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Will we ever see a mmo without XP or skillpoints?

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  • mrcalhoumrcalhou Member UncommonPosts: 1,444
    Originally posted by caalem


    The correct answer is a FPS.




     

    Monster Hunter isnt an fps.

    --------
    "Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"

    The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
    Front: UNO Chemistry Club
    Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions

  • camp11111camp11111 Member Posts: 602
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
    .....
    The devs could put in quest lines for skills, maybe have them drop off bosses and even have them as rewards for exploration.
    .....
    no logging in and having to set a goal of Xp or Sp that session. you would get to do what you want to do.
    Log in grab some crafted gear and start adventuring.
    I don't know about you but a game like that would have me quitting almost every other mmo i play currently.
    I'm getting so tired of the raising of levels and skills I just want to have a great adventure without needing to farm xp/sp first.
     



     

    You just described "end game".

    Millions of players play it already in that game you hate in "you would get to do what you want to do without a set goal of Xp"

    Just playing a Battleground, a dungeon, do crafting, play the Auction House learn a new profession en get in game titles and dragons.

    That wasn't too difficult, but it shows why those millions are playing it.

    Sorry if you didn't see it earlier.

    There are no difficult theories to success. It is all very simple. Log in, play with a self set challenge/goal, log out.

    Secret of the game that shall not be named.

     

    Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.

  • neonwireneonwire Member Posts: 1,787
    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by tro44_1

    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by tro44_1


    EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre.
    Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games.
    Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP])
    If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development,
    MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.

     

    So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?

    What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.

    Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?

     

     



     

    that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario

    You should try to think outside the box a little bit.



     

    Like a lot of people this simply isnt possible for him as he doesnt have the imagination to see the type of game we are trying to discuss. He will only be able to understand the concept once he actually sees it and plays it.......and the type of game we are talking about currently doesnt exist.......so it also doesnt exist in his imagination. For now he can only use the games he has played as reference points.

    Monkey see, monkey do.

  • neonwireneonwire Member Posts: 1,787
    Originally posted by FreddyNoNose


    Go play a FPS.



     

    Monkey see, Monkey do.

  • Jairoe03Jairoe03 Member Posts: 732
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
    I was playing GW last night and even though the game has level (20) you can hit cap in like a day. After you do this you can still progress your character by hunting for skills on boss mobs stuff.
    I know GW has xp im just saying playing GW has me convinced that a game like this could work.
    Everyone would log in and never have to do repetitive shit for xp, we would all start with basic spells/abilities that would let us atleast function in both pve and pvp.
    The devs could put in quest lines for skills, maybe have them drop off bosses and even have them as rewards for exploration.
    I don;t see why this couldn't be done. A completely natural feeling game, no logging in and having to set a goal of Xp or Sp that session. you would get to do what you want to do.
    Log in grab some crafted gear and start adventuring.
    I don't know about you but a game like that would have me quitting almost every other mmo i play currently.
    I'm getting so tired of the raising of levels and skills I just want to have a great adventure without needing to farm xp/sp first.
     

     

    Then you would have second life (I haven't played it but it sounds like a completely open world to me). What would be set in place to define character advancement or how far the game has gone? If you did that with any RPG in a sense, all you'll be left with is roleplaying and it'll  be like the Sims in a fantasy setting. Roleplayers in RPG's seem to be a fairly small population that helps make up the general MMORPG population. It would never be taken out because what would measure the advancement of any character in a game?

  • ThillianThillian Member UncommonPosts: 3,156
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
     



     

    You are on a wrong forum.

    This is a MMORPG.com. Notice the ... rpg part. If you take away experience, and skills mechanics - it's becomes a FPS shooter. There are shooters out there, altho not massive. You should rather try to post your suggestions on battefield forums.

    REALITY CHECK

  • metalhead980metalhead980 Member Posts: 2,658
    Originally posted by camp11111

    Originally posted by metalhead980


    I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
    .....
    The devs could put in quest lines for skills, maybe have them drop off bosses and even have them as rewards for exploration.
    .....
    no logging in and having to set a goal of Xp or Sp that session. you would get to do what you want to do.
    Log in grab some crafted gear and start adventuring.
    I don't know about you but a game like that would have me quitting almost every other mmo i play currently.
    I'm getting so tired of the raising of levels and skills I just want to have a great adventure without needing to farm xp/sp first.
     



     

    You just described "end game".

    Millions of players play it already in that game you hate in "you would get to do what you want to do without a set goal of Xp"

    Just playing a Battleground, a dungeon, do crafting, play the Auction House learn a new profession en get in game titles and dragons.

    That wasn't too difficult, but it shows why those millions are playing it.

    Sorry if you didn't see it earlier.

    There are no difficult theories to success. It is all very simple. Log in, play with a self set challenge/goal, log out.

    Secret of the game that shall not be named.

     

     

    You would be right if todays MMOs were more than just item hunts. In todays MMOs endgames give you about 10-20% of the gameworld to play in, Force you to do nothing but Run dungeons over and over. Honestly the item farming mechanic is almost as worthless as XP right now.

    Didn't we get enough item farming by playing Diablo? is it too much to ask for a real adventure in a MMO?

    PLaying: EvE, Ryzom

    Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum

  • tro44_1tro44_1 Member Posts: 1,819
    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by tro44_1

    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by tro44_1


    EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre.
    Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games.
    Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP])
    If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development,
    MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.

     

    So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?

    What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.

    Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?

     

     



     

    that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario

    You should try to think outside the box a little bit.



     

    Like a lot of people this simply isnt possible for him as he doesnt have the imagination to see the type of game we are trying to discuss. He will only be able to understand the concept once he actually sees it and plays it.......and the type of game we are talking about currently doesnt exist.......so it also doesnt exist in his imagination. For now he can only use the games he has played as reference points.

    Monkey see, monkey do.

    Noo, what Iam am saying, is that EXP defines the RPG genre of video games. Ask yourself.

     

    What makes a game cassifided as a RPG rather then just a Action or Adventure title. Go to IGN.com, and scroll through the game list. And see for your self.

    If you want a MMO without EXP, then that could be understandable, which is why I suggested a FPS, but asking for mmoRPG<---

    without EXP, is just plain silliy. Its like asking for a Racing Game without Vehicles.

  • drago_pldrago_pl Member Posts: 384


    Originally posted by tro44_1

    Originally posted by neonwire

    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by tro44_1

    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by tro44_1

    EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre.
    Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games.
    Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP])
    If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development,
    MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.


     
    So you can't have character development/progression without XP/SP?
    What if you didn't need to level? what if you went on adventures to gain skills? if the entire gameworld is your level on day one that doesn't mean progression ends it just means we got rid of the shitty xp farming.
    Wouldn't you like to move away from the "I need to get that next level" feeling and just enjoy the game how you want it without skill grinding prerequisites?
     
     

     
    that would be an adventure game then. Check out Maximo vs Mario


    You should try to think outside the box a little bit.

     
    Like a lot of people this simply isnt possible for him as he doesnt have the imagination to see the type of game we are trying to discuss. He will only be able to understand the concept once he actually sees it and plays it.......and the type of game we are talking about currently doesnt exist.......so it also doesnt exist in his imagination. For now he can only use the games he has played as reference points.
    Monkey see, monkey do.


    Noo, what Iam am saying, is that EXP defines the RPG genre of video games. Ask yourself.
     
    What makes a game cassifided as a RPG rather then just a Action or Adventure title. Go to IGN.com, and scroll through the game list. And see for your self.
    If you want a MMO without EXP, then that could be understandable, which is why I suggested a FPS, but asking for mmoRPG<---
    without EXP, is just plain silliy. Its like asking for a Racing Game without Vehicles.

    I completely agree that EXP defines RPG. But what is EXP? It's EXPerience. Experience have nothing in common with getting 50 points per mob kill. Experience should be defined by how much you know game or how many various task your toon was able to make/discover.

