Popularity vs. Genre Conventions.

Uccisore · October 2009

Suppose you liked to play football video games. Video games about football.

Suppose, then, there was this one football game that came out, that introduced rocket launchers, land mines, and other explosives to the field.

It's the most popular foot ball game ever.

Suppose further, that every new football game that comes out, includes things like missiles, helicopter gunships, aliens, etc. etc., because they all want to make the money the popular one did/does.

Now. What does the old school foot ball game player say, if he doesn't like this change?

If he says these aren't 'real' football games, he's told that it's all subjective, and that he's outvoted by the popularity of the new kind. The new kind is real.

If he says they aren't fun, then he's reminded that 11 million people disagree.

If he says he wants the New football game everybody is talking about to include more football, and less biological warfare, he's told he's stupid, because nobody wants to run down the field with a ball in a football game anymore, and that game designers would be foolish to cater to his niche interests when they aren't going to make the $$$.

So, is the frustrated gamer just all done? He has to concede that a good football game is one with sharks + lasers? Or, does he reach a point where he can say, 'get the hell out of my genre, and go play sci-fi actions games if you want lasers'?

rothbard · October 2009

I can understand the frustration of the "old school" football gamer. However, bitching, whining and yelling "get out of my genre" has no real payoff except to vent frustration. He can either play old football games, stop playing 'football' games, or (IMHO the best option) beginning developing his own football game.

nAAtimus · October 2009

Use the internet to find like-minded old school football fans to draw support for a "classic" football game.

Caleveira · October 2009

Feeling entitlement over how a game should be called its really not a healthy feeling. You yourself provided what is probably the best example. For upwards of 90% of the people in the world (including english speakers) football is not used to describe a game where a player will run down a field holding a ball in his hands. You can argue with Americans all you want about how real football is older than their take on the game, about how it was named so in England and so on... At the end of the day, its just easier to say "soccer" to refer to actual football than to argue with people that refuse to even give their own country its own name...

What is important is that the terms we use are easy to understand. In your example yes, im sure it would be annoying to call an action game a "football" game, but since already youre on the wrong side of the issue here, it wont hurt you to ask the guy at the store for a football game if one day youre feeling youd like to play with choppers and lasers.

Yes, i do understand you really were refering to content and were trying to make some esoteric point about MMORPGs loosing whatever you think their direction should be.

Reklaw · October 2009

He should not/never reach the point to say "get the hell out of my genre" the old football player should know there can be room for both new and old, the old also needs to understand that times have changed. But that doesn't mean the old can't be made new, it most certainly can be made new and have traditional gameplay, just better outfits for it's players as shoes, shirts, shorts, overall management of the team can be much enhanged compared to the old, like finding the right sponser for your club, getting new locations to even build football fields, more choices as to where in the world you want to play.

Keep in mind I am that "old football player" but more the one I described as I see room for both......

Astralglide · October 2009

Originally posted by Caleveira

Feeling entitlement over how a game should be called its really not a healthy feeling. You yourself provided what is probably the best example. For upwards of 90% of the people in the world (including english speakers) football is not used to describe a game where a player will run down a field holding a ball in his hands. You can argue with Americans all you want about how real football is older than their take on the game, about how it was named so in England and so on... At the end of the day, its just easier to say "soccer" to refer to actual football than to argue with people that refuse to even give their own country its own name...
What is important is that the terms we use are easy to understand. In your example yes, im sure it would be annoying to call an action game a "football" game, but since already youre on the wrong side of the issue here, it wont hurt you to ask the guy at the store for a football game if one day youre feeling youd like to play with choppers and lasers.
Yes, i do understand you really were refering to content and were trying to make some esoteric point about MMORPGs loosing whatever you think their direction should be.

I understand your frustration. I miss having a good old fashioned RPG like Dragon Warrior or FF 1,2, or 3. (Japanese, not US). But, much like the RPG genre of old, MMO's are changing to fit the needs of an every growing population of new gamers who like a lot of flash. For instance, WoW has gotten a lot easier, but they have managed to add so much content that can keep veteran and hard-core gamers happy. WoW still is very different today than it was 5 years ago. There will be classic MMO's again, but they will have limited populations. There really needs to be a game for the classic fans (maybe Ryzom?) but all the classic MMO fans are dispersed among several games with no real home to call their own

Torik · October 2009

Originally posted by Uccisore
So, is the frustrated gamer just all done? He has to concede that a good football game is one with sharks + lasers? Or, does he reach a point where he can say, 'get the hell out of my genre, and go play sci-fi actions games if you want lasers'?

He can go and say 'get the hell out of my genre' anytime he wants. The other people can then go right ahead, ignore him and go on playing the version of football that they enjoy.

There is no inherent right for a game to stay the way it 'has always been'. An 'old-timer' does not get extra rights because 'he was there first'. Just because someone saw the original 'I love Lucy' on TV does not mean that he/she has more right to influence what is on TV then I do even though I was not even alive back then.

heremypet · October 2009

I would just keep spamming in their faces what real FOOTBALL is, kinda like this guy..

www.youtube.com/watch

nariusseldon · October 2009

Originally posted by Uccisore

Suppose you liked to play football video games. Video games about football.

Suppose, then, there was this one football game that came out, that introduced rocket launchers, land mines, and other explosives to the field.

It's the most popular foot ball game ever.
Suppose further, that every new football game that comes out, includes things like missiles, helicopter gunships, aliens, etc. etc., because they all want to make the money the popular one did/does.

Now. What does the old school foot ball game player say, if he doesn't like this change?
If he says these aren't 'real' football games, he's told that it's all subjective, and that he's outvoted by the popularity of the new kind. The new kind is real.
If he says they aren't fun, then he's reminded that 11 million people disagree.
If he says he wants the New football game everybody is talking about to include more football, and less biological warfare, he's told he's stupid, because nobody wants to run down the field with a ball in a football game anymore, and that game designers would be foolish to cater to his niche interests when they aren't going to make the $$$.
So, is the frustrated gamer just all done? He has to concede that a good football game is one with sharks + lasers? Or, does he reach a point where he can say, 'get the hell out of my genre, and go play sci-fi actions games if you want lasers'?

He should just quit his "football" games and find something else to do. It is just a game. Oh, it is a free world, and he can say whatever he wants. But the other 11M people are also free to call him crazy.

Lexin · October 2009

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and instead of just killing something to please more people they should still make the original football game. But the only problem with the newer version of the game is they always trash talk the players of the original game and this is where the problem is, yes I said everyone is entitled to their opinions but to trash talk someone over the fact they liked the way the game was before it was changed is just a kick in the face. Seriously those people who are playing the original paved the way so you could have this other one. Gaming is changing and sadly it's not looking the good way.

Ruyn · October 2009

I understand and agree with OP's point. The genre certainly has suffered the past few years. The good news is that it looks like a few independents are picking up the proverbial ball. Support these companies and maybe a AAA company will take notice and realize a different model can succeed and try to emulate it.

Torik · October 2009

Originally posted by Lexin

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and instead of just killing something to please more people they should still make the original football game. But the only problem with the newer version of the game is they always trash talk the players of the original game and this is where the problem is, yes I said everyone is entitled to their opinions but to trash talk someone over the fact they liked the way the game was before it was changed is just a kick in the face. Seriously those people who are playing the original paved the way so you could have this other one. Gaming is changing and sadly it's not looking the good way.

In turn the situation is not helped by the fact that the 'old-timers' feel like they are superior to the people liking the new version of the game and do not consider them 'true gamers'. The old-timers feel that the world owes them something for all their 'trailblazing' and feel offended when new players don't feel like being second-class citizens and instead want to 'blaze their own trails'

Lexin · October 2009

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Lexin

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and instead of just killing something to please more people they should still make the original football game. But the only problem with the newer version of the game is they always trash talk the players of the original game and this is where the problem is, yes I said everyone is entitled to their opinions but to trash talk someone over the fact they liked the way the game was before it was changed is just a kick in the face. Seriously those people who are playing the original paved the way so you could have this other one. Gaming is changing and sadly it's not looking the good way.

In turn the situation is not helped by the fact that the 'old-timers' feel like they are superior to the people liking the new version of the game and do not consider them 'true gamers'. The old-timers feel that the world owes them something for all their 'trailblazing' and feel offended when new players don't feel like being second-class citizens and instead want to 'blaze their own trails'

But the fact is the new gamers would not be here if it wasn't for the old gamers that's the whole point. Imagine the 80's and early 90's people decided not to buy into video games we would not be here discussing about this right now. The older gamers made gaming what it is today by buying games making them a known name and to **** on them is not right.

Goatgod76 · October 2009

Originally posted by Uccisore

Suppose you liked to play football video games. Video games about football.

Suppose, then, there was this one football game that came out, that introduced rocket launchers, land mines, and other explosives to the field.

It's the most popular foot ball game ever.
Suppose further, that every new football game that comes out, includes things like missiles, helicopter gunships, aliens, etc. etc., because they all want to make the money the popular one did/does.

Now. What does the old school foot ball game player say, if he doesn't like this change?
If he says these aren't 'real' football games, he's told that it's all subjective, and that he's outvoted by the popularity of the new kind. The new kind is real.
If he says they aren't fun, then he's reminded that 11 million people disagree.
If he says he wants the New football game everybody is talking about to include more football, and less biological warfare, he's told he's stupid, because nobody wants to run down the field with a ball in a football game anymore, and that game designers would be foolish to cater to his niche interests when they aren't going to make the $$$.
So, is the frustrated gamer just all done? He has to concede that a good football game is one with sharks + lasers? Or, does he reach a point where he can say, 'get the hell out of my genre, and go play sci-fi actions games if you want lasers'?

LOL. I wonder what THIS could be based on.

I love you Uccisore.

Goatgod76 · October 2009

Originally posted by nAAtimus

Use the internet to find like-minded old school football fans to draw support for a "classic" football game.

This could be a viable option. We should start a webpage Uccisore.

Uccisore · October 2009

Originally posted by Caleveira

Feeling entitlement over how a game should be called its really not a healthy feeling. You yourself provided what is probably the best example. For upwards of 90% of the people in the world (including english speakers) football is not used to describe a game where a player will run down a field holding a ball in his hands. You can argue with Americans all you want about how real football is older than their take on the game, about how it was named so in England and so on... At the end of the day, its just easier to say "soccer" to refer to actual football than to argue with people that refuse to even give their own country its own name...
What is important is that the terms we use are easy to understand. In your example yes, im sure it would be annoying to call an action game a "football" game, but since already youre on the wrong side of the issue here, it wont hurt you to ask the guy at the store for a football game if one day youre feeling youd like to play with choppers and lasers.
Yes, i do understand you really were refering to content and were trying to make some esoteric point about MMORPGs loosing whatever you think their direction should be.

That's kind of intentional, point being there's big disagreements about what counts as football, and room for many different interpretations of the word 'football'....

...while agreeing that it doesn't include lasers and zombies.

See how you can have room for a word (genre) to have a broad meaning, without totally opening it up to bullshit interpretations?

Anyway, back on task- the sense of entitlement isn't primarily what I'm driving at. The thread title is Popularity vs. Genre Conventions. I'm responding to the idea that the old-school gamer should be thankful that the new, casual games have brought in so many new players. My implied point is that they HAVEN'T brought in new players, because they aren't playing the game the old-school player wants to play. From his perspective, there are less players, if anything. Not that the old school player is entitled to get his way, just that, he has little to be thankful for. If the person in my example was told "You should be grateful that so many people are playing football games now!" he'd just say "Pfft", because as far as he's concerned, those aren't football games.

Neanderthal · October 2009

Originally posted by Caleveira

For upwards of 90% of the people in the world (including english speakers) football is not used to describe a game where a player will run down a field holding a ball in his hands. You can argue with Americans all you want about how real football is older than their take on the game, about how it was named so in England and so on... At the end of the day, its just easier to say "soccer" to refer to actual football than to argue with people that refuse to even give their own country its own name...

Silly foreigners, you guys can't even get your weights and measures right. A liter? What the hell is a liter? Isn't a litter what you call a bunch of newborn puppies? Come on guys, a litter is for puppies, a gallon..a GALLON...is for liquids.

Geez....

Goatgod76 · October 2009

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Lexin

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and instead of just killing something to please more people they should still make the original football game. But the only problem with the newer version of the game is they always trash talk the players of the original game and this is where the problem is, yes I said everyone is entitled to their opinions but to trash talk someone over the fact they liked the way the game was before it was changed is just a kick in the face. Seriously those people who are playing the original paved the way so you could have this other one. Gaming is changing and sadly it's not looking the good way.

In turn the situation is not helped by the fact that the 'old-timers' feel like they are superior to the people liking the new version of the game and do not consider them 'true gamers'. The old-timers feel that the world owes them something for all their 'trailblazing' and feel offended when new players don't feel like being second-class citizens and instead want to 'blaze their own trails'

No one is saying the new players can't have their games. If the new players love instant gratification and easy GPS guided MMO's, have at it.

I know I am personally just wondering why the old school players such as myself can't have at least ONE MMO like the original's that have challenge, etc that is simply polished up better than when they first released for us in the 90's.

If anyone is feeling superior, it seems to be the new players more than anything. The old schoolers (The minority now) are only asking for one in a sea of MANY new age MMO's. But we get fragged at every post for it with the same tired excuses and responses...hence, frustration rears it's ugly head eventually.

Wait until it's YOUR generation of players getting shoved towards the end of the cliff, then you will understand. Only too late.

jdnewell · October 2009

I am closing in on 40 years old pretty quick and have been gaming for most of those years.

To me games are just games. If the new football game with sharks and lasers comes out and I find it fun, then I play it, if not then I dont.

Would I prefer the old school football game? Probably.

But the gaming companies are in it to make money, not cater to me and my preferences. If I wanted an old school football game bad enuff I might just get off my ass and learn how to make one. Since I dont wanna do that then i will just continue to spend my time and money on games I actually do enjoy and not worry about what everyone else is playing.

Just my 2cp

And since it seems to me MMO's are the subject the I would say go back and play the old school ones, as far as I know most of em have servers up and running. If you like them so much then they are still there waiting on you.

Torik · October 2009

Originally posted by Goatgod76
No one is saying the new players can't have their games. If the new players love instant gratification and easy GPS guided MMO's, have at it.
See, here is that superiority complex again. If you insist on putting down what the other group likes then you are not going to get much sympthy from them.
I know I am personally just wondering why the old school players such as myself can't have at least ONE MMO like the original's that have challenge, etc that is simply polished up better than when they first released for us in the 90's.
If anyone is feeling superior, it seems to be the new players more than anything. The old schoolers (The minority now) are only asking for one in a sea of MANY new age MMO's. But we get fragged at every post for it with the same tired excuses and responses...hence, frustration rears it's ugly head eventually.
If someone keeps belittling you and what you like but the facts are actually in your favour you naturally feel superior when you can prove those insulting you wrong.
Wait until it's YOUR generation of players getting shoved towards the end of the cliff, then you will understand. Only too late.

Funny enough, 'our generation' is already starting to feel that way. All the new MMORPGs that are coming out are failing to deliver us a better experience than WoW already did. The old schoolers are often asking for 'just one new game that plays the way we like'. The newer players are also asking for the same thing except they want that 'just one new game' to be on their terms. This is why every new release is looked up like it is the 'second comming' by both groups.

Caleveira · October 2009

We could go on and on about this...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/251916/?tab=featured

nariusseldon · October 2009

Originally posted by Lexin

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Lexin

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and instead of just killing something to please more people they should still make the original football game. But the only problem with the newer version of the game is they always trash talk the players of the original game and this is where the problem is, yes I said everyone is entitled to their opinions but to trash talk someone over the fact they liked the way the game was before it was changed is just a kick in the face. Seriously those people who are playing the original paved the way so you could have this other one. Gaming is changing and sadly it's not looking the good way.

In turn the situation is not helped by the fact that the 'old-timers' feel like they are superior to the people liking the new version of the game and do not consider them 'true gamers'. The old-timers feel that the world owes them something for all their 'trailblazing' and feel offended when new players don't feel like being second-class citizens and instead want to 'blaze their own trails'

But the fact is the new gamers would not be here if it wasn't for the old gamers that's the whole point. Imagine the 80's and early 90's people decided not to buy into video games we would not be here discussing about this right now. The older gamers made gaming what it is today by buying games making them a known name and to **** on them is not right.

So? I won't be here if not for my distant ancestors too. Do you see me praying to them for MMO guidance?

nariusseldon · October 2009

Originally posted by jdnewell

I am closing in on 40 years old pretty quick and have been gaming for most of those years.
To me games are just games. If the new football game with sharks and lasers comes out and I find it fun, then I play it, if not then I dont.
Would I prefer the old school football game? Probably.
But the gaming companies are in it to make money, not cater to me and my preferences. If I wanted an old school football game bad enuff I might just get off my ass and learn how to make one. Since I dont wanna do that then i will just continue to spend my time and money on games I actually do enjoy and not worry about what everyone else is playing.

Just my 2cp
And since it seems to me MMO's are the subject the I would say go back and play the old school ones, as far as I know most of em have servers up and running. If you like them so much then they are still there waiting on you.

This is the sanest way of looking at it. I already passed 40 and i have exactly the same perspective. It is the same with games, & with movies & books. Just sample what is out there, and see if you will have fun with it.

There are people who cry bloody murder too because they change Starbuck to a girl in the new (or not so new) Battlestar Galactica. Personally i just watch it like another show and have fun.

Caleveira · October 2009

Originally posted by Neanderthal

Originally posted by Caleveira

For upwards of 90% of the people in the world (including english speakers) football is not used to describe a game where a player will run down a field holding a ball in his hands. You can argue with Americans all you want about how real football is older than their take on the game, about how it was named so in England and so on... At the end of the day, its just easier to say "soccer" to refer to actual football than to argue with people that refuse to even give their own country its own name...

Silly foreigners, you guys can't even get your weights and measures right. A liter? What the hell is a liter? Isn't a litter what you call a bunch of newborn puppies? Come on guys, a litter is for puppies, a gallon..a GALLON...is for liquids.

Geez....

What is one litre? Guess youre not old enough to buy alcohol or youd know most spirits around the world sell in 1lt or 750ml bottles... Yea, keep guzzling down those gallons of pepsi and mountain dew.

Kyleran · October 2009

I wanna play a football game with lasers, landmines and rocket launchers, sounds pretty cool.

I dunno, can't see the game favored by 11M players as really being a strong viloator of genre conventions, seems if anything its more of an adaptation thats been simplified and made more palatable for the causal player.

A generic version if you will, where one size fits all.

LynxJSA · October 2009

I read the first two replies and, imo, they were pretty much spot on. I stopped reading right there and I am walking away from this thread content.

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Popularity vs. Genre Conventions.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Popularity vs. Genre Conventions.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV