What we do know... UO was bleeding subscriptions badly... and they linked it to all the "bad" PvP gankers. Hence we got Trammel.
This literally was the first HUGE expansion to UO... and of course brought in numbers. But it did not bring in HUGE numbers... maybe 60,000 is what the educated guess is out there.
Everquest on the side was growing 100,000+ strong without a HUGE expansion.
So UO really didn't gain anything with Trammel... they could of shipped poop in a box and gotten the same subscriber numbers. They had a market being joined by a large group of first time players... and 60,000 was not any sort of success in my book.
I think the developers failed UO. Your guildmate was right... good vs evil caused the good to group together and the bad to group together.
The flawed theory you stated though is that you could bring vengeance upon your foes... but you forget that they can always log out. The question is does that person log out before or after you cause pain back upon them... very often it was unlikely.
Grouping up and forming communities was more about defense. You didn't get messed with if you were part of the right guild or city in UO... you just didn't unless it was by an enemy guild or enemy city. The in game and especcially out of game communication was insane. PKs were known... PK spots were known. Anti-PK guilds came up all over these areas. There was safety in numbers for both PKs and non-PKs. You had a rather controled gameplay experience by who you knew.
There is so much to be said other than just that. All rewards gained were WORTH it... there was substantial risk in doing anything by yourself.
How UO could of been saved?
Simple... fix the EXPLOITS that caused most people to hate a few select PK griefers... add CONTENT to spread out the players.
The UO world was horribly small for the people playing. The housing was owned up. People wanted to build a house and when they found out they couldn't... they quit. Trammel introduced 2x the land mass to build on... and that is more a reason people played it than anything.
To be honest, this is where we should have known the mmorpg market was going to go eventually. It's a major entertainment industry where the most popular attracts the widest audiences. However, unlike music or movies, the smaller indie developers in the mmorpg world do not bring enough to attract their niche of fans.
We've come to a point where developers need to come to the table with a complete game and none of this bug ridden, incomplete crap. WAR, AoC, CO and even in some regards Aion are the latest "big name" games that showed us exactly how to generate failure. All released too early with almost no polish (save Aion). Aion's issue is that there is a tremendous grind and damn near nothing to do in the end game.
Blizzard created a game that had polish and had a complete game for its time. Yes, WoW did have multiple issues at the beginning, but none of them were game breaking. Compared to the games that were out, WoW had more content and was more accessible. Accessibility is the key to success in the mmorpg world...and other developers don't seem to understand that.
I have hopes for Bioware with SWToR, simply because they seem to be taking their time and it looks like the focus of the game isn't a WoW model. In all honesty, SWToR looks more like it models itself after KoTOR (which makes sense), but adds the mmo spin to it.
Square-Enix has FF14 in the works. The information available makes the game seem promising, but the info released has been limited. Once they finally roll out beta we should know more.
Rumors are Bethesda is making an mmo based off Elder Scrolls, but rumors are rumors.
Finally, we know Blizzard is working on another mmo. New IP...with rumors of it being a sci-fi TPS style mmo.
One of these four will have the next big thing. Because each company has the cash to generate a true triple A mmorpg, with all of the bells and whistles. Each company also has a solid track record too. It's a matter of time before WoW is dethroned, even Blizzard admits this. Blizzard hopes they are the ones to "topple" themselves....I'd be willing to put money that Blizzard will generate the game that dethrones WoW.
That risk is exactly why any FFA full loot game is going to be VERY niche in the western market. There simply aren't the demographics to support more than that in todays western market. Andy by today's western market you mean the mish mash mix of Console Gamers and FPSers that have picked up MMO Gaming because games like WOW have made it time/effort convienent? Sure. Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase. Do me a favor.....if you play WOW, log in and queue for a random Arathi Valley (40 man vs 40 man PvP Scenario) and look at all the piss poor play from the general populous. I mean down right maddning displays of idiocy that cannot be explained by a rational thinking human being. The worst part is many of those idiots have played the same scenario 50-100 times and yet they CONTINUE run straight into a lake of fire with little consequence. It wouldn't fly in UO......just sayin....
I've played WoW since late beta. I have three 80's a 70's and some 60's. I'm painfully familiar with that problem. I also note that it doesn't change over time. Some few learn proper tactics, but the rest... But show me a business model that would be nearly as successful in terms of money, that punishes its player base? Thats not the approach to take. Providing incentives, is rather different than punishment.
I've given Blizzard props on their acomplishment. There is no doubt that they knocked the ball out of the park on their venture into MMO Gaming with a superior subscription model.
Ultima Online was in the guiness book of world records for the highest number of online game subscriptions at somewhere around 200,000 subs.
WOW claims to have somewhere around 11,000,000. They took out nearly all the risk and reduced the amount of time required to do stuff so that they could not only move in on the current MMO market, they expanded the market to include gamers who play and get enjoyment out of games for very different reasons than what the old MMO games gave.
Well what do you do about the people who originally played MMOs for the sence of community, who found value in in items and accumulated wealth that took time and effort to get, who found excitement in risky or dangerous environments?
You create a situation where your the only viable game to play, which is essentially what Blizzard has done. The people who enjoy the aspects of "old MMO gaming" put up with MMORPG-Lite because there isn't much else out there (other than a hopeful few weeks spent playing the latest n' greatist new MMO only to find out its the same business)
But you still have games like you want. Eve, Darkfall, FallenEarth and Mortal Online upcoming. The ratio is pretty accurate. Millions of people just don't want to play those types of games. Its the same 200-300k players jumping from ship to ship or riding a few at once. You have your games and they're proportionate to those who are willing to play them. If they're not up to your standards, take off the nostalgia goggles and realize UO was in no better shape than any newer MMO. You just didn't know any better at the time.
