     

    Stick a fork in me, i'm done.

     

    Laws are different for software than for material stuff like Cars, I saw this happen at Lionhead with the guys from Media Molecule they created Rag Doll kung fu during lunch hours at LH and after they left they had this massive battle with microsoft because they wanted to take the code with them yet MS contracts are made so they own everything you do sometimes even outside work hours, they did win in the end and LH did not take a dime of Ragdoll kung fu.

    image

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    digital or actual properety or right dont know the term in english. ncsoft ,and countless amount of mmo maker are being sued why

    because a genious in the 80s or 90 dont recall exact date .patended what every computer user do today everything

    it was a chimera back then but some smart ass said lets patent this on the off hand chance it acrtually become reality

    the group sold the patent to a bunch of other guys .you know what the the sole work of that group

    suing firm for copyright style infringement(microsoft was sueed by them,microsoft didnt bother they paid and now are ok)

    can you imagine that firm can sue any company etc etc etc in the world.

    only reason they dont suis linux is because its a shadow os.

    oh it exist you can see it but its not the work of one company(even tho a lot wished it was and are trying very hard to

    copyright it !

    the fact is linux is a shadow os .and open source everybody polish it etc

    the only reason why linux isnt bigger then ms  or apple os right now is because of only one reason

    there is not some kind of os builder easy to use with tip like use this for streaming use this to play mmo

    but its only a mather of time before sutch a open source tool exist once that happen

    it will spell the demise of other os .since not one person own linux everybody own linux lol!

  • LurvLurv Member UncommonPosts: 409

    *Sticks fork in you*

    Meh. Still about medium rare.

    Anyways. They're sued. Great. Now where the #$%@ is my game?

    Getting too old for this $&17!

  • Kaliber13Kaliber13 Member Posts: 39
    Originally posted by drbaltazar


    poster 98 !a game using main stuff from another (in this case ncsoft)never work smoothly why
    because a lot of stuff wasnt in the game when they left and the stuff that isnt there will have to be patched
    .its like asking ferary to make a nice car their builder go to lada with the plan from the new car without material
    and all other spec.yes they will try to make that car but it wont be a joy ride when you hop in the car
    it will bhe more like a tractor ride ,when you plow the field.same thing for tera will happens.then they ll find all kind of excuse like of we had issue etc of caurse you had issue lol you ll have 50% more issue then if you would have made your own !
    i couldnt care less anyway i wont play it ,and im not the only one that feel this way .

    What are u talkin about man? I dont think anyone understood that...

  • SafaiaSafaia Member Posts: 12

    I disagree with that court decision for 2 reasons:

    A programmer who leaves a company has his experience as capital to make finding a new job easy? According to that law they have not. They are not allowed to use their experience to program something that has the potential to compete with their former company. They are not allowed to use what THEY have developed and their former boss refused to use. Tell me, how sick is that? Programmers leaving a company have the option to do something completely different or do what they know best and break the law.

    That is like disallowing a mason to build a house after he has built the first one.

    At a point, all MMORPG's use thesame techniques. A lot of them use external built graphic engines like Granny or the RenderWare Engine. So it is natural that they use similar structures in their code. Most MMORPG's use a race/class/abilities structure and have a leveling system. They have values for strength, dextery, intelligence and constitution. Someone who has programmed such a system can easily implement another one without taking the code from the first. Plus the second one is better in most cases because he avoids the mistakes he made in the first one.

  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,883

    Well if NC takes control of the game i won't even bother with it at that point.

    image

    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856
    Originally posted by r3zs1ckn3ss


    *Sticks fork in you*
    Meh. Still about medium rare.


    Anyways. They're sued. Great. Now where the #$%@ is my game?

     

    ncsoft will ask bluehole studio andthat gang for royaltys for that game once they are found guilty

    its the whole reason for suing them they wont ask just for the paltry million its costed them more then that in a quater to dev.

    lineage 3 code lol.i wonder how it will end.i do hope korean court are exemplary on this mather and chose a ruling that will protect game maker like ncsoft!they need to be protected from all the shark

    cant make a game!then dont be a game devlopper it cost a lot to dev a mmo.dev a new chess game instead for facebook

    gees!why  bluehole and ex-ncsoft did this is beyond me.it must have been a freakkingly good program to be worth being

    plagiarized!

  • ScalebaneScalebane Member UncommonPosts: 1,883
    Originally posted by drbaltazar

    Originally posted by r3zs1ckn3ss


    *Sticks fork in you*
    Meh. Still about medium rare.


    Anyways. They're sued. Great. Now where the #$%@ is my game?

     

    ncsoft will ask bluehole studio andthat gang for royaltys for that game once they are found guilty

    its the whole reason for suing them they wont ask just for the paltry million its costed them more then that in a quater to dev.

    lineage 3 code lol.i wonder how it will end.i do hope korean court are exemplary on this mather and chose a ruling that will protect game maker like ncsoft!they need to be protected from all the shark

    cant make a game!then dont be a game devlopper it cost a lot to dev a mmo.dev a new chess game instead for facebook

    gees!why  bluehole and ex-ncsoft did this is beyond me.it must have been a freakkingly good program to be worth being

    plagiarized!

     

    Perhaps they did it because NC treats their employees like shit? who knows right heh. (not saying its right to take code, but then again i find it funny people condemning them for taking code when everyone in this topic probably illegally downloads music n such)

    Anyways if NC gets to own the game they will just screw it up so i won't bother with it, they are better off just taking some cash and leaving it at that.

    I'm just hoping they change the code and won't have to sell out to NCFail

    image

    "The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
    - Lewis Thomas

  • sschruppsschrupp Member UncommonPosts: 682
    Originally posted by Baggs

    Originally posted by ProfRed


    NICE!  I thought... how could a country let someone blatantly steal a games source code and make a new game for profit with it.  Maybe NCSoft will buy up Tera and release it...
     
    The thieves deserves everything coming to them.


     

     

    Get your facts straight.

    Those people who you call thieves were in fact FIRED from NCsoft.

    Would you leave the code you put hard work for months if not years behind for someone to exploit and make millions of it?

     

    No you wouldn't.

     

     

    What i just read is simply outrageous, i will never buy anything published by NCsoft no matter how good it might look or in fact be.

     

    I'm sure somewhere in all these pages someone has already said this, but just in case...

    When you work for a company it's standard practice that any work you do, including ideas, is property of the company, not you. Any coding done for the game belongs to NCSoft, not the employees who did the programming. In fact many jobs make you sign a waiver stating that you can not legally work in another job using the same skills or in direct competition for a certain length of time.

    I'm a programmer and thought this kind of sucked when I first began, but after a number of years you just accept it.

  • jrs77jrs77 Member Posts: 419

    If you work for a company and code something while working for them, you are not allowed to take anything done so far with you, when you leave. And that only includes written code stored on a HDD or disk, aswell as other forms of media like papers etc.

    You still have all this ideas and solutions you came up with in your head tho, and you can't delete your memory unfortunately.

    So, what the developers, who got fired from NC did, they started all over again from scratch, but they had all those stuff inside their head, which they used ofc.

    If NC is stoopid enough, to fire all those creative people, then it's their own fault. If anything, they should've doubled their sallary instead, to keep them and their "brainpower".

    General ideas are plagiarized every day, and aslong as you don't actually copy them 1:1 there's nothing hindering you from doing it. There's no laws preventing anyone from using general ideas, and that's all the devs of TERA did: they took all the general ideas with them, they had in their heads, without actually stealing something like a HDD or disk with the code stored on it.

     

    Now, the korean court has made a verdict, that 7 former NCSoft-employees, who showed some of the sourcecode to a japanese company during a job-interview has to pay 1.7 Million USD to NCSoft, for violating intellectual property, but this is not the last call.

    Bluehole Studios tho, is not the one that got sued by NCSoft. That's false information. It's just some employees of Bluehole Studios.

  • WisebutCruelWisebutCruel Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by jrs77


    If you work for a company and code something while working for them, you are not allowed to take anything done so far with you, when you leave. And that only includes written code stored on a HDD or disk, aswell as other forms of media like papers etc.
    You still have all this ideas and solutions you came up with in your head tho, and you can't delete your memory unfortunately.
    So, what the developers, who got fired from NC did, they started all over again from scratch, but they had all those stuff inside their head, which they used ofc.
    If NC is stoopid enough, to fire all those creative people, then it's their own fault. If anything, they should've doubled their sallary instead, to keep them and their "brainpower".
    General ideas are plagiarized every day, and aslong as you don't actually copy them 1:1 there's nothing hindering you from doing it. There's no laws preventing anyone from using general ideas, and that's all the devs of TERA did: they took all the general ideas with them, they had in their heads, without actually stealing something like a HDD or disk with the code stored on it.

    They used the specific code from Lineage 3, bit for bit. Noones memory is that good, which is why they lost. Sorry.

  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005
    Originally posted by jrs77


    If you work for a company and code something while working for them, you are not allowed to take anything done so far with you, when you leave.
    But, and now comes the tricky one, you still have all this ideas and solutions you came up with in your head. You can't delete your memory.
    So, what the developers, who got fired from NC did, they started all over again from scratch, but they had all those stuff inside their head, which they used and I wouldn't call that stealing or anything like that.
    If NC is stoopid enough, to fire all those creative people, then it's their own fault. If anything, they should've doubled their sallary instead, to keep them and their "brainpower".
    General ideas are plagiarized every day, and aslong as you don't actually copy them 1:1 there's nothing hindering you from doing it. There's no laws preventing anyone from using general ideas, and that's all the devs of TERA did: they took all the general ideas with them, they had in their heads, without actually stealing something like a HDD or disk with the code stored on it.

     

    While that is true about you taking your ideas this is, in most cases predicted by companies on their agreements, most if not all games companies will make you sign an agreement that will stop you from recreating technology you have researched or developed in their company at some other company, so lets say, you come up with a new lighting model that is ultra fast and allows for thousands of dynamic lights with no frame drop, you develop some apps and a framework at company A.

    If you then leave you are not allowed to recreate that same technology to use at company B for  X amount of time, this usually means one or two years or usually until the project you were originally working is released. That is the way it works for most of the time, this is however a very unreal scenario, if you came up with such system you would be on a lead position, with alot of cash and more likely than not doing more talks and coordinating your own team than programming.

    It is my opinion that in this case and its blatant that the developers got their inspiration for TERA on L3, artstyle etc.. and there is no harm in that, because a company cant own anime style characters, just like a company cant own the rights to E =MC^2 , unless they actually put code that was exactly written at NCSoft and then put on TERA its unlikely that, there is a basis for conviction other than just circunstancial evidence, they left  NCSoft and a "similar" project was created at a competition lets sue them.

    I dont know however what evidence there were against them, but it seems like a 1million USD fine is more like a slap on the wrist "dont do that again" sort of thing.

    image

  • jrs77jrs77 Member Posts: 419


    Originally posted by WisebutCruel
    They used the specific code from Lineage 3, bit for bit. Noones memory is that good, which is why they lost. Sorry.

     
    I added to my previous post, while you were responding.
    Get your facts together, as Bluehole isn't the one who got sued actually.
  • RavenRaven Member UncommonPosts: 2,005
    Originally posted by WisebutCruel

    Originally posted by jrs77


    If you work for a company and code something while working for them, you are not allowed to take anything done so far with you, when you leave. And that only includes written code stored on a HDD or disk, aswell as other forms of media like papers etc.
    You still have all this ideas and solutions you came up with in your head tho, and you can't delete your memory unfortunately.
    So, what the developers, who got fired from NC did, they started all over again from scratch, but they had all those stuff inside their head, which they used ofc.
    If NC is stoopid enough, to fire all those creative people, then it's their own fault. If anything, they should've doubled their sallary instead, to keep them and their "brainpower".
    General ideas are plagiarized every day, and aslong as you don't actually copy them 1:1 there's nothing hindering you from doing it. There's no laws preventing anyone from using general ideas, and that's all the devs of TERA did: they took all the general ideas with them, they had in their heads, without actually stealing something like a HDD or disk with the code stored on it.

    They used the specific code from Lineage 3, bit for bit. Noones memory is that good, which is why they lost. Sorry.

     

    I can tell your not a programmer, coming up with new systems is very hard, once you understand the concept on how to implement them however its very simple to recreate them, you do not need to memorize every single line of code not even any lines of code for that matter to recreate a piece of software, you just need to understand the concept behind it and then translate it to whatever coding style your used to.

    If these guys worked on the L3 project on a specific area they will have to understand the concepts and have the ability recreate them, furthermore the only way it would be possible for a coder to recreate bit by bit of such a large project would be to have it side by side and copy and paste even refactoring a piece of code a programmer will always change something, make it better, or add things that when it was coded the first time he just didnt predict he would need.

    Any programmer that relies on memorizing code to complete a task has already failed and would never be working on a games company.

    image

  • ValentinaValentina Member RarePosts: 2,077

    It doesn't matter, they didn't have to pay very much, anyway.

  • WisebutCruelWisebutCruel Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by Valentina


    It doesn't matter, they didn't have to pay very much, anyway.


    That makes theft acceptable, then?

