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General: Player Perspectives: Every Man's Greed

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  • stevekr21stevekr21 Member Posts: 50

     IMO wow has gone to the dogs and with this new loot system, blizzard is surely letting everyone out there that still plays wow to either suck it up or leave the game, which alot  of people are just doing, leaving.

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane Member Posts: 2,776

    Wow reading this article brought back some memories for me.  I remember running some instances in WOW more than a few where we didn't have rules set up and some guy would ninja loot and even times when loot rules were set up and there was still some problem at the end.  It was one of the early factors that helped me determine I would not be a "raider".

    As far as mmo's I've probably been a quantity over quality type anyway so it's never been my goal to have the "best" but it's easy to see how we fall into the pitfalls of having this stuff just from upgrading a max level characters gear normally.

    My other big problem with "raiding" is often raid content is longer but not often any better than what is happening outside, I've just never felt anymore engaged at being in a raid than I have with a five man or lot's of solo content.

    I did like the first responders idea though of not changing the loot tables and just distributing loot to the players automatically without it being seen by everyone, and though I don't think the rate should increase drastically I think the loot drop rates should increase across the board.  We really shouldn't be expected to have to run these two and three hour encounters on the off chance someone might get something.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • CaleveiraCaleveira Member Posts: 556
    Originally posted by Nightbringe1


    While my preference is NBG the system does have a few flaws.
    The biggest is simply lack of honesty on the part of come players. This is notable in EQII where there is a NBG loot option that the group leader can set. You will always get someone that simply rolls greed on everything.
    While this can be very obvious when rolling on class specific upgrades, there is the much more insidious case of collectibles and master rank spells. People will roll NEED on them and then put them up for sale instead of adding them to their collections / scribbing them. There is no way to prove they are doing this, and they know it.
    I was one of the people a while back asking for certain enforcements being tacked onto the NBG option in EQII. That the NEED option is not available on items you already had and that when you did win these items via NEED it was autumatically collected / scribed.
    No set of developer enforced rules will be perfect, but if done correctly they can certainly help.



     

    THIS

    Good article Jamie, yes, this is an issue most of the playerbase needs to deal with, and yes it is greed ruining things. To me the solution, to this and other problems, is for developers to always asume that a feature which can be abused, will always be abused.

    Just to make things clear...
    I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.

  • Draco91Draco91 Member Posts: 134
    Originally posted by Harabeck


    Why not just have loot not drop for the group as a whole? Leave the loot tables exactly as they are, just separate the players loot from each other. Each mob that dies has a chance of dropping something for me, but if it does, no one else can even see it, and they each get their own loot from the mob.

    We have a winner! Seriously, this would work so well. No fighting, same chance of drop... it just plain works. It needs to be implemented, at very least as a selectable option.

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    The best way to deal with trolls:
    http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]

  • YohanuYohanu Member UncommonPosts: 214

     Remove these ridiculous systems and let the player who's fastest get the stuff (obviously clans would not cheat eachother). That's why i loved UO's inventory system. Having to find the item in a backpack and then drag/drop into your own inventory quickly turned out to be one of the single most entertaining ways to gather loot ever.

  • JamkullJamkull Member UncommonPosts: 214

     This is why the loot system in Asheron's Call  is the best ever, plus with tinkering you are able to customize items the way you want.

  • wickymageewickymagee Member UncommonPosts: 44
    Originally posted by Yohanu


     Remove these ridiculous systems and let the player who's fastest get the stuff (obviously clans would not cheat eachother). That's why i loved UO's inventory system. Having to find the item in a backpack and then drag/drop into your own inventory quickly turned out to be one of the single most entertaining ways to gather loot ever.



     

    You're living in crazy-land if you think anyone would play that game after a month...  I've played several mmos in my time and each system has it's ups and downs.  EQ had "free for all" looting and invariably some jerk would loot a mob and drop group in the middle of a fight causing a wipe or a train to the zone.  WoW has a gear system based on looting, and while I don't think the loot system is the problem there the gear situation would be greatly improved by adding items as quest rewards, so your three hour raid isn't a total waste and people have incentive to do it over and over to get the full set of armor.  LOTRO does something simlar to this (though admitedly the best gear in the game is from raiding).  Give players a guarantee to get somtething useful for his time and it improves the play greatly.  Just my two cents.

  • wrtiiiwrtiii Member UncommonPosts: 5
    Originally posted by wickymagee

    Originally posted by Yohanu


     Remove these ridiculous systems and let the player who's fastest get the stuff (obviously clans would not cheat eachother). That's why i loved UO's inventory system. Having to find the item in a backpack and then drag/drop into your own inventory quickly turned out to be one of the single most entertaining ways to gather loot ever.