Blizzard hasn't forced ANYONE to do anything other make solid, fun games to survive. I don't feel sorry for developers who were able to get away with buggy experimental "games", because people at the time had no frame of reference. Now people know better. Its obvious what the vast majority prefer. Deal with it. MMOs aren't just for D&D nerds anymore or most of us have grown up;)
No lore? UO one of the longest running lores in any mmo. You then stated mobs were randomly placed? Wow, what game did you play? Zombies in the graveyard, deer in the woods and dragons in a cave.....yeah sure there guy. You even went farther saying it was an overglorified dungeon crawler.... all I can say is wrong again and keep kids off drugs. Npcs all had a building designed for the profession they represented and a damn sign, how is the hell is that random placement? Wow, there is an archery butte...must be an archer nearby to train with....WTF!
Everyone is entitled to an opinion on a game but just randomly making things up about it to serve your dislike is lame. No one needed quests in UO because the game was a quest to get to your house and back. Selling fel stones to trammies was great but for them I bet it was a quest and a half trying to stay alive and not losing their gear before they could get a stone. It was a mission to track hidden in your home when a thief moved into the area. Whatever caused such hatred towards a game to make thing up about it worth talking about. You might want to air them out.
- Almost forgot to add this even though it was in my mind. The gm and dev team constantly took part in the community creating huge events for everyone that went along with its lore(that it didn't have:P). The Trinsic invasion was probably the most memorable but they had a ton of things like that. Some that even changed the individual server from the next.
I completely agree with this post and the OP...People are so lame just to make up lies to bash a game. Especially the person who said he/she has been playing since 96??? I for one was a beta tester in 97 and have the original CD/CD envelope to prove it, I would like to see this "Alpha CD" from 96....I didn't even get a chance to participate in this closed beta...
No Lore? LOL UO had some of the greatest lore, if you were the one who actually read the books or played any of the Ultima series you would know the lore/story.
And I agree, a lot of us then were RPer's proabably from the D&D age (just an assumption) who made our own quests and such, but like knightcry said you don't have to be a RPer to invent a quest. The game itself was a quest, and whatever you wanted to do was a quest in itself. I for one travelled the world trying to find the missing stories/pages and secrets that they had in the game.
And UO at the time had active GM's/developers who actually were part of the game, and some were actually characters (if you remember that far back) such as Lord British, Lord Blackthorn, Kainz, Platinum...etc (We all know who they are ;o) )
There was so much stuff to do in the game it got me addicted....What happened to Lord British? What's that An Unknown Figure? Where can I find the rarest animal to tame? What hasn't been discovered? I admit I was PKed a few times, but items then were easily replaceable (not start all over from the beginning). And what's this, you actually buy and use stuff from NPC's?
UO is nothing like it was then, we all know what happened with Origin/EA & RG so I won't go into that topic because that's a whole new topic...Now everything in the game is Neon, Bugs/Exploits were absued, No GM activity, Pointless expansions, Skill Scrolls. I don't play anymore, but I still have an active account. Why? Because there's still a piece of me that belongs to UO, it started my whole MMO interest. At one point in the early 00's I even had my own shards using Sphereserver and Gateway, but people to this day still have free shards. People still love this game and put these shards up for free (no profit), out of pocket expense. I for one have moved on and try almost every MMO that passes by.
Bottom line: Don't hate on UO if you never played, were too young, or didn't understand how to play.
I've given Blizzard props on their acomplishment. There is no doubt that they knocked the ball out of the park on their venture into MMO Gaming with a superior subscription model. Ultima Online was in the guiness book of world records for the highest number of online game subscriptions at somewhere around 200,000 subs. WOW claims to have somewhere around 11,000,000. They took out nearly all the risk and reduced the amount of time required to do stuff so that they could not only move in on the current MMO market, they expanded the market to include gamers who play and get enjoyment out of games for very different reasons than what the old MMO games gave. Well what do you do about the people who originally played MMOs for the sence of community, who found value in in items and accumulated wealth that took time and effort to get, who found excitement in risky or dangerous environments? You create a situation where your the only viable game to play, which is essentially what Blizzard has done. The people who enjoy the aspects of "old MMO gaming" put up with MMORPG-Lite because there isn't much else out there (other than a hopeful few weeks spent playing the latest n' greatist new MMO only to find out its the same business)
But you still have games like you want. Eve, Darkfall, FallenEarth and Mortal Online upcoming. The ratio is pretty accurate. Millions of people just don't want to play those types of games. Its the same 200-300k players jumping from ship to ship or riding a few at once. You have your games and they're proportionate to those who are willing to play them. If they're not up to your standards, take off the nostalgia goggles and realize UO was in no better shape than any newer MMO. You just didn't know any better at the time.
Blizzard hasn't forced ANYONE to do anything other make solid, fun games to survive. I don't feel sorry for developers who were able to get away with buggy experimental "games", because people at the time had no frame of reference. Now people know better. Its obvious what the vast majority prefer. Deal with it. MMOs aren't just for D&D nerds anymore or most of us have grown up;)
Not really....I want a 3D version of UO (with some obvious sore spots fixed). Everytime there has been an attempt at a sandbox, the devs screw with the formula by making it space ship only combat, first person view only, etc.
And your right....Blizzard hasn't forced a single person to play their game. BUT, if you enjoy the genere....you'll put up with it. Thier position in the market creates makes it difficult for other MMO molds to take off.
