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UO should have been our future

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  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by Ozmodan


    I was going to say something about this so called tank mage bent you were on the first time, but decided to let it slide.   If you had played UO much you would realize that the tank mage was pretty much relegated to very early UO as rules changes made them far less useful. 
    It is also nonsense about roles, UO had tons of roles you could play depending on your skillset and they could be required in many different situations.  All your post does is display ignorance of UO and how limited your role was in EQ.


    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

    Its funny, because i did the same thing with this, and was actually going to say, one of my favorite "classes" of all time was my macer in UO..

    Being able to slowly destroy someones armor till it fell off of them use to just make me smile.. When my guild used to have pvp practice nights every Sunday, folks would just ICQ the hell out of me ; )

     

     

    Can you imagine having the capabilities of destrying someones armour in this day and age of MMOs?

    Blashemy!

    It's Blasphemy because almost all of the "themepark" MMOs revolve around GEAR.  If 90% of your time is spent trying to get that next piece of gear and someone broke it...or looted it off your dead body, of course they would quit your game on the spot.

     

    A perminant gear model limits so much of what your able to do as far as RISK is involved in gameplay.  Higher Risk yeilds Higher Rewards yeilds Higher Highs.

     

    That risk is exactly why any FFA full loot game is going to be VERY niche in the western market.  There simply aren't the demographics to support more than that in todays western market.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Ozmodan



    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

     

    And i feel more sorry for the UO advocates who are holding on the past and won't accept the future.  Pretty sad that you cannot recognize that fact.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Marcus-


    UO was still popular during its trammel days, though people like to say that was its downfall. Trammel was basically consentual PvP..  Eventually, they went down the road of risk vs. reward with Trammel and Felucca, which i thought was going to be really helpful, but it never got its legs..



     

    Yeah, looking at the subscriber estimates (or maybe they were based on hard datapoints, I dunno) it seemed like that expansion (May 2000) definitely avoided a plateau in subscriptions

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,004
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Ozmodan



    Yeah I actually feel sorry for the EQ advocates, they cannot grasp the fact how limited the game made their characters.  Pretty sad you cannot recognize that fact.

     

    And i feel more sorry for the UO advocates who are holding on the past and won't accept the future.  Pretty sad that you cannot recognize that fact.



     

    I'd go out on a limb and say, with the recent "sucess" of games like EvE, and Darkfall, we might be a lot closer than you think to a little momentum switch in the development cycle.

    Success being measured how much was put into development, with what can be percieved as being a subscription base.

    I'm not saying themeparks are going away by any means, or they aren't going to be the more dominant developed game, but, I do believe its just a matter of time before some one believes they can make a serious buck on this type of game, and I don't mean full loot neccasarily.. Just a wide open PvP focused sandbox.

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,004
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Marcus-


    UO was still popular during its trammel days, though people like to say that was its downfall. Trammel was basically consentual PvP..  Eventually, they went down the road of risk vs. reward with Trammel and Felucca, which i thought was going to be really helpful, but it never got its legs..



     

    Yeah, looking at the subscriber estimates (or maybe they were based on hard datapoints, I dunno) it seemed like that expansion (May 2000) definitely avoided a plateau in subscriptions



     

    Looking at that graph, Age of Shadows was released Feb 2003..

  • ColdrenColdren Member UncommonPosts: 495
    Originally posted by nariusseldon



    Right now, I'm enjoying swinging my axe at a tree to raise up my lumbering in Darkfall a thousand times because I LIKE the fact that it feels like I'm accomplishing something not everyone will do, making my efforts worth something. Add to that the fact that in DF, I can easily be killed if I'm not careful doing my mining and lumbering or fishing, and it does make those tasks which usually seem mundane or dull to others, actually interesting AND difficult.
    Well, anyone who thinks swinging at a tree a thousand time, even have to watch their back, is fun ... is certainly not mainstream. I wouldn't play a game where the game mechanics is so boring. I would much rather go to run a dungeon. At least i got to FIGHT something, which is fun.
    And if that feels an accomplishment, try writing "I like DF" 1000 times. I am sure that is something "not everyone will do" and make your effort worth something ... NOT.
     