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856
    Originally posted by Safaia


    I disagree with that court decision for 2 reasons:
    A programmer who leaves a company has his experience as capital to make finding a new job easy? According to that law they have not. They are not allowed to use their experience to program something that has the potential to compete with their former company. They are not allowed to use what THEY have developed and their former boss refused to use. Tell me, how sick is that? Programmers leaving a company have the option to do something completely different or do what they know best and break the law.

    That is like disallowing a mason to build a house after he has built the first one.
    At a point, all MMORPG's use thesame techniques. A lot of them use external built graphic engines like Granny or the RenderWare Engine. So it is natural that they use similar structures in their code. Most MMORPG's use a race/class/abilities structure and have a leveling system. They have values for strength, dextery, intelligence and constitution. Someone who has programmed such a system can easily implement another one without taking the code from the first. Plus the second one is better in most cases because he avoids the mistakes he made in the first one.

     

    ok lets reverse this!why do you go work for x,y,z company if its to just stab them in the back later .open your own freaking firm at the start!not after !when you go in you sing on the sheet whatever they want you dont want to sign crawl back in the place where you came from the exiasting firm couldnt care less since they receive 100 of cv a day to do the exact job you were often and on top of that they ll do it because they love to do it.only kind of people that do what blue hole guys did are those that are tired of working and want to stay home!

  • TsytaTsyta Member Posts: 3

    what part of working on fucking something, getting fired by a company which doesnt want you to get credit for your own work, making a new company and continuing your own work is theft?

     

    maybe someone should steal your hard earned car and set your house ablaze then call you a theif, then you have to pay him for your house and your car.

     

    you dont even understand whats going on in this case you all can just make little statements thinking your even gonna tarnish this games reputation.

     

    T.E.R.A will destory anything NCsoft has planned, because they were main pillars of NCsofts success.

    Inspirational Evil

  • WisebutCruelWisebutCruel Member Posts: 1,089
    Originally posted by Tsyta


    what part of working on fucking something, getting fired by a company which doesnt want you to get credit for your own work, making a new company and continuing your own work is theft?
     
    What part do you not fucking understand? You create it while working for someone else, it is THEIR work, not yours.
     
    maybe someone should steal your hard earned car and set your house ablaze then call you a theif, then you have to pay him for your house and your car.
     You really need to work on analogies, because that one fails so hard it's ridiculous.
    you dont even understand whats going on in this case you all can just make little statements thinking your even gonna tarnish this games reputation.
     The only one understanding nothing is you, and you revel in your own ignorance.
    T.E.R.A will destory anything NCsoft has planned, because they were main pillars of NCsofts success.
    Seriously doubt it. Once again, someone holds up a supposed Messiah of mmos, only to find out a little later from now it's just another piece of turd.

     

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856

    poster 179 when you get hired by those guys they make you sign wall of paper basicly saying

    efverything here is owned by x company ,everything you make while on our assignement  while being paid by ncsoft

    is the sole property of ncsoft ,you cannot use,copy ,bring with or the whole nine year  partial code or full code of said things

    if you refuse to sign those parper saying they own you till you leave or the trow you out(in this case the later)

    they ll just refuse to hire you TO MAKE THEIR OWN PROJECT!not your project,you give idea to ncsoft because ncsoft is PAYING

    YOU TO THINK ABOUT THE GAME ITS YOUR JOB!

    YOU DONT OWN ANYTHING YOU COULD HAVE CODED THE WHOLE GAME BYYOURSELF IN YOUR BASEMENT

    BUT IF YOU ARE BEING PAID AND HAVE SIGNED A CONTRACT AND SAID YES TO ALL CONDITION

    YOU ARE THEIRS TO THE SAME EXTENT L1,L2,L3,GUILDWARS,AION,ETCETCETC

    they own you !every game maker work in the same fashion,same thing fro intel,amd,ibm

    etcyou want to make stuff ?no problem open your own outfit make game designer sign your own charte sue those employe your self !the system is fair the one supplying the money and the paycheck should be the one reapping the reward

    some feel slighted because they thot they just had found an investor in their idea!ya right ask the million of people about that

    it takes reputation to go somwewhere,check richard garriott hes in another boat no issue

    ask a noob nobody frsh from college to do the same on most occasion he wont if hes not in a techno city like montreal,los angeles shangai,etc!its the way it is .

    you want to make your own game good we need new game !but do it with YOUR OWN FREAKING FOUND INVESTOR MONEY

    you dont sign sheet binding you to a game maker if you plan to do your own thing once you found code you need in ncsoft library

    it is plagia at the minimum.for me i call it stealling!and in some country the cut the hands of thief!

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