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Just How Free Are You?
uquipu
Member Posts: 1,516
I think the terms 'sandbox' and 'theme park' are to ambiguous to be useful. A person's favorite game is always a sandbox while the game they don't like is always a theme park. Why not use the word 'freedom' in describing your MMO experiece like, I was completely free to do what I wanted or, I had little freedom.
I'm interested in seeing your rankings. Rank how these MMOs by their degree of freedom:
Second Life
Dark Fall
EvE
World of Warcraft
Warhammer Online
Age of Conana
Lord of the Rings
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Comments
1 Darkfall
Generation P
I saw a man in second life with a penis the same size he was, complete with swinging nads.
That kind of activity is not found in Dark Fall.
You could probably recreate much of the Dark Fall game in Second Life if you wanted. That's freedom.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Second Life by far.
It is so "Free" that many don't even consider it a game, for it has no rules (other than ToS), no set objectives, no emphasis on combat or any of that.
It is a true sandbox, so much so, that the land itself begins as a square, brown, sandy patch of land that the owner can build anything he wants.
It is so free, that it is arguably as boring as a vacant lot or sand box to many folks, while being a haven for the imagination for others.
There are limits to what can be made and built, mostly due to technology, but I have yet to see an MMO come even close to what can be created by SL users.
The closest game to SL in terms of freedom is not an MMO, but games like Oblivion and Neverwinter Nights that can be completely modded by players who create their own content.
I would love to see MMO's that take the best of SL and games like Oblivion and marry that with MMO's ease of use and their story and lore with an emphasis on player driven story, lore, and player interaction.
Yes I definatly agree. Second Life is a perfect example of true sandbox. I played it for a bit but my addiction to other games took over that time. It really is fun though even for a casual "player". I have friends that love SIMs and never played an mmo, who LOVE Second Life.
I've heard the crowd who says Second Life is not a game. I would phrase that as: in Second Life, you have the freedom not to be in a game.
There are games in Second Life that players have made.
There's this area called Tombstone that's a western theme. They require that your toon be at least two weeks old to keep out the griefers. But you can kill each other, everyone wears a western outfit, they have free western outfits if you can't afford one and so on. It sounds like a whole MMO built within second life.
It's so free that I can't figure out what to do with myself.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I saw a man in second life with a penis the same size he was, complete with swinging nads.
That kind of activity is not found in Dark Fall.
You could probably recreate much of the Dark Fall game in Second Life if you wanted. That's freedom.
Er..but why would you want that? Now you step over into the surreal, and I prefer my games to have some basis in reality.
Salvidore Dali I'm not.
In the above example it would only be entertaining if I could exterminate said person from the game completely for being an asshat. Unfortunately my freedom might ruin his experience so SL isn't really the game for me.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, that's because a sandbox is not a game. You play games IN a sandbox. SL, is a giant, virtual sandbox.
In reality, SL does not fit well into your list for the reason we, and you have cited.
There are sims that have more than dresscodes. There are full combat sims that actually use computer scripted mechanics paired up with player input to resolve PVE and PVP.
Then there are the RP sims, where it is as much a game as any MUD or table top RPG, just played out on an SL sim.
SL can be a game for those who make it so.
SL really is like a sandbox, you can play games in it, or you can use it to decorate your yard, or even sell that vacant lot so they can put in a mall. It is all up to the SL residents.
I saw a man in second life with a penis the same size he was, complete with swinging nads.
That kind of activity is not found in Dark Fall.
You could probably recreate much of the Dark Fall game in Second Life if you wanted. That's freedom.
Er..but why would you want that? Now you step over into the surreal, and I prefer my games to have some basis in reality.
Salvidore Dali I'm not.
In the above example it would only be entertaining if I could exterminate said person from the game completely for being an asshat. Unfortunately my freedom might ruin his experience so SL isn't really the game for me.
Kyleran's point is very valid. Many of SL's players share his views too.
Often, such penis wielding folks (as mentioned above) gets ejected or banned from many sims for such behavior. Beyond those rules Layed out by LL in the ToS, the sim owners and the residents call all the shots.
That's why there are over ten thousand individual sims all with many diferent varieties and themes for all tastes and levels of business and/or recreational use.
Don't want Salvidor Dali, or the SL sex freakshow? Simply go to a sim that has a theme and style of play you like, or only visit those sims that do not condone or outright ban objectionable behavior.
