The Fallacy of 'More Developers'

Wepps · January 2005

More developers is not the answer.

Here is a product that took 60 developers 3 full years to release in a form that was not only unfinished, but practically unbegun. To put this in perspective, it took the Mythic team of 15 developers only 1.5 years to release DAoC in it's form, which at that time was considered the greatest release of all time.

The problem with SWG has never been in the developers. The problem is in the management.

Those responsible for the direction development has taken do not understand the concepts of good game play.

Specifically, Koster and Vogel are the culprits here. To them, this is more of an experiment than a product with paying customers. Often, if you read the material they have accumulated over the years, you will notice the discussions centering around 'ART versus CONTENT'. It is also obvious that SWG is devoted to Art.

The error in reason here is that they are suggesting you can't have both, when you have the backing of the tremendous amount of resources through SOE and Lucas in this particular case.

With SWG, Art won the argument. However, the game play leaves much to be desired, and the direction of development has led the game down a cul-de-sac from which there is no recovery without a changing of attitude, and therefore a changing of the guard at the very top of the food chain.

Truly, SWG can release a hundred expansions, and the game play will never improve. This is the result of being directed by professional management that lacks vision, and dedication to superior game design.

Without Koster/Vogel gone from the picture, and all associated with their style of management, no matter what decisions they make will always bring more grief to the community than proper product development. It's that simple.

Adding more developers simply makes the design that much more unmanageable, for those incapable of managing what they already have at their disposal now, the largest development team in the industry.

Unknown · January 2005

Originally posted by Wepps
More developers is not the answer.

Here is a product that took 60 developers 3 full years to release in a form that was not only unfinished, but practically unbegun.

100% f-a-l-s-e. SWG was announced in November 1999. It released by July 2003. That is 3 years and 8 months total. So it took much MORE than 3 years to release. Next, no MMORPG is every finnished. That is one of the definitions of MMORPGs. They will always get new content added. Was SWG playable at release? And how playable? SWG was 100% unplayable on Day 1 of release because their servers got blitzed. By Day 2 of release SWG was playable. Not only playable, but roughly 90% playable. Playable enough for the game to be fun. (Compare to AO which for a solid 6 months after release was unplayable for the majority of players.)

For SWG to be playable most definatly means it was far more than "practically unbegun."

Next, the old SWG site had bios of all the major game DEVs, and minor game DEVs. And there were nowhere near 60 of them. To give you an idea of how detailed the bios were, and how inclusive they were - they even included the secrataries. There were roughly 30 game DEVs, adding all the major ones and minor ones. Including the ones like the one and only SUNSWORD who did work on SWG for a while, then went back to working on UO.

To put this in perspective, it took the Mythic team of 15 developers only 1.5 years to release DAoC in it's form, which at that time was considered the greatest release of all time.

   F-a-l-s-e. SWG is a far, far, more developed game, game engine, game design, than Mythic's game DaoC. DAoC cannot even be discussed in the same conversation with SWG. That is how far apart the technology of both games are when looking at how both were at release. Heck, I was using a T1 connection, with 1 GIG RAM, Pent 4, GeForce 4, 2.0 GHZ processor, and the big city in DAoC took a full 5 mins to load. I thought my internet went down! LOL! All the cities in EQ load instantly to 5 secs. All the cities in SWG have zero load time.

The problem with SWG has never been in the developers. The problem is in the management.

Management is part of developement.

Those responsible for the direction development has taken do not understand the concepts of good game play.

   Then make your own MMORPG. That is why these guys got into the buisness in the first place. If you read up on them you will find this out. Do exactly what Lord British did, what Rob Zombie did. If you think you can do better - then DO better. Save up 1,000 to 5,000 (USA) and make a MMORPG like TDZK, Astonia 3, Runescape, Strive For Power, Edge of Chaos, Dransik, etc.... It is sooo and tooo easy to talk. BTW most of the game DEVs have more gaming experience than you could imagine, no matter how hard you try to imagine. But yes, they do make fubar attempts. Thus enter you, me, or anyone else who doesn't like the current state of things. Pull a Rob Zombie. (He got tired of all the garbage "hard rock" out, and made the kind of music he liked to hear. His success is proof he's not the only one who was tired of all the garbage "hard rock".)

Specifically, Koster and Vogel are the culprits here. To them, this is more of an experiment than a product with paying customers. Often, if you read the material they have accumulated over the years, you will notice the discussions centering around 'ART versus CONTENT'. It is also obvious that SWG is devoted to Art.

   You have supported by above point that management is part of developement. Raph Koster aka Designer Dragon in UO, aka Holocron in SWG, is a lead game DEV. Rich Vogel is part of management. Next, the definition of what is art is a toss up. Everyone has their own opinion. And if you read thorough Designer Dragon's aka Holcron's essays on his homesite,

http://www.legendmud.org/raph/

(click on "gaming" then "essays".)

you will see it was never an issue with him of "art vs content". His issue has always been to try learning from past mistakes, and to build upon past success aka push the envelope with NEW ideas. That is why UO is still going strong today. That is why SWG is still a very unique and phenominal game.

The error in reason here is that they are suggesting you can't have both, when you have the backing of the tremendous amount of resources through SOE and Lucas in this particular case.

With SWG, Art won the argument. However, the game play leaves much to be desired, and the direction of development has led the game down a cul-de-sac from which there is no recovery without a changing of attitude, and therefore a changing of the guard at the very top of the food chain.

   No. With SWG there were 2 chiefs trying to lead at the same time. SOE ... and... LucasArts. SOE had their own ideas (especially on how to do Jedi) and LucasArts had their own ideas (which led to the Jedi hologrind - the first downfall of SWG.)

Truly, SWG can release a hundred expansions, and the game play will never improve. This is the result of being directed by professional management that lacks vision, and dedication to superior game design.

   Stop exaggerating. No MMORPG has ever, ever, released 100 expansions. I dare you to name your favorite MMORPG. Name it. And even it will not come close to having that much content.

Without Koster/Vogel gone from the picture, and all associated with their style of management, no matter what decisions they make will always bring more grief to the community than proper product development. It's that simple.

Adding more developers simply makes the design that much more unmanageable, for those incapable of managing what they already have at their disposal now, the largest development team in the industry.

*Sigh*

If only you knew the true, FULL, history of SWG. SWG suffered the most from the Jedi holgrind. It ripped the game community up. A fallout of this was the nearly false new ads for SWG showing SWG as another "Jedi OUtcast", "KOTOR", "Jedi Powerbattles", type game - ALL of this done by LucasArts against the wishes of SOE. LucasArts TWICE did major things related to SWG without ever notifying SOE.

- The first time was releasing a ton of screenshots from Beta to some gamer site. SOE thought someone breeched the beta contract.

- The second time was SOE forcing the direction of SWG by diverting how Jedi were to be done. Originally SOE (aka Raph Koster) wanted to do Jedi just like playing Diablo 2: Lords of Destruction in hardcore mode. This would have been perfect. The epitamy of true, hardcore, gaming. And also keep in tune with making Jedi rare. LucasArts then launched an ad campaign with new ads done in flash that featured Jedi in 50%-75% of the entire ad. Making it look as if SWG is a Jedi only game. When the opposite at the time was true. On the NEW current SWG forums the SWG game DEVs theirselves posted a NEW thread talking about this. How they had nothing to do with what LucasArts did in the ads, and did in the new bad direction they forced SWG to go, and is currently going.

In closing, SWG does indeed need more game DEVs, if work is going undone. According to the players, work is going undone. What SWG needs is less chiefs, less heads leading it. LucasArts is still one of the heads, chiefs, of SWG + SOE. In the past, LucasArts has NEVER EVER made any attempt at player relations, customer relations, nothing. They have shown by their actions they are only intrested in the bottom line, not the players. Far moreso than SONY is. In fact LucasArts even prosecuted a group of SWG fans. Those fans came out in the open on the old SWG forums and got support from the thousands of other SW fans and SWG fans which FORCED LucasArts to back the ----- off.

-Personal Website
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives02

Motorhead · January 2005

Originally posted by Wepps

More developers is not the answer.
Here is a product that took 60 developers 3 full years to release in a form that was not only unfinished, but practically unbegun. To put this in perspective, it took the Mythic team of 15 developers only 1.5 years to release DAoC in it's form, which at that time was considered the greatest release of all time.
The problem with SWG has never been in the developers. The problem is in the management.
Those responsible for the direction development has taken do not understand the concepts of good game play.
Specifically, Koster and Vogel are the culprits here. To them, this is more of an experiment than a product with paying customers. Often, if you read the material they have accumulated over the years, you will notice the discussions centering around 'ART versus CONTENT'. It is also obvious that SWG is devoted to Art.
The error in reason here is that they are suggesting you can't have both, when you have the backing of the tremendous amount of resources through SOE and Lucas in this particular case.
With SWG, Art won the argument. However, the game play leaves much to be desired, and the direction of development has led the game down a cul-de-sac from which there is no recovery without a changing of attitude, and therefore a changing of the guard at the very top of the food chain.
Truly, SWG can release a hundred expansions, and the game play will never improve. This is the result of being directed by professional management that lacks vision, and dedication to superior game design.
Without Koster/Vogel gone from the picture, and all associated with their style of management, no matter what decisions they make will always bring more grief to the community than proper product development. It's that simple.
Adding more developers simply makes the design that much more unmanageable, for those incapable of managing what they already have at their disposal now, the largest development team in the industry.

/Agree

--------------------------------------------
I'm like a Superhero without the powers or motivation.

TookyG · January 2005

Yes, Wepps is a good one for exaggeration. The former SWG BH correspondent returns once again to the MMORPG.com forums to complain.

If you don't like SWG fine, please don't drop in from time to time with your opinions of a game you probably haven't played in a while. If you have been playing then I ask, why? It sure seems you dislike it.

Kash_Hero' · January 2005

Originally posted by xplororor

Originally posted by Wepps

More developers is not the answer.
Here is a product that took 60 developers 3 full years to release in a form that was not only unfinished, but practically unbegun.
100% f-a-l-s-e. SWG was announced in November 1999. It released by July 2003. That is 3 years and 8 months total. So it took much MORE than 3 years to release. Next, no MMORPG is every finnished. That is one of the definitions of MMORPGs. They will always get new content added. Was SWG playable at release? And how playable? SWG was 100% unplayable on Day 1 of release because their servers got blitzed. By Day 2 of release SWG was playable. Not only playable, but roughly 90% playable. Playable enough for the game to be fun. (Compare to AO which for a solid 6 months after release was unplayable for the majority of players.)
For SWG to be playable most definatly means it was far more than "practically unbegun."
Next, the old SWG site had bios of all the major game DEVs, and minor game DEVs. And there were nowhere near 60 of them. To give you an idea of how detailed the bios were, and how inclusive they were - they even included the secrataries. There were roughly 30 game DEVs, adding all the major ones and minor ones. Including the ones like the one and only SUNSWORD who did work on SWG for a while, then went back to working on UO.
To put this in perspective, it took the Mythic team of 15 developers only 1.5 years to release DAoC in it's form, which at that time was considered the greatest release of all time.
   F-a-l-s-e. SWG is a far, far, more developed game, game engine, game design, than Mythic's game DaoC. DAoC cannot even be discussed in the same conversation with SWG. That is how far apart the technology of both games are when looking at how both were at release. Heck, I was using a T1 connection, with 1 GIG RAM, Pent 4, GeForce 4, 2.0 GHZ processor, and the big city in DAoC took a full 5 mins to load. I thought my internet went down! LOL! All the cities in EQ load instantly to 5 secs. All the cities in SWG have zero load time.

The problem with SWG has never been in the developers. The problem is in the management.
Management is part of developement.
Those responsible for the direction development has taken do not understand the concepts of good game play.
   Then make your own MMORPG. That is why these guys got into the buisness in the first place. If you read up on them you will find this out. Do exactly what Lord British did, what Rob Zombie did. If you think you can do better - then DO better. Save up 1,000 to 5,000 (USA) and make a MMORPG like TDZK, Astonia 3, Runescape, Strive For Power, Edge of Chaos, Dransik, etc.... It is sooo and tooo easy to talk. BTW most of the game DEVs have more gaming experience than you could imagine, no matter how hard you try to imagine. But yes, they do make fubar attempts. Thus enter you, me, or anyone else who doesn't like the current state of things. Pull a Rob Zombie. (He got tired of all the garbage "hard rock" out, and made the kind of music he liked to hear. His success is proof he's not the only one who was tired of all the garbage "hard rock".)
Specifically, Koster and Vogel are the culprits here. To them, this is more of an experiment than a product with paying customers. Often, if you read the material they have accumulated over the years, you will notice the discussions centering around 'ART versus CONTENT'. It is also obvious that SWG is devoted to Art.
   You have supported by above point that management is part of developement. Raph Koster aka Designer Dragon in UO, aka Holocron in SWG, is a lead game DEV. Rich Vogel is part of management. Next, the definition of what is art is a toss up. Everyone has their own opinion. And if you read thorough Designer Dragon's aka Holcron's essays on his homesite,
http://www.legendmud.org/raph/
(click on "gaming" then "essays".)
you will see it was never an issue with him of "art vs content". His issue has always been to try learning from past mistakes, and to build upon past success aka push the envelope with NEW ideas. That is why UO is still going strong today. That is why SWG is still a very unique and phenominal game.
The error in reason here is that they are suggesting you can't have both, when you have the backing of the tremendous amount of resources through SOE and Lucas in this particular case.
With SWG, Art won the argument. However, the game play leaves much to be desired, and the direction of development has led the game down a cul-de-sac from which there is no recovery without a changing of attitude, and therefore a changing of the guard at the very top of the food chain.
   No. With SWG there were 2 chiefs trying to lead at the same time. SOE ... and... LucasArts. SOE had their own ideas (especially on how to do Jedi) and LucasArts had their own ideas (which led to the Jedi hologrind - the first downfall of SWG.)
Truly, SWG can release a hundred expansions, and the game play will never improve. This is the result of being directed by professional management that lacks vision, and dedication to superior game design.
   Stop exaggerating. No MMORPG has ever, ever, released 100 expansions. I dare you to name your favorite MMORPG. Name it. And even it will not come close to having that much content.
Without Koster/Vogel gone from the picture, and all associated with their style of management, no matter what decisions they make will always bring more grief to the community than proper product development. It's that simple.
Adding more developers simply makes the design that much more unmanageable, for those incapable of managing what they already have at their disposal now, the largest development team in the industry.

*Sigh*

If only you knew the true, FULL, history of SWG. SWG suffered the most from the Jedi holgrind. It ripped the game community up. A fallout of this was the nearly false new ads for SWG showing SWG as another "Jedi OUtcast", "KOTOR", "Jedi Powerbattles", type game - ALL of this done by LucasArts against the wishes of SOE. LucasArts TWICE did major things related to SWG without ever notifying SOE.

- The first time was releasing a ton of screenshots from Beta to some gamer site. SOE thought someone breeched the beta contract.

- The second time was SOE forcing the direction of SWG by diverting how Jedi were to be done. Originally SOE (aka Raph Koster) wanted to do Jedi just like playing Diablo 2: Lords of Destruction in hardcore mode. This would have been perfect. The epitamy of true, hardcore, gaming. And also keep in tune with making Jedi rare. LucasArts then launched an ad campaign with new ads done in flash that featured Jedi in 50%-75% of the entire ad. Making it look as if SWG is a Jedi only game. When the opposite at the time was true. On the NEW current SWG forums the SWG game DEVs theirselves posted a NEW thread talking about this. How they had nothing to do with what LucasArts did in the ads, and did in the new bad direction they forced SWG to go, and is currently going.

In closing, SWG does indeed need more game DEVs, if work is going undone. According to the players, work is going undone. What SWG needs is less chiefs, less heads leading it. LucasArts is still one of the heads, chiefs, of SWG + SOE. In the past, LucasArts has NEVER EVER made any attempt at player relations, customer relations, nothing. They have shown by their actions they are only intrested in the bottom line, not the players. Far moreso than SONY is. In fact LucasArts even prosecuted a group of SWG fans. Those fans came out in the open on the old SWG forums and got support from the thousands of other SW fans and SWG fans which FORCED LucasArts to back the ----- off.

-Personal Website
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-EverQuest II:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EQ, Dungeon Siege, Diablo II, *UXO*:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
DAoC
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives02

That had to be....the best post in these forums..

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The Fallacy of 'More Developers'

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The Fallacy of 'More Developers'

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