    I would really like to see game when all you progress is, for example, chance based. After making some task you have a chance to understand how to make other thing. After crafting some thing you may discover how to make a better one. You wouldn't need any kind of progress bar or counting how many mobs you need to kill to get next level to be able to wear next tier of weapons. This would be still RPG because your character is progressing and learning new skills. But it would be a lot more realistic progress and exploring content would be much more exciting than just sitting at some spawn and killing all those mobs poping out from nowhere.

    Is it something completely irrational? Surely no. There are already some games where doing some task increase your skill leveles (like UO or Darkfall) but with skill levels it's still level based games. GW is a good example that game could be based on finding new skills and abilities. We just need one company that would risk doing such a game. Not everyone will like it, that's for sure, but many bored with current mechanics will definitely play it. Including me.

  • Jairoe03Jairoe03 Member Posts: 732
    Originally posted by neonwire


    Like a lot of people this simply isnt possible for him as he doesnt have the imagination to see the type of game we are trying to discuss. He will only be able to understand the concept once he actually sees it and plays it.......and the type of game we are talking about currently doesnt exist.......so it also doesnt exist in his imagination. For now he can only use the games he has played as reference points.
    Monkey see, monkey do.



     

    I think what many are arguing is the fact that there has to be a numeric representation of character progress (which is Skill points/Experience points etc.). If you take that away, you're taking away a key defining feature of what an MMORPG is. How else would you be represented in the game if you remove the measuring stick of advancement. You're just going to be left with a story, a very complex way to write a book basically. If players are playing in such a world, the might as well write a book or make a movie. Are we all just going to select a set of abilities and start kicking ass in the world from day one like all those characters from the movies and just make interesting stories with the environment provided? And here we are just looking at exp/skill points from a player perspective think of the developers and designers as well who have to balance out the systems. What will they have as a measuring stick to track progress and balance out the game? Its too necessary of a component to remove if you are trying to design an MMORPG and without something to numerically represent a character's progress you simply would not have an MMORPG. It'll be something else.

  • TatumTatum Member Posts: 1,153

    Ok, this is what I don't get.  Every one hangs onto leveling and progression as being essential to an RPG, then completely ignores the lack of actual character customization in these games???  How much does progression actually matter when you're character is excatly the same as every other character of the same race/class? 

    "Progression" is an illusion.  You're just following a pre-determined path.

     

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by drago_pl


     


    I would really like to see game when all you progress is, for example, chance based. After making some task you have a chance to understand how to make other thing. After crafting some thing you may discover how to make a better one. You wouldn't need any kind of progress bar or counting how many mobs you need to kill to get next level to be able to wear next tier of weapons. This would be still RPG because your character is progressing and learning new skills. But it would be a lot more realistic progress and exploring content would be much more exciting than just sitting at some spawn and killing all those mobs poping out from nowhere.

    Your game won't sell...people don't want LUCK to determine content. " Will I get a quest?  I don't know...just go randomly kill 100 more boars and MAYBE a quest might pop up.  Can I equip this armor?  I don't no, let me try it out again a few hrs from now.  Can I kill something?  Lets go die to it a bunch of times first to figure it out"  Sorry.  Go try selling that idea when you can't guarantee that at least a million people will be interested.  You need a million because you have to figure 1/2 won't even bother playing for random reasons.  Another chunk will just leave after the first month, so you're left with a couple 100k after that and unless you're just some indy title, thats not going to fly.  Might as well make it yourself and see how it turns out=)  

  • metalhead980metalhead980 Member Posts: 2,658
    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by drago_pl


     


    I would really like to see game when all you progress is, for example, chance based. After making some task you have a chance to understand how to make other thing. After crafting some thing you may discover how to make a better one. You wouldn't need any kind of progress bar or counting how many mobs you need to kill to get next level to be able to wear next tier of weapons. This would be still RPG because your character is progressing and learning new skills. But it would be a lot more realistic progress and exploring content would be much more exciting than just sitting at some spawn and killing all those mobs poping out from nowhere.