I've given Blizzard props on their acomplishment. There is no doubt that they knocked the ball out of the park on their venture into MMO Gaming with a superior subscription model. Ultima Online was in the guiness book of world records for the highest number of online game subscriptions at somewhere around 200,000 subs. WOW claims to have somewhere around 11,000,000. They took out nearly all the risk and reduced the amount of time required to do stuff so that they could not only move in on the current MMO market, they expanded the market to include gamers who play and get enjoyment out of games for very different reasons than what the old MMO games gave. Well what do you do about the people who originally played MMOs for the sence of community, who found value in in items and accumulated wealth that took time and effort to get, who found excitement in risky or dangerous environments? You create a situation where your the only viable game to play, which is essentially what Blizzard has done. The people who enjoy the aspects of "old MMO gaming" put up with MMORPG-Lite because there isn't much else out there (other than a hopeful few weeks spent playing the latest n' greatist new MMO only to find out its the same business)
But you still have games like you want. Eve, Darkfall, FallenEarth and Mortal Online upcoming. The ratio is pretty accurate. Millions of people just don't want to play those types of games. Its the same 200-300k players jumping from ship to ship or riding a few at once. You have your games and they're proportionate to those who are willing to play them. If they're not up to your standards, take off the nostalgia goggles and realize UO was in no better shape than any newer MMO. You just didn't know any better at the time.
Blizzard hasn't forced ANYONE to do anything other make solid, fun games to survive. I don't feel sorry for developers who were able to get away with buggy experimental "games", because people at the time had no frame of reference. Now people know better. Its obvious what the vast majority prefer. Deal with it. MMOs aren't just for D&D nerds anymore or most of us have grown up;)
Not really....I want a 3D version of UO (with some obvious sore spots fixed). Everytime there has been an attempt at a sandbox, the devs screw with the formula by making it space ship only combat, first person view only, etc.
And your right....Blizzard hasn't forced a single person to play their game. BUT, if you enjoy the genere....you'll put up with it. Thier position in the market creates makes it difficult for other MMO molds to take off.
What exactly are people "putting up with"? FUN? If they don't want to play they'll quit. People do NOT play games they're not enjoying regardless of what they say, unless there's something really wrong with them, hehe. I think you misunderstand the phrase. When UO first came out, people PUT UP WITH IT if you want to call it that, because you couldn't do anything like it. It was so new and different, people put up with the bugs, bad control, lousy graphics, ect. At the time they had no choice and didn't know any better. Then EQ came out and people didn't have to put up with UO anymore. Then WOW came out and people didn't have to put up with previous MMOs and so on. If people were just putting up with WOW, they would've quit and said buh bye a long time ago...but they don't. Most try other games and go back to WOW. Can't say that about any other MMO.
Yes, Blizzard makes it hard for other MMOs to take off because WOW set a new standard. People don't put up with OTHER MMOs. But they obviously enjoy WOW.
Not really....I want a 3D version of UO (with some obvious sore spots fixed). Everytime there has been an attempt at a sandbox, the devs screw with the formula by making it space ship only combat, first person view only, etc. And your right....Blizzard hasn't forced a single person to play their game. BUT, if you enjoy the genere....you'll put up with it. Thier position in the market creates makes it difficult for other MMO molds to take off.
What exactly are people "putting up with"? FUN? If they don't want to play they'll quit. People do NOT play games they're not enjoying regardless of what they say, unless there's something really wrong with them, hehe. I think you misunderstand the phrase. When UO first came out, people PUT UP WITH IT if you want to call it that, because you couldn't do anything like it. It was so new and different, people put up with the bugs, bad control, lousy graphics, ect. At the time they had no choice and didn't know any better. Then EQ came out and people didn't have to put up with UO anymore. Then WOW came out and people didn't have to put up with previous MMOs and so on. If people were just putting up with WOW, they would've quit and said buh bye a long time ago...but they don't. Most try other games and go back to WOW. Can't say that about any other MMO.
Yes, Blizzard makes it hard for other MMOs to take off because WOW set a new standard. People don't put up with OTHER MMOs. But they obviously enjoy WOW.
Its not that black and white.
I like playing video games. I dislike FPS and most console games. I enjoy playing video games in a perpetual environment where I can interact with other players.....obviously my preferences go in a bit more detail but at the very least I prefer to game in a perpetual online world.
With that said....If I had to rate my enjoyment playing WOW on a scale from 1-10, i'd give it a 6 or 7. Its entertaining enough to continue my subscription but I'm still left wanting. It's not an all or nothing deal, as I'm sure it is with many other MMO gamers.
What are my options? Play one of the other less polished and comlpete themepark MMOs like Aion, Warhammer, AoC, etc.? Why would I leave a great themepark game for a crapy themepark?
Play EVE? For all its qualities, the transition to ship only combat and exploration is too far from the apple tree for me. Play Mortal Online or Darkfall? First Person View in MMORPGs don't make much sense to me and I can't stand it for similar reasons I dislike FPS games.
So I'll take my 6-7 rating experience with WOW and wait. In the mean time, I think its fair to critisize and discuss the genere and the direction its heading in. Like I said, its not all black and white.
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time. I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all?? Timmy
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns. Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people. Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that. What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives. For playing smart.
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time. I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all?? Timmy
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns. Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people. Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that. What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives. For playing smart.
But the've done that. They have increased the amount of honor gained while in a certian radius of flags, bunkers by 50%.
Problem hasn't gotten any better. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
Blizzard tried to give benifit for working the objectives in thier new 40 vs 40 Battleground by giving buffs for holding each objective and people still ignore them. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
You need the carrot AND the stick. And if the end result of it all is that 80% of the PvP community refuses to participate in a team PvP scenario because they can't be bothered to play the scenarios as intended for their reward......well then what does that say about the player base?
Originally posted by RajCaj LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
It is cheating on a certain level.
Skill in games is either Physical (twitch) or Mental (strategy/tactical skill and decisionmaking.)
Mental Skill is game knowledge and decisionmaking
Walkthroughs (including Boss Guides) are basically "Cheat sheets". Fast tracks for learning the knowledge.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
It's not cheating...its competitive advantage. Another great feature of Item-Centric games is that many people care more about the gear on their back than the community they play in. If your guild isn't progressing at a certian pace, or if your having trouble on a particular part of the raid, players move on to guilds that are progressing. I've seen it happen too many times.
Any guild that is not in the front wave to tackle a new dungeon uses the info available to them. After all, the faster they gear people, the easier the content gets and the faster you can put that dungeon on farm status and move on to the next. Please don't pretend that no one looks at those boss guides. Even if you aren't, your raid leader is and he/she is telling everyone exactly where to be and what to do.
Er, you're completely missing the point in some assumption that I feel guilds don't use boss guides.
The fundamental reason any game is hard is you don't have enough learning. Learning both the physical mastery (twitch skill) and mental mastery (strategic skill) necessary to do well. So one way of measuring a game's difficulty is the length of time spent learning. Usually this is in-game, but not always (in the case of strategic skill, which is increased by knowledge of the game, which can be gained out of game.)
You've probably spent more time studying WOW than you have in most other games you've played. The game is difficult enough that guilds feel it's an automatic conclusion they should be using boss guides and Wowhead.
In most other games, do you feel it's an automatic conclusion that you need to use walkthroughs and guides? Is there even a game out there which has 10% of the amount of walkthroughs, guides, boss guides, class guides, etc, that WOW has?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So UO really didn't gain anything with Trammel... they could of shipped poop in a box and gotten the same subscriber numbers.
That logic holds true for exactly 1 month. Then unsubscription happens.
The chart shows Trammel caused a population surge for about a year. Much longer than a month.
Sure it couldn't compete with EQ for various reasons, but tbh I'd assume far different reasons (2D vs. 3D in games designed to be "worlds", for starters.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by RajCaj LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
It is cheating on a certain level.
Skill in games is either Physical (twitch) or Mental (strategy/tactical skill and decisionmaking.)
Mental Skill is game knowledge and decisionmaking
Walkthroughs (including Boss Guides) are basically "Cheat sheets". Fast tracks for learning the knowledge.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
It's not cheating...its competitive advantage. Another great feature of Item-Centric games is that many people care more about the gear on their back than the community they play in. If your guild isn't progressing at a certian pace, or if your having trouble on a particular part of the raid, players move on to guilds that are progressing. I've seen it happen too many times.
Any guild that is not in the front wave to tackle a new dungeon uses the info available to them. After all, the faster they gear people, the easier the content gets and the faster you can put that dungeon on farm status and move on to the next. Please don't pretend that no one looks at those boss guides. Even if you aren't, your raid leader is and he/she is telling everyone exactly where to be and what to do.
Er, you're completely missing the point in some assumption that I feel guilds don't use boss guides.
The fundamental reason any game is hard is you don't have enough learning. Learning both the physical mastery (twitch skill) and mental mastery (strategic skill) necessary to do well. So one way of measuring a game's difficulty is the length of time spent learning. Usually this is in-game, but not always (in the case of strategic skill, which is increased by knowledge of the game, which can be gained out of game.)
You've probably spent more time studying WOW than you have in most other games you've played. The game is difficult enough that guilds feel it's an automatic conclusion they should be using boss guides and Wowhead.
In most other games, do you feel it's an automatic conclusion that you need to use walkthroughs and guides? Is there even a game out there which has 10% of the amount of walkthroughs, guides, boss guides, class guides, etc, that WOW has?
Getting educated on Boss fights isn't rocket science. "This" class stands here and does "this". "This" class stands here and does "this", etc., etc. There are even maps, diagrams and videos showing exactly how its done. 15 minutes to learn a fight is a piss poor excuse for "difficulty" or mental mastery.
And no, iv'e never played another game have I played where I needed to look up strats on a boss. That doesn't mean other games aren't hard for other reasons.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
UO was about Character Progression, not farming gear. Also, there is valuable armor in the game, but it's something you'd save for more important events, not just walking around in it to show off how hardcore farmer you were.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
Originally posted by Marcus- Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by superslaya Originally posted by Armisael191 Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time. I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all?? Timmy
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns. Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people. Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that. What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives. For playing smart.
But the've done that. They have increased the amount of honor gained while in a certian radius of flags, bunkers by 50%.
Problem hasn't gotten any better. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
Blizzard tried to give benifit for working the objectives in thier new 40 vs 40 Battleground by giving buffs for holding each objective and people still ignore them. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
You need the carrot AND the stick. And if the end result of it all is that 80% of the PvP community refuses to participate in a team PvP scenario because they can't be bothered to play the scenarios as intended for their reward......well then what does that say about the player base?
Pretty much what it says about such a cross section of the population in general... I wasn't aware of the additions, as I've not bothered with WoW PvP for quite a long while. It was just too annoying for the time/effort involved. At this point I doubt it can be fixed. They are dealing with a dumbed down population with an entitlement fixation... It would take one hell of a lot to turn that around, and still remain profitable.
Not everyone likes the idea of playing a video game and losing hours of progress just because someone who is bored decided to kill you and loot your stuff while you were busy doing something else. Some people don't want to be interrupted while playing, can you fault them for that? No. How would you like it if while you were trying to gank someone a friend walked in your room and turned off your computer? Not fun, is it?
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
This FFA and full loot were "good" things about Ultima Online, so were the house systems and mounted combat which most games STILL don't have... From dying armor to making weapons to one of the if not the best player economy of all MMO's..
What made the game GREAT was that anyone and I mean anyone at most times can get away or kill the person or people they are engaged with.. Example..
I was on the shard Chesapeake with the guild Iron Chefs at the time which everyone on shard hated us, whenever we would gate to locations known to have guild/group fight all guilds in the location will stop fighting each other and come at us.. We would still win.. Not trying to be bragging or anything but that is just how the game worked, when you are a smart player you can over come all odds.. I've lived through and or killed more 2+ odds then not and it wasn't due to luck or gear it was skill... Skill is the only thing that mattered which lacks from most other games...
People complained about being ganked and pked but the truth of that is they needed to "L2P" by which I mean they should already be ready to be casting recall or have the hide skill hotkeyed...
People will always choose to have a game mechanic that is easy with outcomes mostly due to gear or level... The reason UO changes in my opionion is because of those very same hardcore WoW players whom I believe to be the ones who complained and "QQ" to GMs causing the death of UO..
I completely agree. In Uo, you could just as easily escape from 10 guys by using invisibility, hiding, recall, or just outmaneuvering them. You can't do that in most other games. Also, its true, the definition of hardcore has changed since the old days. Hardcore now means you pretty much suck and just grind equipment or experience all day, and some people might spend all day in the game, and it has a connotation of having no life in real life. In the old days, hardcore meant just that, you were highly skilled in the game, and you were really "into" it, having fun and everything. The word had nothing to do with how long you played the game. I am still surprised when I hear people say that the only way mmos can be fair is if the people that play longer have a greater advantage. That actually sounds like the opposite of fair to me.
I am still surprised when I hear people say that the only way mmos can be fair is if the people that play longer have a greater advantage. That actually sounds like the opposite of fair to me.
People say RPGs aren't RPGs without advancement, but I've never heard anyone say they're not fair without advancement.
Also, I think you've developed an awfully warped perception of what hardcore means. "Hardcore" has never been well defined (nor will it ever be) but it's always referred to those who invested more (more time, more energy, more skill) into gaming than others. It would be wrong to assume that it's ever meant anything beyond that, or that it was ever more specific a definition than that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
What we do know... UO was bleeding subscriptions badly... and they linked it to all the "bad" PvP gankers. Hence we got Trammel.
This literally was the first HUGE expansion to UO... and of course brought in numbers. But it did not bring in HUGE numbers... maybe 60,000 is what the educated guess is out there.
Everquest on the side was growing 100,000+ strong without a HUGE expansion.
So UO really didn't gain anything with Trammel... they could of shipped poop in a box and gotten the same subscriber numbers. They had a market being joined by a large group of first time players... and 60,000 was not any sort of success in my book.
I think the developers failed UO. Your guildmate was right... good vs evil caused the good to group together and the bad to group together.
The flawed theory you stated though is that you could bring vengeance upon your foes... but you forget that they can always log out. The question is does that person log out before or after you cause pain back upon them... very often it was unlikely.
Grouping up and forming communities was more about defense. You didn't get messed with if you were part of the right guild or city in UO... you just didn't unless it was by an enemy guild or enemy city. The in game and especcially out of game communication was insane. PKs were known... PK spots were known. Anti-PK guilds came up all over these areas. There was safety in numbers for both PKs and non-PKs. You had a rather controled gameplay experience by who you knew.
There is so much to be said other than just that. All rewards gained were WORTH it... there was substantial risk in doing anything by yourself.
How UO could of been saved?
Simple... fix the EXPLOITS that caused most people to hate a few select PK griefers... add CONTENT to spread out the players.
The UO world was horribly small for the people playing. The housing was owned up. People wanted to build a house and when they found out they couldn't... they quit. Trammel introduced 2x the land mass to build on... and that is more a reason people played it than anything.
UO was destroyed by trammel.
To be honest, this is where we should have known the mmorpg market was going to go eventually. It's a major entertainment industry where the most popular attracts the widest audiences. However, unlike music or movies, the smaller indie developers in the mmorpg world do not bring enough to attract their niche of fans.
We've come to a point where developers need to come to the table with a complete game and none of this bug ridden, incomplete crap. WAR, AoC, CO and even in some regards Aion are the latest "big name" games that showed us exactly how to generate failure. All released too early with almost no polish (save Aion). Aion's issue is that there is a tremendous grind and damn near nothing to do in the end game.
Blizzard created a game that had polish and had a complete game for its time. Yes, WoW did have multiple issues at the beginning, but none of them were game breaking. Compared to the games that were out, WoW had more content and was more accessible. Accessibility is the key to success in the mmorpg world...and other developers don't seem to understand that.
I have hopes for Bioware with SWToR, simply because they seem to be taking their time and it looks like the focus of the game isn't a WoW model. In all honesty, SWToR looks more like it models itself after KoTOR (which makes sense), but adds the mmo spin to it.
Square-Enix has FF14 in the works. The information available makes the game seem promising, but the info released has been limited. Once they finally roll out beta we should know more.
Rumors are Bethesda is making an mmo based off Elder Scrolls, but rumors are rumors.
Finally, we know Blizzard is working on another mmo. New IP...with rumors of it being a sci-fi TPS style mmo.