SL's very freedom can make it very unappealing for many people. Games need consistant and concrete rules. SL, while a great experience for many, makes a lousy game... unless the players go the extra mile to make it happen: Something the average player does not want to do.
Untrue. I enjoy both styles of game, but in different ways.
Football ,greatest game in the universe ,good rules good game,like Darkfall ,good game good rules
Second life,like football without rules,something good but something which is not a game anymore
Generation P
You can create an account for free on Second Life these days. It has restrictions on what you can do, you can't build things with a free account for example. Check it out for yourself.
But there are Star Trek sims, Western Sims, RPG Fantasy sims where you can get rpg outfits complete with elf ears. These areas in Second Life DO have rules. If you don't follow the rules you are kicked. There are other areas in SL that don't have any rules.
So you can have your football game.
You can probably create a football game in SL. Heck there probably is one.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
You can create an account for free on Second Life these days. It has restrictions on what you can do, you can't build things with a free account for example. Check it out for yourself.
But there are Star Trek sims, Western Sims, RPG Fantasy sims where you can get rpg outfits complete with elf ears. These areas in Second Life DO have rules. If you don't follow the rules you are kicked. There are other areas in SL that don't have any rules.
So you can have your football game.
You can probably create a football game in SL. Heck there probably is one.
this is a tough one ,gotta admit that
maybe i start calling Google to a game where i can do whatever i want
my new list goes as follows
1 google
2 second life
3 darkfall
Generation P
Is SL a sandbox? Of course it is. But in the context of 'MMORPGs', SL isn't one, it's a MMOVC (virtual chatroom).
For SL itself to be classified as a game, it needs to have some underlying ruleset and game mechanics behind it, which it does not. As ironic as it may seem, there needs to be some limitations and rules to what can and cannot be done within it, otherwise it isn't a game. Sure there may be games within SL that have rules and limitations, but SL itself is not one.
The difference between what is a themepark and sandbox game, and what isn't even considered a game, is the degree of freedom and volume of choices vs rulesets and restriction. Too far on one side you're in a themepark, too much on the other and you're not even playing a game.
You can create an account for free on Second Life these days. It has restrictions on what you can do, you can't build things with a free account for example. Check it out for yourself.
But there are Star Trek sims, Western Sims, RPG Fantasy sims where you can get rpg outfits complete with elf ears. These areas in Second Life DO have rules. If you don't follow the rules you are kicked. There are other areas in SL that don't have any rules.
So you can have your football game.
You can probably create a football game in SL. Heck there probably is one.
this is a tough one ,gotta admit that
maybe i start calling Google to a game where i can do whatever i want
my new list goes as follows
1 google
2 second life
3 darkfall
Nerf Gmail, it's overpowered!
Buff Google docs!
You can create an account for free on Second Life these days. It has restrictions on what you can do, you can't build things with a free account for example. Check it out for yourself.
But there are Star Trek sims, Western Sims, RPG Fantasy sims where you can get rpg outfits complete with elf ears. These areas in Second Life DO have rules. If you don't follow the rules you are kicked. There are other areas in SL that don't have any rules.
So you can have your football game.
You can probably create a football game in SL. Heck there probably is one.
this is a tough one ,gotta admit that
maybe i start calling Google to a game where i can do whatever i want
my new list goes as follows
1 google
2 second life
3 darkfall
This is a case where both posters are right.
SL, in itself, is not really a game, but you can play a nearly infinite number of games within it.
What does second life have in common with Wow?
1. An avatar
2. An inventory for your avatar
3. Emotes for your avatar
4. Movement keys
5. Camera view
6. Land you can walk on, walls you can bump into, water
7. Other players you can interact with
The biggest thing that WoW has that SL doesn't have is a designed path for people to follow to advance and progress, eg, WoW's quest system.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
There are a lot of differences too. I will only touch on some.
SL has no mobs or independent NPC's. In fact, SL cannot support this.
SL was designed to be a virtual platform designed for business, entertainment and eductational purposes and to bridge the gap between the real world and virtual world...especially in the areas of business and education.
WoW is what it set out to be-- a game.
I play both and I like both, but you really are comparing two seperate entities.
Your postition is analogous to comparing art supplies (like drawing pads and markers) to Monopoly. Both are fun, and one can come up with similarities-- like how Monopoly's board and money is art printed on paper stock, but the similarities end there.
True, I could draw a Monopoly board and money with a drawing pad and markers, but that is only an option for an artist, and most artists use their supplies to make art and buy the premade Monopoly game when they want to play it.
