Instances are just terrible. I thought at first they were a neat idea, but I've come to realize that good game design can undermine any benefit of instancing.
Instances are one thing, a lazy tool for lazy developers.
In Dark Age of Camelot, there were no issues camping spawns, or getting into fights with others for a super rare drop, because the game was designed well. There were many places for people to go, loot wasn't end all be all, people had other interesting things to do than camp a dungeon.
Even Dragon Raids were public. Bring as many as you want. Doesn't that make the encounter just a zerg rush? Nope, you had to use tactics, because the Dragon would adjust depending on how many people was attacking it. It had anti zerg attacks, like a giant fireball. Worried about people "stealing your kill" how? If they weren't part of your raid group, how were they going to get to the dragon? Not by themselves surely. If a rival alliance comes and tries to take the Dragon the same day... oh wait, that has almost never happened, because there were other important things to be done like defending the frontier, so everyone wasn't camping the same content.
Instances are lazy, pure and simple. Vanguard had some revolutionary ideas for dealing with overcrowding in dungeons, but sadly they were neverrealized.
Quests can be plenty epic WITHOUT instances. I have seen them.
Nothing removes the massive feel, or the exploration feel, than finding a cave, and it saying "you don't have the proper quest to enter here". Or going into a place to find adventure and adventurers, and being in there by myself, knowing there are dozens of others in there too that I could be grouping with, but I can't see them.
Though I will say that there seems to be a gross over-representation of instanced content in most MMOs lately. Personally I prefer little to no instancing, then again, I much prefer sandbox MMOs. For a themepark MMO on the other hand, it has it's uses of giving players/groups their own little isolated areas to play by themselves.
I'd say it is all in how they are implemented by the developers. You can make a game with really annoying instances that make players hate you, or you can make some that have acceptable uses.
Well that's how it is for you and me, and even the majority of gamers (who just want fun.) But clearly this thread indicates that of the MMORPG players out there, there's at least a solid minority of them who strongly prefer a non-instanced game.
No doubt. Especially in games with world PvP... That way the gankers and griefers aren't separated from their potential victims... ^^
Instances are just one method among many of managing the various technical dynamics involved. If they flow naturally with the rest of the game, then they tend to work out.
I'd say it is all in how they are implemented by the developers. You can make a game with really annoying instances that make players hate you, or you can make some that have acceptable uses.
Well that's how it is for you and me, and even the majority of gamers (who just want fun.) But clearly this thread indicates that of the MMORPG players out there, there's at least a solid minority of them who strongly prefer a non-instanced game.
No doubt. Especially in games with world PvP... That way the gankers and griefers aren't separated from their potential victims... ^^
Instances are just one method among many of managing the various technical dynamics involved. If they flow naturally with the rest of the game, then they tend to work out.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances.
So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that.
I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances. So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that. I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances. So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that. I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I suppose I should say "cannot do it WELL". For example, a scripted sequence that spawn N adds may be tuned to the number of tanks in the group, and if there are 100 tanks, the scripted sequence won't have the intended effect.
Content being trivial with no challenge if you don't limit the number of players in the instance.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances. So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that. I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I suppose I should say "cannot do it WELL". For example, a scripted sequence that spawn N adds may be tuned to the number of tanks in the group, and if there are 100 tanks, the scripted sequence won't have the intended effect.
Content being trivial with no challenge if you don't limit the number of players in the instance.
Ah I see.
No it is possible. EverQuest, the game that invented raiding, didn't have instances and still had epic boss encounters. In Dark Age of Camelot, if you try to tackle the Dragon with 200 people, it will fly up into the sky and fireball people, so you have to carefully rotate the groups attacking it and use various strategies, just like you do in modern MMOs.
With specific scripted encounters, once you find the trick to doing it, it kind of loses any gained complexity from instancing.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances. So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that. I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I suppose I should say "cannot do it WELL". For example, a scripted sequence that spawn N adds may be tuned to the number of tanks in the group, and if there are 100 tanks, the scripted sequence won't have the intended effect.
Content being trivial with no challenge if you don't limit the number of players in the instance.
Ah I see.
No it is possible. EverQuest, the game that invented raiding, didn't have instances and still had epic boss encounters. In Dark Age of Camelot, if you try to tackle the Dragon with 200 people, it will fly up into the sky and fireball people, so you have to carefully rotate the groups attacking it and use various strategies, just like you do in modern MMOs.
With specific scripted encounters, once you find the trick to doing it, it kind of loses any gained complexity from instancing.