One of these four will have the next big thing. Because each company has the cash to generate a true triple A mmorpg, with all of the bells and whistles. Each company also has a solid track record too. It's a matter of time before WoW is dethroned, even Blizzard admits this. Blizzard hopes they are the ones to "topple" themselves....I'd be willing to put money that Blizzard will generate the game that dethrones WoW.
I've played WoW since late beta. I have three 80's a 70's and some 60's. I'm painfully familiar with that problem. I also note that it doesn't change over time. Some few learn proper tactics, but the rest... But show me a business model that would be nearly as successful in terms of money, that punishes its player base? Thats not the approach to take. Providing incentives, is rather different than punishment.
I've given Blizzard props on their acomplishment. There is no doubt that they knocked the ball out of the park on their venture into MMO Gaming with a superior subscription model.
Ultima Online was in the guiness book of world records for the highest number of online game subscriptions at somewhere around 200,000 subs.
WOW claims to have somewhere around 11,000,000. They took out nearly all the risk and reduced the amount of time required to do stuff so that they could not only move in on the current MMO market, they expanded the market to include gamers who play and get enjoyment out of games for very different reasons than what the old MMO games gave.
Well what do you do about the people who originally played MMOs for the sence of community, who found value in in items and accumulated wealth that took time and effort to get, who found excitement in risky or dangerous environments?
You create a situation where your the only viable game to play, which is essentially what Blizzard has done. The people who enjoy the aspects of "old MMO gaming" put up with MMORPG-Lite because there isn't much else out there (other than a hopeful few weeks spent playing the latest n' greatist new MMO only to find out its the same business)
But you still have games like you want. Eve, Darkfall, FallenEarth and Mortal Online upcoming. The ratio is pretty accurate. Millions of people just don't want to play those types of games. Its the same 200-300k players jumping from ship to ship or riding a few at once. You have your games and they're proportionate to those who are willing to play them. If they're not up to your standards, take off the nostalgia goggles and realize UO was in no better shape than any newer MMO. You just didn't know any better at the time.
Blizzard hasn't forced ANYONE to do anything other make solid, fun games to survive. I don't feel sorry for developers who were able to get away with buggy experimental "games", because people at the time had no frame of reference. Now people know better. Its obvious what the vast majority prefer. Deal with it. MMOs aren't just for D&D nerds anymore or most of us have grown up;)
I completely agree with this post and the OP...People are so lame just to make up lies to bash a game. Especially the person who said he/she has been playing since 96??? I for one was a beta tester in 97 and have the original CD/CD envelope to prove it, I would like to see this "Alpha CD" from 96....I didn't even get a chance to participate in this closed beta...
No Lore? LOL UO had some of the greatest lore, if you were the one who actually read the books or played any of the Ultima series you would know the lore/story.
And I agree, a lot of us then were RPer's proabably from the D&D age (just an assumption) who made our own quests and such, but like knightcry said you don't have to be a RPer to invent a quest. The game itself was a quest, and whatever you wanted to do was a quest in itself. I for one travelled the world trying to find the missing stories/pages and secrets that they had in the game.
And UO at the time had active GM's/developers who actually were part of the game, and some were actually characters (if you remember that far back) such as Lord British, Lord Blackthorn, Kainz, Platinum...etc (We all know who they are ;o) )
There was so much stuff to do in the game it got me addicted....What happened to Lord British? What's that An Unknown Figure? Where can I find the rarest animal to tame? What hasn't been discovered? I admit I was PKed a few times, but items then were easily replaceable (not start all over from the beginning). And what's this, you actually buy and use stuff from NPC's?
UO is nothing like it was then, we all know what happened with Origin/EA & RG so I won't go into that topic because that's a whole new topic...Now everything in the game is Neon, Bugs/Exploits were absued, No GM activity, Pointless expansions, Skill Scrolls. I don't play anymore, but I still have an active account. Why? Because there's still a piece of me that belongs to UO, it started my whole MMO interest. At one point in the early 00's I even had my own shards using Sphereserver and Gateway, but people to this day still have free shards. People still love this game and put these shards up for free (no profit), out of pocket expense. I for one have moved on and try almost every MMO that passes by.
Bottom line: Don't hate on UO if you never played, were too young, or didn't understand how to play.
But you still have games like you want. Eve, Darkfall, FallenEarth and Mortal Online upcoming. The ratio is pretty accurate. Millions of people just don't want to play those types of games. Its the same 200-300k players jumping from ship to ship or riding a few at once. You have your games and they're proportionate to those who are willing to play them. If they're not up to your standards, take off the nostalgia goggles and realize UO was in no better shape than any newer MMO. You just didn't know any better at the time.
Blizzard hasn't forced ANYONE to do anything other make solid, fun games to survive. I don't feel sorry for developers who were able to get away with buggy experimental "games", because people at the time had no frame of reference. Now people know better. Its obvious what the vast majority prefer. Deal with it. MMOs aren't just for D&D nerds anymore or most of us have grown up;)
Not really....I want a 3D version of UO (with some obvious sore spots fixed). Everytime there has been an attempt at a sandbox, the devs screw with the formula by making it space ship only combat, first person view only, etc.
And your right....Blizzard hasn't forced a single person to play their game. BUT, if you enjoy the genere....you'll put up with it. Thier position in the market creates makes it difficult for other MMO molds to take off.
But you still have games like you want. Eve, Darkfall, FallenEarth and Mortal Online upcoming. The ratio is pretty accurate. Millions of people just don't want to play those types of games. Its the same 200-300k players jumping from ship to ship or riding a few at once. You have your games and they're proportionate to those who are willing to play them. If they're not up to your standards, take off the nostalgia goggles and realize UO was in no better shape than any newer MMO. You just didn't know any better at the time.
Blizzard hasn't forced ANYONE to do anything other make solid, fun games to survive. I don't feel sorry for developers who were able to get away with buggy experimental "games", because people at the time had no frame of reference. Now people know better. Its obvious what the vast majority prefer. Deal with it. MMOs aren't just for D&D nerds anymore or most of us have grown up;)
Not really....I want a 3D version of UO (with some obvious sore spots fixed). Everytime there has been an attempt at a sandbox, the devs screw with the formula by making it space ship only combat, first person view only, etc.
And your right....Blizzard hasn't forced a single person to play their game. BUT, if you enjoy the genere....you'll put up with it. Thier position in the market creates makes it difficult for other MMO molds to take off.
What exactly are people "putting up with"? FUN? If they don't want to play they'll quit. People do NOT play games they're not enjoying regardless of what they say, unless there's something really wrong with them, hehe. I think you misunderstand the phrase. When UO first came out, people PUT UP WITH IT if you want to call it that, because you couldn't do anything like it. It was so new and different, people put up with the bugs, bad control, lousy graphics, ect. At the time they had no choice and didn't know any better. Then EQ came out and people didn't have to put up with UO anymore. Then WOW came out and people didn't have to put up with previous MMOs and so on. If people were just putting up with WOW, they would've quit and said buh bye a long time ago...but they don't. Most try other games and go back to WOW. Can't say that about any other MMO.
Yes, Blizzard makes it hard for other MMOs to take off because WOW set a new standard. People don't put up with OTHER MMOs. But they obviously enjoy WOW.
What exactly are people "putting up with"? FUN? If they don't want to play they'll quit. People do NOT play games they're not enjoying regardless of what they say, unless there's something really wrong with them, hehe. I think you misunderstand the phrase. When UO first came out, people PUT UP WITH IT if you want to call it that, because you couldn't do anything like it. It was so new and different, people put up with the bugs, bad control, lousy graphics, ect. At the time they had no choice and didn't know any better. Then EQ came out and people didn't have to put up with UO anymore. Then WOW came out and people didn't have to put up with previous MMOs and so on. If people were just putting up with WOW, they would've quit and said buh bye a long time ago...but they don't. Most try other games and go back to WOW. Can't say that about any other MMO.
Yes, Blizzard makes it hard for other MMOs to take off because WOW set a new standard. People don't put up with OTHER MMOs. But they obviously enjoy WOW.
Its not that black and white.
I like playing video games. I dislike FPS and most console games. I enjoy playing video games in a perpetual environment where I can interact with other players.....obviously my preferences go in a bit more detail but at the very least I prefer to game in a perpetual online world.
With that said....If I had to rate my enjoyment playing WOW on a scale from 1-10, i'd give it a 6 or 7. Its entertaining enough to continue my subscription but I'm still left wanting. It's not an all or nothing deal, as I'm sure it is with many other MMO gamers.
What are my options? Play one of the other less polished and comlpete themepark MMOs like Aion, Warhammer, AoC, etc.? Why would I leave a great themepark game for a crapy themepark?
Play EVE? For all its qualities, the transition to ship only combat and exploration is too far from the apple tree for me. Play Mortal Online or Darkfall? First Person View in MMORPGs don't make much sense to me and I can't stand it for similar reasons I dislike FPS games.
So I'll take my 6-7 rating experience with WOW and wait. In the mean time, I think its fair to critisize and discuss the genere and the direction its heading in. Like I said, its not all black and white.
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns. Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people. Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that. What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives. For playing smart.
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns. Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people. Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that. What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives. For playing smart.
But the've done that. They have increased the amount of honor gained while in a certian radius of flags, bunkers by 50%.
Problem hasn't gotten any better. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
Blizzard tried to give benifit for working the objectives in thier new 40 vs 40 Battleground by giving buffs for holding each objective and people still ignore them. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
You need the carrot AND the stick. And if the end result of it all is that 80% of the PvP community refuses to participate in a team PvP scenario because they can't be bothered to play the scenarios as intended for their reward......well then what does that say about the player base?
It is cheating on a certain level.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
It's not cheating...its competitive advantage. Another great feature of Item-Centric games is that many people care more about the gear on their back than the community they play in. If your guild isn't progressing at a certian pace, or if your having trouble on a particular part of the raid, players move on to guilds that are progressing. I've seen it happen too many times.
Any guild that is not in the front wave to tackle a new dungeon uses the info available to them. After all, the faster they gear people, the easier the content gets and the faster you can put that dungeon on farm status and move on to the next. Please don't pretend that no one looks at those boss guides. Even if you aren't, your raid leader is and he/she is telling everyone exactly where to be and what to do.
Er, you're completely missing the point in some assumption that I feel guilds don't use boss guides.
The fundamental reason any game is hard is you don't have enough learning. Learning both the physical mastery (twitch skill) and mental mastery (strategic skill) necessary to do well. So one way of measuring a game's difficulty is the length of time spent learning. Usually this is in-game, but not always (in the case of strategic skill, which is increased by knowledge of the game, which can be gained out of game.)
You've probably spent more time studying WOW than you have in most other games you've played. The game is difficult enough that guilds feel it's an automatic conclusion they should be using boss guides and Wowhead.
In most other games, do you feel it's an automatic conclusion that you need to use walkthroughs and guides? Is there even a game out there which has 10% of the amount of walkthroughs, guides, boss guides, class guides, etc, that WOW has?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That logic holds true for exactly 1 month. Then unsubscription happens.
