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What is the Obsession With End Game?

DauntisDauntis Member UncommonPosts: 600

Why do people burn through content just to get to end game and bitch? Why should MMOs have more to do at the end then any other game, I mean the fact that you can do pretty much whatever you want at the end and pvp is more than just credits rolling, or forcing your character back to level 1 and making the content harder?

I guess I don't care about end game because I can make a new toon and have a completely different gaming experience.

 

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Comments

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Member Posts: 2,221

    Yes I agree. Ive never understood it myself.

  • flguy147flguy147 Member UncommonPosts: 487

    it seems so many people dont want to actually play the game but instead get to max level as fast as possible.  it takes me a very long time to reach max level.  but i also dont play 5 hours a day which i dont see how any adult could if they have a job, family and friends.  i enjoy the leveling up content and actually play it.  instead of seeing if i can get to end game in a week.   also its very difficult to make end game with endless content like some people seem to think it should have. 

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    It's a good question. I have no idea.

    It does seem rather funny.

    I made a bunch of posts stating that I'd like a game that encourages grouping. And I get blasted with people say, NO Forced grouping! WE have families, we can't be Forced to Group! We have to SOLO! I can't sit around LFG all the time! I have to make progress! Right now!

    Uh, ok. you need to make progress playing solo, for what exactly?

    So I can get to the level cap and go on raids of course!

    Oh, so you can play a forced grouping game at the end?

    Yes, exactly!

    Seems rather odd, but that's how it works. Solo to the max level as fast as possible, so you can raid. I guess.

    Unless the end game is PvP I suppose, but I don't see many RvR games being released. There is WAR but they came up with a pretty sucky design and managed to throw a wet blanket on RvR.

    image

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059

    Because the content before the end game isn't nearly as interesting?  Because achieving max level feels rewarding?  Because accomplishing tasks before other people is a form of competition?  There are lots of reasons.

    Most people didn't burn their way through to the end game back when Everquest was released.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    I think there should be an option to buy a maxed out toon for 12 months of subscripton price.

    So, 14.95 a month, for 12 months, which is $179.40.

    If you don't want to do the content to level, you just pay 180 bucks, rounded up, and there you go, max level toon so you can raid.

     

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  • KirinRahlKirinRahl Member UncommonPosts: 159

    I actually hear this one a lot and I have a good answer for it.

    It's hard to fully express how important endgame is.  When it comes down to it, new-game content is something people will progress through, likely many times, before their time with a game is through.  As such it is important that it be either at least remotely engaging or be efficient and possible to run through.  Having a game where early-game parts are lengthy and difficult to burn through is -extremely- aggravating for those of us who wish to get to the end, as many (myself included) consider the leveling grind in itself to be nothing more than an extended tutorial session designed to ease you into your class and teach you all your skills one at a time.

    We also consider it to be a waste of Goddamn time after the first run through.

    People burn through content because they're chasing a carrot.  Endgame is the carrot; big dungeons, cool monsters, new lands and strange discoveries to be made should all be at endgame.  Everything from level 1 to 79 is essentially newbie zone, but as soon as you hit the Magic 80, the whole world opens up before you.  People burn through because they want to see the cool stuff that's at the end, and when there is nothing, or it's extremely repetitive and not that interesting, it turns them off fast.

    Old-fashioned MMOs like Asheron's Call 2 used to have a leveling grind that basically included endgame content.  You'd run a particular quest and then re-run it when your lockout timer was over, doing this again and again to level up.  Now, there really isn't a way to (reasonably, efficiently) CREATE end-level content, so this old-fashioned system was basically relegated to endgame and given rewards like loot or reputation instead of experience, while a line of quests essentially leads up to it.

    In all honesty, can you really run through a newbie zone ten different times on ten different classes and call the experience different?  It doesn't change.  In most MMOs, there's no way to have an actual impact on the place you're in, so you're basically doing the same (or extremely similar) quests all the way up, then doing them again, then again.