    Your game won't sell...people don't want LUCK to determine content. " Will I get a quest?  I don't know...just go randomly kill 100 more boars and MAYBE a quest might pop up.  Can I equip this armor?  I don't no, let me try it out again a few hrs from now.  Can I kill something?  Lets go die to it a bunch of times first to figure it out"  Sorry.  Go try selling that idea when you can't guarantee that at least a million people will be interested.  You need a million because you have to figure 1/2 won't even bother playing for random reasons.  Another chunk will just leave after the first month, so you're left with a couple 100k after that and unless you're just some indy title, thats not going to fly.  Might as well make it yourself and see how it turns out=)  

    It's this type of thinking that keeps this genre from moving forward and the reason we have a pathetic game leading it.

     

    PLaying: EvE, Ryzom

    Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum

  • syntax42syntax42 Member UncommonPosts: 1,378
    Originally posted by Jairoe03 
    I think what many are arguing is the fact that there has to be a numeric representation of character progress (which is Skill points/Experience points etc.). If you take that away, you're taking away a key defining feature of what an MMORPG is. How else would you be represented in the game if you remove the measuring stick of advancement.

     

    Have you ever played Guild Wars?  The OP pointed it out as the first successful game to basically remove XP and skill points (or make them meaningless) and still have a great game.  You can easily get to the level cap in less than eight hours of playing if you've done it before.  Skill points are so easy to get that they become meaningless.  The game is literally an interactive story at that point. 

    There was an article on this site about improving MMOs by having them mimic current single-player RPGs which are story-driven and not level-driven.  People have become so closed-minded that they think giving other people progress for free by removing level caps makes themselves less special.  There was a post on here a few days ago of someone complaining about WoW's new expansions giving away end-game gear to almost everyone instead of the "elite few."  The attitude of that player was of self-importance because of his video game accomplishments.  The posts following that flamed him for being so arrogant.  

    If you keep in mind the goal of playing a MMO is really to have fun, then you can make a game that does not depend on grinding through the levels in two months, just to hold a subscription fee.

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,320
    Originally posted by tro44_1


    EXP is what defines the RPG video game genre.
    Its whats sperates RPG games from Other games like Adventure games and Action games.
    Note iam talking about the VIDEO GAME genre (NOT REAL LIFE ROLE PLAYING AND TABLE TOP[Even though TT also uses EXP])
    If you dont want EXP play a FPS or something. RPG games are all about character development,
    MMORPG are nothing more then RPG concept with massive Mutiplayer and online.

     

    You can still have progression and achievement without experience points.

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • NicephorusNicephorus Member Posts: 52
    Originally posted by metalhead980
    honestly I just want to get away from that feeling. you know that feeling you have when you first start a mmo and you know millions of xp or sp is required to even have access to the meat of a game.



     

    There are already plenty of games like this. Sounds like you are talking about a straight FPS like Counterstrike or something. Frankly, the attitude that MMOs are all about the "end game", and everything else is just in the way is a big part of what is ruining a lot of games. Some of us actually like the rpg/character development aspect of these games.

  • metalhead980metalhead980 Member Posts: 2,658
    Originally posted by Nicephorus

    Originally posted by metalhead980
    honestly I just want to get away from that feeling. you know that feeling you have when you first start a mmo and you know millions of xp or sp is required to even have access to the meat of a game.



     

    There are already plenty of games like this. Sounds like you are talking about a straight FPS like Counterstrike or something. Frankly, the attitude that MMOs are all about the "end game", and everything else is just in the way is a big part of what is ruining a lot of games. Some of us actually like the rpg/character development aspect of these games.

    You like having to build up Xp/sp through repetitive actions as a prerequisite to see a new area or to have the ability to play with friends?

    I see no reason why the entire game world couldn't be open to us and completely remove the xp/sp mechanics.

    Make the game feel more natural.

    PLaying: EvE, Ryzom

    Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum

  • syntax42syntax42 Member UncommonPosts: 1,378
    Originally posted by Nicephorus 
    There are already plenty of games like this. Sounds like you are talking about a straight FPS like Counterstrike or something. Frankly, the attitude that MMOs are all about the "end game", and everything else is just in the way is a big part of what is ruining a lot of games. Some of us actually like the rpg/character development aspect of these games.

