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Flaws in Dominion
Gdemami
Member EpicPosts: 12,342
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Gdemami
Yep, Dominion will:
1) change 0.0 into something absurd
2) achieve absolutely nothing apart from faster sovereigntly claiming
Man, I just love your indomitable optimism. What, what's the "something absurd" that 0.0 will be changed into?
It is not that I do not want to see Dominion being a success or just looking for something to bitch about, it is simply bad as were speed changes or T3 production - all for objective and valid reasons.
What I find potentionaly absurd about new 0.0 space?
EVE evolved a lot to reach the state of the game it is now. With various more or less 'intrusive mechanics' it created a place to accomodate all kind of people and still maintain the connection among them - across vast distance of jumps, security status and security space, professions and playstyles. Every piece of space and every each individual was unique while still being a part of the bigger world. This made EVE very rich world with lots of diversity and options. But Dominion is going to change this.
Dominion is an attempt to merge high sec space and 0.0, completely destroying the unique nature of this part of space. And once again to remove a few options from the game.
0.0 until now was PVP space, passive income of valueable moons was encouraging the gameplay without a grind like real-time skill training is supporting focus on playing the game instead of progressing your character.
Now you will have to make ISK for your (super)caps through ratting and mining. That is what idea of new 0.0 is... They call it 'maintaining' your space.
The whole idea of this change doesn't take player motivations and views into account.
Null sec is mostly populated by PVPers. This is not because there is a lack of room for other people. It is simply because of the nature of this space:
A ship blown up is 'profit' for PVPer while very undesireable for others. They make 'profit' of stability and minimizing loses.
CCP thinks it will be interesting to force them to work together - while it might be interesting from dev point of view, it is completely absurd and retarded from fun perspective.
Only way to make this to work is to have less PVP in your space.
Not absurd enough?
Comments
Originally posted by Gdemami :
0.0 until now was PVP space, passive income of valueable moons was encouraging the gameplay without a grind like real-time skill training is supporting focus on playing the game instead of progressing your character.
Now you will have to make ISK for your (super)caps through ratting and mining. That is what idea of new 0.0 is... They call it 'maintaining' your space.
So they are adding a bit of realism to the game. The notion of a vast empire that requires no income for upkeep is absurd. The thought of people in 0.0 actually having to conduct idustrial operations instead of just sitting around waiting for a fight or roaming around looking for combat is pleasing to me. What 0.0 is now is BORING AS HELL. It makes me smile when I think of players like yourself actually having to work with those "useless carebears" to maintain sovereignty.
CCP thinks it will be interesting to force them to work together - while it might be interesting from dev point of view, it is completely absurd and retarded from fun perspective.
Only if you are so singleminded that all you care about is blowing stuff up. I really think most eve players enjoy many sides of the game.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Invalid argumenting as usual.
RL arguments are irrelevant. This is a game, not a job.
Roaming and blowing up ships might be boring for you, not for people actualy doing it.
Yeah, tell me how I am single minded.
Please refrain from posting in this thread, Enkindu. You aren't posting anything consructive and all you do is to bringing it to personal level only.
It will be appreciated, thank you.
It is not that I do not want to see Dominion being a success or just looking for something to bitch about, it is simply bad as were speed changes or T3 production - all for objective and valid reasons.
What I find potentionaly absurd about new 0.0 space?
EVE evolved a lot to reach the state of the game it is now. With various more or less 'intrusive mechanics' it created a place to accomodate all kind of people and still maintain the connection among them - across vast distance of jumps, security status and security space, professions and playstyles. Every piece of space and every each individual was unique while still being a part of the bigger world. This made EVE very rich world with lots of diversity and options. But Dominion is going to change this.
Dominion is an attempt to merge high sec space and 0.0, completely destroying the unique nature of this part of space. And once again to remove a few options from the game.
0.0 until now was PVP space, passive income of valueable moons was encouraging the gameplay without a grind like real-time skill training is supporting focus on playing the game instead of progressing your character.