    That's all relatively basic and secondary, though.  The biggest reason that people need endgame and that MMOs specifically require tons and tons of content at the top level is because the oldest, most valuable customers who have paid the most and brought the most folks in experience -only that- after a certain point.  Pleasing your base guys, the people who bought in first and love your game most, is very important.  A lot of companies have been forgetting about it these days, thanks to the massive, marketable presence of the casual gamer.

    Call me old-fashioned.  But we need endgame because we need a reason to play for five years instead of just a few months, and unless you're going to make a really, -really- cool crafting and player-economy/politicking system (like EVE has), you're going to have to script up an awful lot of encounters.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495

    I suppose you could just design and End GAme, game.

    You log on, and it's raiding rigth from the start.

     

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  • TheHatterTheHatter Member Posts: 2,547

    Well, to the OP you play a game that has been very endgame centric almost from the very beginning. WoW. So, I can see where you're coming from.

    (he made this thread right after he posted in the WoW forums here)

     

    But really, the problem is that alot of games today don't give you reason not to try to make it to end game. It doesn't matter HOW you get to the end game as long as you get to the end game... which is the problem.

    If a game made each character different and the things they did to lvl up effect their character, then the endgame strive wouldn't be so strong as it is in most of today's MMOs. Even in the few games that do change your character on the leveling up process, give you the ability just to get to endgame and go back to get those. So what's the point in doing them when they are hard? Then once you get to the endgame, the stuff that woulda been hard if you had done it at the proper level, just ends up being a boring grind because it's so easy to do them.

     

    I just think you're confusing the need to hit endgame coming from the player, when really the games are the ones promoting them and the players are just following suit. 

    Edit:

    It also doesn't help that in alot of games with PVP, that just 5 or 6 levels below another player means you will get obliterated without the other player even breaking a sweat. (figuratively speaking)

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Member UncommonPosts: 2,059
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    I suppose you could just design and End GAme, game.
    You log on, and it's raiding rigth from the start.
     

     

    Why are you assuming the end game is raiding?  End game != raiding.

  • LobenLoben Member CommonPosts: 206

     You should be asking, what's the point of leveling up at all? Why even have levels?

    The answer is to make players feel as through they are gradually becoming more powerful and improving. The problem is you spend all this time improving for what purpose? End game. You want to be able to use all that power for something. After all you worked hard to get it. 

    People want a game they can hang around in with their friends. If there is no "end game" after the usual level grind, it's generally hard to do that, especially with a leveling system. Also an end game facilitates grouping even more since there are no level differences and you can finally do the same things your friends are doing.

    The problem really is levels and inability to effectively play with your friends when there are level differences. Unfortunately everyone designs games based on the EQ type model rather than UO skill system type. The best games seem to be those without levels. These also happen to be the games without any real "end game". See UO, Eve, pre-CU SWG, etc...... although Eve is a bit boring/problematic  for other reasons...

     

  • AzarealAzareal Member UncommonPosts: 163

    It's the "I Win !" mentality no matter how they may try to explain it away as seeing/playing new content or hanging out with friends. It's the Need to own that brand spanking new sword/staff/armor/gear that no on else has yet. It's the Need to be able to say, "Hey, you guys been to Zone Xyz yet ? Man, it's way cool. You should go soon." while knowing full well that it would take a heavy raid to get past the front doors of said Zone Xyz.

    In the past, the ultimate example of this end-game craze was EQ where people would blast through new level caps within a few days of expansion release (I actually knew someone who blew through 65-70 in 3 or 4 days - I think he didn't even sleep for all that time; when I asked him why he said "So I can be first on the server to reach the cap"). Where raids to the new zones would be broken in within that same time period and all done within a couple weeks after. Why do you think EQ had such a high rate of expansion packs being pushed out ? It wasn't just because Soe wanted money; it was because they saw that there would always be 1 or 2 guilds that could blow through their end content within a couple weeks if not days.

    Depending on the game, different classes play differently. I've lost count of how many times I've rerolled with friends on different classes just to have some fun. it didn't matter that most of the time we always ended up doing the same mobs/quests because we simply logged in to have fun and to catch up on our daily lives since we lived on other ends of the World. Unfortunately, I think we were always in the minority. Those with the "I Win !" attitude will always outnumber those who seem to just want to stroll through the games. Arguments such as "Uhmm but dude, that means you just blew away your $49.99 in a few days man" will serve absolutely no purpose.

     

  • BurtzumBurtzum Member Posts: 67

    I don't understand endgame either.  Massive online living breathing worlds should not have an endgame.  Endgame is for the story driven single player game. 

    I agree with the notion that linear leveling, and the division of the player base that it causes, is a problem that often leads to the rush to burn through content.

  • GetViolatedGetViolated Member Posts: 335
    Originally posted by Burtzum


    I don't understand endgame either.  Massive online living breathing worlds should not have an endgame.  Endgame is for the story driven single player game.

    um there has to be something for you to do once you hit max level 

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    In WoW, levels 1-79 are tutorial levels that teach you how to play your class.

    80 is where the real game starts.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • BurtzumBurtzum Member Posts: 67
    Originally posted by GetViolated


    um there has to be something for you to do once you hit max level 

     

    There shouldn't be levels.  They are too problematic.

     

    Cons to having levels:

    -leads to grind

    -creates need for "endgame"

    -creates desire to burn through content and mobs to reach said endgame, rendering all previous content as throwaway content.

    -often makes lower level areas useless to higher level players.  again, waste of content/assets/development time & money.

    -divides player base and friends

     

    Pros to having levels:

    -creates sense of accomplishment

     

    Cons outweigh pros.  I think game designers should be able to come up with better ways to feel accomplished in an online world.

     

  • NinjaNerfNinjaNerf Member Posts: 163

    Not everybody is obessed with endgame. In fact, the longer you have been playing mmorpg the less you find endgame content mandatory.

    I think the main reason people still keep doing endgame raids everyday like zombies is there aren't many games with spectacular content other than endgame raids and daily BG types of stuff.

    It is the same thing whether you start all over from level 1 or continue to do endgame raids aimlessly. Basically you play just because you just want to keep yourself busy, or play with your friends, or simply just because...

    BTW by the time when you start asking yourself why are your obsessed with endgame your life as a hardcore gamer is near the end. Your probably will become a causal players trying out all the new games, and eventually slip into oblivion from this virtual gaming world.

  • IlliusIllius Member UncommonPosts: 4,142
    Originally posted by uquipu


    In WoW, levels 1-79 are tutorial levels that teach you how to play your class.
    80 is where the real game starts.

    Wouldn't it then make more sense in this case to make a condensed tutorial that spans say 10 levels where you can pass certain challenges to show that you're "qualified" to do whatever it is you need to do at max level?  The achievers would get a kick out of this, and in no time they'd get to "where the real game starts"  Would save a lot of time coding the nonsense before "the real game" since nobody really seems to enjoy this... except for the supposed "minority" that I believe is not really as minor as some might think.

    No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-

  • DauntisDauntis Member UncommonPosts: 600

    I guess I am a more of an enjoy the journey not just the destination kinda guy. I guess if I were to drive across the united states I would indeed take the detour to see the Biggest Ball of Twine in Minnesota.

    Yes I play WoW proudly as I enjoy the hell out of it at end game, beginning and the middle (with the possible exception of that 30-50 area... fuck Stranglethorn)

     

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  • OthorOthor Member Posts: 14

    And to answer one of the original question, why it should have more content than any other game, Beacuase they want you to keep paying them 15 dollars a month.  I have no problem with buying a game for 50 bucks and I can play to the end as quickly or slowly as I choose and be done with it.  But if you want me to continue paying every month there better be something to do as an end game that matters.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by Illius

    Originally posted by uquipu


    In WoW, levels 1-79 are tutorial levels that teach you how to play your class.
    80 is where the real game starts.

    Wouldn't it then make more sense in this case to make a condensed tutorial that spans say 10 levels where you can pass certain challenges to show that you're "qualified" to do whatever it is you need to do at max level?  The achievers would get a kick out of this, and in no time they'd get to "where the real game starts"  Would save a lot of time coding the nonsense before "the real game" since nobody really seems to enjoy this... except for the supposed "minority" that I believe is not really as minor as some might think.

     

    I'm pretty sure he was joking.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230

    First: Too often the journey sucks.

    Second: PvP is at its best (read: balanced) at the end game.

    Third: End game dungeons are usually the best ones.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    It's a good question. I have no idea.
    Same here I still don't know or understand why people want to reach cap lvl or end game asap.
    It does seem rather funny.
    Yup, especially in a genre like this....
    I made a bunch of posts stating that I'd like a game that encourages grouping. And I get blasted with people say, NO Forced grouping! WE have families, we can't be Forced to Group! We have to SOLO! I can't sit around LFG all the time! I have to make progress! Right now!
    True I don't like forced grouping, yet I solo to take my time and take it in fact slow, solo makes me enjoy the game more cause I get to "smell the roses" sort of speak, where when I enter pugs it's often "finish this quest, bamm he or she made the quest and group will disband, hardly any talk, hardly any form of communication, just group to get somewhere fast, well obvious I have played plenty of fun groups, that where like me, wanting to explore, grouping not only because there is a quest that needs to finished, grouping for more then getting more xp or better rewards.
    Uh, ok. you need to make progress playing solo, for what exactly?
    Because I like to take my time, if I am going towards a quest area it could be that I see something else to do on the way, for example suddenly see lots of harvest nods/scavage, when solo nobody will tell or ask me to continue doing the quest, I can stop and take my time to go and harvest. My solo play is not about making progress, it's about getting more immersed into the game and actualy reaching lvl cap or end lvl at a much slower pass then the majority often does.
    So I can get to the level cap and go on raids of course!
    Limited view on solo play you got here.........stop thinking inside the box, know and understand plenty of solo players simply are not guilded, but are in fact pretty social/helpfull, we will group occasionly, hopefully when finding like minded gamers that are intrested in the game world instead of the game mechanics.
    Oh, so you can play a forced grouping game at the end?
    Again sorry to say a pretty limited view on what you feel about a solo player. Don't get me wrong I am sure there are plenty of people that choose solo to get somewhere faster, but I am certain there are also plenty of solo players that do so because it will last them much longer in a game then how rushers try to play it. Often the solo player I know it's about the journey, the community, which is allot more then just to group with, as grouping is just a minor social feature, and with most games it's hardly a social feature as like I said I have been in so many pugs where none seems able to speak or simply communicate, gladly and occasionly I enter or creat a pug with great peeps in it. Unfortunaly it's more rare then the silent pugs. And if all there is to do at cap lvl or endgame is raids or foced grouping I already know that end game or cap lvl is the least intresting part of the game. Well I do like raids or things we see at certain endgame feature's in MMORPG but I don't like them in a MMORPG, I much rather play those type of feature's in other genre of games like RTS or FPS games.
    Yes, exactly!
    Seems rather odd, but that's how it works. Solo to the max level as fast as possible, so you can raid. I guess.
    Unless the end game is PvP I suppose, but I don't see many RvR games being released. There is WAR but they came up with a pretty sucky design and managed to throw a wet blanket on RvR.



     

    What I find odd is that we still have people with only a focus on combat where a MMORPG can be so much more then just a combat oriented game. Combat is a obvious part of games in this genre, but people need to realize there is so much more to it then just group or raid. Even RVR or PVP are just parts of things that can be done in a MMORPG.

  • AmaraoAmarao Member UncommonPosts: 650

    To put it bluntly, every mmo should be fun before the end-game content, but they're not. All new content added is usually end-game and it's glorified. This will never change.

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Reklaw

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    It's a good question. I have no idea.
    Same here I still don't know or understand why people want to reach cap lvl or end game asap.
    It does seem rather funny.
    Yup, especially in a genre like this....
    I made a bunch of posts stating that I'd like a game that encourages grouping. And I get blasted with people say, NO Forced grouping! WE have families, we can't be Forced to Group! We have to SOLO! I can't sit around LFG all the time! I have to make progress! Right now!
    True I don't like forced grouping, yet I solo to take my time and take it in fact slow, solo makes me enjoy the game more cause I get to "smell the roses" sort of speak, where when I enter pugs it's often "finish this quest, bamm he or she made the quest and group will disband, hardly any talk, hardly any form of communication, just group to get somewhere fast, well obvious I have played plenty of fun groups, that where like me, wanting to explore, grouping not only because there is a quest that needs to finished, grouping for more then getting more xp or better rewards.
    Uh, ok. you need to make progress playing solo, for what exactly?
    Because I like to take my time, if I am going towards a quest area it could be that I see something else to do on the way, for example suddenly see lots of harvest nods/scavage, when solo nobody will tell or ask me to continue doing the quest, I can stop and take my time to go and harvest. My solo play is not about making progress, it's about getting more immersed into the game and actualy reaching lvl cap or end lvl at a much slower pass then the majority often does.
    So I can get to the level cap and go on raids of course!
    Limited view on solo play you got here.........stop thinking inside the box, know and understand plenty of solo players simply are not guilded, but are in fact pretty social/helpfull, we will group occasionly, hopefully when finding like minded gamers that are intrested in the game world instead of the game mechanics.
    Oh, so you can play a forced grouping game at the end?
    Again sorry to say a pretty limited view on what you feel about a solo player. Don't get me wrong I am sure there are plenty of people that choose solo to get somewhere faster, but I am certain there are also plenty of solo players that do so because it will last them much longer in a game then how rushers try to play it. Often the solo player I know it's about the journey, the community, which is allot more then just to group with, as grouping is just a minor social feature, and with most games it's hardly a social feature as like I said I have been in so many pugs where none seems able to speak or simply communicate, gladly and occasionly I enter or creat a pug with great peeps in it. Unfortunaly it's more rare then the silent pugs. And if all there is to do at cap lvl or endgame is raids or foced grouping I already know that end game or cap lvl is the least intresting part of the game. Well I do like raids or things we see at certain endgame feature's in MMORPG but I don't like them in a MMORPG, I much rather play those type of feature's in other genre of games like RTS or FPS games.
    Yes, exactly!
    Seems rather odd, but that's how it works. Solo to the max level as fast as possible, so you can raid. I guess.
    Unless the end game is PvP I suppose, but I don't see many RvR games being released. There is WAR but they came up with a pretty sucky design and managed to throw a wet blanket on RvR.



     

    What I find odd is that we still have people with only a focus on combat where a MMORPG can be so much more then just a combat oriented game. Combat is a obvious part of games in this genre, but people need to realize there is so much more to it then just group or raid. Even RVR or PVP are just parts of things that can be done in a MMORPG.

     

    I can definitely see that if you enjoy reading quest dialog, grouping would be a distraction.

    I've been there myself, not very often, but on occaision. At the bottom of a, for me at my level, very dangerous dungeon that I'd never been to before. And it was hard to get there. Lots of twists and turns, easy to get lost, easy to run into a mob and get wiped.

    So when I got to the bottom, and there was a quest, naturally I was a bit curious to actaully read they quest dialog. But the party was click, click, click, lets go! And if you didn't go you were going to get left behind with a quick ticket to the bind stone.

    But most of the time I could care less since quest dialog doesn't change the game world.

    image

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516


    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Illius
    Originally posted by uquipu In WoW, levels 1-79 are tutorial levels that teach you how to play your class.
    80 is where the real game starts.
    Wouldn't it then make more sense in this case to make a condensed tutorial that spans say 10 levels where you can pass certain challenges to show that you're "qualified" to do whatever it is you need to do at max level?  The achievers would get a kick out of this, and in no time they'd get to "where the real game starts"  Would save a lot of time coding the nonsense before "the real game" since nobody really seems to enjoy this... except for the supposed "minority" that I believe is not really as minor as some might think.


     
    I'm pretty sure he was joking.

    No, I was serious. WoW starts at 80. Levels 1-79 teach you how to use your character.

    At 80, I get to decide what I want to do. Do I want to raid? Pvp? Do a 5 man heroic? Roleplay with friends? Explore old instance? Go and terrorize the lowbees? Do one of the many daily quests. Grind faction? Practice my jousting?

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

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