    Perhaps it's not the swinging of the axe a thousand times, so much as I like the feeling that I'm working towards some kind of reward that few will have, and I will? The act of cutting the trees itself is dull, but given that I can be killed at any moment, have to fight back, and can lose everything is what makes a mundane task exciting AND rewarding. And the best part of THAT is, it's a choice. I don't HAVE to cut trees to get what I want - I can fight things all day for Gold if I really wanted to, but what I do is 100% MY choice. Hell, I can kill other people chopping trees if I want to. When a game limits you so that all you can do is fight to advance yourself, there are always less options, less diversity, and even fewer consequences to wrong choices or poor ability.


    You're not going to get it. You are the target casual audience who will run a dungeon 1000 times to get 3 pieces of loot, only to do so again when they release the next dungeon. And there's nothing really wrong with it, but what gives you a sense of accomplishment isn't a slow buildup, it's grind, grind, ooOOoo, piece of candy. Then repeat.


    More than that, there's nothing dynamic about any instance, especially in class-based game - The mobs are in the same place, you use the same tactics, the same skills, again, and again, and again. You're 3 steps removed from chopping trees, but you act as though it's somehow far and away different. Unless you're PvP'ing (And in class based games, again, likely to see repeating patterns of skills used, in an instance, resetting, repeating scenario), there's not much dynamic about it.


    And if that's your thing, great, but maybe you should play games like Call of Duty or RTS' where all you DO is fight. I don't see, from a gameplay perspective, why you play an MMO at all.


    And if writing "I Like Darkfall" was a step in the process of being able to build large warships with cannons that people would want me to make, so we could blow things up, and I could barter with and form connections that will help me in other regards and help make new friends,well.. I'd be happy to do it.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    And if that's your thing, great, but maybe you should play games like Call of Duty or RTS' where all you DO is fight. I don't see, from a gameplay perspective, why you play an MMO at all.

    Of course I play CoD Modern Combat 1 & 2. They are the greatest FPS ever made. I have my jaws dropped couple of times in some of the missions.

    Why I play MMOs? Simple. You can't get complex PvE fights, in cooperation with friends (or guildies) unless you play MMOs. And wow is the best in giving you that.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704

    That risk is exactly why any FFA full loot game is going to be VERY niche in the western market. There simply aren't the demographics to support more than that in todays western market.

    Andy by today's western market you mean the mish mash mix of Console Gamers and FPSers that have picked up MMO Gaming because games like WOW have made it time/effort convienent?   Sure.

    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.

    Do me a favor.....if you play WOW, log in and queue for a random Arathi Valley (40 man vs 40 man PvP Scenario) and look at all the piss poor play from the general populous.  I mean down right maddning displays of idiocy that cannot be explained by a rational thinking human being. 

    The worst part is many of those idiots have played the same scenario 50-100 times and yet they CONTINUE run straight into a lake of fire with little consequence.

    It wouldn't fly in UO......just sayin....

  • arcdevilarcdevil Member Posts: 864
    Originally posted by RajCaj


    It wouldn't fly in UO......just sayin....

    indeed, 40 vs 40 in UO would mean gathering all the people in the most active shard in one place at once...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.

    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk

    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).

    Ditto for hard modes.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by arcdevil

    Originally posted by RajCaj


    It wouldn't fly in UO......just sayin....

    indeed, 40 vs 40 in UO would mean gathering all the people in the most active shard in one place at once...



     

    Clever.....

    Still doesn't change anything I said lol

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,004
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    I've raided before......and even after doing the same raid dungeon time and time again there were STILL people who AFKd when told not to, people who didn't run to the spot they were supposed to run to after being told over and over again, people who didn't cast a particular spell or people who didn't  pick up a certian add when they were told over and over and over again.

    I specificly remember sitting in a raid once and thought these guys must either be mentally challenged or they just don't give a crap...because this stuff wasn't hard.  It was difficult because the stats on everyone's gear might have not been at the right level.....but the strategy wasn't hard.  More times than not, most problems with peolpe not doing what they were told was because they were doing something stupid like Watching TV, Alt Tabed or off doing something else.

    Had those people had anything meaningful to risk, I have to believe those people would have made sure they were attentive in game and followed orders as instructed.

    Same goes for PvP.......if the idiot Horde that continued to run Solo into a group of 5 alliance at Blacksmith over and over and over actually had something to risk, he might have found some way to be a bit more productive......like not suicide kamakazi running into certian death.....or helping out other teamates for example.

    Challenge in WOW = Gearcheck.  If you don't have the gear for the encounter, there is no amount of skill and command over your character that will make a difference.  Thats a cheap way to make things "Challenging" IMO

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  

    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?

