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Video card over heating-possibe bug?

nubadaknubadak Member Posts: 150

Hi guy's and doll's,

Here is a thread I found full of great information regarding the STO video card over heating bug.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=78105

 

Hope this helps you,

Nub's

 

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Comments

  • CablespiderCablespider Member UncommonPosts: 272

    I noticed the game is heavily GPU dependent. Of course it's going to heat up the card when it's at 90%+ utilization. Lots of games don't get anywhere near that level. BTW..this is a good thing as the GPU is better suited to handle graphics vs. the CPU.

    I ran the game last night for a few hours and noticed my temps were a little higher than normal at 62c. That's well within spec. Then again I have a high performance PSU and my case is cooled well. I'm calling bullshit on the 'bug'. I'm of the opinion some peoples' rigs are just not suited for running the GPU maxed out like that. That kind of utilization will reveal all kinds of weaknesses in a system.

    This is just my opinion though.

    image

  • ZinzanZinzan Member UncommonPosts: 1,351

    My card was over heating while playing STO.

    It's not a bug, it's just STO seems to have some very high demands on my card, higher than any other game my rig has encountered. Bear in mind I can play the most demanding games at top settings with no problems.

    The problem is that it means a rig that should easily handle the game on the highest settings will probably not be able to do so. It makes a mockery of the system spec recommendations.

    I have a great fan cooling case system, the solution is to ramp up the cards fan manually, but thats not good for a card imo.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • SkuzSkuz Member UncommonPosts: 1,018

    If your card is overheating then your cooling is not good enough, simple as that.

    Card overheating is mechanical failure, bugs are software related, the only kind of bug that could cause overheating directly would be one that interfered with the card's firmware or fan operatin at a very low level, which would be totally unique.

    The explanation that was already given, that the game is demanding a lot of gpu activity just highlights how your system isn't set up to run the card at full utilisation, poor code optimisation may mean the game uses the gpu more than it should for the results portrayed on screen but that's not the same thing as a bug that causes overheating.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856
    any player having these issue didnt use their motherboard cooling feature
    there is suposed to be some wire going from the psu to the motherboard mine got 3
    those little sucker are fairly hard to find since most computer seller suggest to plug everything direct but when you dont buy the monitoring wire required to plug between motherboard and psu
    mother cant detect anything and use default stuff
    any unforseen overheating out of the ordinary cant be compensated by the fan since they re capped
    when i asked my computer vendor about the monitoring wire for mobo he said you dont need it lol.seeing this article i begin to think that maybe now i see why asus would have this feature avail
    i might have to buy it online since most computer seller i checked with in my city say it can be hooked up directly.
    yep i can but probably not as silent or safe for your computer part!
  • RaztorRaztor Member Posts: 670

     How can a game that looks worst that EQ2 (a 5 year old game) work the GPU so much. It must be seriously badly coded.

  • KatillaKatilla Member UncommonPosts: 829
    Originally posted by drbaltazar

    any player having these issue didnt use their motherboard cooling feature there is suposed to be some wire going from the psu to the motherboard mine got 3 those little sucker are fairly hard to find since most computer seller suggest to plug everything direct but when you dont buy the monitoring wire required to plug between motherboard and psu mother cant detect anything and use default stuff any unforseen overheating out of the ordinary cant be compensated by the fan since they re capped when i asked my computer vendor about the monitoring wire for mobo he said you dont need it lol.seeing this article i begin to think that maybe now i see why asus would have this feature avail i might have to buy it online since most computer seller i checked with in my city say it can be hooked up directly. yep i can but probably not as silent or safe for your computer part!

     

    ok i am going to stop you right there... i am sick and tired of people saying that this is a "cooling issue" and they essentially make those of us who this has happened to, look like a bunch of e-tards who do not know jack about computers...  if you actually read the STO forums, then you will see that it is actually bad coding.

    there have been lot, and i mean LOTS of people over at the STO forums who are having this heat issue, from graphics cards blowing, to PC's rebooting, to power supplies blowing due to power strains... the dev HIMSELF posted a "fix" in the forums that is seeming to work for people... now if they can just get off their asses and patch it into the game so you dont have to do it everytime you boot it up.. here is what the DEV posted as a fix.

    "You can try running this advance option , it should lessen the load on your GPU and may cause your card to run cooler.

    1. Launch the game to the login screen.

    2. Click on options.

    3. In the options window under "Advanced command line" type "-perframesleep 10 " (not including the quotes), then click OK.

    4. Launch the game.

    Sincerely,

    Cryptic Studios Technical Support"

     

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar Member UncommonPosts: 7,856
    ya theres even one about the max frame per seconf being set to 0.0000
    and that would set the framrate too high or too low for what ALL graphic card can handle
    tweak in their forum suggested putting it
    between 30 and 60 fps and supposed to fix this issue

    this game isnt released yet so they might take the time to correct before lauch or
    patch it after!
    one thing is sure when you got to fiddle with program as a gamer and average joe know squat about computer.the only stuff that can happen is bad stuff
    me every game that suggest tweaking this tweaking that or this instead of patching
    or asking us to redownload game in my book its a pretty lazy company
    i can understand when they ask us to wait for patch to be ready
    but when a mmo maker ask us to tweak stuff
    THEY SHOULD BE TWEAKING WITH PATCH!
    is when i just get out of that game before i break my system
    because of various issue they forgot to change or tweak.
    hell system setting is one of the first thing to check before the actual game before asking your self is it 3 d etc

    the first thing!
    will my game be 64 bit
    will we support dx11
    will we use ms donnybrook
    etc etc etc

    and all the correction i have seen are
    stuff that should have been some of the first stuff checked off their list

    and since they didnt,it tell a lot about the actual quality and polish of the game
    i played earth eternal and i never had issue like that!its a cloud mmo lol
    way more complex then a regular game like star trek to make lol.

    polish star trek and come back in 5 years when its really ready not hurried out because you want to lauch while all the big name are getting ready for a september lunch.
  • NyastNyast Member Posts: 84


    Originally posted by Raztor
     How can a game that looks worst that EQ2 (a 5 year old game) work the GPU so much. It must be seriously badly coded.

    In this particular case, it doesn't matter what the game looks like, because the overheating issue is mostly caused by the login screen/menu system: it runs at 1500 fps.

    It is optimized, and that's exactly because it runs fast without a pause that it causes overheating. Of course, adding a pause to avoid overheating issues would mean that performance would drop for everybody (including people who don't have any problem!).

  • blondehblondeh Member UncommonPosts: 540

    I had a nvidia 8600GT which was about 3 years old. I think it was on its way out. I started to noticed a few graphic glitches appearing in some games. Random black boxes etc.

    I installed STO  and the graphics lag and detail were really bad. Then boom....... white screen and PC wouldnt start. Opened up my case. The smell of burnt hardware was rife. The heat radiating from my card was worrying. Seems STO sent my card over the edge and burnt it out.

    Ah well I needed a new card and STO gave me a reason to go get one. Bought a Zotac 9800GT and it runs the game nicely. A little lag in game but I'm hoping when I upgrade my ram from 2GB (533mhz) to 4GB (800Mhz) the game will run smoother.

    image

  • ZinzanZinzan Member UncommonPosts: 1,351
    Originally posted by Nyast


     

    Originally posted by Raztor

     How can a game that looks worst that EQ2 (a 5 year old game) work the GPU so much. It must be seriously badly coded.

     

    In this particular case, it doesn't matter what the game looks like, because the overheating issue is mostly caused by the login screen/menu system: it runs at 1500 fps.

    It is optimized, and that's exactly because it runs fast without a pause that it causes overheating. Of course, adding a pause to avoid overheating issues would mean that performance would drop for everybody (including people who don't have any problem!).

    What I find the most annoying is that gamers are always complaining. Is the framerate low ? You'll complain that it's badly coded, poorly optimized. Is the framerate too high ? Then some users who have poor cooling will get overheating problems, and you'll complain about it too. Geez..

     



     

    Sorry, but this does not apply in my case and probably not for some others too. It's not the login screen that causes my problem, it's ground combat specifically.

    I have a good cooling system, it's better than my old water-cooled system thanks to the massive space and cooling options for my ANTEC 1200, more than adequate to keep my GPU cool enough to play any other game on the market at max settings without breaking a sweat. I can even overclock my card with no issues, although im not a big fan of overclocking graphics cards and so don't bother. It's not my PSU capacity, i have adequate capacity to install and run a second card in SLI if i wanted too. Also it's not my PSU as i have several i have swapped out to test this theory.

    It might be my drivers, but i use the most recent ones for my card and my bios is up to date and both work fine for any other application. Tried a few older driver settings, but the game constantly tells me i need to update them when i do this and defaults to minimum settings, so i struggle to test this properly. However, im still trying down this route.

    STO pushes the GPU so hard i have to manually set the GPU fan to 100% and reduce the settings to keep it from overheating. Even then i can only run on very minimal settings. This is not really the issue, the issue is that i should be able to run this game on max settings without any problem.

    While im still not convinced it's necessarily STO itself that causes this, there does seem to be some operation STO performs or wants to perform that causes my specific problem and it might be specific to my system or my card, i don't know for certain yet.

    However, please don't think that because some of us have this issue that it's automatically a cooling problem and we are idiots who think a heatsink is just a funny shaped paperweight you get free with the CPU. I build PC's, i have for many years, I have also built some funky cooling systems as well for friends and gamers.

    My problem might be different from others, i don't know, im not them. What i can tell you is i have a specific problem that seems to be, in some manner, related too, directly or indirectly, or caused by STO.

    Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  • VultureSkullVultureSkull Member UncommonPosts: 1,774
    Originally posted by Zinzan

    Originally posted by Nyast


     

    Originally posted by Raztor

     How can a game that looks worst that EQ2 (a 5 year old game) work the GPU so much. It must be seriously badly coded.

     

    In this particular case, it doesn't matter what the game looks like, because the overheating issue is mostly caused by the login screen/menu system: it runs at 1500 fps.

    It is optimized, and that's exactly because it runs fast without a pause that it causes overheating. Of course, adding a pause to avoid overheating issues would mean that performance would drop for everybody (including people who don't have any problem!).

    What I find the most annoying is that gamers are always complaining. Is the framerate low ? You'll complain that it's badly coded, poorly optimized. Is the framerate too high ? Then some users who have poor cooling will get overheating problems, and you'll complain about it too. Geez..

     



     

    Sorry, but this does not apply in my case and probably not for some others too. It's not the login screen that causes my problem, it's ground combat specifically.

    I have a good cooling system, it's better than my old water-cooled system thanks to the massive space and cooling options for my ANTEC 1200, more than adequate to keep my GPU cool enough to play any other game on the market at max settings without breaking a sweat. I can even overclock my card with no issues, although im not a big fan of overclocking graphics cards and so don't bother. It's not my PSU capacity, i have adequate capacity to install and run a second card in SLI if i wanted too. Also it's not my PSU as i have several i have swapped out to test this theory.

    It might be my drivers, but i use the most recent ones for my card and my bios is up to date and both work fine for any other application. Tried a few older driver settings, but the game constantly tells me i need to update them when i do this and defaults to minimum settings, so i struggle to test this properly. However, im still trying down this route.

    STO pushes the GPU so hard i have to manually set the GPU fan to 100% and reduce the settings to keep it from overheating. Even then i can only run on very minimal settings. This is not really the issue, the issue is that i should be able to run this game on max settings without any problem.

    While im still not convinced it's necessarily STO itself that causes this, there does seem to be some operation STO performs or wants to perform that causes my specific problem and it might be specific to my system or my card, i don't know for certain yet.

    However, please don't think that because some of us have this issue that it's automatically a cooling problem and we are idiots who think a heatsink is just a funny shaped paperweight you get free with the CPU. I build PC's, i have for many years, I have also built some funky cooling systems as well for friends and gamers.

    My problem might be different from others, i don't know, im not them. What i can tell you is i have a specific problem that seems to be, in some manner, related too, directly or indirectly, or caused by STO.

    All comunication to and from the graphics card is done using DirectX. Programers of games etc can only make use of these functions to program their games.

    So if there is an issue with overheating caused by any game, then the 'bug' is with directx. If a particular function or functions can cause a card to overheat then directX itself should put a restriction on the number of times this function(s) can be called, and should not be the responsibility of the calling program. This is my opinion.

     

     

  • NyastNyast Member Posts: 84


    Originally posted by VultureSkull

    Originally posted by Zinzan

    Originally posted by Nyast

     



    Originally posted by Raztor
     How can a game that looks worst that EQ2 (a 5 year old game) work the GPU so much. It must be seriously badly coded.

     
    In this particular case, it doesn't matter what the game looks like, because the overheating issue is mostly caused by the login screen/menu system: it runs at 1500 fps.
    It is optimized, and that's exactly because it runs fast without a pause that it causes overheating. Of course, adding a pause to avoid overheating issues would mean that performance would drop for everybody (including people who don't have any problem!).
    What I find the most annoying is that gamers are always complaining. Is the framerate low ? You'll complain that it's badly coded, poorly optimized. Is the framerate too high ? Then some users who have poor cooling will get overheating problems, and you'll complain about it too. Geez..
     

     
    Sorry, but this does not apply in my case and probably not for some others too. It's not the login screen that causes my problem, it's ground combat specifically.
    I have a good cooling system, it's better than my old water-cooled system thanks to the massive space and cooling options for my ANTEC 1200, more than adequate to keep my GPU cool enough to play any other game on the market at max settings without breaking a sweat. I can even overclock my card with no issues, although im not a big fan of overclocking graphics cards and so don't bother. It's not my PSU capacity, i have adequate capacity to install and run a second card in SLI if i wanted too. Also it's not my PSU as i have several i have swapped out to test this theory.
    It might be my drivers, but i use the most recent ones for my card and my bios is up to date and both work fine for any other application. Tried a few older driver settings, but the game constantly tells me i need to update them when i do this and defaults to minimum settings, so i struggle to test this properly. However, im still trying down this route.
    STO pushes the GPU so hard i have to manually set the GPU fan to 100% and reduce the settings to keep it from overheating. Even then i can only run on very minimal settings. This is not really the issue, the issue is that i should be able to run this game on max settings without any problem.
    While im still not convinced it's necessarily STO itself that causes this, there does seem to be some operation STO performs or wants to perform that causes my specific problem and it might be specific to my system or my card, i don't know for certain yet.
    However, please don't think that because some of us have this issue that it's automatically a cooling problem and we are idiots who think a heatsink is just a funny shaped paperweight you get free with the CPU. I build PC's, i have for many years, I have also built some funky cooling systems as well for friends and gamers.
    My problem might be different from others, i don't know, im not them. What i can tell you is i have a specific problem that seems to be, in some manner, related too, directly or indirectly, or caused by STO.


    All comunication to and from the graphics card is done using DirectX. Programers of games etc can only make use of these functions to program their games.
    So if there is an issue with overheating caused by any game, then the 'bug' is with directx. If a particular function or functions can cause a card to overheat then directX itself should put a restriction on the number of times this function(s) can be called, and should not be the responsibility of the calling program. This is my opinion.
     

    Why would you limit 100% of the user's functionality when it's a large minority (0.001%, for example) that has got an issue ? They are very vocal on STO's forum, but that's expected; meanwhile the masses are playing the game, so we don't know the exact numbers.

    I'm not denying that there is a problem. It's not directly STO's fault, is all I'm saying. A game's code isn't a well defined block that calls few well-defined functions in DirectX. Just rendering to a single, simple texture may require dozens of function calls. A game's renderer is a collection of thousands and thousands of function calls, features, that all interact with each other.

    So it's not hard to understand that each piece of software/game will stress the hardware in a very different way.

    I mentionned STO's menu because I experienced it myself; I launched fraps and saw that it ran at 1500 fps. This means that it probably has little CPU activity, and since it's a menu, little geometry. But due to the menu's visual effects, probably a lot of fillrate/bandwidth activity, for example caused by blending operations.

    It may not look like Crysis, but it doesn't matter. If it uses half of Crysis resources per frame but runs twice as fast, then it will have the same load than Crysis, although I'm over-simplifying my explanations a bit.

  • VultureSkullVultureSkull Member UncommonPosts: 1,774

    Just seen the below quote on another forum, whether it is true or not i do not know. And how such a command exists i dont know.

     

     

    "If you havent manually set your FPS with /maxfps command; then you are redlining your card without even knowing it. Apparently STO has a huge bug where it sets your GPU to try and attempt an infinite framerate which bottoms it out. Even if you arent running hot you are still doing damage since its redlined. To fix this serious problem log into the game and type /maxfps if it comes up 0.000000 then you have been running redline for days most likely. Just type /maxfps(space)# between 30-60 for fps. Then type just /maxfps to make sure it took.

    The /showfps command may still show zero but thats bugged so dont pay attention to it. After you set your maxfps you should notice markably increased performance, less heat if you were running crazy hot like me, and the ability to set more stuff to max if you were unable to before.

    LAST TIP VERY IMPORTANT. Dont forget that every time you log in you must set your fps again or it will go back to 0.00000."

     

     

    Edit: Some More info

    Quoting "NYAST"

    In this very thread, some people have reported that LOTRO and Final Fantasy suffered from similar problems at launch. I know many games ( not necessarily MMOs ) that have suffered from similar problems. Then somebody even referred to the case of Fur Mark, which is an overclocking software, that had been limited by the drivers to avoid burning cards.

    You do not seem to understand very well the concept of software dependencies. There's no command in any rendering API, like OpenGL or DirectX, to change hardware settings like clock frequencies. Yes, "software" can change those settings. But those are overclocking softwares or drivers, not standard software. Games would never do that. Never, ever, ever, ever ever..

    What games do is send commands to the driver, which then forwards them to the video card. It is the role of the driver to interpret those commands and validate them. It is not the responsability of the game to limit the framerate, because the game knows next to nothing about the hardware specs - it runs on an abstracted layer - so how could it decide on which machines it should be limited or not ? It is the driver's responsability to monitor the GPU temperature and dynamically update its clock frequencies if needed. In fact, ATI's overdrive is a good example of a driver doing that.

    You'll be arguing that the game should set a limit of 60 Hz and be done with it. But again, you're missing the point that the game shouldn't be the one to decide to limit the framerate. There are monitors that have refresh rates above 60 Hz; hell there are stereo-TVs that have a 120 Hz refresh rate now ! Whatever value the game would choose would limit some users in some ways. What the game can do is to limit the framerate to the refresh rate of the monitor ( without knowing what it is exactly ), and that's called VSync. If the user disables it, it's his responsability, not the driver neither the game's.

    Is this a problem with STO ? Sure, but indirectly and not exclusively. Have the devs given a command to fix it for those who have the issue ? Yes. Is this a bug in their code ? No, it's a workaround. Is this STO's/the devs responsability ? No. Can they implement the workaround/fix as a default for everybody ? Yes, they can. Should they implement the workaround/fix as a default for everybody ? That's debatable.

  • Justarius1Justarius1 Member Posts: 381
    Originally posted by VultureSkull


    Just seen the below quote on another forum, whether it is true or not i do not know. And how such a command exists i dont know.
     
     
    "If you havent manually set your FPS with /maxfps command; then you are redlining your card without even knowing it. Apparently STO has a huge bug where it sets your GPU to try and attempt an infinite framerate which bottoms it out. Even if you arent running hot you are still doing damage since its redlined. To fix this serious problem log into the game and type /maxfps if it comes up 0.000000 then you have been running redline for days most likely. Just type /maxfps(space)# between 30-60 for fps. Then type just /maxfps to make sure it took.
    The /showfps command may still show zero but thats bugged so dont pay attention to it. After you set your maxfps you should notice markably increased performance, less heat if you were running crazy hot like me, and the ability to set more stuff to max if you were unable to before.
    LAST TIP VERY IMPORTANT. Dont forget that every time you log in you must set your fps again or it will go back to 0.00000."

     
     