But the problem is that you cannot control WHO will be at the boss if it is not in an instance. Plus only ONE group can do the dragon at any time. That won't work for a big server with many groups wanting to do the content.
Plus the developers have to script for contingencies like what if 100 people show up for every encounter. The resources is better used to make it work for the designated number of people. Take all the 5 man content in WOW. It will take a monumenutal effort to refit them for every possible group size.
And if you have the boss disappears, or enrage whenever there are more than 5 people, you may as well just restrict the group size to be 5 and use an instance.
And if you have the boss disappears, or enrage whenever there are more than 5 people, you may as well just restrict the group size to be 5 and use an instance.
Works for me. I don't want my PVE encounters to be interruptible by some wandering numpty, especially the highly tactical ones geared to a large group of people. Instances provide a controlled environment in which to stage encounters with a highly customizable level of challenge.
Can't do that in the open world.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances. So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that. I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
Simple answer to that is some of my past experiences in non instanced boss fights. There are WAY too many people who get their jollies from messing things up for other people. Instances prevent outside players from doing that.
And if you have the boss disappears, or enrage whenever there are more than 5 people, you may as well just restrict the group size to be 5 and use an instance.
Works for me. I don't want my PVE encounters to be interruptible by some wandering numpty, especially the highly tactical ones geared to a large group of people. Instances provide a controlled environment in which to stage encounters with a highly customizable level of challenge.
Can't do that in the open world.
Then maybe controlled environments for staged encounters are not all that important. Perhaps, boss mobs spawn in different places at random intervals.
Remember, not everything is about the boss mob,and you can make getting to and staying in the area of a boss mob so challenging (with frequent respawns of dungeon trash) that only persistent well-planned grouping can achieve that.
Spontaneous, dynamic free range gameplay trump any boss encounters or staged instances.
Definitely dislike them. The world just seems so much more REAL without them. I don't mind annoyences you get with them at the end of the day. Also I'm quite casual and I hate the way most instances are implemented where you need to spend ages searching through the team and you HAVE to play through the whole thing to get the rewards.
Playing: Xsyon. Played: Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
Originally posted by Frumgarr Ah I see. No it is possible. EverQuest, the game that invented raiding, didn't have instances and still had epic boss encounters. In Dark Age of Camelot, if you try to tackle the Dragon with 200 people, it will fly up into the sky and fireball people, so you have to carefully rotate the groups attacking it and use various strategies, just like you do in modern MMOs. With specific scripted encounters, once you find the trick to doing it, it kind of loses any gained complexity from instancing.
Possible, but not possible well. EQs epic bosses are not as nice as an instanced epic boss because it will either be too hard or too easy. It will be screwed up by other players, it will be less believeable. EQ type epic bosses lead people to grind, whereas instanced bosses steer you away from grinding.. Pointing to EQ or even Daoc bosses as being the epitome is just silly. Not to mention that many people think that open world spawn of daoc was kind of lame and instances can even improve that.
Its not a mere example of complexity, theres more to it.
I do not think I prefer instances as my method of MMO gaming. I think that I much prefer being able to fight over boss encounters. I think that it is far better to have something realistic as opposed to just easily accessible. But that may just be one man's misguided opinion.
And if you have the boss disappears, or enrage whenever there are more than 5 people, you may as well just restrict the group size to be 5 and use an instance.
Works for me. I don't want my PVE encounters to be interruptible by some wandering numpty, especially the highly tactical ones geared to a large group of people. Instances provide a controlled environment in which to stage encounters with a highly customizable level of challenge.
Can't do that in the open world.
Then maybe controlled environments for staged encounters are not all that important. Perhaps, boss mobs spawn in different places at random intervals.
Remember, not everything is about the boss mob,and you can make getting to and staying in the area of a boss mob so challenging (with frequent respawns of dungeon trash) that only persistent well-planned grouping can achieve that.
Spontaneous, dynamic free range gameplay trump any boss encounters or staged instances.
I haven't seen a free dynamically spawn boss has as interesting fights as scripted controlled ones. The real interesting fights also use the environment, and not just the boss mobs. You can't do that if you are randomly spawn at different places.
Also, if it spawn at random times, people may not be able to do the encounter whenever they want. And if you have it spawn all the time, large grps can form to wait for it and make it too easy.
I do not think I prefer instances as my method of MMO gaming. I think that I much prefer being able to fight over boss encounters. I think that it is far better to have something realistic as opposed to just easily accessible. But that may just be one man's misguided opinion.
I will take easily accessible any day. It is a GAME. It is not meant to be realistic anyway. If you can believe fireballs and magic shields, you can believe magically teleporting to get you and only your group inside the dungeon.
There is nothing wrong with having instances. It is all in the implementation of such a system. Much like any problem that is posted on this web site it is not a black and white solution. Great ideas are ruined through bad implementation. Just like in programming you can accomplish the same goal in numerous ways but not all are equal for code flexibility and speed of execution.
My personal opinion is that instances should be used sparingly to challenge the player on an individual level. I like the idea that I completed a challenge alone without the help or influence of anyone else. It was in fact all me to complete the task.
Comments
Instances are just terrible. I thought at first they were a neat idea, but I've come to realize that good game design can undermine any benefit of instancing.
Instances are one thing, a lazy tool for lazy developers.
In Dark Age of Camelot, there were no issues camping spawns, or getting into fights with others for a super rare drop, because the game was designed well. There were many places for people to go, loot wasn't end all be all, people had other interesting things to do than camp a dungeon.
Even Dragon Raids were public. Bring as many as you want. Doesn't that make the encounter just a zerg rush? Nope, you had to use tactics, because the Dragon would adjust depending on how many people was attacking it. It had anti zerg attacks, like a giant fireball. Worried about people "stealing your kill" how? If they weren't part of your raid group, how were they going to get to the dragon? Not by themselves surely. If a rival alliance comes and tries to take the Dragon the same day... oh wait, that has almost never happened, because there were other important things to be done like defending the frontier, so everyone wasn't camping the same content.
Instances are lazy, pure and simple. Vanguard had some revolutionary ideas for dealing with overcrowding in dungeons, but sadly they were neverrealized.
Quests can be plenty epic WITHOUT instances. I have seen them.
Nothing removes the massive feel, or the exploration feel, than finding a cave, and it saying "you don't have the proper quest to enter here". Or going into a place to find adventure and adventurers, and being in there by myself, knowing there are dozens of others in there too that I could be grouping with, but I can't see them.
Highly depends on the game.
Though I will say that there seems to be a gross over-representation of instanced content in most MMOs lately. Personally I prefer little to no instancing, then again, I much prefer sandbox MMOs. For a themepark MMO on the other hand, it has it's uses of giving players/groups their own little isolated areas to play by themselves.
Well that's how it is for you and me, and even the majority of gamers (who just want fun.) But clearly this thread indicates that of the MMORPG players out there, there's at least a solid minority of them who strongly prefer a non-instanced game.
No doubt. Especially in games with world PvP... That way the gankers and griefers aren't separated from their potential victims... ^^
Instances are just one method among many of managing the various technical dynamics involved. If they flow naturally with the rest of the game, then they tend to work out.
Well that's how it is for you and me, and even the majority of gamers (who just want fun.) But clearly this thread indicates that of the MMORPG players out there, there's at least a solid minority of them who strongly prefer a non-instanced game.
No doubt. Especially in games with world PvP... That way the gankers and griefers aren't separated from their potential victims... ^^
Instances are just one method among many of managing the various technical dynamics involved. If they flow naturally with the rest of the game, then they tend to work out.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances.
And yet MMOs existed without instances for years. Most consider the golden age of MMOs to have been BEFORE instances were around. EverQuest, Ultima ONline, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot. All amazing games, none with instances.
So? And games existed without 3D graphics for years too but no one wants to go back to that.
I can't see how you can do a nice scripted dungeon boss fight without instances.
hate them
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I suppose I should say "cannot do it WELL". For example, a scripted sequence that spawn N adds may be tuned to the number of tanks in the group, and if there are 100 tanks, the scripted sequence won't have the intended effect.
Content being trivial with no challenge if you don't limit the number of players in the instance.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I suppose I should say "cannot do it WELL". For example, a scripted sequence that spawn N adds may be tuned to the number of tanks in the group, and if there are 100 tanks, the scripted sequence won't have the intended effect.
Content being trivial with no challenge if you don't limit the number of players in the instance.
Ah I see.
No it is possible. EverQuest, the game that invented raiding, didn't have instances and still had epic boss encounters. In Dark Age of Camelot, if you try to tackle the Dragon with 200 people, it will fly up into the sky and fireball people, so you have to carefully rotate the groups attacking it and use various strategies, just like you do in modern MMOs.
With specific scripted encounters, once you find the trick to doing it, it kind of loses any gained complexity from instancing.
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
I suppose I should say "cannot do it WELL". For example, a scripted sequence that spawn N adds may be tuned to the number of tanks in the group, and if there are 100 tanks, the scripted sequence won't have the intended effect.
Content being trivial with no challenge if you don't limit the number of players in the instance.
Ah I see.
No it is possible. EverQuest, the game that invented raiding, didn't have instances and still had epic boss encounters. In Dark Age of Camelot, if you try to tackle the Dragon with 200 people, it will fly up into the sky and fireball people, so you have to carefully rotate the groups attacking it and use various strategies, just like you do in modern MMOs.
With specific scripted encounters, once you find the trick to doing it, it kind of loses any gained complexity from instancing.
But the problem is that you cannot control WHO will be at the boss if it is not in an instance. Plus only ONE group can do the dragon at any time. That won't work for a big server with many groups wanting to do the content.
Plus the developers have to script for contingencies like what if 100 people show up for every encounter. The resources is better used to make it work for the designated number of people. Take all the 5 man content in WOW. It will take a monumenutal effort to refit them for every possible group size.
And if you have the boss disappears, or enrage whenever there are more than 5 people, you may as well just restrict the group size to be 5 and use an instance.
Works for me. I don't want my PVE encounters to be interruptible by some wandering numpty, especially the highly tactical ones geared to a large group of people. Instances provide a controlled environment in which to stage encounters with a highly customizable level of challenge.
Can't do that in the open world.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I don't understand how you CAN'T do a scripted boss fight without instances. Explain please.
Simple answer to that is some of my past experiences in non instanced boss fights. There are WAY too many people who get their jollies from messing things up for other people. Instances prevent outside players from doing that.
Works for me. I don't want my PVE encounters to be interruptible by some wandering numpty, especially the highly tactical ones geared to a large group of people. Instances provide a controlled environment in which to stage encounters with a highly customizable level of challenge.
Can't do that in the open world.
Then maybe controlled environments for staged encounters are not all that important. Perhaps, boss mobs spawn in different places at random intervals.
Remember, not everything is about the boss mob,and you can make getting to and staying in the area of a boss mob so challenging (with frequent respawns of dungeon trash) that only persistent well-planned grouping can achieve that.
Spontaneous, dynamic free range gameplay trump any boss encounters or staged instances.
Definitely dislike them. The world just seems so much more REAL without them. I don't mind annoyences you get with them at the end of the day. Also I'm quite casual and I hate the way most instances are implemented where you need to spend ages searching through the team and you HAVE to play through the whole thing to get the rewards.
Playing: Xsyon.
Played:
Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
Possible, but not possible well. EQs epic bosses are not as nice as an instanced epic boss because it will either be too hard or too easy. It will be screwed up by other players, it will be less believeable. EQ type epic bosses lead people to grind, whereas instanced bosses steer you away from grinding.. Pointing to EQ or even Daoc bosses as being the epitome is just silly. Not to mention that many people think that open world spawn of daoc was kind of lame and instances can even improve that.
Its not a mere example of complexity, theres more to it.
I do not think I prefer instances as my method of MMO gaming. I think that I much prefer being able to fight over boss encounters. I think that it is far better to have something realistic as opposed to just easily accessible. But that may just be one man's misguided opinion.
www.ryzom.com
Works for me. I don't want my PVE encounters to be interruptible by some wandering numpty, especially the highly tactical ones geared to a large group of people. Instances provide a controlled environment in which to stage encounters with a highly customizable level of challenge.
Can't do that in the open world.
Then maybe controlled environments for staged encounters are not all that important. Perhaps, boss mobs spawn in different places at random intervals.
Remember, not everything is about the boss mob,and you can make getting to and staying in the area of a boss mob so challenging (with frequent respawns of dungeon trash) that only persistent well-planned grouping can achieve that.
Spontaneous, dynamic free range gameplay trump any boss encounters or staged instances.
I haven't seen a free dynamically spawn boss has as interesting fights as scripted controlled ones. The real interesting fights also use the environment, and not just the boss mobs. You can't do that if you are randomly spawn at different places.
Also, if it spawn at random times, people may not be able to do the encounter whenever they want. And if you have it spawn all the time, large grps can form to wait for it and make it too easy.
I will take easily accessible any day. It is a GAME. It is not meant to be realistic anyway. If you can believe fireballs and magic shields, you can believe magically teleporting to get you and only your group inside the dungeon.
There is nothing wrong with having instances. It is all in the implementation of such a system. Much like any problem that is posted on this web site it is not a black and white solution. Great ideas are ruined through bad implementation. Just like in programming you can accomplish the same goal in numerous ways but not all are equal for code flexibility and speed of execution.
My personal opinion is that instances should be used sparingly to challenge the player on an individual level. I like the idea that I completed a challenge alone without the help or influence of anyone else. It was in fact all me to complete the task.