You can make a game out of art supplies as any kid will tell you, but that still does not make art supplies a game. Art has very few rules, games do. SL has very few rules (other than ToS), MMOs do.
What makes Monopoly, well Monopoly, is its specific and unique rules combined with its peices and design.
WoW is WoW because of its specific rules and design.
If you want to be an artist (in this case) utilize SL. If you want to play a game, play WoW. I do both.
There are a lot of differences too. I will only touch on some.
SL has no mobs or independent NPC's. In fact, SL cannot support this.
SL was designed to be a virtual platform designed for business, entertainment and eductational purposes and to bridge the gap between the real world and virtual world...especially in the areas of business and education.
WoW is what it set out to be-- a game.
I play both and I like both, but you really are comparing two seperate entities.
Your postition is analogous to comparing art supplies (like drawing pads and markers) to Monopoly. Both are fun, and one can come up with similarities-- like how Monopoly's board and money is art printed on paper stock, but the similarities end there.
True, I could draw a Monopoly board and money with a drawing pad and markers, but that is only an option for an artist, and most artists use their supplies to make art and buy the premade Monopoly game when they want to play it.
You can make a game out of art supplies as any kid will tell you, but that still does not make art supplies a game. Art has very few rules, games do. SL has very few rules (other than ToS), MMOs do.
What makes Monopoly, well Monopoly, is its specific and unique rules combined with its peices and design.
WoW is WoW because of its specific rules and design.
If you want to be an artist (in this case) utilize SL. If you want to play a game, play WoW. I do both.
I don't think your arguments are quite accurate. For example, I plan on playing in the Tombstone sim in Second Life. I did not design this sim, I didn't design the western outfits, I didn't design the guns or the combat system. Like me getting an account in WoW, I'm going to show up at the Tombstone sim in SL and play. And I don't need any talent to do so.
This particular sim in SL has a lot of rules and if you don't follow them, you are kicked. I'll choose to follow the rules.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
There are a lot of differences too. I will only touch on some.
SL has no mobs or independent NPC's. In fact, SL cannot support this.
SL was designed to be a virtual platform designed for business, entertainment and eductational purposes and to bridge the gap between the real world and virtual world...especially in the areas of business and education.
WoW is what it set out to be-- a game.
I play both and I like both, but you really are comparing two seperate entities.
Your postition is analogous to comparing art supplies (like drawing pads and markers) to Monopoly. Both are fun, and one can come up with similarities-- like how Monopoly's board and money is art printed on paper stock, but the similarities end there.
True, I could draw a Monopoly board and money with a drawing pad and markers, but that is only an option for an artist, and most artists use their supplies to make art and buy the premade Monopoly game when they want to play it.
You can make a game out of art supplies as any kid will tell you, but that still does not make art supplies a game. Art has very few rules, games do. SL has very few rules (other than ToS), MMOs do.
What makes Monopoly, well Monopoly, is its specific and unique rules combined with its peices and design.
WoW is WoW because of its specific rules and design.
If you want to be an artist (in this case) utilize SL. If you want to play a game, play WoW. I do both.
I don't think your arguments are quite accurate. For example, I plan on playing in the Tombstone sim in Second Life. I did not design this sim, I didn't design the western outfits, I didn't design the guns or the combat system. Like me getting an account in WoW, I'm going to show up at the Tombstone sim in SL and play. And I don't need any talent to do so.
This particular sim in SL has a lot of rules and if you don't follow them, you are kicked. I'll choose to follow the rules.
Tombstone is a 'game' within SL, but that doesn't make SL a game.
You can feasibly play a game of 'pen and paper' D&D over MSN, or heck even through SL as well, but that doesn't make MSN or SL a D&D game, but simply a platform to play it over.
SL is simply a Virtual Chatroom that can be used as a paltform for social activities in a virtual setting.
SL isn't a game its like a game creation system with a chat box.
IF you dont like making sims then you get next to nothing out of SL.
I want freedom but I still want it to be a videogame.
Its the reason I dont mess with PC game toolkits. I enjoy playing that rpg or fps shooter but I dont want to design a level.
Now take away the ability to build things in SL and look through the eyes of a video game player. Are any of those sims any more open ended than your average themepark? nope. You may have alot of sims to choose from but it doesn't make SL an enjoyable experience overall.
As for as freedom within a game goes.
My vote goes 1.UO, 2. EVE, 3. SWG pre-cu, 4. DF , 5. Ryzom.
Sorry those themeparks that you listed don't belong in a "Freedom" thread.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Among the ones you listed, I'd go in this order:
1. Second Life 2. EVE 3. Dark Fall 4. World of Warcraft 5. Lord of the Rings 6. Warhammer Online 7. Age of Conana 8. Dungeons and Dragons Online
But if I made my own list it'd go more like:
1. Wurm Online
2. A Tale in the Desert
3. Ultima Online
4. EVE Online
5. The Saga of Ryzom
6. Star Wars Galaxies (pre-CU)
7. Darkfall
8. Fallen Earth
9. Asheron's Call
10. Vanguard
My issues with EVE and SWG were that these games had the nasty habit of limiting my freedom in the areas I really liked and offering me freedom to do the stuff I did not want to do. So it really is a very personal preference. Myself I consider WoW to have more 'freedom' than those games because while WoW might limit my freedom to do certain things, those are are the things I really not want to pursue.
There are a lot of differences too. I will only touch on some.
SL has no mobs or independent NPC's. In fact, SL cannot support this.
SL was designed to be a virtual platform designed for business, entertainment and eductational purposes and to bridge the gap between the real world and virtual world...especially in the areas of business and education.
WoW is what it set out to be-- a game.
I play both and I like both, but you really are comparing two seperate entities.
Your postition is analogous to comparing art supplies (like drawing pads and markers) to Monopoly. Both are fun, and one can come up with similarities-- like how Monopoly's board and money is art printed on paper stock, but the similarities end there.
True, I could draw a Monopoly board and money with a drawing pad and markers, but that is only an option for an artist, and most artists use their supplies to make art and buy the premade Monopoly game when they want to play it.
You can make a game out of art supplies as any kid will tell you, but that still does not make art supplies a game. Art has very few rules, games do. SL has very few rules (other than ToS), MMOs do.
What makes Monopoly, well Monopoly, is its specific and unique rules combined with its peices and design.
WoW is WoW because of its specific rules and design.
If you want to be an artist (in this case) utilize SL. If you want to play a game, play WoW. I do both.
I don't think your arguments are quite accurate. For example, I plan on playing in the Tombstone sim in Second Life. I did not design this sim, I didn't design the western outfits, I didn't design the guns or the combat system. Like me getting an account in WoW, I'm going to show up at the Tombstone sim in SL and play. And I don't need any talent to do so.
This particular sim in SL has a lot of rules and if you don't follow them, you are kicked. I'll choose to follow the rules.
Still does not change what SL is. You are simply describing something made using SL-- in this case the Tombstone sim. The fact you didn't make it does not alter what SL is, only your perception of it.
You might want to read the Linden Labs Mission statement. You'll see I am very accurate, especially on the business and education aspects. Also, show me a sim with fully scripted and independent NPC's and mobs like MMOs have.
I really did make my own Monopoly game using art supplies when I was 12. I made the board, money, card, dice and even the figures all out of paper, glue and markers and I even played it with my friends. That still doesn't make basic art supplies a game.
They (Tombstone) have used SL to make a game. Does that make SL a game?
Most cars are made of metal. Does that make metal a car?
Is the sand in a sandbox a game, or is it just sand?
I agree with you that SL offers great freedom and many great things can be made with it, including games, but it is still nothing like WoW.
I also agree with you that MMOs can benefit greatly from certain aspects of SL.
I mean, who wouldn't want to play an MMO where you can fully customize a character the way you can in SL, build houses and all kinds of cool objects? I would kill for an inventory in WoW that can hold the 24,000+ items my Avi has. Hell, I would be ecstatic if MMO items were half as cool as many SL items are.
I see SL as a platform and tools for my imagination. And while I sometimes make SL into a game, it is not really a game in the same sense a MMO is.
Btw, there are some things in MMOs I wish SL used:
Like WoW's movement and camera controls. SL's movement and camera set up sucks. I hate it.
SL's learning is very steep and is not user friendly.
SL's UI is plain bad.
I would kill to have SL half as stable and lag free as WoW is.
I also hate SL's way of earning in world cash: The fact that SL is one giant item mall, and if you want to get your avi out of looking like a noob, you have to pony up and buy Lindens. I have spent more on SL than all the MMOs (Sub or Item mall) I have played combined.
So yeah, pro's and cons. SL is what it is, and WoW and other MMOs are what they are.
As both a longtime SL and MMO player who greatly enjoys experiencing both, I must say:
QFT!