     

    What if a game had you develop your character by completing the story instead of killing the same things over and over for hours?  Also, it would have to get rid of the "run this doodad over there" and "kill X critters" and "gather X flowers" all because you are the only one who can save the world and us quest NPCs are stuck in place.  How would you develop your character then?  I know... you could kill a boss-enemy at the end of a story and steal his powers!  Oh wait... there alread is a game like that... Guild Wars... again...

    I know it sounds like I'm trying to convince everyone to play Guild Wars, but to be honest, I don't even play it anymore.  I got tired of the mostly-immature player-base spamming chat with pointless junk or having an hour-long flame-war in a town.  I'm just trying to point out that it is entirely possible to get rid of the idea of only being able to advance and develop a character through an experience bar.  A game has done it, and is a major success.

  • MithiosMithios Member Posts: 271
    Originally posted by metalhead980
    It would be nice to log into a mmo and have that relaxed feeling you know kind of like the feeling of a max level player that doesn't need to stress getting that next level to play with his friends.
    it's hard for me to explain.



     

    You mean that sort of lingering dread that tells you that you can't wear a set of simple leather armor with a few metal studs attached until you spend the next 36 hours killing the same retextured mobs over and over? In real life, I may not have the skill to "efficiently" wield 2 swords, but there's nothing stopping me from being able to hold a sword in each hand. It may take some practice before I become good enough to use certain armor or weapons, but I'm bound to do at least some kind damage.

    I'm not sure if I would like a a completely experienceless game, but I do think some of the limitations that the devs institute are pointless. If I want to wear a full set of field plate, then let me. might move as slow as a turtle until I can put points into strength training, but if it's what I want to do, then let me. If I want to wield two  swords starting from level one, knowing that the second sword will do  vitually no damage until I can put some points into offhand skill, the so be it, but at least I have the option. If a wizard wants to try casting that giant fireball spel at level three, let them, but allow that it will still only do the same damage as thier level 3 fireball spell and completely drain thier mana pool. If a level 10 necro wants to summon 5 minions, let them, but being as they are a low level, only 1 will follow their orders, the rest just walk off and dissapear over the horizon or crumble after a few seconds.

    This doesn't meant to say that I think all weapons, armor, spells, zones etc.. should be available right from the start. There should be certain items and zones that can't be procured until certain experience requirements are met, but why I have to wait until I am level 45 just to ride a horse has never made sense to me.

    A tiny mind is a tidy mind...

  • MannyManaMannyMana Member UncommonPosts: 121
    Originally posted by neonwire

     

    Yeah but why does "character progression" have to involve the raising of numbers and stats on a character sheet? Why does a player have to become more powerful? It doesnt neccessarily enhance the gameplay or make it more enjoyable. It does however keep players apart from each other in what are supposed to be multiplayer games. How about a game where you choose all of your skills and abilities from a massive selection at character creation.......and then thats it. Thats your character. From then on you roleplay your part in the gameworld with what you have chosen.
    Here is a possible way it could work. Every player at character creation has 1000 points to spend on skills, stats, abilities etc (maybe even hit points). One player might choose to be really strong, is a good carpenter, can swim really well and is good at surviving in the wilderness. Another player might choose to be a fast runner, can use a bow really well, has an understanding of animals and can cast some simple spells. Characters always have 1000 points and this never changes. However players can still learn new things with their chosen trades/skills. The strong carpenter could learn to build different things or pick up various survivial techniques. The fast runner could learn to tame and control various animals or learn new tricks with his bow. Players would also be able to shift their points in certain directions at the sacrifice of other skills/traits. The fast runner might decide to become more focused on his magic spells and choose to become a slower runner (he got fat from sitting around reading books lol).
    You say that a game without character progression is just a hack n slash game? Nearly all of the mmos currently on the market have character progression......and they all focus on endless combat and nothing else. Do all the players in those games choose to be mass murderers because they want to? Nope. They do it because its the only option they have. They do it because its the only way to level up their characters.......because leveling up is the only way to make any progress in the game. Would people brainlessly kill thousands of mobs if they knew their characters were not benefiting from it? Its pretty clear that character progression doesnt stop an mmo from being a hack n slash game. If anything it makes it more of one......especially when killing things to make your level go up is the only thing you have to do in a game.
    Remove the level grinding treadmills and it becomes pretty clear that virtually all of these mmos dont actually offer much at all in the way of fun or interesting gameplay. You just kill things and then go up levels so you can kill more things that match your level. Thats it. Killing 100s of the same thing over and over isnt fun......but the promise of a carrot makes it worthwhile right? The impression of progress you get from these treadmills is an illusion to keep people hooked on weak repetitive gameplay. Without the levels and exp points the players would become free to do things that they actually enjoy rather than being slaves to the boring activities that come from chasing level grinding carrots......thats assuming there were actually things to do in a game other than endless combat. Thats where most sandbox games fall flat on their faces. MMOs would actually have to provide fun gameplay and things to do that involve interacting with each other (mmo?) to keep players engrossed rather than simply throwing down levelling treadmills to keep them addicted.
    But the players in general have been too conditioned to hack n slash level grinding games games to be able to accept or understand anything else.......and the games companies have also become too conditioned by making these types of games for so many years to be capable of making anything else. This is apparent through so many peoples perception that all rpgs MUST have levels and character progression and they MUST make progress through the mass murder of mobs.



     

     

    /signed

     

    I agree with everything you have posted on this thread. You have saved me alot of time thinking and typing this out. Thank you. :)

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by metalhead980

    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by drago_pl


     


    I would really like to see game when all you progress is, for example, chance based. After making some task you have a chance to understand how to make other thing. After crafting some thing you may discover how to make a better one. You wouldn't need any kind of progress bar or counting how many mobs you need to kill to get next level to be able to wear next tier of weapons. This would be still RPG because your character is progressing and learning new skills. But it would be a lot more realistic progress and exploring content would be much more exciting than just sitting at some spawn and killing all those mobs poping out from nowhere.

    Your game won't sell...people don't want LUCK to determine content. " Will I get a quest?  I don't know...just go randomly kill 100 more boars and MAYBE a quest might pop up.  Can I equip this armor?  I don't no, let me try it out again a few hrs from now.  Can I kill something?  Lets go die to it a bunch of times first to figure it out"  Sorry.  Go try selling that idea when you can't guarantee that at least a million people will be interested.  You need a million because you have to figure 1/2 won't even bother playing for random reasons.  Another chunk will just leave after the first month, so you're left with a couple 100k after that and unless you're just some indy title, thats not going to fly.  Might as well make it yourself and see how it turns out=)  

    It's this type of thinking that keeps this genre from moving forward and the reason we have a pathetic game leading it.

     

    Your opinion is meaningless because your definition of pathetic is the opposite of reality=)

  • MidareMidare Member Posts: 46

    Sounds interesting to me. Provided the setting and aesthetic was appealing to me, I'd probably try such a game.

    I've never liked the extreme difference between the demi-god high level toons and the low level toons in regards to base HP or the like. It always seemed painfully artificial. I'd try "experiences" over numerical XP if it was an option.

  • libranimlibranim Member Posts: 139
    Originally posted by lakoka


    C9 , Manibogi Heroes (i think), Dragonica (yea....), DDO.
    Not all released but C9 seems pretty AWESOME. Just wait, lot of companies are doing game like this



     

    C9 isn't doing all too well in Korea ( I mean REAL bad: imbalance, overpowered cash items, lack of content, the lack of communication between the developers and players, the list continues...)

    These games aren't going into what the OP envisions.. they are the same thing just with 'action' tacked onto them.

    the grind still exists, there are still levels and exp and in the end they all still get stale.

    so yea, don't put too much hopes on C9, I can't comment on Mabinogi: heroes since it's still beta + I haven't really given shit about it. Dragonica?  A side-scroller with, well... same thing again.

    To the OP: I'm in a similar situation, so I usually sub to just interact with people now... Just, hopefully, wait for the 'next' thing in MMOs.

     

  • WarjinWarjin Member UncommonPosts: 1,216
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
    I was playing GW last night and even though the game has level (20) you can hit cap in like a day. After you do this you can still progress your character by hunting for skills on boss mobs stuff.
    I know GW has xp im just saying playing GW has me convinced that a game like this could work.
    Everyone would log in and never have to do repetitive shit for xp, we would all start with basic spells/abilities that would let us atleast function in both pve and pvp.
    The devs could put in quest lines for skills, maybe have them drop off bosses and even have them as rewards for exploration.
    I don;t see why this couldn't be done. A completely natural feeling game, no logging in and having to set a goal of Xp or Sp that session. you would get to do what you want to do.
    Log in grab some crafted gear and start adventuring.
    I don't know about you but a game like that would have me quitting almost every other mmo i play currently.
    I'm getting so tired of the raising of levels and skills I just want to have a great adventure without needing to farm xp/sp first.
     

    MMO's Yes there are some mostly FPS games, but a MMORPG ? The RPG part is about Character progression, It would be hard to have a RPG without that XP,Skill progression, MMO or not with out progression of some kind, XP, Skill or what ever It cant be a RPG without It, so if you want a MMORPG without character progression then Its not a RPG, MMO yes if It's a massive online game/

    1. MMO= Any game online that can support a large amount of players

    2. MMORPG= Any game online that supports a large amount of players in a ROLE playing setting

    3. MMO-T/FPS= Same as # 1 with a Third or First person view

    4. MMORPG-T/FPS= # 2 and # 3 had sex and gave birth

     

  • sfc1971sfc1971 Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Originally posted by metalhead980


    I personally wanna see a mmo where the developer completely takes the xp/skill point mechanic out of the game.
    I was playing GW last night and even though the game has level (20) you can hit cap in like a day. After you do this you can still progress your character by hunting for skills on boss mobs stuff.
    I know GW has xp im just saying playing GW has me convinced that a game like this could work.
    Everyone would log in and never have to do repetitive shit for xp, we would all start with basic spells/abilities that would let us atleast function in both pve and pvp.
    The devs could put in quest lines for skills, maybe have them drop off bosses and even have them as rewards for exploration.
    I don;t see why this couldn't be done. A completely natural feeling game, no logging in and having to set a goal of Xp or Sp that session. you would get to do what you want to do.
    Log in grab some crafted gear and start adventuring.
    I don't know about you but a game like that would have me quitting almost every other mmo i play currently.
    I'm getting so tired of the raising of levels and skills I just want to have a great adventure without needing to farm xp/sp first.
     

    And what would it change? Rather then kill 100 mobs to get the next level which gives you a new skill, you get a quest that says "kill 100x, to get your reward: a new skill".

     

    What is the difference? Like many, you seem to be unable to spot cause and effect.

    The CAUSE of the grind in MMORPG's is the need to stretch limited gameplay (there are only so many stories to tell in a game and they cost a lot of money to produce) for a long time (45 hours for Dragon Age, 45 months for Star Wars The Old republic). You "grind" a lot of MOBS because they want you to spend a significant amount of time in the game NOT because it is "needed". 

    The small XP per mob and the huge amount needed is NOT a function of XP/Levels itself. It is a result of needing to stretch.

    Say you would create a game with 100 skills, and you got each skill with a quest. Then it would be very simple to calculate the length of the game 100 x length of quest. So, if a game was supposed to last at least a year, then that is 3.6 days per quest. 

    If truly want to get rid of grinding, then you need to make the combat itself fun. Nobody grinds Counterstrike no matter how often they play it.

    Nice try kid, but next time, try to figure out WHY something exists the way it exists before trying to fix it. You would fix a bleeding wound by draining all the blood from the body to stop it bleeding. It works, but it is not the proper solution.

     

     

     

     

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