     

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,004
    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  

    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?

     



     

    Ahh so they don't actually get smarter, they just get more levels in the next expansion.

     

  • Tim_BraidTim_Braid Member UncommonPosts: 36
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    I've raided before......and even after doing the same raid dungeon time and time again there were STILL people who AFKd when told not to, people who didn't run to the spot they were supposed to run to after being told over and over again, people who didn't cast a particular spell or people who didn't  pick up a certian add when they were told over and over and over again.

    I specificly remember sitting in a raid once and thought these guys must either be mentally challenged or they just don't give a crap...because this stuff wasn't hard.  It was difficult because the stats on everyone's gear might have not been at the right level.....but the strategy wasn't hard.  More times than not, most problems with peolpe not doing what they were told was because they were doing something stupid like Watching TV, Alt Tabed or off doing something else.

    Had those people had anything meaningful to risk, I have to believe those people would have made sure they were attentive in game and followed orders as instructed.

    Same goes for PvP.......if the idiot Horde that continued to run Solo into a group of 5 alliance at Blacksmith over and over and over actually had something to risk, he might have found some way to be a bit more productive......like not suicide kamakazi running into certian death.....or helping out other teamates for example.

    Challenge in WOW = Gearcheck.  If you don't have the gear for the encounter, there is no amount of skill and command over your character that will make a difference.  Thats a cheap way to make things "Challenging" IMO



     

    Well said RajCaj,

    Besides, who cares if if you spent 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2-3 months to get that rare special item only to have someone steal it from you in a matter of days via ganking or pk'ing. Your time would have been wasted even if you had kept that special item.

    I'd rather spend a few hours a week with a group of people working to sneak into an opposing guild/factions guild hall hack into their bank to steal their legendary sword of a thousand truths(of course all done legally ingame), than spend 6 months for 8 hours a day grinding the same damn quest over and over again to get the legendary item "stone of a million cocks."

    I'd rather risk loosing my gear to get better gear from an opposing player than waste my time doing the same repetitve actions over and over again with no risk and therefore, no real reward.

    Timmy

  • SkarothlockSkarothlock Member Posts: 89
    Originally posted by Tim_Braid

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    I've raided before......and even after doing the same raid dungeon time and time again there were STILL people who AFKd when told not to, people who didn't run to the spot they were supposed to run to after being told over and over again, people who didn't cast a particular spell or people who didn't  pick up a certian add when they were told over and over and over again.

    I specificly remember sitting in a raid once and thought these guys must either be mentally challenged or they just don't give a crap...because this stuff wasn't hard.  It was difficult because the stats on everyone's gear might have not been at the right level.....but the strategy wasn't hard.  More times than not, most problems with peolpe not doing what they were told was because they were doing something stupid like Watching TV, Alt Tabed or off doing something else.

    Had those people had anything meaningful to risk, I have to believe those people would have made sure they were attentive in game and followed orders as instructed.

    Same goes for PvP.......if the idiot Horde that continued to run Solo into a group of 5 alliance at Blacksmith over and over and over actually had something to risk, he might have found some way to be a bit more productive......like not suicide kamakazi running into certian death.....or helping out other teamates for example.

    Challenge in WOW = Gearcheck.  If you don't have the gear for the encounter, there is no amount of skill and command over your character that will make a difference.  Thats a cheap way to make things "Challenging" IMO



     

    Well said RajCaj,

    Besides, who cares if if you spent 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2-3 months to get that rare special item only to have someone steal it from you in a matter of days via ganking or pk'ing. Your time would have been wasted even if you had kept that special item.

    I'd rather spend a few hours a week with a group of people working to sneak into an opposing guild/factions guild hall hack into their bank to steal their legendary sword of a thousand truths(of course all done legally ingame), than spend 6 months for 8 hours a day grinding the same damn quest over and over again to get the legendary item "stone of a million cocks."

    I'd rather risk loosing my gear to get better gear from an opposing player than waste my time doing the same repetitve actions over and over again with no risk and therefore, no real reward.

    Timmy

     

    The risk is your time...

    While I am not one to grind... I hate that shit, and I do like to pvp, people like to risk their time to get a reward.  YOU might not see that as a valuable risk, but they do... and luckily for them (all 15-20 million p2p pve'rs in the world) you do not design their games.

    The thing is... capitalism is beautiful in this particular regard.  If there is a market (i.e. high risk pvp - total item loss, perma death etc...) then a company will build to exploit that market.  How many games cater to what you want?  Ever wonder why?

    Skaroth

    See the violence inherent in the system!

    image
  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by Skarothlock

    Originally posted by Tim_Braid

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    I've raided before......and even after doing the same raid dungeon time and time again there were STILL people who AFKd when told not to, people who didn't run to the spot they were supposed to run to after being told over and over again, people who didn't cast a particular spell or people who didn't  pick up a certian add when they were told over and over and over again.

    I specificly remember sitting in a raid once and thought these guys must either be mentally challenged or they just don't give a crap...because this stuff wasn't hard.  It was difficult because the stats on everyone's gear might have not been at the right level.....but the strategy wasn't hard.  More times than not, most problems with peolpe not doing what they were told was because they were doing something stupid like Watching TV, Alt Tabed or off doing something else.

    Had those people had anything meaningful to risk, I have to believe those people would have made sure they were attentive in game and followed orders as instructed.

    Same goes for PvP.......if the idiot Horde that continued to run Solo into a group of 5 alliance at Blacksmith over and over and over actually had something to risk, he might have found some way to be a bit more productive......like not suicide kamakazi running into certian death.....or helping out other teamates for example.

    Challenge in WOW = Gearcheck.  If you don't have the gear for the encounter, there is no amount of skill and command over your character that will make a difference.  Thats a cheap way to make things "Challenging" IMO



     

    Well said RajCaj,

    Besides, who cares if if you spent 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2-3 months to get that rare special item only to have someone steal it from you in a matter of days via ganking or pk'ing. Your time would have been wasted even if you had kept that special item.

    I'd rather spend a few hours a week with a group of people working to sneak into an opposing guild/factions guild hall hack into their bank to steal their legendary sword of a thousand truths(of course all done legally ingame), than spend 6 months for 8 hours a day grinding the same damn quest over and over again to get the legendary item "stone of a million cocks."

    I'd rather risk loosing my gear to get better gear from an opposing player than waste my time doing the same repetitve actions over and over again with no risk and therefore, no real reward.

    Timmy

     

    The risk is your time...

    While I am not one to grind... I hate that shit, and I do like to pvp, people like to risk their time to get a reward.  YOU might not see that as a valuable risk, but they do... and luckily for them (all 15-20 million p2p pve'rs in the world) you do not design their games.

    The thing is... capitalism is beautiful in this particular regard.  If there is a market (i.e. high risk pvp - total item loss, perma death etc...) then a company will build to exploit that market.  How many games cater to what you want?  Ever wonder why?

    Skaroth

    Irrelevant!!!  Whats "great" or what "should be" is what one person thinks=)  If he thinks the sky is filled with purple polka dots, than it is.  Everyone else doesn't matter.  Developers should spend millions designing games for the .01% because some guys on a forum said so.  Actually, developers just want to feed their families.

  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  

    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?

     

    Hard in UO PvE?  For a 12 year old game, the AI wasn't very smart.....not far from what you find in most monsters you fight in current MMOs (WOW included). 

     

    Whats really hard in WOW PvE?  My old Guildmaster required everyone to watch videos and read websites that broke each bosses mechanics down by phase and by class.  We knew exactly where we needed to be and what we needed to do at every point of the fight.  Again......the only thing difficult or challenging about WOW PvE is a result of the gear everyone has and ensuring that everyone does their job (which in its own right seems a bit challenging for many WOW players)

    UO PvE was less about monster bashing and more about serving as a means to other ends. (Getting magic gear to sell on your vendor, gold to buy house decour from another players vendor, and yes.....showing off your crap to others in towns)

    As for dealing with exploiters and gankers........yes, pretty hard.  I've been duped on several occasions and each one only happend once.  Because items/gear are plentyful, losing your crap isn't the end of the world if you end up on the short stick of the encounter.....enough encouragment to critically think about things in game before you do them, but not enough to break your toon.

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  

    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?

     

    Hard in UO PvE?  For a 12 year old game, the AI wasn't very smart.....not far from what you find in most monsters you fight in current MMOs (WOW included). 

     

    Whats really hard in WOW PvE?  My old Guildmaster required everyone to watch videos and read websites that broke each bosses mechanics down by phase and by class.  We knew exactly where we needed to be and what we needed to do at every point of the fight.  Again......the only thing difficult or challenging about WOW PvE is a result of the gear everyone has and ensuring that everyone does their job (which in its own right seems a bit challenging for many WOW players)

    So you're saying you HAD TO cheat just to win.  So the tactics were so difficult you couldn't figure it out on your own.   You know, playing Jeapardy is pretty damn easy when you already know the answers.   

    UO PvE was less about monster bashing and more about serving as a means to other ends. (Getting magic gear to sell on your vendor, gold to buy house decour from another players vendor, and yes.....showing off your crap to others in towns)

    So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players?  Every MMO has that=)  

     

     

     

  • SkarothlockSkarothlock Member Posts: 89
    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  

    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?

     

    Hard in UO PvE?  For a 12 year old game, the AI wasn't very smart.....not far from what you find in most monsters you fight in current MMOs (WOW included). 

     

    Whats really hard in WOW PvE?  My old Guildmaster required everyone to watch videos and read websites that broke each bosses mechanics down by phase and by class.  We knew exactly where we needed to be and what we needed to do at every point of the fight.  Again......the only thing difficult or challenging about WOW PvE is a result of the gear everyone has and ensuring that everyone does their job (which in its own right seems a bit challenging for many WOW players)

    So you're saying you HAD TO cheat just to win.  So the tactics were so difficult you couldn't figure it out on your own.   You know, playing Jeapardy is pretty damn easy when you already know the answers.   

    UO PvE was less about monster bashing and more about serving as a means to other ends. (Getting magic gear to sell on your vendor, gold to buy house decour from another players vendor, and yes.....showing off your crap to others in towns)

    So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players?  Every MMO has that=)  

     

     

    I LOL'd when I read his post... I was thinking that very same thing.  What about the first people to go through?  Easy for them?  You want the raid to be hard, go in with people who have never done the fight and not watched any videos. 

    Skaroth

     

     

    See the violence inherent in the system!

    image
  • RajCajRajCaj Member UncommonPosts: 704
    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    Apparently the challenge isn't cutting it if only 2% of 11 million have even seen it.

     

    How long has it been out?

    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  

    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers?

     

    Hard in UO PvE?  For a 12 year old game, the AI wasn't very smart.....not far from what you find in most monsters you fight in current MMOs (WOW included). 

     

    Whats really hard in WOW PvE?  My old Guildmaster required everyone to watch videos and read websites that broke each bosses mechanics down by phase and by class.  We knew exactly where we needed to be and what we needed to do at every point of the fight.  Again......the only thing difficult or challenging about WOW PvE is a result of the gear everyone has and ensuring that everyone does their job (which in its own right seems a bit challenging for many WOW players)

    So you're saying you HAD TO cheat just to win.  So the tactics were so difficult you couldn't figure it out on your own.   You know, playing Jeapardy is pretty damn easy when you already know the answers.   

    UO PvE was less about monster bashing and more about serving as a means to other ends. (Getting magic gear to sell on your vendor, gold to buy house decour from another players vendor, and yes.....showing off your crap to others in towns)

    So nothing is actually difficult to accomplish besides the trials and tribulations of dealing with other players?  Every MMO has that=)  

     

     

     



     

    LOL Cheat?  Nearly every raiding guild uses videos and strats that others make available.  People get so butthurt when they have to pay for repair bills and spend most of the night wipeing because little johny can't figure out what he needs to be doing. 

    WOW doesn't have the "trials and tribulations of dealing with other players" that UO had by a far shot.  Your interaction with a player you buy or sell stuff to is limited to an Auction House GUI.  No one knows the names of other players outside of their guild in their own faction much less notorious people in the opposing faction.

    9 times out of 10 when someone is trying to get my attention in WOW, its "Hey Mage", not "Hey Raj".  Absolutely Terrible....

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by Josher


    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  
    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers? 

    Ahh so they don't actually get smarter, they just get more levels in the next expansion. 



     

    But at that point, the rewards are useless.

    Until that point, the rewards are great -- and only attained by those who play skillfully.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • Tim_BraidTim_Braid Member UncommonPosts: 36
    Originally posted by Skarothlock

    Originally posted by Tim_Braid

    Originally posted by RajCaj

    Originally posted by nariusseldon


    Risk is the neccessary stick that breeds a smarter and resourcefull playerbase.
    No it is not necessary. Challenge will do. Challenge != risk
    Just take Sunwell in wow, very hard PvE encounter. All your lose is gold if you wipe. But people wipe & wipe and only the very best guild completed Sunwell (I think there is stat saying less than 2% of WOW player ever even see sunwell).
    Ditto for hard modes.



     

    I've raided before......and even after doing the same raid dungeon time and time again there were STILL people who AFKd when told not to, people who didn't run to the spot they were supposed to run to after being told over and over again, people who didn't cast a particular spell or people who didn't  pick up a certian add when they were told over and over and over again.

    I specificly remember sitting in a raid once and thought these guys must either be mentally challenged or they just don't give a crap...because this stuff wasn't hard.  It was difficult because the stats on everyone's gear might have not been at the right level.....but the strategy wasn't hard.  More times than not, most problems with peolpe not doing what they were told was because they were doing something stupid like Watching TV, Alt Tabed or off doing something else.

    Had those people had anything meaningful to risk, I have to believe those people would have made sure they were attentive in game and followed orders as instructed.

    Same goes for PvP.......if the idiot Horde that continued to run Solo into a group of 5 alliance at Blacksmith over and over and over actually had something to risk, he might have found some way to be a bit more productive......like not suicide kamakazi running into certian death.....or helping out other teamates for example.

    Challenge in WOW = Gearcheck.  If you don't have the gear for the encounter, there is no amount of skill and command over your character that will make a difference.  Thats a cheap way to make things "Challenging" IMO



     

    Well said RajCaj,

    Besides, who cares if if you spent 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 2-3 months to get that rare special item only to have someone steal it from you in a matter of days via ganking or pk'ing. Your time would have been wasted even if you had kept that special item.

    I'd rather spend a few hours a week with a group of people working to sneak into an opposing guild/factions guild hall hack into their bank to steal their legendary sword of a thousand truths(of course all done legally ingame), than spend 6 months for 8 hours a day grinding the same damn quest over and over again to get the legendary item "stone of a million cocks."

    I'd rather risk loosing my gear to get better gear from an opposing player than waste my time doing the same repetitve actions over and over again with no risk and therefore, no real reward.

    Timmy

     

    The risk is your time...

    While I am not one to grind... I hate that shit, and I do like to pvp, people like to risk their time to get a reward.  YOU might not see that as a valuable risk, but they do... and luckily for them (all 15-20 million p2p pve'rs in the world) you do not design their games.

    The thing is... capitalism is beautiful in this particular regard.  If there is a market (i.e. high risk pvp - total item loss, perma death etc...) then a company will build to exploit that market.  How many games cater to what you want?  Ever wonder why?

    Skaroth



     

    So spending 3-6 months for 40 hours a week or mind numbing grinding to get that legendary "sword of a thousand truths" is really worth your time(not your time persay, but the players time in general)?

    Will your wife love you any more as a husband?(or vice versa) Will your children love you any more as a father or mother if you spent that much time getting that legendary item?

    I'd rather spend 3-6 days working with a group of people(guild or my faction) for a few hours(1 or 2) a day to figure out how to break into the horde encampment(or guild house) to try and obtain/steal a legendary item that belongs to us. What is so wrong with working with strangers to achieve a common goal? Whatever happened to depending on your fellow man or woman, human or orc, for success or failure?

    Timmy

     

     

     

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,004
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by Marcus-

    Originally posted by Josher


    There's your hardcore base.  A small percentage of the whole.  Eventually, the difficulty gets nerfed down and more and more get to see the difficult content later on.  But at least for a time, completing something very few can is certainly an accomplishment in MMO terms.  Easy to play.  Hard to master.  Its why WOW is where it is.  
    What was HARD in UO anyway?  Dealing with exploiters and gankers?  Smacking a tree 10000 time?  UO can't touch any of WOW's high-end encounters.  In UO couldn't you just zerg everything to death by bringing superior numbers? 

    Ahh so they don't actually get smarter, they just get more levels in the next expansion. 



     

    But at that point, the rewards are useless.

    Until that point, the rewards are great -- and only attained by those who play skillfully.

     

     Could be just me, but i have a small problem paying for a game where only 2% are "skilled" enough to "develop" their character to the fullest extent of the game, especially when that  2% is of 11million.

     

     

    /shrug

    edit: I'd also assume that each character in the group going must be min/maxed to the high heavens, and if i didnt play one of the holy trinity, i may as well completly forget going?  I'm asking, i don't know....

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