     

    You're living in crazy-land if you think anyone would play that game after a month...  I've played several mmos in my time and each system has it's ups and downs.  EQ had "free for all" looting and invariably some jerk would loot a mob and drop group in the middle of a fight causing a wipe or a train to the zone.  WoW has a gear system based on looting, and while I don't think the loot system is the problem there the gear situation would be greatly improved by adding items as quest rewards, so your three hour raid isn't a total waste and people have incentive to do it over and over to get the full set of armor.  LOTRO does something simlar to this (though admitedly the best gear in the game is from raiding).  Give players a guarantee to get somtething useful for his time and it improves the play greatly.  Just my two cents.

     

     

    < Mod edit > (Gaius Marius)

     

  • YohanuYohanu Member UncommonPosts: 214
    Originally posted by wickymagee

    Originally posted by Yohanu


     Remove these ridiculous systems and let the player who's fastest get the stuff (obviously clans would not cheat eachother). That's why i loved UO's inventory system. Having to find the item in a backpack and then drag/drop into your own inventory quickly turned out to be one of the single most entertaining ways to gather loot ever.



     

    You're living in crazy-land if you think anyone would play that game after a month...  I've played several mmos in my time and each system has it's ups and downs.  EQ had "free for all" looting and invariably some jerk would loot a mob and drop group in the middle of a fight causing a wipe or a train to the zone.  WoW has a gear system based on looting, and while I don't think the loot system is the problem there the gear situation would be greatly improved by adding items as quest rewards, so your three hour raid isn't a total waste and people have incentive to do it over and over to get the full set of armor.  LOTRO does something simlar to this (though admitedly the best gear in the game is from raiding).  Give players a guarantee to get somtething useful for his time and it improves the play greatly.  Just my two cents.

    I don't play an mmo to be equal to everyone else like some kind of communism. I want challenges and luck to play a big part of my gameplay experience. If there's no endgame-race you wouldn't be as annoyed from these things. Also, UO didn't work based on "zones" so this was never a problem at all. 

    Also: Doing something over and over again isn't fun. It's a time-sink to make you play for a longer period of time, thus making the developers more money.

    On a sidenote: MMORPG's thesedays are way too arcade-ish. It's like a never-ending arcade-competition instead of a real role playing game.

  • barasawabarasawa Member UncommonPosts: 591

    Nobody cares about the vendor sale price, they want it for auctioning, or sometimes disenchanting, so a previous posters suggestion that they reduce/remove the vendor sale price if you need hogged it wouldn't work.

     

    As to the new method for pugs, I don't really have a problem with it, it does seem to take care of the infamous, "I know I'm a hunter, but I need that plate mail of uberness, I have to auction it so I can afford my epic mount....".

    (Replace class and item with anything that can't be used together.)

     

    Of course, they could just force everything to go to auction, with the resulting gold being split up amongst the group members and force them to go buy from the auction house if they want something....  (Yeah, I agree, that would suck, but it would be just as fair.)

     

    Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...

  • KhaunsharKhaunshar Member UncommonPosts: 349

    The core problem is actually that even in WoW, there is such a thing as "too much loot".

    If you, as some have suggested, make it so everyone gets their own droptable... you have to account for the fact that suddenly, not just one item, but six , five or eight, depending on group size, enter the world.

    Imagine you killed Ivar in Utgarde Keep, and your group didnt get just one axe.... everyone would get one.

    You would have to redesign loot tables a LOT, adding the chance that nothing drops for an individual player. Or you just have people blasting through the game at an insane speed, making your endgame hold even less water.

    Does anyone here think people play for weeks if they get all the loot they want in 2, maybe 3 runs? No company, not even Blizzard, could satisfy the hunger for new content that creates.

    See, basically completing an instance in WoW is not worth one epic. Its worth 1/6 of an epic, and the lucky ones get it first, the less lucky ones later. The idea was never that you get your epic because you managed to complete a ridiculously easy and short instance ONCE. The idea is that you get a CHANCE at the item.

    So, if everyone gets their own loot on the boss, unless you make a huuuuge number of item slots to be filled, or you drop items in tiny increments which is less fulfilling than getting an item you can equip right away, you have to include "blanks" in your loot.

    And then, it becomes akin to the system Aion uses right now, where often a Boss has... nothing. How much fun, do you think, is it for the average player to see his party members find their epics, blues or whatnot, while they get ... nothing? Motivation-wise, that is far worse than shared boss loot.

    The problem is, you cannot make an online game where players interact, and rule out every way players can negatively affect each other. If people want to act like jerks, they ll find ways to do so, and if you try to prevent them, you have to instate a ton of rules which will restrict the game immensly, taking away from the experience in large chunks.

    The problem lies, in part, with the "me first, loot first" ego-based perspective WoW has groomed. The game is set up in a way to bring the worst out of people, because its rewarded and encouraged. Blizzard is perfectly aware of that, and it plays to that audience because that audience is the money. Protected by Internet anonymity, plenty of services (for cash) to get a blank slate and never be confronted with your misdeeds, people will behave like jerks. Its human nature, and its what a lot of these people pay for.

  • mCalvertmCalvert Member CommonPosts: 1,283

    Im glad I never played WoW. I cant beleive they actually have a game mechanic to enforce fairness. The best system is free for all, as in EVE.

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,518

    I do master loot and decide who gets what which is usualy decided at the end of the instance on rolls. DE'er gets all shardables and shards are decide amongst rolls.

     

    System does need improvement. I think that if you already have it you can only win it with greed. Or only you can see the loot which would change the DKP system. I think that the rules up already made by the players are good enough and of course we all could go through and argue what the flaws are for each system. DKP system is alright if it's reset each month / week.

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  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by wrtiii


    Easy Solution.
     
    Man Up. Stop playing a weak game like WoW.
     
    And find yourself something Full Loot, PvP.
     
    Someone takes the loot you wanted, you can kill them and take it back... If you can..
     
     



     

    Ah killing people = man up.  How "man" you are.

  • ZharreZharre Member UncommonPosts: 80

    I've been playing DDO for a little while (since a couple of months prior to it going F2P), and I really like their loot system there.

    Gear only drops in chests. When you click on/open the chest, any items that would appear for you then appear within it (you have to physically click the chest for your items to be spawned into it). You can then loot the items, or, assign the loot rights to any of them to some other group member, even if the item is Bind on Acquire, since Binding doesn't happen until an item is removed from the chest.

    I've done quite a few PUG groups and raids and, so far, the looting has been without drama. If an item drops for a player that really wants it, they have it free and clear, it was already assigned to them.  Items that spawn for a player who doesn't want it, or even some players who do spawn an item they want but are willing to put it up for the whole group, get put up for a random roll. Winner gets the item assigned to them.

    I think the system works really well.

  • ZodanZodan Member Posts: 564

    Worst loot system so far I have seen in a new mmo:

    - Aion as everyone can roll for loot and there is only option for roll and cancel and you can roll on items even if you can't use them

     

    Best

    - DDO as everyone gets loot and no one is left out

     

    Honorable mentions

    - WAR pvp looting is automatic and there is a system where you can set stuff to roll automatically

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,518

    I'm against the full loot system eg: DFO as well as a trivial death system eg: WoW, EQ2. Something in between would be nice as long as the penalty is not over kill like eg: Tibia has excessive xp loss. But thats for a death system thread discussion.

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  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945
    Originally posted by Kyleran 
    But darkness fell over the realm, and the spectre of WOW threw its long shadow over the game.  Pretty soon, dropped loot become more valuable than crafted, at first only from special encounters such as Dragon raids, but after TOA dropped loot became the norm as the superior way to gear and crafted items were added only to maximize your stats in a particular area.
    The end of an era it appears, but it is a system I would prefer to see employed again.
     

    Drop loot was always better than crafted loot in Everquest.   It was always a pleasure to see a rogue win golden efreeti boots.

     

    I'm not a big fan of crafted gear competing with dropped items in terms of quality.  Nothing trivializes a games content like the ability to go to the auction house and gear up to maximum potential.  I just don't think reducing character advancement to grinding gold is a good system.  Some my enjoy it, but I prefer to venture out and earn my progression through adventuring. 

    I don't understand why developers continue to make crafting and adventuring compete for the same item slots.  Either make them work together or make them affect separate areas. 

     

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945
    Originally posted by Harabeck


    Why not just have loot not drop for the group as a whole? Leave the loot tables exactly as they are, just separate the players loot from each other. Each mob that dies has a chance of dropping something for me, but if it does, no one else can even see it, and they each get their own loot from the mob.

     

    Contrary to the whining that goes on here, not everyone in wow is a 12 year loot whore out to destroy the entire genre of gaming. I see people pass on loot to pug members all the time and never see any drama over loot.  Overall I have found every pug I play with to be reasonable and drama free.  

     Personally I would rather have the option to pass on something I am not going to use if someone else can use it.  Even if it is leather and they are a plate class.  It isn't like people are going to make a fortune by rolling need on bind on pickup items that sell for 4 gold. 

     

     

    @Everyone else.

    The reason for the revised loot system is that the new dungeon LFG system is cross server.  The typical social norms and ettiquettes are going to vary from server to server.  Yes there will be some people who would enjoy looting everything wihtout fear of their name getting a bad reputation since they are not playing with people from their community.

    There is nothing wrong with going into a dungeon with a clear set of loot rules.  The funny thing is that if blizzard didn't do this and the loot system was being abused, I bet we would see many of the same names complaining that blizzard was stupid for not addressing this issue before releasing the new dungeon system, but that is just a hunch.

     

     

     

  • KhurryFlavKhurryFlav Member Posts: 16
    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by Harabeck


    Why not just have loot not drop for the group as a whole? Leave the loot tables exactly as they are, just separate the players loot from each other. Each mob that dies has a chance of dropping something for me, but if it does, no one else can even see it, and they each get their own loot from the mob.

     

    Contrary to the whining that goes on here, not everyone in wow is a 12 year loot whore out to destroy the entire genre of gaming. I see people pass on loot to pug members all the time and never see any drama over loot.  Overall I have found every pug I play with to be reasonable and drama free.  

     Personally I would rather have the option to pass on something I am not going to use if someone else can use it.  Even if it is leather and they are a plate class.  It isn't like people are going to make a fortune by rolling need on bind on pickup items that sell for 4 gold. 

     

     

    @Everyone else.

    The reason for the revised loot system is that the new dungeon LFG system is cross server.  The typical social norms and ettiquettes are going to vary from server to server.  Yes there will be some people who would enjoy looting everything wihtout fear of their name getting a bad reputation since they are not playing with people from their community.

    There is nothing wrong with going into a dungeon with a clear set of loot rules.  The funny thing is that if blizzard didn't do this and the loot system was being abused, I bet we would see many of the same names complaining that blizzard was stupid for not addressing this issue before releasing the new dungeon system, but that is just a hunch.

     

     

     



     

    You are right, many of us are quite responsible when it comes to looting; however, I have been the victim of a PUG member screwing me out of gear that I could have really used and their class could not use at all. Worse yet, they would not even trade me now that you can do that. Some people are just going to be a*holes about any system no matter what. It is a shame a few ruin it for all, but that is what has happened.

  • shamus252shamus252 Member UncommonPosts: 226

    Who care of Wow's player base is upset.

    Sic semper tyrannis "Democracy broke down, not when the Union
    ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms."

  • kyte317kyte317 Member Posts: 13
    Originally posted by wrtiii


    Easy Solution.
     
    Man Up. Stop playing a weak game like WoW.
     
    And find yourself something Full Loot, PvP.
     
    Someone takes the loot you wanted, you can kill them and take it back... If you can..
     
     

    And to the people who don't want to play a PvP game?

    I'm not sure what the majority of current mmo players think, but I have a major problem with pvp.

    If I'm going to kill someone I'm not going to base it on a dice roll and potential line of sight and gear difference since some twit decided it would be better to ninja loot all the gear, or couldn't hold his own in a dungeon/arena/whatever the game does to give you gear.

    Instead I'd rather play a FPS to kill another player, mmo's seem to base everything on mathematics, (rolls, attacks, min/maxing gear and getting people)



    So I say to you, man up and stop playing a weak pvp genre like an mmo, but that stil doesn't solve the problem of loot distribution

  • dealakadealaka Member UncommonPosts: 21

    Loot, is by itself the definition of 'Reward' in 'Risk versus reward'. I think the reason so many players all hunger for that same bone are because of a few distinct reasons not covered here.

    First and foremost is luck in general. I've played a lot of MMOs, and generally my luck tends to be really bad. Doesn't matter the class, or other details. My luck is usually 1 good drop per three months of actual game play. I know many others who feel the same way. Yet there are always people who nearly every chest pull something terrific. In this example, a player who tries for a 'cool looking, or useful item' that the developers have taunted us with is just out of reach. Now let's put a lucky character into this party. On the very first chest they've gotten what that players has been working really hard for. Is it fair? Probably not, but as you said, perhaps there's a need before greed mentality. What of the player who got lucky? Here's the problem.

    Someone will get rich, often times for very little work, or by using the hard work of others, and someone else is going home mad, doing their best to stay in positive cash flow for trying once again.

    Secondly is the the very principal of 'Risk versus reward' used by developers. It seems to be the magic catch phrase everyone uses, even if they don't understand what it means. The idea is fairly simple; X enemies at Y difficulty have Z chance of dropping 'Uber' item. This formula is often rocket-science because the percentage change of getting said loot is usually roughly 5% (not compounded by the fact someone may be unlucky). The problem is honestly, developers don't understand risk versus reward. Time, materials, dealing with individuals who don't know how to play are all risk. I like playing what I like playing. However if I have to do quest X,Y,Z, Plz, Stop, Now...just to get a chance at loot, I'm not only annoyed, but frustrated.  The risk for finding groups to do the content is already very high (especially in servers with lower populations). They often take a lot of resource for materials to figure out how to effectively do a quest. That cost isn't covered by anything. Healers, casters (especially those who rely on materials) end up losing more then a warrior most often.

    Lastly is why is there loot. Loot exists to make players more effective players in a game. A piece of loot can boost the attributes or stats of a character significantly. At certain levels, characters are 'expected' to have particular loot to keep up. If they don't, they might get passed over for groups. Players whom repeatedly are passed over begin to grow frustrated. An unlucky character might spend ten times more time meeting minimal requirements then a lucky character does.

    Why? It's because monsters are always overpowered compared to players. Developers can make whatever excuses they want about poor AI, but most MMOs have two systems. One for players and one for monsters. You don't have games where a decently powerful player is fighting tons of weak enemies. Yet Helmsdeep (in the movie) is still popular, so too is Resident Evil.

    So how do you fix the problem with loot? It's honestly not that hard.

    1.) For completing content allow players 'reward points' which they can exchange for modifications they can add to existing armor or 'craft' for new armor. DDO did this pretty good (besides the drop rates being horrible). Players could 'craft' raid loot they wanted based on ingredients. Players then spend the 'reward points' on modifications or rewards available from markets or npcs for their hard work.

    2.) Allow players who want random loot to get random loot. Rather then force it on everyone, allow the option for players to recieve 'reward points' or 'chest spawned' loot. Everyone picks the way that suits their luck and hard work. Players who gamble may have better chances, but it's just that, a gamble. Players can work hard to get that 1 thing they want and not feel cheated.

    3.) Allow crafting and de-assembling of existing loot. Players might find armor that is attractive but has horrible stats. They can remove the stats to make their own using existing armor mods. This is very similiar of Guild Wars, but it can be done even better.

    4.) [Optional] MMOs are often times defined by the skins they have. Weapons with horrible skins are not as popular as those that look really cool. A cool sword can cause everyone to seek it. Thus the item is worth millions in virtual funds. Someone who gets them repeatedly ruins the market for everything else. They have unlimited funds, they can buy whatever they want at whatever the price. Allow players to craft 'new' skins based on basic templates. This means that new designs are always being pushed, and the economy remains competitive. Yes I know this aspect is difficult, but it is something worthwhile.

    Loot, money, greed are not by themselves evil. It is the actions that come from their pursuit. Developers who use a carrot and stick approach to their loot are showing that they don't care about players. Marketing has taken control of the company and determined 'how fast it takes to get good'. My message ends up being this;

    Developers, your players want to have fun. If someone is unable to sit down and play for an hour, have fun, and get SOMETHING fun or to improve their profit within that hour, then something is wrong. Play your own game, how long did it take you to get that item? Did you calculate unlucky characters chances? Did you balance it versus dungeon costs? Or did you just spend 2 hours to make a cool item, threw it in a loot table with no cares what so ever. Throwing players a bone is not helpful or commendable, it is the mark of an inferior GM and Developer.

  • anjealous82anjealous82 Member UncommonPosts: 123

    Id have to argee with Harabeck idea. That just sounds a lot better than everyone vieing for the same loot. Leaving the person who really needed it screw over. And to the dude who said they prefer game with craftable item. That deal is almost dead in the water. It's becaues of the simple fact that crafted items have there limits to what bonuses, damage and effects they give. WOW still has plenty of flaws to adress and I see no where in the near future Blizzard fixig them.. But atleast they are adressig this flaw. Even though this idea still has its drawbacks.

  • Silverthorn8Silverthorn8 Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Almost all of the pug's I have joined recently 3-4 out of the 5 players in the heroic dungeon have outgeared the place, loot was almost irrelevant.

    People do these dungeons now mainly for the emblems, a few drops from toc 5 man dungeon (weapons mainly) are really the only items which are likely to leave 1 or 2 people upset. Looking at the loot list for the upcoming Icecrown 5 man dungeons there is going to be some huge upgrades for casual players (maybe some sidegrades for raiders as well).

    I can see why the forced need before greed preset is being enforced. That said, I may be more inclined to start a group from my own realm, at least I know a fair few people on the pug circuit there.

    I'm shuddering to think about what calibre of asswipe I'm going to encounter soon :/

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