The chart shows Trammel caused a population surge for about a year. Much longer than a month.
Sure it couldn't compete with EQ for various reasons, but tbh I'd assume far different reasons (2D vs. 3D in games designed to be "worlds", for starters.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yep...that's it...I had not fully developed yet.
It's better to lurk in forums and be thought a fool...than to endlessly "Quote" and remove all doubts.
It is cheating on a certain level.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
It's not cheating...its competitive advantage. Another great feature of Item-Centric games is that many people care more about the gear on their back than the community they play in. If your guild isn't progressing at a certian pace, or if your having trouble on a particular part of the raid, players move on to guilds that are progressing. I've seen it happen too many times.
Any guild that is not in the front wave to tackle a new dungeon uses the info available to them. After all, the faster they gear people, the easier the content gets and the faster you can put that dungeon on farm status and move on to the next. Please don't pretend that no one looks at those boss guides. Even if you aren't, your raid leader is and he/she is telling everyone exactly where to be and what to do.
Er, you're completely missing the point in some assumption that I feel guilds don't use boss guides.
The fundamental reason any game is hard is you don't have enough learning. Learning both the physical mastery (twitch skill) and mental mastery (strategic skill) necessary to do well. So one way of measuring a game's difficulty is the length of time spent learning. Usually this is in-game, but not always (in the case of strategic skill, which is increased by knowledge of the game, which can be gained out of game.)
You've probably spent more time studying WOW than you have in most other games you've played. The game is difficult enough that guilds feel it's an automatic conclusion they should be using boss guides and Wowhead.
In most other games, do you feel it's an automatic conclusion that you need to use walkthroughs and guides? Is there even a game out there which has 10% of the amount of walkthroughs, guides, boss guides, class guides, etc, that WOW has?
Getting educated on Boss fights isn't rocket science. "This" class stands here and does "this". "This" class stands here and does "this", etc., etc. There are even maps, diagrams and videos showing exactly how its done. 15 minutes to learn a fight is a piss poor excuse for "difficulty" or mental mastery.
And no, iv'e never played another game have I played where I needed to look up strats on a boss. That doesn't mean other games aren't hard for other reasons.
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
UO was about Character Progression, not farming gear. Also, there is valuable armor in the game, but it's something you'd save for more important events, not just walking around in it to show off how hardcore farmer you were.
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
You say that like its a bad thing....
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
You say that like its a bad thing....
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
You say that like its a bad thing....
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
You say that like its a bad thing....
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Good question. Personally, I suspect the battlegrounds would be pretty much ghost towns. Its all of the carrots that attract people. Lose those, lose the people. Do it enough and people start dropping out of the game. Blizzard obviously doesn't want that. What might work would be increased rewards for holding positions, and gaining objectives. For playing smart.
But the've done that. They have increased the amount of honor gained while in a certian radius of flags, bunkers by 50%.
Problem hasn't gotten any better. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
Blizzard tried to give benifit for working the objectives in thier new 40 vs 40 Battleground by giving buffs for holding each objective and people still ignore them. Why? Because you can still gain honor (rewards) for playing bad, or for not even playing the scenario as was intended.
You need the carrot AND the stick. And if the end result of it all is that 80% of the PvP community refuses to participate in a team PvP scenario because they can't be bothered to play the scenarios as intended for their reward......well then what does that say about the player base?
Pretty much what it says about such a cross section of the population in general... I wasn't aware of the additions, as I've not bothered with WoW PvP for quite a long while. It was just too annoying for the time/effort involved. At this point I doubt it can be fixed. They are dealing with a dumbed down population with an entitlement fixation... It would take one hell of a lot to turn that around, and still remain profitable.
EA disagrees with OP, they have already created a new Ultima Online game which is in beta, and its nothing like his vision:
www.lordofultima.com
See, thing about UO is that you NEVER kept days worth of gear on you. I had a house with many items and when I died, I recalled and restocked, but never did a single death take me back for days. If this was the case for you, then my friend you played like a newbie, and there is no other way to say it. I can hardly even think of what I might wear or use that could be both worth a fortune and stolen. Shit, most of the time I suited up in horned leather armor with a bag of regs and went to light the neighborhood up. The last question you provided suggests to me that you also ran around alone, again your fault. I never went anywhere without at least one other person.
Exactly why UO has a bad design. You will never be wearing anything valuable on your person. It defeat the purpose of item progression in a MMORPG.
You say that like its a bad thing....
I completely agree. In Uo, you could just as easily escape from 10 guys by using invisibility, hiding, recall, or just outmaneuvering them. You can't do that in most other games. Also, its true, the definition of hardcore has changed since the old days. Hardcore now means you pretty much suck and just grind equipment or experience all day, and some people might spend all day in the game, and it has a connotation of having no life in real life. In the old days, hardcore meant just that, you were highly skilled in the game, and you were really "into" it, having fun and everything. The word had nothing to do with how long you played the game. I am still surprised when I hear people say that the only way mmos can be fair is if the people that play longer have a greater advantage. That actually sounds like the opposite of fair to me.
People say RPGs aren't RPGs without advancement, but I've never heard anyone say they're not fair without advancement.
Also, I think you've developed an awfully warped perception of what hardcore means. "Hardcore" has never been well defined (nor will it ever be) but it's always referred to those who invested more (more time, more energy, more skill) into gaming than others. It would be wrong to assume that it's ever meant anything beyond that, or that it was ever more specific a definition than that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver