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3rd Generation MMOs
TheDarzin
Member Posts: 219
I have this question running through my head and would like to pose it to the community at large.
Assuming that the first generation of MMOs began in 1996ish, and the Second Generation Started in 2003, we should expect to see 3rd Generation MMOs in the next few years. So, I pose the question -- what do you expect from 3rd Generation MMOs?
Are you looking for Theme Park, Half Sandbox, or Full Sandbox Games, where you can choose progression routes that fit your play style?
Are you looking for better combat systems -- where timing and the ability to use chain attacks is more important than button mashing?
Are you looking for better character development? Preferred system?
Are you looking for better crafting options? Maybe a fully realized system?
Scaling Dungeons for level and number of players?
Phasing Zones -- like WoW uses so that progressing through content changes the world?
Randomized Dungeon Generators -- so that rather than running the same dungeon over and over, you can play different dungeons of a similar theme?
More end game content?
Morality systems, consequences?
The ability to influence NPCs and factions with an actual faction system? One that means the King might be persuaded to open a dungeon, declare war and so on?
I am just tossing out some ideas, but what do you expect from 3rd Generation MMOs and what will separate them from the current tide of games?
Comments
darkfall was the next generation of MMOS
Not an answer, nor is it a 3rd Generation Game. It plays more like a spiritual successor to Asheron's Call Darktide Server.
Darzin -- A Gnome in a Night Elf World
HAHA! yeah...........
Op, I don't know what the future of MMOs will be but I hope it's nothing like WoW.
Talk about de-evolution of a subgenre.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Well Darzin, most of what you already stated I would love to see in the next generation of MMOs.
What I MOST would like to see however is getting away from High Fantasy and doing more to cover the other genres.
Where is the Horror type of MMO, or Mystery MMO, or true FPS MMO (for those who like FPSs) Where is the Business Sim MMO (other than Airwaysim.. great game though) or the Political MMO... maybe even *gasp* a turn-based MMO? Where are the more Historical MMOs? Lots of untouched ideas are out there.. this is where I hope the industry will start making inroads into.
Third gen MMO would be any MMO that pulls us out of this huge rut of backtracking and stagnation. It feels like the Dark Ages, people "reinventing" features that have been around since 1999, but hadn't been used because WoW took over and people are finally putting them back in. So yeah, Darkfall would count as that.
Darkfall Travelogues!
The Third Generation is not defined by reinventing anything -- remember EQ1 is a first generation MMO. Being a fan of a game doesn't constitute it is a precursor for the next generation of games, no matter how much you want it to.
Darzin -- A Gnome in a Night Elf World
The Third Generation is not defined by reinventing anything -- remember EQ1 is a first generation MMO. Being a fan of a game doesn't constitute is a precursor for the next generation of games, no matter how much you want it to.
If EQ1 is a first gen game, than WoW is a .5 generation game. Most of the features, contents, mechanics, and innovations of those older games are far far more complex and well made than anything we have today, which is why a new gen would have to bring those back before we can advance.
Darkfall Travelogues!
The Third Generation is not defined by reinventing anything -- remember EQ1 is a first generation MMO. Being a fan of a game doesn't constitute is a precursor for the next generation of games, no matter how much you want it to.
If EQ1 is a first gen game, than WoW is a .5 generation game. Most of the features, contents, mechanics, and innovations of those older games are far far more complex and well made than anything we have today, which is why a new gen would have to bring those back before we can advance.
So, what you are saying is that, you are pretty much biased against WoW and any game that isn't WoW (or has similar mechanics as WoW) is better? Or is it that you are one of those people who feel that MMOs going mainstream is a tragedy and that all game companies should simply struggle along with 100K subscribers if they are lucky? I am simply not sure what WoW or first generation games have to do with the original question.
Darzin -- A Gnome in a Night Elf World
In short? I think the next generations of MMO's should be more like my concept.
I'm looking for something that's at least half-sandbox. I understand there are lots of players out there who want or need the direction that your themeparks offer, but I prefer more freedom like in a sandbox. What's I've seen from current sandboxes are just not what I really enjoy. They seem to offer everything (which I think is a bad thing), or not enough. Players are either able to be EVERYTHING all at once at the same time on the same character, or they simply exist and really aren't anything.
I'm not opposed to a change in direction in terms of combat. But if I have to choose between mindless button mashing, and some kind of aim and twitch, I'd rather mash buttons any day. But if it's more creative than that like perhaps Age of Conan, or even something like Assassins Creed, I'd be interested to see that implemented in an MMO.
I do like some kind of character progession. I heard someone (I believe it was on these forums) put it best that nothing is epic anymore in MMO's. I want that epic feeling again. Not sure how to get it, but a race for levels or gear isn't epic.
I would like some more diversity in crafting. I think there should be some kind of happy medium between WoW (clicking create-all and walking away for 10 minutes) and Vanguard. I liked the idea in Vanguard where you had to pay more attention to crafting, but to get anywhere in crafting in Vanguard just seemed to take too long, too much time, not enough reward early enough... a true grind. I'd also like to see where the components have some attributes as well that affect the outcome of the final item's quality.
Call me crazy but I'd like to get away from the dungeons altogether. I am all for grouping, but requiring a group to run certain areas or penalizing for having a group in others seems retarded. Scaling areas, regions, mob spawn rates, etc. I think could be a good idea.
Phasing areas/zones. I don't think this is a bad idea altogether. In fact, I think if players are having a noticable affect on the world around them... even if it's only their version, or vision of the world... then players feel more like a part of that world. I think most people like to feel like their a part of something that has an effect on the world... even if it's a virtual world.
Randomized Dungeon generators... See part above where I'd like to get away from dungeons altogether. Perhaps player created dungeons somehow? Think phasing an area to become a dungeon because of something the player or players did. Once they "fix" that area, it phases back out of being a dungeon into something else. Maybe a cave full of treasure?
I think the next generation of MMO's should get away from the end game. Make the journey getting there more fun and enjoyable. I would love it if I felt like I wasn't in a race to get to the end of the game to stay competitive with my fellow players, and could really enjoy the world around me. I think players see that in order to do what everyone else is doing they have to keep up and get to max level to get all the 5w33t G34r. To get to that max level they get tunnel vision. They don't read why they're being given a mission... they just scroll to the bottom to see that they need to kill 6 rabid ferrets, then run off to find the rabid ferrets, kill 6 return for xp reward, rinse, repeat. No one plays to see that the rabid ferrets bit and killed their son, or that the world around them on their way to the ferret hole is a living breathing beautiful place with deer, and trees, and mountains.
With the increase of games leaning towards PvP, I think having some kind of morality system would be a good thing. Where there were consequences for their actions... and those consequences aren't always good.
Very VERY well said Decade85!
Is Ultima Online one generation and EverQuest with it's 3D graphics one generation above it?
And what of Merridian 59 that was launched one year before Ultima Online and had a much more advanced graphics engine i.e. 3D compared to Ultima Online's 2D graphics?
Does better graphics make it a new generation or maybe housing?
I see it like this:
Generation One: 2D graphics
Generation Two: 3D graphics
Generation Three: What a games developer claims his new MMO to be.
But this makes Meridian 59 one generation higher than Ultima Online that launched one year later.
Pretty funny huh?
I think for a MMO to be a third generation game it must have a very advanced A.I. and I don't think that we will see that anytime soon.
And thats just my two cents folks.
Edited for spelling
The Third Generation is not defined by reinventing anything -- remember EQ1 is a first generation MMO. Being a fan of a game doesn't constitute is a precursor for the next generation of games, no matter how much you want it to.
If EQ1 is a first gen game, than WoW is a .5 generation game. Most of the features, contents, mechanics, and innovations of those older games are far far more complex and well made than anything we have today, which is why a new gen would have to bring those back before we can advance.
When it comes to technology in consumer products, it is the earlier generations that are more complex and inaccessible. As the tech moves to newer generations it becomes easier to use, less complex and much more accessible.
Installing memory in a PC used to require plugging an object with fragile metal legs (SIPPs come immediately to mind) into your motherboard, changing a few jumper settings and updating a BIOS configuration. With some operating systems, you had to add cryptic lines to your startup files in order for your software to see the memory even after all that. Now, all that is required is plugging a rather sturdy card into a slot and you are done.
A mobile phone used to have a base that installed in the front of your car with a cable that ran to your trunk to the rest of it. It was expensive, rather immobile and had limited coverage. You could make a phone call and nothing more with it... and the quality was crappy. A few months ago I travelled to Iceland and forgot my phone. I was able to buy a 25 USD phone with a full color display, web capability and assorted other bells and whistles. Setup took 10 minutes and then I began merrily texting away to friends and famly. The device was smaller than a cigarette pack.
Accessibility, ease of use and less complexity usually increases as tech progresses through generations.
Now, before people get their panties in a bunch, I am not saying EQ is a bad game nor an I saying that WOW is a better game. Undeniably, though, WOW is a generation ahead of EQ in all regards.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The Third Generation is not defined by reinventing anything -- remember EQ1 is a first generation MMO. Being a fan of a game doesn't constitute is a precursor for the next generation of games, no matter how much you want it to.
If EQ1 is a first gen game, than WoW is a .5 generation game. Most of the features, contents, mechanics, and innovations of those older games are far far more complex and well made than anything we have today, which is why a new gen would have to bring those back before we can advance.
So, what you are saying is that, you are pretty much biased against WoW and any game that isn't WoW (or has similar mechanics as WoW) is better? Or is it that you are one of those people who feel that MMOs going mainstream is a tragedy and that all game companies should simply struggle along with 100K subscribers if they are lucky? I am simply not sure what WoW or first generation games have to do with the original question.
STRUGGLE ALONG with 100k subs? Most MMOs NOW don't even have that much. EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot at their peak had 500k+ subscribers. Nowadays, companies have to dump more money into advertising their WoW clone than those old games used to build the entire game. Mainstreaming does not look like it has been good for the companies, because it bankrupted both Age of Conan, and killed Mythic. Good for the players? Nope not really there either. The massive amount of casual players WoW brought in will likely never leave WoW because they aren't even aware there's an MMO genre, many aren't even gamers, much less MMO gamers.
Anyway, ALL of that is besides the point. The major point is, for a new generation of MMO to exist, we have to catch up to where the old ones were. Just like, I'm not going to consider the Dark Ages more advanced than classical Roman times until someone reinvents plumbing and baths. Take a list of things you can do in UO and compare it to WoW, or DAoC to WoW and its various clones, and its really a sad sad list. Why does a game from 2001 have every single feature WoW does, and then some, but Wow, with 100 developers, can't do anything new?
Darkfall Travelogues!
The next generation starts with an entirely new way to conceive character progression.
And a new reason to socialize, not just LFG LFM LFR.
Socialization has been killed by the WoW generation.
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IMHO
3rd Gen MMOs should....
1. Get us away from the grind
2. Allow players to do both instances and sandbox on their own terms (kind of like DAOC) but give good reasons to do both.
3. Provide a great end game....this is something all MMOs have messed up lately. Except maybe EVE.
4. Allow very customizable races/classes/characters within the game world's setting.
5. combine class and skill based system to give the player the best options on how to play their character.
6. NOT OVER MARKET THE CRAP OUT OF THEIR GAMES AND THEN COME UP SHORT.
that's all I got... for now...the list could go on and on.
Then again EVE still belongs to the 1st gen.
Let's be honest, there's been a huge regress in complexity, conception of virtuality, massive simulation. Because suddenly they had to make games for kids.
A new way to conceive character progression and cancel forever grinding and farming is that if a person wants for example to be a master of swords, he has to read real manuals of sword fighting, booking an examination with a person from the staff who will do a real-time chat interview... if the player PASSES, the staff person will increase skills and powers for the character.
It can't be any simpler. Take for example Star Trek Online... there shouldn't be skills, grinding, quests to do and repeat, mob and other WoW clone crap.
You want to be a Lt. Commander? Just study a little book, do the tests and exams at Starfleet academy, and you're on... when you take your station you will do nothing but what you have studied. This way the game would be coherent with the settings, simulative and free of grind.
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I agree completely.
We are talking about games here. If manuals were funny to read, noone would be playing games but study, have fun and be successful in life. A game would fail badly anytime with a mechanic like this (although there would be some who would do their homework for fame and elitism lol).
Me, I am just happy with the quest-based direction games seem to be taking lately. Mind numbing grind is being replaced by less mind numbing quest grind. The 3rd generation will start with Blizzard's next MMO and continue with the many games trying to clone it anyways xD
1 + 1 = 2... Unless it CRITS!
We are talking about games here. If manuals were funny to read, noone would be playing games but study, have fun and be successful in life. A game would fail badly anytime with a mechanic like this (although there would be some who would do their homework for fame and elitism lol).
Me, I am just happy with the quest-based direction games seem to be taking lately. Mind numbing grind is being replaced by less mind numbing quest grind. The 3rd generation will start with Blizzard's next MMO and continue with the many games trying to clone it anyways xD
Yes that's my whole point. MMO's aren't games, they are virtual worlds.
But we're talking about studying fricking 20 pages of being an ENSIGN here, or a chief engineer or an assistant chief engineer. It's not 1000 pages of crap. The fun part would still do what comes later.
You talk about fun but i don't find fun in spamming quests. And as it has been said, Quests are boring mob farm and level grind disguised and made easier. 10 years ago nearly every game had a sturdy manual to read and it wasn't a problem for anyone, it was normal... the fact that you people don't wanna read 20 bloody pages goes to show how much games became matter for children who don't wanna read, they just wanna shoot schtuff. It's bad. And in this case you're preferring repetitive dumb kill 10 rats and bring me their testicles, rinse and repeat quests, stuff for fucking retards(no offence to retards) instead of knowledge, reading, culture. It's REALLY a horrible sign of immaturity... games are games, but who says games can't teach you stuff, and that games can't include some damn short reading before the actual thing?
I am against anything that's being repeated constantly and unaltered... and that's the quest system, that's being cloned ever since WoW, in every single game.
And yeah before someone comes up with the usual phrase "quests exist before WoW"(oh yeah you can tell ive been discussing this stuff for 10 years from this), i don't mean the "generic" concept of a quest, that, yeah, it's been there ever since Akalabeth... im talking about the WoW way of doing quests, that keeps appearing IN EVERY SINGLE MMO.
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I got some interesting quotes here, first from decade85:
"Call me crazy but I'd like to get away from the dungeons altogether. I am all for grouping, but requiring a group to run certain areas or penalizing for having a group in others seems retarded. Scaling areas, regions, mob spawn rates, etc. I think could be a good idea."
I believe in WoW, mobs spawn faster in high populated areas and slower otherwise. In most games I've played, you always had those spots of elite mobs that required you to group. Though from my experience, players generally prefer instances to avoid having to compete for mobs or prevent kill stealing.
"Phasing areas/zones. I don't think this is a bad idea altogether. In fact, I think if players are having a noticable affect on the world around them... even if it's only their version, or vision of the world... then players feel more like a part of that world. I think most people like to feel like their a part of something that has an effect on the world... even if it's a virtual world."
That's very true, and brings an interesting concept to any MMORPGs. I can see this concept being applied to Theme Park-like games, how would you apply this concept on Sandbox-like games?
"Randomized Dungeon generators... "
I like this idea.
"I think the next generation of MMO's should get away from the end game. Make the journey getting there more fun and enjoyable. I would love it if I felt like I wasn't in a race to get to the end of the game to stay competitive with my fellow players, and could really enjoy the world around me."
I think the issue here comes from those games that were launched with a certain 'journey', then this 'journey' rots in place until the game shuts down. I think game companies should keep improving this 'journey' to prevent a game from being outdated too quick. It seems Blizzard understood it... 3 years too late with their whole revamp of Azeroth scheduled for Cataclysm.
"With the increase of games leaning towards PvP"
I hope 3rd generation games are not all PVP-oriented. Sure, PVP, PvPvE or RvR can be fun, but I think game companies should try to diversify their portfolio a bit more, instead of trying to hit the same genres over and over within a small time span... That also goes with sci-fi games versus fantastic or super-hero. How many sci-fi games are going to be released in the first half of 2010?
And then, a quote from garrett:
"NOT OVER MARKET THE CRAP OUT OF THEIR GAMES AND THEN COME UP SHORT. "
Ding Ding Ding! For the humanity's sake! A lot of games failed their launch because they were incomplete, and for that, I blame the project managers of these games. The software industry really lacks good project managers that are able to keep a realistic scope that their budget can cover. Instead, they try to cover as much features as possible to have a stupid wide audience, then their team is only able to achieve a huge pile of incomplete features. After their failed launch, those game studios are not able to meet their financial goal and are forced to cut back on their development, so begins a downward spiral, frustrating for both users and developers. And the sad part here, it seems the story repeats itself over, and over, and over...
We are talking about games here. If manuals were funny to read, noone would be playing games but study, have fun and be successful in life. A game would fail badly anytime with a mechanic like this (although there would be some who would do their homework for fame and elitism lol).
Me, I am just happy with the quest-based direction games seem to be taking lately. Mind numbing grind is being replaced by less mind numbing quest grind. The 3rd generation will start with Blizzard's next MMO and continue with the many games trying to clone it anyways xD
Yes that's my whole point. MMO's aren't games, they are virtual worlds.
But we're talking about studying fricking 20 pages of being an ENSIGN here, or a chief engineer or an assistant chief engineer. It's not 1000 pages of crap. The fun part would still do what comes later.
You talk about fun but i don't find fun in spamming quests. And as it has been said, Quests are boring mob farm and level grind disguised and made easier. 10 years ago nearly every game had a sturdy manual to read and it wasn't a problem for anyone, it was normal... the fact that you people don't wanna read 20 bloody pages goes to show how much games became matter for children who don't wanna read, they just wanna shoot schtuff. It's bad. And in this case you're preferring repetitive dumb kill 10 rats and bring me their testicles, rinse and repeat quests, stuff for fucking retards(no offence to retards) instead of knowledge, reading, culture. It's REALLY a horrible sign of immaturity... games are games, but who says games can't teach you stuff, and that games can't include some damn short reading before the actual thing?
I am against anything that's being repeated constantly and unaltered... and that's the quest system, that's being cloned ever since WoW, in every single game.
And yeah before someone comes up with the usual phrase "quests exist before WoW"(oh yeah you can tell ive been discussing this stuff for 10 years from this), i don't mean the "generic" concept of a quest, that, yeah, it's been there ever since Akalabeth... im talking about the WoW way of doing quests, that keeps appearing IN EVERY SINGLE MMO.
Studying 20 pages for every mastery, every alt and every game will become dull faster than grinding for a 1% of a level in future Lineage 3. Noone said quests are "great fun omg" the way they are now, but even in their current form they are still much more fun that the thing you are proposing imo. Games are fun factor first, all things after. And in some MMOs reading all the quests is much more than 20, not to say 100s of pages.
And last time I checked, noone plays MMORGS for knowledge, reading, culture.
1 + 1 = 2... Unless it CRITS!
I agree, this would be a HUGE step. More and more, single player games have been adding sandboxy and open world elements to their linear, story based games. Why shouldn't MMORPGs do the same?