There's your hardcore base. A small percentage of the whole. Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on. But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms. Easy to play. Hard to master. Its why WOW is where it is. What was HARD in UO anyway? Dealing with exploiters and gankers? Smacking a tree 10000 time? UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters. In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?
Ahh so they don't actually get smarter, they just get more levels in the next expansion.
But at that point, the rewards are useless.
Until that point, the rewards are great -- and only attained by those who play skillfully.
Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.
/shrug
edit: I'd also assume that each character in the group going must be min/maxed to the high heavens, and if i didnt play one of the holy trinity, i may as well completly forget going? I'm asking, i don't know....
Marcus you can be a part of the elite and special two percent of the WoW gaming community if you were to dedicate 8 to 10 hours a day of grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
Originally posted by RajCaj LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
It is cheating on a certain level.
Skill in games is either Physical (twitch) or Mental (strategy/tactical skill and decisionmaking.)
Mental Skill is game knowledge and decisionmaking
Walkthroughs (including Boss Guides) are basically "Cheat sheets". Fast tracks for learning the knowledge.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Marcus you can be a part of the elite and special two percent of the WoW gaming community if you were to dedicate 8 to 10 hours a day of grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
Timmy
I'd risk saying that more than 20% of wow players dedicate 8 to 10 hours or more a day, grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
and 18% still fail
Its obvious there are more to it than you'd think.
and definetly none of it could be found in UO, the intangible god entity that for some reason i cant fathom (and I played UO back then) people seem to praise so loudly around here, and which made the MMO genre...turn the opposite side for greater success.
Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.
So your ideal game lacks challenge? It sounds like you want (at least that 2% minority) to not have sufficiently challenging gameplay...
WOW doesn't provide this sort of "exclusive" content anymore anyway. Nowadays the majority of players are capable of seeing instances, and a good deal of them beating those instances on normal mode -- but the hard modes of these raids are what's exclusive now.
I don't fully agree with their exact difficulty implementation (it's too hard to find your "sweet spot" of challenge to earn optimal rewards for your current progression) but it's at least a reasonably smart way of doing things.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.
So your ideal game lacks challenge? It sounds like you want (at least that 2% minority) to not have sufficiently challenging gameplay...
WOW doesn't provide this sort of "exclusive" content anymore anyway. Nowadays the majority of players are capable of seeing instances, and a good deal of them beating those instances on normal mode -- but the hard modes of these raids are what's exclusive now.
I don't fully agree with their exact difficulty implementation (it's too hard to find your "sweet spot" of challenge to earn optimal rewards for your current progression) but it's at least a reasonably smart way of doing things.
No, i love a challenge actually.
My first MMO was Neverwinter Nights in '94-'95, and for a game that wasnt suppose to have PvP, it was its main focus (imo), and i would guess it could be considered a a sandbox. From there I moved onto UO which also had a PvP focus, and was a sandbox. My other games were DAOC, and SWG.
Once i got to WoW, i got my first raid experience, and i absolutely hated it.
The waiting, the instance, the holy trinity, the min/maxing, the lock out timers... just about every part of it... I was a product of my enviorment i suppose
I play MMOs for the PvP challenge, especially, but not limited to, guild vs guild, or RvR.
Hard in UO PvE? For a 12 year old game, the AI wasn't very smart.....not far from what you find in most monsters you fight in current MMOs (WOW included). Whats really hard in WOW PvE? My old Guildmaster required everyone to watch videos and read websites that broke each bosses mechanics down by phase and by class. We knew exactly where we needed to be and what we needed to do at every point of the fight. Again......the only thing difficult or challenging about WOW PvE is a result of the gear everyone has and ensuring that everyone does their job (which in its own right seems a bit challenging for many WOW players) So you're saying you HAD TO cheat just to win. So the tactics were so difficult you couldn't figure it out on your own. You know, playing Jeapardy is pretty damn easy when you already know the answers. UO PvE was less about monster bashing and more about serving as a means to other ends. (Getting magic gear to sell on your vendor, gold to buy house decour from another players vendor, and yes.....showing off your crap to others in towns)
So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players? Every MMO has that=)
LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
WOW doesn't have the "trials and tribulations of dealing with other players" that UO had by a far shot. Your interaction with a player you buy or sell stuff to is limited to an Auction House GUI. No one knows the names of other players outside of their guild in their own faction much less notorious people in the opposing faction.
9 times out of 10 when someone is trying to get my attention in WOW, its "Hey Mage", not "Hey Raj". Absolutely Terrible....
So that makes YOU little johnny, since you couldn't lead those simple raids=) But if people want to cheat, thats their choice. That still doesn't discount the difficulty of the encounters. I guess you must play all your games on the easiest mode because everyone does it?
Marcus you can be a part of the elite and special two percent of the WoW gaming community if you were to dedicate 8 to 10 hours a day of grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
Timmy
I'd risk saying that more than 20% of wow players dedicate 8 to 10 hours or more a day, grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
and 18% still fail
Its obvious there are more to it than you'd think.
and definetly none of it could be found in UO, the intangible god entity that for some reason i cant fathom (and I played UO back then) people seem to praise so loudly around here, and which made the MMO genre...turn the opposite side for greater success.
LOL...it doesn't matter if 18 percent fail, a grind is still a grind. You'll probably lose a lot of gold on repairs and such, but it's not like you're losing anything significant like fancy items or fancy gear if your group fails to complete a dungeon or a raid. But any toddler can simply spend hours upon hours grinding to obtain more gold. It's not really impacting the game world in a positive or negative manner, your actions do nothing to help the alliance(or Horde) gain power or influence over the world. It's all about getting the best gear for the "individual."
It would be a different story if your guild were to loose an actual item or gear from a failed attempt. Or if a group failed to complete a raid the opposing faction got to choose an item from your guild bank. That would add more risk and reward to the equation.
As I said before I could "work" my ass off by playing 8 to 10 hours a day to and become 2 percent of the "skilled" community and fail to get what I want, the only significant thing I would have lost was time. If I become a part of the 2 percent community and DO succeed in getting that "epic sunwell gear," I still lose again because I would have lost time.
I'd rather spend 6-8 hours a week for 1 or 2 weeks, perfoming high risk/high reward quest/dungeons/raids than spend 8-10 hours a day for several weeks doing mind numbing task without the threat of risking anything significant to get that epic item.
Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.
So your ideal game lacks challenge? It sounds like you want (at least that 2% minority) to not have sufficiently challenging gameplay...
WOW doesn't provide this sort of "exclusive" content anymore anyway. Nowadays the majority of players are capable of seeing instances, and a good deal of them beating those instances on normal mode -- but the hard modes of these raids are what's exclusive now.
I don't fully agree with their exact difficulty implementation (it's too hard to find your "sweet spot" of challenge to earn optimal rewards for your current progression) but it's at least a reasonably smart way of doing things.
Exactly. This is smart use of resources. I have never done sunwell .. not in that 2% but i have done TOC and I am in a raiding guild doing ICC. My old guild cannot do hard modes, i will see if this new one will.
We spend whole evening 2-3 hours trying and succeeding in downing the blood prince. Anyone who says WOW has no challenges is certainly WOW. We are all appropriately geared (at least TOC, many with some ICC gear) and we tried several runs to learn the mechanics and figuring out what to do (no watching video on this one). Then we buff up, put on all the flask and stuff, and kill the princes. I am so happy even though i did not get any loot.
The Blood Prince is NOT a super hard fight but you still need to learn a few things (where to tank the 3 princes, switch, deal with special abilities), and coordinating 25 people is HARD .. no matter what you say.
Well if you want a challenge, someone is going to be incapable of each higher tier of content. Only 2% of people beat Sunwell content because it was the highest tier of content.
(Your older quote: "Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.")
Having challenge, and having that challenge yield a meaningful reward, are the reasons why a game only allows the most skilled players to reach the highest tier of progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That risk is exactly why any FFA full loot game is going to be VERY niche in the western market. There simply aren't the demographics to support more than that in todays western market. Andy by today's western market you mean the mish mash mix of Console Gamers and FPSers that have picked up MMO Gaming because games like WOW have made it time/effort convienent? Sure. Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase. Do me a favor.....if you play WOW, log in and queue for a random Arathi Valley (40 man vs 40 man PvP Scenario) and look at all the piss poor play from the general populous. I mean down right maddning displays of idiocy that cannot be explained by a rational thinking human being. The worst part is many of those idiots have played the same scenario 50-100 times and yet they CONTINUE run straight into a lake of fire with little consequence. It wouldn't fly in UO......just sayin....
I've played WoW since late beta. I have three 80's a 70's and some 60's. I'm painfully familiar with that problem. I also note that it doesn't change over time. Some few learn proper tactics, but the rest... But show me a business model that would be nearly as successful in terms of money, that punishes its player base? Thats not the approach to take. Providing incentives, is rather different than punishment.
Well if you want a challenge, someone is going to be incapable of each higher tier of content. Only 2% of people beat Sunwell content because it was the highest tier of content.
(Your older quote: "Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.")
Having challenge, and having that challenge yield a meaningful reward, are the reasons why a game only allows the most skilled players to reach the highest tier of progression.
That challenge keeps a large number of people from accessing major portions of the game.
So basically, depending on your time allowed, in conjuction with your class, amongst other things you may or may not be able to do all parts of the game, and develop your character.
In games such as the ones i mentioned earlier, there was no content I can think of, that I, or anyone was incapable of reaching.
The challenge was defeating the other realm, guild, or player.
Sometimes you won, sometimes you lost. In DAoC, it was a benefit to your entire realm, in UO, it could be for your player town. In NwN, it was for GM granted items, and titles ( i believe thats what they were, it was a long time ago)
edit: from a quick bit of research, it seems in NWN you were rewarded with out of game titles, and possibly a couple of hours of free playtime (back when we payed aol by the hour), I'm sure there were other things, but nothing of significance
That challenge keeps a large number of people from accessing major portions of the game. So basically, depending on your time allowed, in conjuction with your class, amongst other things you may or may not be able to do all parts of the game, and develop your character. In games such as the ones i mentioned earlier, there was no content I can think of, that I, or anyone was incapable of reaching. The challenge was defeating the other realm, guild, or player
I'm not sure I'd consider a single raid instance "major portions" of WOW's content. I never saw Sunwell til post-expansion, yet I still had tons of content I was working through in the game at the time.
I mean the argument is running in circles at this point. The fact remains that, in order of importance:
A game must have Challenge. PVP-only games aside, if PVE isn't challenging people the game isn't fun. Period.
This Challenge leads to some players not being able to do everything. This is not great, since everyone wants to experience all content, but the alternative is not having Challenge and that's not really an alternative at all.
Really the only direction the conversation could go beyond this is delving into how the content is arranged. For example, there's a big difference in player perception between:
I've seen every dungeon in the game, but only on Normal (easy) difficulty, and
I can't handle Dungeon X at all because it's too hard for my skill level.
Both games are preventing the unskilled player from seeing all "content", but in the first example he's only missing out on a different difficulty level -- he still gets to experience all the sights/sounds/bosses of every dungeon.
Personally I lean towards the "see everything, but only on easy difficulty" version of things, especially when it's paired with a rewards structure which only dishes out the best rewards to the players completing the toughest difficulty. Of course rewards (gear/etc) are content, so even in this version of things the unskilled player won't see all content (actually they'll probably see the content on other characters...just not their own...which is part of why this version of content-exclusivity is more acceptable to players.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
fun games should have been our future not raid grind fests
Fun means different things to different people. Some people think that FFA full loot games are fun. But thats just about as far from fun to me as it gets. I enjoy running Level 4 missions in Eve, and never leave high sec. But that is totally alien to some other players. Given that MMO's tend to take millions of dollars and 2 to 4 years to create, a strong grasp of what fun IS to a given demographic is seriously required.
This FFA and full loot were "good" things about Ultima Online, so were the house systems and mounted combat which most games STILL don't have... From dying armor to making weapons to one of the if not the best player economy of all MMO's..
What made the game GREAT was that anyone and I mean anyone at most times can get away or kill the person or people they are engaged with..
Example..
I was on the shard Chesapeake with the guild Iron Chefs at the time which everyone on shard hated us, whenever we would gate to locations known to have guild/group fight all guilds in the location will stop fighting each other and come at us.. We would still win.. Not trying to be bragging or anything but that is just how the game worked, when you are a smart player you can over come all odds.. I've lived through and or killed more 2+ odds then not and it wasn't due to luck or gear it was skill... Skill is the only thing that mattered which lacks from most other games...
People complained about being ganked and pked but the truth of that is they needed to "L2P" by which I mean they should already be ready to be casting recall or have the hide skill hotkeyed...
People will always choose to have a game mechanic that is easy with outcomes mostly due to gear or level... The reason UO changes in my opionion is because of those very same hardcore WoW players whom I believe to be the ones who complained and "QQ" to GMs causing the death of UO..
Any thing built by a dev is a theme park, quests, towns, npcs, etc.
When you get to a sandbox, all there is is sand, it's up to you to make sandcastles, etc.
Most MMOs, with the exception of Second Life are a mixture of theme park and sandbox. The most you can say is UO has a few more sandbox elements than WoW, but not much.
You can play UO right now, it has a 14 day trial. I encourage anyone to try it for themselves. I doubt you'll be impressed.
UO is a theme park game. Any thing built by a dev is a theme park, quests, towns, npcs, etc.
When you get to a sandbox, all there is is sand, it's up to you to make sandcastles, etc. Most MMOs, with the exception of Second Life are a mixture of theme park and sandbox. The most you can say is UO has a few more sandbox elements than WoW, but not much. You can play UO right now, it has a 14 day trial. I encourage anyone to try it for themselves. I doubt you'll be impressed.
UO isn't what it once was. Back in the day, before the rise of the gankers/griefers it was quite entertaining. But only relative to what was available at the time. Its day has long passed.
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time.
I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all??
Originally posted by RajCaj LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
It is cheating on a certain level.
Skill in games is either Physical (twitch) or Mental (strategy/tactical skill and decisionmaking.)
Mental Skill is game knowledge and decisionmaking
Walkthroughs (including Boss Guides) are basically "Cheat sheets". Fast tracks for learning the knowledge.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
It's not cheating...its competitive advantage. Another great feature of Item-Centric games is that many people care more about the gear on their back than the community they play in. If your guild isn't progressing at a certian pace, or if your having trouble on a particular part of the raid, players move on to guilds that are progressing. I've seen it happen too many times.
Any guild that is not in the front wave to tackle a new dungeon uses the info available to them. After all, the faster they gear people, the easier the content gets and the faster you can put that dungeon on farm status and move on to the next. Please don't pretend that no one looks at those boss guides. Even if you aren't, your raid leader is and he/she is telling everyone exactly where to be and what to do.
Hard in UO PvE? For a 12 year old game, the AI wasn't very smart.....not far from what you find in most monsters you fight in current MMOs (WOW included). Whats really hard in WOW PvE? My old Guildmaster required everyone to watch videos and read websites that broke each bosses mechanics down by phase and by class. We knew exactly where we needed to be and what we needed to do at every point of the fight. Again......the only thing difficult or challenging about WOW PvE is a result of the gear everyone has and ensuring that everyone does their job (which in its own right seems a bit challenging for many WOW players) So you're saying you HAD TO cheat just to win. So the tactics were so difficult you couldn't figure it out on your own. You know, playing Jeapardy is pretty damn easy when you already know the answers. UO PvE was less about monster bashing and more about serving as a means to other ends. (Getting magic gear to sell on your vendor, gold to buy house decour from another players vendor, and yes.....showing off your crap to others in towns)
So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players? Every MMO has that=)
LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
WOW doesn't have the "trials and tribulations of dealing with other players" that UO had by a far shot. Your interaction with a player you buy or sell stuff to is limited to an Auction House GUI. No one knows the names of other players outside of their guild in their own faction much less notorious people in the opposing faction.
9 times out of 10 when someone is trying to get my attention in WOW, its "Hey Mage", not "Hey Raj". Absolutely Terrible....
So that makes YOU little johnny, since you couldn't lead those simple raids=) But if people want to cheat, thats their choice. That still doesn't discount the difficulty of the encounters. I guess you must play all your games on the easiest mode because everyone does it?
Now your reaching lol
1) I wasn't the guild leader, I was the guy who listened to orders and did my job.
2) Our inability to clear content, even though everyone was familiar with the strat was because the collective gear score wasn't high enough to be successful with other people acting like idiots. People AFKing unannounced, watching TV, alt-tabed doing something else during a freakn' raid.
WOW is hard because your items aren't good enough or the people around you that you depend on are terrible and shouldn't be playing a team game in the first place.
And please don't give me this easy mode BS.......unless your in one of those upper echellon raiding guilds that have maxed out their gear a months ahead of the next expansion, your researching the strats too.
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time. I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all?? Timmy
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
fun games should have been our future not raid grind fests
It will take some time before people get bored of the current stuff and someone makes something new and exciting. Usually happens every 10 years.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
That risk is exactly why any FFA full loot game is going to be VERY niche in the western market. There simply aren't the demographics to support more than that in todays western market. Andy by today's western market you mean the mish mash mix of Console Gamers and FPSers that have picked up MMO Gaming because games like WOW have made it time/effort convienent? Sure. Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase. Do me a favor.....if you play WOW, log in and queue for a random Arathi Valley (40 man vs 40 man PvP Scenario) and look at all the piss poor play from the general populous. I mean down right maddning displays of idiocy that cannot be explained by a rational thinking human being. The worst part is many of those idiots have played the same scenario 50-100 times and yet they CONTINUE run straight into a lake of fire with little consequence. It wouldn't fly in UO......just sayin....
I've played WoW since late beta. I have three 80's a 70's and some 60's. I'm painfully familiar with that problem. I also note that it doesn't change over time. Some few learn proper tactics, but the rest... But show me a business model that would be nearly as successful in terms of money, that punishes its player base? Thats not the approach to take. Providing incentives, is rather different than punishment.
I've given Blizzard props on their acomplishment. There is no doubt that they knocked the ball out of the park on their venture into MMO Gaming with a superior subscription model.
Ultima Online was in the guiness book of world records for the highest number of online game subscriptions at somewhere around 200,000 subs.
WOW claims to have somewhere around 11,000,000. They took out nearly all the risk and reduced the amount of time required to do stuff so that they could not only move in on the current MMO market, they expanded the market to include gamers who play and get enjoyment out of games for very different reasons than what the old MMO games gave.
Well what do you do about the people who originally played MMOs for the sence of community, who found value in in items and accumulated wealth that took time and effort to get, who found excitement in risky or dangerous environments?
You create a situation where your the only viable game to play, which is essentially what Blizzard has done. The people who enjoy the aspects of "old MMO gaming" put up with MMORPG-Lite because there isn't much else out there (other than a hopeful few weeks spent playing the latest n' greatist new MMO only to find out its the same business)
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time. I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all?? Timmy
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?
Comments
Ahh so they don't actually get smarter, they just get more levels in the next expansion.
But at that point, the rewards are useless.
Until that point, the rewards are great -- and only attained by those who play skillfully.
Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.
/shrug
edit: I'd also assume that each character in the group going must be min/maxed to the high heavens, and if i didnt play one of the holy trinity, i may as well completly forget going? I'm asking, i don't know....
Marcus you can be a part of the elite and special two percent of the WoW gaming community if you were to dedicate 8 to 10 hours a day of grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
Timmy
It is cheating on a certain level.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Marcus you can be a part of the elite and special two percent of the WoW gaming community if you were to dedicate 8 to 10 hours a day of grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
Timmy
I'd risk saying that more than 20% of wow players dedicate 8 to 10 hours or more a day, grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
and 18% still fail
Its obvious there are more to it than you'd think.
and definetly none of it could be found in UO, the intangible god entity that for some reason i cant fathom (and I played UO back then) people seem to praise so loudly around here, and which made the MMO genre...turn the opposite side for greater success.
So your ideal game lacks challenge? It sounds like you want (at least that 2% minority) to not have sufficiently challenging gameplay...
WOW doesn't provide this sort of "exclusive" content anymore anyway. Nowadays the majority of players are capable of seeing instances, and a good deal of them beating those instances on normal mode -- but the hard modes of these raids are what's exclusive now.
I don't fully agree with their exact difficulty implementation (it's too hard to find your "sweet spot" of challenge to earn optimal rewards for your current progression) but it's at least a reasonably smart way of doing things.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
.........
So your ideal game lacks challenge? It sounds like you want (at least that 2% minority) to not have sufficiently challenging gameplay...
WOW doesn't provide this sort of "exclusive" content anymore anyway. Nowadays the majority of players are capable of seeing instances, and a good deal of them beating those instances on normal mode -- but the hard modes of these raids are what's exclusive now.
I don't fully agree with their exact difficulty implementation (it's too hard to find your "sweet spot" of challenge to earn optimal rewards for your current progression) but it's at least a reasonably smart way of doing things.
No, i love a challenge actually.
My first MMO was Neverwinter Nights in '94-'95, and for a game that wasnt suppose to have PvP, it was its main focus (imo), and i would guess it could be considered a a sandbox. From there I moved onto UO which also had a PvP focus, and was a sandbox. My other games were DAOC, and SWG.
Once i got to WoW, i got my first raid experience, and i absolutely hated it.
The waiting, the instance, the holy trinity, the min/maxing, the lock out timers... just about every part of it... I was a product of my enviorment i suppose
I play MMOs for the PvP challenge, especially, but not limited to, guild vs guild, or RvR.
So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players? Every MMO has that=)
LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
WOW doesn't have the "trials and tribulations of dealing with other players" that UO had by a far shot. Your interaction with a player you buy or sell stuff to is limited to an Auction House GUI. No one knows the names of other players outside of their guild in their own faction much less notorious people in the opposing faction.
9 times out of 10 when someone is trying to get my attention in WOW, its "Hey Mage", not "Hey Raj". Absolutely Terrible....
So that makes YOU little johnny, since you couldn't lead those simple raids=) But if people want to cheat, thats their choice. That still doesn't discount the difficulty of the encounters. I guess you must play all your games on the easiest mode because everyone does it?
Marcus you can be a part of the elite and special two percent of the WoW gaming community if you were to dedicate 8 to 10 hours a day of grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
Timmy
I'd risk saying that more than 20% of wow players dedicate 8 to 10 hours or more a day, grinding for weeks and weeks to get the necessary gear to be a part of the "skilled" 2 percent of the community.
and 18% still fail
Its obvious there are more to it than you'd think.
and definetly none of it could be found in UO, the intangible god entity that for some reason i cant fathom (and I played UO back then) people seem to praise so loudly around here, and which made the MMO genre...turn the opposite side for greater success.
LOL...it doesn't matter if 18 percent fail, a grind is still a grind. You'll probably lose a lot of gold on repairs and such, but it's not like you're losing anything significant like fancy items or fancy gear if your group fails to complete a dungeon or a raid. But any toddler can simply spend hours upon hours grinding to obtain more gold. It's not really impacting the game world in a positive or negative manner, your actions do nothing to help the alliance(or Horde) gain power or influence over the world. It's all about getting the best gear for the "individual."
It would be a different story if your guild were to loose an actual item or gear from a failed attempt. Or if a group failed to complete a raid the opposing faction got to choose an item from your guild bank. That would add more risk and reward to the equation.
As I said before I could "work" my ass off by playing 8 to 10 hours a day to and become 2 percent of the "skilled" community and fail to get what I want, the only significant thing I would have lost was time. If I become a part of the 2 percent community and DO succeed in getting that "epic sunwell gear," I still lose again because I would have lost time.
I'd rather spend 6-8 hours a week for 1 or 2 weeks, perfoming high risk/high reward quest/dungeons/raids than spend 8-10 hours a day for several weeks doing mind numbing task without the threat of risking anything significant to get that epic item.
Timmy
So your ideal game lacks challenge? It sounds like you want (at least that 2% minority) to not have sufficiently challenging gameplay...
WOW doesn't provide this sort of "exclusive" content anymore anyway. Nowadays the majority of players are capable of seeing instances, and a good deal of them beating those instances on normal mode -- but the hard modes of these raids are what's exclusive now.
I don't fully agree with their exact difficulty implementation (it's too hard to find your "sweet spot" of challenge to earn optimal rewards for your current progression) but it's at least a reasonably smart way of doing things.
Exactly. This is smart use of resources. I have never done sunwell .. not in that 2% but i have done TOC and I am in a raiding guild doing ICC. My old guild cannot do hard modes, i will see if this new one will.
We spend whole evening 2-3 hours trying and succeeding in downing the blood prince. Anyone who says WOW has no challenges is certainly WOW. We are all appropriately geared (at least TOC, many with some ICC gear) and we tried several runs to learn the mechanics and figuring out what to do (no watching video on this one). Then we buff up, put on all the flask and stuff, and kill the princes. I am so happy even though i did not get any loot.
The Blood Prince is NOT a super hard fight but you still need to learn a few things (where to tank the 3 princes, switch, deal with special abilities), and coordinating 25 people is HARD .. no matter what you say.
Well if you want a challenge, someone is going to be incapable of each higher tier of content. Only 2% of people beat Sunwell content because it was the highest tier of content.
(Your older quote: "Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.")
Having challenge, and having that challenge yield a meaningful reward, are the reasons why a game only allows the most skilled players to reach the highest tier of progression.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've played WoW since late beta. I have three 80's a 70's and some 60's. I'm painfully familiar with that problem. I also note that it doesn't change over time. Some few learn proper tactics, but the rest... But show me a business model that would be nearly as successful in terms of money, that punishes its player base? Thats not the approach to take. Providing incentives, is rather different than punishment.
Well if you want a challenge, someone is going to be incapable of each higher tier of content. Only 2% of people beat Sunwell content because it was the highest tier of content.
(Your older quote: "Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that 2% is of 11million.")
Having challenge, and having that challenge yield a meaningful reward, are the reasons why a game only allows the most skilled players to reach the highest tier of progression.
That challenge keeps a large number of people from accessing major portions of the game.
So basically, depending on your time allowed, in conjuction with your class, amongst other things you may or may not be able to do all parts of the game, and develop your character.
In games such as the ones i mentioned earlier, there was no content I can think of, that I, or anyone was incapable of reaching.
The challenge was defeating the other realm, guild, or player.
Sometimes you won, sometimes you lost. In DAoC, it was a benefit to your entire realm, in UO, it could be for your player town. In NwN, it was for GM granted items, and titles ( i believe thats what they were, it was a long time ago)
edit: from a quick bit of research, it seems in NWN you were rewarded with out of game titles, and possibly a couple of hours of free playtime (back when we payed aol by the hour), I'm sure there were other things, but nothing of significance
I'm not sure I'd consider a single raid instance "major portions" of WOW's content. I never saw Sunwell til post-expansion, yet I still had tons of content I was working through in the game at the time.
I mean the argument is running in circles at this point. The fact remains that, in order of importance:
Really the only direction the conversation could go beyond this is delving into how the content is arranged. For example, there's a big difference in player perception between:
Both games are preventing the unskilled player from seeing all "content", but in the first example he's only missing out on a different difficulty level -- he still gets to experience all the sights/sounds/bosses of every dungeon.
Personally I lean towards the "see everything, but only on easy difficulty" version of things, especially when it's paired with a rewards structure which only dishes out the best rewards to the players completing the toughest difficulty. Of course rewards (gear/etc) are content, so even in this version of things the unskilled player won't see all content (actually they'll probably see the content on other characters...just not their own...which is part of why this version of content-exclusivity is more acceptable to players.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
fun games should have been our future not raid grind fests
Fun means different things to different people. Some people think that FFA full loot games are fun. But thats just about as far from fun to me as it gets. I enjoy running Level 4 missions in Eve, and never leave high sec. But that is totally alien to some other players. Given that MMO's tend to take millions of dollars and 2 to 4 years to create, a strong grasp of what fun IS to a given demographic is seriously required.
This FFA and full loot were "good" things about Ultima Online, so were the house systems and mounted combat which most games STILL don't have... From dying armor to making weapons to one of the if not the best player economy of all MMO's..
What made the game GREAT was that anyone and I mean anyone at most times can get away or kill the person or people they are engaged with..
Example..
I was on the shard Chesapeake with the guild Iron Chefs at the time which everyone on shard hated us, whenever we would gate to locations known to have guild/group fight all guilds in the location will stop fighting each other and come at us.. We would still win.. Not trying to be bragging or anything but that is just how the game worked, when you are a smart player you can over come all odds.. I've lived through and or killed more 2+ odds then not and it wasn't due to luck or gear it was skill... Skill is the only thing that mattered which lacks from most other games...
People complained about being ganked and pked but the truth of that is they needed to "L2P" by which I mean they should already be ready to be casting recall or have the hide skill hotkeyed...
People will always choose to have a game mechanic that is easy with outcomes mostly due to gear or level... The reason UO changes in my opionion is because of those very same hardcore WoW players whom I believe to be the ones who complained and "QQ" to GMs causing the death of UO..
UO is a theme park game.
Any thing built by a dev is a theme park, quests, towns, npcs, etc.
When you get to a sandbox, all there is is sand, it's up to you to make sandcastles, etc.
Most MMOs, with the exception of Second Life are a mixture of theme park and sandbox. The most you can say is UO has a few more sandbox elements than WoW, but not much.
You can play UO right now, it has a 14 day trial. I encourage anyone to try it for themselves. I doubt you'll be impressed.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
UO isn't what it once was. Back in the day, before the rise of the gankers/griefers it was quite entertaining. But only relative to what was available at the time. Its day has long passed.
I got bored with WoW at level 28. I just couldn't take the grind anymore. I realized I was killing the same monsters and doing the same dungeons over and over again. Over time it became too mind numbing and I quit. There was no risk or any real reward to what I was doing. All the game was doing was sucking up my time.
I don't want to have to do mind numbing quest to get to the top 2 percent of the population eligible to partake in a raid. I'd rather work with a group of people on my server or faction to accomplish a goal in a high risk, high reward manner. WoW is just a single player game with a bunch of people running around doing their own mind numbing quest in an effort to get the best gear and brag to their friends....how is this style of play health to the mmo genre? Heck how is it healthy at all??
Timmy
It is cheating on a certain level.
So the problem with you calling WOW "easy" is you've admitted to investing considerable effort into learning the game (how many other games did you invest time into boss videos for?)
Perhaps if you had examples of non-twitch games with "hard" PVE, you'd have an argument going for yourself -- but I'd be willing to bet that those other MMORPGs were only "hard" from a lack of information-sharing.
It's not cheating...its competitive advantage. Another great feature of Item-Centric games is that many people care more about the gear on their back than the community they play in. If your guild isn't progressing at a certian pace, or if your having trouble on a particular part of the raid, players move on to guilds that are progressing. I've seen it happen too many times.
Any guild that is not in the front wave to tackle a new dungeon uses the info available to them. After all, the faster they gear people, the easier the content gets and the faster you can put that dungeon on farm status and move on to the next. Please don't pretend that no one looks at those boss guides. Even if you aren't, your raid leader is and he/she is telling everyone exactly where to be and what to do.
So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players? Every MMO has that=)
LOL Cheat? Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available. People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing.
WOW doesn't have the "trials and tribulations of dealing with other players" that UO had by a far shot. Your interaction with a player you buy or sell stuff to is limited to an Auction House GUI. No one knows the names of other players outside of their guild in their own faction much less notorious people in the opposing faction.
9 times out of 10 when someone is trying to get my attention in WOW, its "Hey Mage", not "Hey Raj". Absolutely Terrible....
So that makes YOU little johnny, since you couldn't lead those simple raids=) But if people want to cheat, thats their choice. That still doesn't discount the difficulty of the encounters. I guess you must play all your games on the easiest mode because everyone does it?
Now your reaching lol
1) I wasn't the guild leader, I was the guy who listened to orders and did my job.
2) Our inability to clear content, even though everyone was familiar with the strat was because the collective gear score wasn't high enough to be successful with other people acting like idiots. People AFKing unannounced, watching TV, alt-tabed doing something else during a freakn' raid.
WOW is hard because your items aren't good enough or the people around you that you depend on are terrible and shouldn't be playing a team game in the first place.
And please don't give me this easy mode BS.......unless your in one of those upper echellon raiding guilds that have maxed out their gear a months ahead of the next expansion, your researching the strats too.
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
It will take some time before people get bored of the current stuff and someone makes something new and exciting. Usually happens every 10 years.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I've played WoW since late beta. I have three 80's a 70's and some 60's. I'm painfully familiar with that problem. I also note that it doesn't change over time. Some few learn proper tactics, but the rest... But show me a business model that would be nearly as successful in terms of money, that punishes its player base? Thats not the approach to take. Providing incentives, is rather different than punishment.
I've given Blizzard props on their acomplishment. There is no doubt that they knocked the ball out of the park on their venture into MMO Gaming with a superior subscription model.
Ultima Online was in the guiness book of world records for the highest number of online game subscriptions at somewhere around 200,000 subs.
WOW claims to have somewhere around 11,000,000. They took out nearly all the risk and reduced the amount of time required to do stuff so that they could not only move in on the current MMO market, they expanded the market to include gamers who play and get enjoyment out of games for very different reasons than what the old MMO games gave.
Well what do you do about the people who originally played MMOs for the sence of community, who found value in in items and accumulated wealth that took time and effort to get, who found excitement in risky or dangerous environments?
You create a situation where your the only viable game to play, which is essentially what Blizzard has done. The people who enjoy the aspects of "old MMO gaming" put up with MMORPG-Lite because there isn't much else out there (other than a hopeful few weeks spent playing the latest n' greatist new MMO only to find out its the same business)
Well to each their own. But in a game that goes to level 80(I have three 80's a 70 and some 60's) going to level 28 doesn't really expose you to that much of the content. Sure it can be a gear hamster wheel, thats pretty much the nature of these types of games. But some of the later instances can be interesting. Not to mention theres more than PvE. Try one of the PvP realms, if you want more conflict. WoW is pretty much what you make of it at this point. With the new dungeon finder system, you can level just by running instances. While you are doing that you are earning emblems. You can use those at 80 to gear yourself up, so you never have to raid if you don't want to.
One other thing.....
You said you've witnessed the rediculous amount of idiocy that occurs in Battlegrounds. Do you think the average WOW PvPer in a Battleground would respond in a way that they played the game smarter if they had their rewards for losing and playing bad taken away?
I mean, if a player could not progress their honor or recieve tokens for not playing the objectives in an objective based PvP scenario, do you think they would still be fighting in random fields, roads, and doing stupid crap like trying to solo 5 people at once, or leaving objectives unguarded?