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JGE vs BP?

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  • SalvatorisSalvatoris Member Posts: 1,360
    Originally posted by freejackmack

    Originally posted by Salvatoris

    Originally posted by freejackmack

    Originally posted by Salvatoris


    You don't care about graphics, but i do... a lot of people do.  I won't play a game with bad gameplay OR bad graphics.  I don't believe you have to sacrifice one for the other. The assertion that games can only have one or the other is absurd.  Scalable graphics are fine, but they should scale from bad to good, not just from bad to mediocre. 
     

    You still don't get it! Go play BP then whatever but don't expect it to be as fun as JGE just because it has good graphics. Yes you can have both but if you sacrifice graphics for game play features like massive battles to get a cooler experience over all, it just makes sense. Graphics are great sure but chasing the best graphics will leave the game at a disadvantage over all.

    Yeah graphics are great but they don't matter enough to exclude people with lower end systems and limit the possibilities of the scope of features you can implement. Next gen graphics was never what JGE was about so it's probably not for you if that is all that matters to you. And JGE has cool looking graphics, it's not like they suck. You probably didn't even watch those videos I linked did ya.

    JGE has a great dev team that gets this and they have the right approach to makeing a fun game. It is hard to get people like that to make a game, this is also another reason I think JGE is gonna be the best.



     

    I have watched every video I can find, and I'm not exactly blown away by graphics or gameplay.  The bosses look pretty lame compared to the big capital ship bosses in BP, and every gameplay video I have seen looks like the gameplay boils down to keeping the red square centered on your screen while holding the left mouse button down.  Don't get me wrong, I'll certainly be playing the game at launch... But I think it's silly to say that BP is no competition.  There ARE areas where it looks to be better than JGE.  You could be right that JGE will have better gameplay.  But it would just be a good guess, since there isn't much info on BP yet. 

    Poor graphics are never intentional... developers do the best they can and then try their best to justify their shortcomings as part of the plan.  The fact is, JGE looks the way it does because the old engine you love so much isn't capable of more.  If they could make it looks better, you can be assured that they would. They aren't sacrificing graphics for gameplay.  they are sacrificing graphics for financial reasons.

    You keep saying I don't get it, but I feel the same way about you.  So as long as we are repeating ourselves... There is no reason for a game with scalable graphics and an easily accessible low end to not also have great graphics on the high end of the scale.  That way they don't alienate players with equipment on either end of the spectrum. 

    You keep saying they sacrifice graphics to deliver a better gameplay experience, but the two aren't mutually exclusive.  I am looking for a game with both.  So far, we know that JGE misses one of those marks, but we have zero evidence that BP does.  There isn't nearly enough info out on BP for anyone to assume that gameplay is weak, or at all limited by the graphics capabilities of the game.  In fact, I bet you can turn the settings way down and end up with a game that looks a lot more like JGE. ;)

     

     

    How do you figure the graphics engine has any thing to do with the flight engine. They picked there graphics engine for a reason, so they could fit as many ships as they can on the screen and on low end comps and even laptops with integrated graphics chips. These reasons out weight the reasons for making the game with next gen graphics and JGE is not even close to an ugly game, idk what your problem is. JGE is not the first game ND has ever made. How many mmo's have you made?

    I think JGE has more going for it than BP and more focus on quality. The time spent on focus testing and the pledge to deliver a debugged beta and not allowing petty things like next gen graphics get in the way of game play. What they have right now in alpha is a great platform for content, so whatever they put in the game is gonna be that much more fun, whether it's cap ships or POS. I think what you will find is that by the time BP gets around to releasing their game JGE will have become a really great mmo experience and no one will want to leave for BP because it will be lacking compared to JGE. 

    Pfft, graphics.. you can not have your next gen cake and eat it too, if you could everyone would make games with next gen graphics especially Blizzard which knows their stuff pretty well.

    What BP is gonna end up being is Global Agenda in space.



     

    You're right, this isn't the first game they have ever made.  They have made two.  The first is Jumpgate, which is getting a revamp and a word added to the name to be JGE.  They also made the smashing success known as Auto Assault, which didn't last a year. 