    Edit: Some More info
    Quoting "NYAST"
    In this very thread, some people have reported that LOTRO and Final Fantasy suffered from similar problems at launch. I know many games ( not necessarily MMOs ) that have suffered from similar problems. Then somebody even referred to the case of Fur Mark, which is an overclocking software, that had been limited by the drivers to avoid burning cards.
    You do not seem to understand very well the concept of software dependencies. There's no command in any rendering API, like OpenGL or DirectX, to change hardware settings like clock frequencies. Yes, "software" can change those settings. But those are overclocking softwares or drivers, not standard software. Games would never do that. Never, ever, ever, ever ever..
    What games do is send commands to the driver, which then forwards them to the video card. It is the role of the driver to interpret those commands and validate them. It is not the responsability of the game to limit the framerate, because the game knows next to nothing about the hardware specs - it runs on an abstracted layer - so how could it decide on which machines it should be limited or not ? It is the driver's responsability to monitor the GPU temperature and dynamically update its clock frequencies if needed. In fact, ATI's overdrive is a good example of a driver doing that.
    You'll be arguing that the game should set a limit of 60 Hz and be done with it. But again, you're missing the point that the game shouldn't be the one to decide to limit the framerate. There are monitors that have refresh rates above 60 Hz; hell there are stereo-TVs that have a 120 Hz refresh rate now ! Whatever value the game would choose would limit some users in some ways. What the game can do is to limit the framerate to the refresh rate of the monitor ( without knowing what it is exactly ), and that's called VSync. If the user disables it, it's his responsability, not the driver neither the game's.
    Is this a problem with STO ? Sure, but indirectly and not exclusively. Have the devs given a command to fix it for those who have the issue ? Yes. Is this a bug in their code ? No, it's a workaround. Is this STO's/the devs responsability ? No. Can they implement the workaround/fix as a default for everybody ? Yes, they can. Should they implement the workaround/fix as a default for everybody ? That's debatable.

     

    While not technically a "bug" as the pure definition of the word goes, if there is a "feature" of the game (I used to work in QA for a large programming team...  you should try having this argument with actual programmers who don't understand the needs of end users - anyway -) - if there is a problem causing large amounts of non-tech savvy users to be unable to enjoy the game, I would say, yes, they should implement this fix/workaround for everybody.

    The reasoning is that there are probably a lot more gamers that would benefit from having the workaround "imposed" on them than there are gamers who would benefit from NOT having this done.  The average MMO player isn't going to prowl through forums learning that the /maxfps command will help them set their graphics card down to a setting the game can handle.  The average MMO player is expecting the game to work, out of the box, with the majority of hardware and software listed under the "minimum" and "recommended" settings.  ESPECIALLY if all the OTHER games somebody plays works, as was an issue I had when I started playing Fallen Earth.  It took me days to get the game to run well on my system, and while I am technically savvy and I have the time and energy to spend DAYS getting my PC to work right with weirdly coded games, many, many - I would say the majority - of gamers out there will approach Fallen Earth like many of them did - they will try to play, complain that they can't get the game to work, and then move on.

    Compare my experiences with video driver problems and bugs and getting my card to stop overheating with, say, Aion.  Now, I love Fallen Earth and I hate Aion but in terms of consumer usability and access, Aion was a dream and Fallen Earth sucked.  (Again, keep in mind, this is technical only.  I still play FE and I couldn't stand Aion for more than a month. ;) ) - but ease of use?  Aion wins hands down.  No tweaking drivers.  Nothing to do.  The game just worked, right away, on my fairly normal system, like 99% of the games I play work right away.

    Fallen Earth took hours of reading forums, sites like www.guru3d.com, trying different technical configurations, etc.

    Call people idiots all you want for "not knowing their hardware" but the long and short of it is that most people aren't techs, nor should they have to be a tech, simply to log on to and play a game.  The hard, cold fact is this - if the average consumer can't enjoy your game right "out of the box" without a plethora of technical tweaks, that consumer will simply move on to another game with better code that he/she can enjoy without getting a 4 year degree in some IT field.

    If 95% of games manage to play on 98% of systems and then a game like Fallen Earth or STO comes along and they only play well on, say, 90% of the systems at the first install, losing those 8% of people who cannot play due to technical issues is a huge financial incentive for gaming companies to "get it right" the first time.  I bet a lot of people who cancelled Fallen Earth due to technical problems never once went back because of the frustration involved.

    (Edited to note - I have yet to experience a single technical problem related to STO where my graphics card(s) are concerned; no overheating, I run on a 32 bit Vista system and a Radeon 4850 card.  I'm testing the game out with my friend's account.  Just because I am not having problems, however, doesn't mean that I think anyone else who is having problems is stupid - there is enough feedback on the STO forums that I can indeed tell that, yes, this is a big problem and that obviously something more than offering esoteric technical fixes and in game slash commands to set your fps needs to be done.)

    image

  • KatillaKatilla Member UncommonPosts: 829

    you sir, are my new best friend :)

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