Now you will have to make ISK for your (super)caps through ratting and mining. That is what idea of new 0.0 is... They call it 'maintaining' your space.
The whole idea of this change doesn't take player motivations and views into account.
Null sec is mostly populated by PVPers. This is not because there is a lack of room for other people. It is simply because of the nature of this space:
A ship blown up is 'profit' for PVPer while very undesireable for others. They make 'profit' of stability and minimizing loses.
CCP thinks it will be interesting to force them to work together - while it might be interesting from dev point of view, it is completely absurd and retarded from fun perspective.
Only way to make this to work is to have less PVP in your space.
Not absurd enough?
So did the mod's start a new thread? I know I've read this before? Or maybe it's just too late and I need to go to bed.
Anyway, the only real flaw I see in your argument is what's going to happen if people start trying to make their income through ratting and mining in space filled with PVP'ers. I don't see people "working together". I see a big KPOW!
And if alliances become more fragile because of it then more KPOW.
ive been playing since 03 and i like what ive read of the changes, it'll actually break the hold of the superalliances by making them actually work for all there space vs just the chokepoints
It is not that I do not want to see Dominion being a success or just looking for something to bitch about, it is simply bad as were speed changes or T3 production - all for objective and valid reasons.
What I find potentionaly absurd about new 0.0 space?
EVE evolved a lot to reach the state of the game it is now. With various more or less 'intrusive mechanics' it created a place to accomodate all kind of people and still maintain the connection among them - across vast distance of jumps, security status and security space, professions and playstyles. Every piece of space and every each individual was unique while still being a part of the bigger world. This made EVE very rich world with lots of diversity and options. But Dominion is going to change this.
Dominion is an attempt to merge high sec space and 0.0, completely destroying the unique nature of this part of space. And once again to remove a few options from the game.
0.0 until now was PVP space, passive income of valueable moons was encouraging the gameplay without a grind like real-time skill training is supporting focus on playing the game instead of progressing your character.
Now you will have to make ISK for your (super)caps through ratting and mining. That is what idea of new 0.0 is... They call it 'maintaining' your space.
The whole idea of this change doesn't take player motivations and views into account.
Null sec is mostly populated by PVPers. This is not because there is a lack of room for other people. It is simply because of the nature of this space:
A ship blown up is 'profit' for PVPer while very undesireable for others. They make 'profit' of stability and minimizing loses.
CCP thinks it will be interesting to force them to work together - while it might be interesting from dev point of view, it is completely absurd and retarded from fun perspective.
Only way to make this to work is to have less PVP in your space.
Not absurd enough?
Your whole post - and the unsupported assertions behind it - are what is absurd, at least to me. Myself, I am moderately sure that Dominion will be a significant improvement to 0.0. The presense of more people mining, ratting and building does not in any way compromise 0.0 space as "PvP space" that I can see. To the contrary, the more people that are there, the more PvP there can be. If CCP were introducing gate guns, sec hits, CONCORD into 0.0, I would agree with you. They're not. You seem to object to the sheer principle of people engaging in non-combat activity in 0.0, but 0.0 was never intended to be solely for combat, not by CCP, not by the players. It's current status is a toxic abberation.
I'm not even going to flame you, since you're evidently sincere. We simply dont have enough common ground to debate on. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Fortunately, it will only be a few weeks until we find out one way or the other.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Gdemami, you actually made me laugh out loud. Coming from the undisputed king of personal whines and unfailingly negative assessments your comments are truly funny.
Just as you expect the game to be exactly the way YOU want it, you don't like comments that conflict with your ideas.
Well tough. This is a public message board. My ideas are just as valid as your own, and I'd say that my posts are generally MORE constructive than yours because I tend to focus on possibilities instead of everything that is wrong with eve (your specialty).
Your personal attacks are childish and make you look bad. Grow up.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I started the new thread because I do not want to derail already derailed thread
If the space is filled by PVPers, there are no ratters, mission runner or miners.
No matter what angle I am looking at the changes from, it is simply not working.
By statistics, there is slightly more than 50% of the players who are not leaving high security space ever. The other half is living in 0.0 exclusively or travel across the security space.
Who is supposed to be attracted and enjoy new ratting, mining, missioning or plexing opportunities then?
The PVPers who will need to make more ISK because their alliance won't be able to run as generous reimburstement programs as before? Or smaller entities that will need to grind even for cap production?
The high-sec crowd is most likely not willing to lose ships unconsensualy otherwise they would not be living in high sec.
Invalid argumenting as usual.
RL arguments are irrelevant. This is a game, not a job.
Roaming and blowing up ships might be boring for you, not for people actualy doing it.
Yeah, tell me how I am single minded.
Please refrain from posting in this thread, Enkindu. You aren't posting anything consructive and all you do is to bringing it to personal level only.
It will be appreciated, thank you.
ROFL. Don't you even see you are highly contradicting yourself? LOL.
And if you don't get what I am saying. Then reread these posts and keep rereading them till you get it.
Cheers
I have this feeling Dominion will be extremely interesting. Honestly, I can't see what bad could come of it. You want the new territory and the best money for your profession? Find out a way to work in 0.0 and survive among the pvpers. So not only does it tempt "carebears" into 0.0 but it also gives PVPers a whole new flock of prey to work on should they choose.
The only people complaining about it at this point are people who either:
1. Are carebears and don't want somebody being more successful than them just because they have the balls to play in 0.0
or
2. Are PvPers who by some stretch of the imagination actually think that more people in a PvP zone is a bad thing. Which just.. boggles my mind. Sure, once people start smartening up it might get a little more difficult to blow them up; but.. Eve IS a thinking man's game.
But that is not what you're doing, is it?
You completely ignored conflict I hinted out about people populating 0.0 space and the mechanics that are making people live in concord protected space.
More people bringing more PVP in 0.0 would apply only if:
1) New people are PVPers.
2) New people are non-PVP minded people who don't mind losing ships, space and months of work - and those pople most likely already live out of high.sec.
So how excatly you make 0.0 more populated without need to make it safer at the same time? Where are you supposed to recruit people from when people accepting the risk are already there?
Argumenting with 'original' intention is very weak, especialy when talking about EVE where the world is build by players. Acknowledging this type of development, is indeed defeating all sandbox principles and admiting openly that you ignore your customers.
You don't play as we intended you to play -> here goes overhaul to asure you will do what we want.
Any changes to the game must come from the state of the game, not your vision.
Vision is for adding new content, anylysis is for changes.
Current space structure:
High sec space is more focused on individuals then any other space. You have the protection of Concord and NPC corp and most of the things you can do there by being alone.
Low sec space is one step for gaining corporation benefits. The use of POS is improves dramaticaly as well as need for working in team.
Null sec space is next step from corporations to alliances. Only alliance can claim a space that benefits from valuable moons and super cap production as well as other 0.0 exclusive resources.
Dominion is breaking it. It is no more focused on alliance but individuals. Ratting, mining, missions, plexing - all individual activities being boosted while alliance business in form of large scale income and production is being nerfed.
This is where 0.0 merges with high sec - going back from alliances to individuals. Does it make sense? Not much.
I started the new thread because I do not want to derail already derailed thread
If the space is filled by PVPers, there are no ratters, mission runner or miners.
No matter what angle I am looking at the changes from, it is simply not working.
By statistics, there is slightly more than 50% of the players who are not leaving high security space ever. The other half is living in 0.0 exclusively or travel across the security space.
Who is supposed to be attracted and enjoy new ratting, mining, missioning or plexing opportunities then?
The PVPers who will need to make more ISK because their alliance won't be able to run as generous reimburstement programs as before? Or smaller entities that will need to grind even for cap production?
The high-sec crowd is most likely not willing to lose ships unconsensualy otherwise they would not be living in high sec.
Okay, I have been in several 0.0 alliances and I have yet to see a PvP based alliance or corp NOT rat. It is usually what drums up the whine fest of ... "How are we supposed to compete with the carebears cranking out the L4 missions with no risk while we get worse results while ratting but have a lot of risk? We can't compete! Waaaaaah!"
In addition, any IMPORTANT alliance do actually run complexes. Usually the same corps/alliances run them on a regular basis and crank them out like clockwork. It's usually what separates the haves from the have nots.
Unless of course your in useless NPC nullsec -or- in a region like, Germinate (or equally as useless) - your whole assumption of 0.0 being used only for combat is way off. Not to mention, sov warfare right now is horrible. BoB started to fall apart a couple months before their Max campaign simply because how sick of bombarding towers people were getting. I know of several people that were around for a couple years that left because of how stale 0.0 combat is.
For alliances, I don't see the argument of upkeep changing very much. In fact, several regions that were considered "less valuable" previously, can be upgraded. This offers new opportunities and may make the selection of systems based on logistic routes rather than moons. Besides, several alliances are going to have a smile on their face when they bring in a carebear-like indy corp that are drooling at the mouth over the ore. Alliances simply need to say - if you want the better ore, than work for it. Meanwhile, it's the PvPers that will benefit from doing nothing. Possibly even better yet, have a little more pew, pew to save the untrained carebear asses.
No, it won't. Large alliances will still control large space.
You think that claiming, fighting and defending your space is no work? That it is achieved by magical wand? No, it isn't...
Because you only look at how someone other see it regardless reality of the game.
The new changes won't mean more space to grap, far from it. If you are not able to claim and hold your space now, you won'tbe able to do it after the changes.
Nothing is tempting for carebears here. 0.0 means you will lose, more or less and carebears are peole who do not like to lose so no temptation.
More 'flock' would mean more ships blown up resulting in less 'flock'...this is how it works.
QFT
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Good input.
What I only think is that you make no difference between alliance income and individual wallet.
You are not relly ratting or running plex to pay for your friends dread or his new POS, are you? This is what alliance income is for.
Upgrading your space means no changes to true sec. As it seems, the upgrades for ratting will be scale horizontaly, not verticaly - meaning more sites to run, not actually better rats.
For mining it might be different.
I have to say it again - space upgrades are no ISK for space owner!
Unless you make ISK creating out of thin air, they only get few penny for station fees and taxes.
Look, while I like a lot of what they are trying to accomplish there are a few things that Dominion (as explained so far) just won't do:
1. Bring more people into Nullsec. The idea that any of this is going to bring the majority of the games players who sit in Hi-sec into Nullsec is totally unsupported. These players do not want the open pvp environment and are perfectly happy in their mission running, wormhole exploring, exploration hunting and industrial high-sec corporate lives.
2. Dominion doesn't really fix the basic issues of tower sieges. Renaming the million+ hp whatsamiggit that you have to emplace or blow up and changing the gimmicks of how and when it is placed/fueled doesn't really change that. Especially with how much the new system favors the defense...so you are still going to have to blow down all the dug in deathstars they are basing out of first...in the SAME mind numbingly boring fashion as now.
3. Dominion doesn't fix the horrible state of capital ships and cap ship fleet combat in the least...seems to completely ignore it even.
I even understand the worries about revenue stream....in the corp/alliance I was in, yes we all ratted and many of us did exploration/ran complexes...but that was *personal* income for our own toys and ship replacement. The high value moon mining operations were what largely funded the corp POS operations and other large corp/alliance fees and such. With the "levelling" of moon mining incomes, that model will fall apart...it will simply be unsupportable without drastically raising corp taxes, which will in turn cut into individual member income.
Realistically change will always upset some people. If they change something you like, you'll be unhappy. Thats understandable. I'm pretty sure EvE devs know and understand this. Consequently I'm sure they're making changes they think will benefit a majority of players as well as induce more new players to join.
Personally I think the idea of making 0.0 more diverse is good. And frankly I'm none too concerned if people who think pvp is the end-all and be-all of play are disappointed. Diversity is good.
We'll see in the long term how it comes out. But I bet its an overall positive for the game.
P.S. change one or two words and this post can probably be recycled for EVERY change CCP ever implements.
Moon mining will still exist, taxes and station fees will still exist. You are also forgetting about the new treaties tool which i know will not make it into dominion but will shortly after. They have said there will be the opertunity to set rights of passage, no fly zones and economic agreements.
I can see a lot of the income you fear an alliance loosing being recouped by this new system. It will be amazing, your area of 0.0 will actually function as a proper state. Alliances will rise and fall not just from invasion but from how they manage the new systems with dominion.
You will need to really sell your space to the high sec miners and ratters, once they have moved in you tax them. The whole system to me just sounds like more sand is being added to the box, i cant see where you get the idea they are taking some of it away.
While I still holding my conclusions about detailed mechanics introduced with Dominion and focus on design thing, there are a few things I can comment:
1) I don't mind the idea being unsupported only if does not make the 0.0 alliances depending on it, which is currently on good track to happen.
Make it optional, not required.
2) A lot of claiming mechanics were reworked or are not shaped even yet.
ie. you only need to cover +51% percent of the gates before starting to disrupt sovereignty. It was 100% originaly.
Then they added Infrastructure hubs which they seem needed to be pounded at before sovereignty disrupting process.
Stations play some role here too, I think they make the hub invulnerable.
The process currently seem to be:
Station -> Hub -> Sov disrupting -> Sov flag
Someone mentioned 9 days to overtake the system as longest time period.
Whole a lot of thing can happen but yes, defending is by principle much easier now.
What is the major change is sovereignty levels. You don't need to control whole constalation to make your station safe. You will have to pick the system you gonna claim sovereignty over. That might mean less worthless systems to conquer before you hit where it hurts.
Less systems controled means less things to blow up but this is indeed arguable...
There will be more to see next week when complete system is supposed to be released on Sisi..if not postponed again.
3) Yes, cap warfare is untouched...
Proper state requires duties, workers, labour and grind = no fun.
Treaties won't help the fact that the space promotes only individual income thus paying for being there means that you have to get the ISK from people making their personal ISK there thus defeating whole idea of moving into a space for better profit.
'shortly after'...yeah sure...
so far all i have heard from you is where dominion is going to go bad Gdemami. What's you solution then ?
The expansion that redesigns the function of the Doomsday and introduces new Fighter Bombers is an expansion that is completely ignoring cap fleet combat?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I like the idea of upgrading your space, just don't find it suitable for 0.0.
It offers great opporutinities for space like CVA Providence. With some tweaks and sovereignty included in tax mechanics, it would be truly epic and I think it would hit exactly what CCP was aiming for with Dominion.
Maybe you could move it to low sec since Providence is closer to low sec rather than 0.0.
While I am no cap pilot myself, I would say that changes to cap are not really fixing anything nor they really change the cap warfare on the battlefield.
In fact, I think it makes things even worse, it makes the game work more in bigger = better pattern :-/
My feeling from the cap change is that: 'OK, there is a cap change on schedule for Dominion. Why not doing this?'
Easy to implement, nothing major, lacking any deeper concept, reasoning or wit.
While I am no cap pilo myself, I would say that changes to cap are not really fixing anything nor they really change the cap warfare on the battlefield.
In fact, I think it makes things even worse, it makes the game work more in bigger = better pattern :-/
I'm getting the feeling that anything they do is wrong, at this point, atleast in your modest yet loudly anounced opinion? I honestly can't understand what you're so obsessed about.
Only positive, regardless how reasonable, feedback is allowed?
What's your point anyway?