    You are also correct that graphics have nothing at all to do with gameplay... so by that reasoning, gameplay is no excuse for poor graphics.  Just because the two areas of the game are totally separate and unrelated, doesn't mean they aren't both important.  There is absolutely no reason why a game can't have good gameplay and good graphics.

    Everything else you have to say is nonsense.  It's silly to say that there isn't a focus on quality in BP... of course there is.  I'm sure they also intend to deliver a bug-free and playable experience.  Until the games launch, we won't know if either or both companies manage to deliver.  There simply isn't enough info on BP to say that it is lacking compared to JGE.  We only know a little bit about the game, and frankly what we do know about it makes JGE look pretty dated and lame.  It's possible that the game could suck, but there is absolutely no evidence toward that assumption at this point in time.

    I am not looking for next-gen graphics... I am looking for current-gen graphics, which JGE does not deliver, and BP clearly does.  When you watch the gameplay videos for both games, JGE DOES look pretty crappy compared to BP.  Have you even seen the videos?

    http://blackprophecy-game.com/index.php?id=5

     

  • freejackmackfreejackmack Member Posts: 378
    Originally posted by Salvatoris

    Originally posted by freejackmack

    Originally posted by Salvatoris

    Originally posted by freejackmack

    Originally posted by Salvatoris


    You don't care about graphics, but i do... a lot of people do.  I won't play a game with bad gameplay OR bad graphics.  I don't believe you have to sacrifice one for the other. The assertion that games can only have one or the other is absurd.  Scalable graphics are fine, but they should scale from bad to good, not just from bad to mediocre. 
     

    You still don't get it! Go play BP then whatever but don't expect it to be as fun as JGE just because it has good graphics. Yes you can have both but if you sacrifice graphics for game play features like massive battles to get a cooler experience over all, it just makes sense. Graphics are great sure but chasing the best graphics will leave the game at a disadvantage over all.

    Yeah graphics are great but they don't matter enough to exclude people with lower end systems and limit the possibilities of the scope of features you can implement. Next gen graphics was never what JGE was about so it's probably not for you if that is all that matters to you. And JGE has cool looking graphics, it's not like they suck. You probably didn't even watch those videos I linked did ya.

    JGE has a great dev team that gets this and they have the right approach to makeing a fun game. It is hard to get people like that to make a game, this is also another reason I think JGE is gonna be the best.



     

    I have watched every video I can find, and I'm not exactly blown away by graphics or gameplay.  The bosses look pretty lame compared to the big capital ship bosses in BP, and every gameplay video I have seen looks like the gameplay boils down to keeping the red square centered on your screen while holding the left mouse button down.  Don't get me wrong, I'll certainly be playing the game at launch... But I think it's silly to say that BP is no competition.  There ARE areas where it looks to be better than JGE.  You could be right that JGE will have better gameplay.  But it would just be a good guess, since there isn't much info on BP yet. 

    Poor graphics are never intentional... developers do the best they can and then try their best to justify their shortcomings as part of the plan.  The fact is, JGE looks the way it does because the old engine you love so much isn't capable of more.  If they could make it looks better, you can be assured that they would. They aren't sacrificing graphics for gameplay.  they are sacrificing graphics for financial reasons.

    You keep saying I don't get it, but I feel the same way about you.  So as long as we are repeating ourselves... There is no reason for a game with scalable graphics and an easily accessible low end to not also have great graphics on the high end of the scale.  That way they don't alienate players with equipment on either end of the spectrum. 

    You keep saying they sacrifice graphics to deliver a better gameplay experience, but the two aren't mutually exclusive.  I am looking for a game with both.  So far, we know that JGE misses one of those marks, but we have zero evidence that BP does.  There isn't nearly enough info out on BP for anyone to assume that gameplay is weak, or at all limited by the graphics capabilities of the game.  In fact, I bet you can turn the settings way down and end up with a game that looks a lot more like JGE. ;)

     

     

    How do you figure the graphics engine has any thing to do with the flight engine. They picked there graphics engine for a reason, so they could fit as many ships as they can on the screen and on low end comps and even laptops with integrated graphics chips. These reasons out weight the reasons for making the game with next gen graphics and JGE is not even close to an ugly game, idk what your problem is. JGE is not the first game ND has ever made. How many mmo's have you made?

    I think JGE has more going for it than BP and more focus on quality. The time spent on focus testing and the pledge to deliver a debugged beta and not allowing petty things like next gen graphics get in the way of game play. What they have right now in alpha is a great platform for content, so whatever they put in the game is gonna be that much more fun, whether it's cap ships or POS. I think what you will find is that by the time BP gets around to releasing their game JGE will have become a really great mmo experience and no one will want to leave for BP because it will be lacking compared to JGE. 

    Pfft, graphics.. you can not have your next gen cake and eat it too, if you could everyone would make games with next gen graphics especially Blizzard which knows their stuff pretty well.

    What BP is gonna end up being is Global Agenda in space.



     

    You're right, this isn't the first game they have ever made.  They have made two.  The first is Jumpgate, which is getting a revamp and a word added to the name to be JGE.  They also made the smashing success known as Auto Assault, which didn't last a year. 

    You are also correct that graphics have nothing at all to do with gameplay... so by that reasoning, gameplay is no excuse for poor graphics.  Just because the two areas of the game are totally separate and unrelated, doesn't mean they aren't both important.  There is absolutely no reason why a game can't have good gameplay and good graphics.

    Everything else you have to say is nonsense.  It's silly to say that there isn't a focus on quality in BP... of course there is.  I'm sure they also intend to deliver a bug-free and playable experience.  Until the games launch, we won't know if either or both companies manage to deliver.  There simply isn't enough info on BP to say that it is lacking compared to JGE.  We only know a little bit about the game, and frankly what we do know about it makes JGE look pretty dated and lame.  It's possible that the game could suck, but there is absolutely no evidence toward that assumption at this point in time.

    I am not looking for next-gen graphics... I am looking for current-gen graphics, which JGE does not deliver, and BP clearly does.  When you watch the gameplay videos for both games, JGE DOES look pretty crappy compared to BP.  Have you even seen the videos?

    http://blackprophecy-game.com/index.php?id=5

     

    I'll be more clear. Graphics can effect the number of ships that the game will be able to generate on the screen at once, this in turn affects the game play directly and indirectly which is why Global Agenda has decided to go with instanced matches for their game instead of open world and big battles rather than lower the graphics engine demand for resources. And JGE has taken the more exciting approach and went with less demanding graphics and more big team battles. So in the spirit of mmo's where big battles are the goal in an online and massive multi-player setting JGE wins on this point. And like I said before the graphics are not ugly like you say. Did you even watch the videos I linked? 

    The old engine you think ND is using is a modified Dancer Engine for the flight engine, that does not mean that JGE is using the graphics engine from JGC also. I mean that is so ridiculous to even assume. However they have made the Graphics engine in a way that allows more system resources to be used to increase the excitement of the game experience.

    And the point I was making about ND not being new to mmo's was not that they have not failed it was that they know how and you really do not.

    You are arguing over semantics, next gen or not JGE's graphics are good enough and BP's graphics will cripple it's ability to offer as much as JGE is offering.

    And yes I have watched BP's videos and the graphics are nothing special and they are certainly not good enough to justify a hit to "game-play" which you believe there will not be but we shall see.

    You think BP can have it's cake and eat it too? Well we shall see. It is not likely and that is really my point.

  • SalvatorisSalvatoris Member Posts: 1,360

    I read that JGE uses an updated version of the same graphics engine as the original Jumpgate.  If that is inaccurate, please point out any info stating such. I have certainly been misled by information posted on a forum in the past. ;)

    And yes, I firmly believe a game can have up to date graphics and still deliver good gameplay.  I don't see what is so ridiculous about that.  You seem to be pretty focused on the 500 man battle scenario, but that isn't at all a concern of mine.  I don't believe 500 people in the same fight is a prerequisite to fun.  I think the assertion is laughable, since I have enjoyed so many games throughout my life, and none of them had 500 player battles.

    Whether or not the graphics in JGE are "good enough" is certainly a matter of opinion.  I think it looks pretty dated, especially up against Black prophecy. 

     edit:    I looked in to it a bit, and I see several references to a new graphics engine.  I even found an article here about how they "chose" to use lower tech graphics like WoW... you know for reasons of "accessibility".  WoW looks as good as any game developed nearly a decade ago should.  If it came out today, you can bet it would look considerably better. 

  • freejackmackfreejackmack Member Posts: 378
    Originally posted by Salvatoris


    I read that JGE uses an updated version of the same graphics engine as the original Jumpgate.  If that is inaccurate, please point out any info stating such. I have certainly been misled by information posted on a forum in the past. ;)
    And yes, I firmly believe a game can have up to date graphics and still deliver good gameplay.  I don't see what is so ridiculous about that.  You seem to be pretty focused on the 500 man battle scenario, but that isn't at all a concern of mine.  I don't believe 500 people in the same fight is a prerequisite to fun.  I think the assertion is laughable, since I have enjoyed so many games throughout my life, and none of them had 500 player battles.
    Whether or not the graphics in JGE are "good enough" is certainly a matter of opinion.  I think it looks pretty dated, especially up against Black prophecy. 
     edit:    I looked in to it a bit, and I see several references to a new graphics engine.  I even found an article here about how they "chose" to use lower tech graphics like WoW... you know for reasons of "accessibility".  WoW looks as good as any game developed nearly a decade ago should.  If it came out today, you can bet it would look considerably better. 

    It's nice to see your doing some research and we seem to be coming to a common ground so to speak.

    One thing I would like to add is that accessibility is one of the reasons for the graphics engine being made to be light on the resources but they also sighted that it allows for better performance in game play while facilitating big battles.

    Yes you're right up to date graphics don't necessarily mean the game play will be crap but it is more restricting which is what I have been saying. It is therefor less likely that it will be as fun as JGE's.

    I do however agree that BP could some how be as fun as JGE and this thread is premature, so the discussion will be more interesting when they have both launched.

    The big battles are a huge draw as is the Dancer Engine, for me; but I do agree that BP could be fun without the big scale battles that can take place in JGE. However I do believe big battles do add more appeal to JGE and usually mmo's strive for as many users interacting at one time as they can reasonably mange because it is generally viewed as more fun.  

    I guess we shall just have to see and I do like BP's costom ship system who knows the game might be well done.

  • SalvatorisSalvatoris Member Posts: 1,360

    Yep.. we'll just have to wait and see.  There is a lot more info on JGE than BP, so right now we can only guess at how it will be.  Maybe the two games will be so dissimilar that they don't even appeal to the same crowd.  Like I said, I'm not hating on JGE.  I will certainly be playing it on launch day.  I have been waiting for a game like this for a long time.... there just happen to be two in development at the same time.

    I still believe that having an easily accessible low end on the graphics slider doesn't rule out having amazing graphics on the other end.  I freely admit to being a graphics whore, and being an old school Mechwarrior, the cockpit views in BP really appeal to me.  The fact is, it could be absolute garbage when it launches.  I haven't seen any evidence to that fact, but then  again... Eve looks like a game I would love, but upon playing I actually hate it.  So I understand that appearances can be deceiving. 

     

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662

    I recently began playing X3:Reunion again and realised just how much that screams to be put into an MMO.  Then I began thinking about BP and JGE.  I'm REALLY hoping for the sake of MMO's in general that BOTH of these games actually take off and capture decent sized crowds.  Because together they both flesh out the MMO portfolio in an area thats different to a lot of MMO's we enjoy today.  People are yearning for something different, yet something intuitive and user friendly.  Both of these two games have the potential to provide additional variety in the MMO market.

    Due to the higher amount of marketing and hype, I have greater confidence in JGE than BP.  However, if I was to truely believe the video and the information on both games I'd probably say that BP has the potential to be better.  For instance, if I recall BP may have multiperson capital ships at launch, something that Netdevil are not doing until after launch.  Also if I recall correctly, BP has a modular ship design which creates a greater sense of character customisation, whereas JGE sticks with predesigned ship types

    But like others said, we don't know enough about BP to formulate an accurate comparison.  I hope BOTH succeed in bringing the complexity of an "X3" type game into an MMO gameworld.  Choice is good.

  • TikigodTikigod Member Posts: 42

    Regarding Black Prophecy, I will admit I have not been following the game closely and much of what I have heard has come from fans of the game rather then directly from Reakktor.

     

    But the general focus of Black Prophecy from what I have heard is that it is focusing on the more instanced arena combat gameplay, where you will get 300 people in a instance all fighting to achieve a pre-established objective based on what that instance was created for. (Stated by the developers as the focus for PvP in a interview in 2007)

    On top of this, recently there have been afew fans mentioning talk of Black Prophecy having 'abilities' that one can unlock which will enable them to perform special moves in combat that they otherwise would not be able to perform.

     

    When comparing those two points to JGE which is very much focused on open world non-instanced nation vs nation vs nation PvP in unregulated space.

    Capturing sectors for ones nations through large scale cooperative efforts of combatists and haulers shipping components to build the sector claiming outposts which was hinted at by Scorch (President of Netdevil) some time ago, with the instanced battlespace content really being more of a alternative for people with less time to invest, rather then being a replacement for open world PvP.

    And being firmly focused on a players natural piloting ability without character 'abilities',

     

    I think BP and JGE will each appeal to a entirely differant type of person and be enjoyable for completely differant reasons.

    You don't think there's anything amiss? I'm sat here wearing a red and white gingham dress, and army boots, you think that's un-amiss?

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662

    Tikigod, I'm assuming that you are the same Tiki as in the JGE forums.  If so, good to see you  :)

    I must admit that JGE is peaking my interest more at the moment, however the one thing thats nagging me is the thought that any ship class won't look any different with different equipment load outs.  Thus everyone flying a "Corvette" for instance (made up name) will look exactly the same regardless of the equipment on the ship.  The "modular" design being used in BP therefore may appeal to those players who want their ships to LOOK unique (to some degree) rather than everyone looking the same just with different "abilities" (equipment).

    I do hope that this concern doesn't have a foundation.

  • metalhead980metalhead980 Member Posts: 2,658

    Other than the combat that I actually like.

    Both of these games seem so limited. Do they have full free roaming pvp? Actual economies? Territorial pvp? industrial type gameplay (mining, Trader, manufacturing)? How does exploration work? what type of risk is involved in pvp?

    Is combat enough? Not if the games have meaningless pvp in staged areas and no economy.

    This game needs way more than twitch combat to pull me from Eve, Hell I can play a few single player games that have twitch combat already.

     

     

     

    PLaying: EvE, Ryzom

    Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    Other than the combat that I actually like.
    Both of these games seem so limited. Do they have full free roaming pvp? Actual economies? Territorial pvp? industrial type gameplay (mining, Trader, manufacturing)? How does exploration work? what type of risk is involved in pvp?
    Is combat enough? Not if the games have meaningless pvp in staged areas and no economy.
    This game needs way more than twitch combat to pull me from Eve, Hell I can play a few single player games that have twitch combat already. 



    I agree.  In fact I even commented on some of the latest JGE images asking for images other than just ships flying around.  We have very little concrete information on both games so far with regards to the elements you mention.   I believe that JGE has "tradeskills" such as mining, but as for anything else and as to how detailed the economy is we don't know.

    Both NetDevil and Reakktor are keeping very tight lipped.  Which is understandable to some degree, considering that Reakktor has just come out of an insolvency case, and JGE's head honcho has just left and replaced by a guy from Mythic. 

    Personally I feel that its about time that they gave SOME new information regarding the other elements in the games, rather than just spouting the usual "its a twitch based new generation innovative MMO" buzzword laden marketing BS.

     

  • TikigodTikigod Member Posts: 42
    Originally posted by Tarka



     

    Personally I feel that its about time that they gave SOME new information regarding the other elements in the games, rather than just spouting the usual "its a twitch based new generation innovative MMO" buzzword laden marketing BS.

     

    The problem with information, is that the amount there is to share is very limited and with development of JGE being flexible to ensure the game will only release when it is ready, sharing too much too early like they have done in the past will lead not only to not much to share for the final push from closed beta -> Open beta -> Release hype generation, but also sharing alot of indepth game mechanics information can end up doing more harm than good if they mention acertain set of features, but by the time the game hits closed beta those features have been reiterated a dozen times and no long look similar to what was said.

    The delays from the original estimated target have I feel contributed alot to the drop in information being shared these last 5-6 months, as in the lead up to that estimate they released all the ship variation information, released sector information, showcased alot of battlespace and the early section of the game players will see in their first few hours.

    And now with the old date scrubbed and the current project date of "When it's done, We don't have any firm date to share right now", there is only so much left they can use to fill in the time between now and a time when they have a new estimate date and that date is actually on the mark and looking likely.

     

    It would harm peoples interest in the game alot more if they were told information every month for 7 months about a range of features, and then the game is delayed further pending more iterations on existing content leading to there being next to nothing left to share with people who might start following the game later other then playing catch up between what has changed with already shared features.

    And ultimately, as I think these forums are a good example of is that even when you release new information correcting some older information that had been stated alot of people will not notice the changes and will still base their opinions on the older now inaccurate information and build their expectations off of that, and that's before you even consider the type of people who will forever flog some bad news for many months for the sake of pushing their own 'best way to do it' preference to be seen as more desireable.

     

    So I agree fully that some new information would be fantastic right now to fill in the quiet period that exists at the moment, but ultimately I'd personally rather wait for that information to be accurate and known to be the state of things, rather then being fed with speculative concepts every month that may or may not be in place, and then having to play catch up for the final 3 months of development figuring out what is accurate and what never made it.

    One of the problems with the scrum development process Netdevil adopt I suppose, it allows for them to really iron out the problems in features and improve on them quickly, but it certainly isn't very marketing friendly.

    You don't think there's anything amiss? I'm sat here wearing a red and white gingham dress, and army boots, you think that's un-amiss?

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by Tikigod
    One of the problems with the scrum development process Netdevil adopt I suppose, it allows for them to really iron out the problems in features and improve on them quickly, but it certainly isn't very marketing friendly.

    Wohooo! No performance testing, no compatibility testing, etc., Scrum is so much fun!

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662

    Tikigod, I understand your argument completely, sometimes giving out too detailed information either locks the devs into continuing that design framework (even though its flawed) in order to give the impression that the devs have a clear direction, or changing it radically and running the risk of pissing off the playerbase. 

    MMO players have a tendency to over-react to beta information mainly because MMO companies have had a tendency to ignore feedback given during the beta processes.  From what I've read so far, ND seem to be different, they seem to want to be open and honest and are not afraid to change their minds based on feedback.  I recall Herman saying in answer to a question that he likes to throw ideas out into the forums to gauge peoples reactions. ND seem to place a big emphasis on whats "fun", then that gives the impression that they are fully willing to change their minds should the need arise, to make something more "fun". Its all a matter of creating an open and honest dialogue.  If devs can convince their customers using logical justifications, and be honest when their ideas are not popular and therefore be prepared to change things accordingly, then I feel they will ultimately be more likely to nurture a loyal customerbase.  People respect honesty these days. 

    Coming back to the subject of information regarding JGE, I feel that there's no reason why the devs can't provide not-so-detailed information on the games more "general" aspects.  For instance, a little information about how the economy integrates gathering and crafting.  Maybe a shot of the Trade House UI.

    Perhaps, if they really wanted to see a reaction, they could publish a video showing a player going through the process of mining an asteroid, then transporting it back to a station, and then finally selling it on the Trade House.   Combat may be a big focus for players, but they really are not that bothered if changes are made to something as lowly at a Trade House UI if its for the sake of making it more user friendly.  Nevertheless, it would help ND gather information on the customers reaction to other aspects of the game, whilst at the same time allowing players to see parts of the game they've not been allowed to before.

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