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Death Penalty and its decline.

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Murashu

     
    How am I forcing my playstyle on someone else? We were having a friendly discussion before you started expressing your extremist ideas. /wrists

     

    Because you're arguing that harsh death penalties ought to be a part of the game mechanics where people don't have a choice whether to use them or not.  People who want a harsh death penalty can absolutely impose one on themselves, they just don't want to.  They want to impose it on *EVERYONE* whether people want one or not.

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by garn



    I just had to respond to this asshat discussion. Of course you have to make death penalties the same for everyone in most of todays games. Even if you by design want to make it a harsh one. The reason for this being that while I can of course be an advocate of perma death f. ex. and there fore delete my char if I die in for instance WoW, how much fun is this when I meet a guy of the enemy faction who will not delete his character if I kill him in battle ?

    Seriously, what difference does it make to you if they delete their character or not?  You're playing a game for yourself, not to make other people do things.  If you want a harsh death penalty because you think the game is too easy otherwise, then it doesn't affect you one bit of nobody else plays that way.  Whether the other guy dies or not doesn't affect your own personal gameplay.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • garngarn Member Posts: 12
    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by garn



    I just had to respond to this asshat discussion. Of course you have to make death penalties the same for everyone in most of todays games. Even if you by design want to make it a harsh one. The reason for this being that while I can of course be an advocate of perma death f. ex. and there fore delete my char if I die in for instance WoW, how much fun is this when I meet a guy of the enemy faction who will not delete his character if I kill him in battle ?

    Seriously, what difference does it make to you if they delete their character or not?  You're playing a game for yourself, not to make other people do things.  If you want a harsh death penalty because you think the game is too easy otherwise, then it doesn't affect you one bit of nobody else plays that way.  Whether the other guy dies or not doesn't affect your own personal gameplay.

    It does make a very big difference because that guy would most likely play the game very differently if he too needed to delete his char. All in all everybody would most likely play differently there by making the game a different experience. 

    All in all it might not be a matter of whether or not I want it to be a hard fight to get end game without dying for myself, but more a matter of the fact that I would like a more harsh world where people might not jump the ganking gun so fast because they in turn risk being run into the ground by the general population for being PKers.

    Other than this I am not gonna continue arguing that different rules for different people does not make the game fun. The experience I would get from playing a game with f.ex. permadeath or full loot or whatever is not the same as me playing a game where I by my own accord delete my own char if I die. The difference being that me deleting the char changes the experience a bit for me, but does not change how opponents/allies play the game at all, there fore I will not achieve the feel and experience I wanted unless my opponents lay by the same rulebook.

  • The repair bill in JGE is pretty severe (depending on your level), so your smile will fade quickly when you see the repair cost back at the station.

  • MurashuMurashu Member UncommonPosts: 1,385
    Originally posted by Cephus404


     Because you're arguing that harsh death penalties ought to be a part of the game mechanics where people don't have a choice whether to use them or not.  People who want a harsh death penalty can absolutely impose one on themselves, they just don't want to.  They want to impose it on *EVERYONE* whether people want one or not.

    If people dont want to play a game with death penalties then they have the choice of not playing it. Its hard to impose something on a person who chooses to buy, install, and play a game on their own accord.

    www.agonysend.org

  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004
    Originally posted by Murashu


    If people dont want to play a game with death penalties then they have the choice of not playing it. Its hard to impose something on a person who chooses to buy, install, and play a game on their own accord.



     

    Ya, the same goes the other way around.  If you don't like games with no death penalty, don't play it.

    I dont' play darkfall because it have harsh death penalty.  So I play another game. 

    I'd like every single mmorpg to have no death penalty, but it just don't happen.  Because the world don't revolve around me.

  • MurashuMurashu Member UncommonPosts: 1,385
    Originally posted by laokoko



    I'd like every single mmorpg to have no death penalty, but it just don't happen.  Because the world don't revolve around me.

    Atleast you understand that not all games will be tailored for you. I dont want every MMO to have a death penalty, but I dont want to see them disappear either.

    www.agonysend.org

  • BloodDualityBloodDuality Member UncommonPosts: 404

    In most games I prefer lax death penalties so I can get back into the excitement of the battle without quite so much worry of losing things I have worked for too easily. Have to say that spending hours grinding to acomplish something and then having someone come and gank you and stealing it is not much fun. That sort of think really does kill a player base over time, and will only leave those that enjoy to kill and take from others.

    This leads me to eve-online, and it is still a game I will recomend to anyone to try. I played it for around 6 months and ultimatly quit because of the death penalty. I enjoyed the rush and fear of combat and knowing that it could be lost, but I disliked the isk grind required to rebuild everything. I also got upset by losing everything due to lag, and not having any chance to defend myself. Strong death penalties plus any network trouble or computer problems equal unhappy players.

    One day when technology is better I can see death penalties being more useable, but for me I do not want to lose anything or everything to glitches.

  • MurdusMurdus Member UncommonPosts: 698
    Originally posted by lisubab

    Originally posted by Murdus


    I think games like Darkfall, and EVE, have such a strong dedicated (and harsh) community because of such things as the death penalties  You got any proof that death penalty alone gives strong community?. If you look at UO, some of the top clans of Darkfall / EVE originated from that game. I think it rules out all the people that could 'kinda like the game' and only leaves the people that really like the ruleset, leading to likeminded people playing the game.  You are trying to say, the game alienates the majority of the gamer population, so whoever else still logging onto the game is called by you as strong dedicated.  The same goes for the mental hospital.  Only lunatics stays inside, the majority leaves.  Those inpatients are indeed strong dedicated.
    I am currently playing Darkfall and loving it so far because its just more fun. That is your idea of fun.  Not everyone's.  The fact that so few people bother with that game seems to be an indirect prove that not many consider that fun at all.  You feel more attached to the game when you die that is you, not me and start cursing off your keyboard that you just lost your mount and brand new armor set you like to play a game in which you gets upset and frustrated, not everyone else do, definitely not everyone does when they are not in a good mood. You're forced you like to play a game in which you are forced to take risks with trusting people, and sometimes that leads to friendship, or hostility and longterm enemies... either one leads to long term involvment of everyone in the community.
     
    It is a great design for a game because of risks you are starting a course on game design?. A game without risk might as well throw a quicksave button in there that is all you know about game design? risk or quicksave button? now I know how good you are about this topic. When you do something good in a game like Darkfall, you are happy for a while and want to talk about it and tell your story yeah I know, you play a game in order to talk like a big man.  Hmm E-peens.. Whereas in a game with little risk like WoW, you do something (idk what you do because there isnt anything to do thats considered 'cool' anymore) you will tell people and they will say 'yea everyone does it'.  I remember playing basketball at the backyard, I never need to go home and talk about how I played.  I only need to go home for a shower afterwards.
     
    Not all games can be like this and I am not forcing my opinion on developers or saying my opinion is right. But I am saying that personally, without risk, games effing suck REALLY bad.  Yeah this I strongly agree, you have a very clear understanding of what you like.  I salute you, in knowing that its only a personal view.

    Different strokes for different folks.  Different games for different gamers. 

    I think you took each individual sentence and discredited or blamed me for wrongdoing.

    Do I have any proof that a harsh death penalty creates a strong community? No, but do you have any proof of anything forming a strong community? No. Certain communities are formed by certain things, and I believe in some games with a harsh ruleset, that is indeed the creator.

    I don't like to play games to get frustrated, but "frustration" if thats what you call a 4 seconds outburst of anger or regret, is a sign that you are indeed attached to the game.

    And I apologize for using the word "force" but that sentence could have easily been replaced with : " Games where risk riddles the gameworld" and you probably wouldn't have said anything.

    I don't play for my epeen I play because I enjoy competing and occasionally if something neat happens, tell someone about it. Why is that wrong?

    The basketball example was lame and doesn't really tie in. If you did something cool, sometimes you want to tell someone else about it, how is that deserving of a silly unrelated metaphor?

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Murashu

    Originally posted by laokoko



    I'd like every single mmorpg to have no death penalty, but it just don't happen.  Because the world don't revolve around me.

    Atleast you understand that not all games will be tailored for you. I dont want every MMO to have a death penalty, but I dont want to see them disappear either.

     

    Games are going to cater to the people that the developers think are going to best financially support them.  Welcome to the business world.  If you can find enough people who want a harsh death penalty and will consistently pay the bills month to month, I'm sure you can find a company that would be happy to provide them.  The problem is, there just aren't that many people out there who want it.  The idea that companies ought to provide a server for 5 people to play on is absurd.  It's just not a financially viable option.

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  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by Murdus

    Originally posted by lisubab

    ....

    I think you took each individual sentence and discredited or blamed me for wrongdoing.  Well, If I am not commenting your writing sentence by sentence, what am I doing?  Overall comment?  I did at the end.

    Do I have any proof that a harsh death penalty creates a strong community? No, but do you have any proof of anything forming a strong community? No. Certain communities are formed by certain things, and I believe in some games with a harsh ruleset, that is indeed the creator.  Ok you have no proof about it, that is what I am pointing out, not saying you are wrong.  I do not have to prove otherwise, it is you who is trying to sell a point, a point I suggest is too "subjective".

    I don't like to play games to get frustrated, but "frustration" if thats what you call a 4 seconds outburst of anger or regret, is a sign that you are indeed attached to the game.  Ok you are attached ... you do not like to play ... make up your mind.

    And I apologize for using the word "force" but that sentence could have easily been replaced with : " Games where risk riddles the gameworld" and you probably wouldn't have said anything.

    I don't play for my epeen I play because I enjoy competing and occasionally if something neat happens, tell someone about it. Why is that wrong?  If you enjoy competition, go ahead, but what you are essentially saying is people playing WoW has nothing to show off, while you have something to boast and talk about.  I failed to see how that is not a form of epeen behaviour.

    The basketball example was lame and doesn't really tie in. If you did something cool, sometimes you want to tell someone else about it, how is that deserving of a silly unrelated metaphor?  You feel the need to talk about your game, and think that there is nothing to talk about if you play WoW, not cool.  Not everybody care to talk about their games, they just play it for the heck of playing.  There are far more important things to talk about, or more fun, than talking about a silly little game.  How is my metaphor unrelated?



     

    You really failed to see my overall comment.  Darkfall is just a game, as much as WoW, as much as basketball.  Everyone play their own games for their own fun.  Risk is what you think you get from your game.  No argument for that part.  Your attempt it trying to put down WoW as a source of fun for other people, is where I objected.

    You like your darkfall, someone like their other games.  That is it.  You hardly know why millions are playing WoW.  Most of those millions do not understand why a couple thousnd play darkfall.  There is no need to dismiss each other.  Just play it.  There is no inherit superiority in playing a game.  You are making as much sense as saying "basket ball is a superior game to soccer b/c the ball is bigger".

    And ... if talking about your game is your source of "cool" and fun, do it.  But ... that does not lead to "whereas in a game like wow you do something ... and they will say "yeah everyone does that" ' (your words).  No everyone need to talk about their games.  Nor do everyone care to pick a game their think they can talk more about.  I pick the game I want to play at that moment, and forget it after I finished playing.

  • flydowntomeflydowntome Member Posts: 106

    Death penalties don't really draw me any more. The heavier the penalty, the more it encourages conservative play. If dying takes 10% of your exp, you are not going to be willing to die 3-4 times very often, even if experimentation often requires it, or you need to because you are running newbies through it.

    FFXI had this problem with missions, chains of promathia especially. The death penalties and difficulty of the missions prevented a lot of people from helping out with them once they completed it, so SE removed death penalties in many fights. The death penalty in general is steep in FFXI, 10% exp loss on death unless raised, and possibility to lose levels. But even with it, players soon made it moot by power leveling with higher level healers, and cherrypicking the easiest camps to exp on with the weakest mobs.

    Not sure what the solution is to it though, I agree some risk is needed, but its hard to do without punishing failure, which you don't want to do. You want people to put on their A-game, but you don't want people to not be willing to fail because they lose a tremendous amount from doing so.

  • lisubablisubab Member Posts: 670
    Originally posted by flydowntome


    Death penalties don't really draw me any more. The heavier the penalty, the more it encourages conservative play. If dying takes 10% of your exp, you are not going to be willing to die 3-4 times very often, even if experimentation often requires it, or you need to because you are running newbies through it.
    FFXI had this problem with missions, chains of promathia especially. The death penalties and difficulty of the missions prevented a lot of people from helping out with them once they completed it, so SE removed death penalties in many fights. The death penalty in general is steep in FFXI, 10% exp loss on death unless raised, and possibility to lose levels. But even with it, players soon made it moot by power leveling with higher level healers, and cherrypicking the easiest camps to exp on with the weakest mobs.
    Not sure what the solution is to it though, I agree some risk is needed, but its hard to do without punishing failure, which you don't want to do. You want people to put on their A-game, but you don't want people to not be willing to fail because they lose a tremendous amount from doing so.



     

    It all depends if the game is fun, relative to other games out there.

    Back in Diablo days when there aren't many good MMOs out there, people play Diablo 2 with perma death, and since Diablo 2 is about the most fun game out there, you will be playing anyway.  Dying just means starting all over, and it is still fun, relatively.  I usually do this: give all loot and hoarding to one of my alts (friend's account) to hold onto.  Just wear those I need essentially, no gold.  I trade with the alt.  So if I die, I start over and lose only those gear he wears.  After every run, I hand over the new loot to the alt.  With this arrangement, I minimise the loss, and I got to keep playing, restarting when I lose the character to perma death.

    This is fun up to a point.  When better games comes out, I will not do that anymore.

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,694
    Originally posted by heremypet


    At this point, death is becoming no penalty and in some cases is reward (free travel).

    Sad but true.  Naked suicide runs to complete a quest is another hallmark of having no death penalty.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,694
    Originally posted by Decimatus


     Contra!?!?! - If you could beat this game without using "The Code", you were a god among men. 

    I would just like to say I was among the few and the proud :) 

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • LansidLansid Member Posts: 1,097
    Originally posted by Shastra


     

    Originally posted by dave6660


    Originally posted by Decimatus
     
     Contra!?!?! - If you could beat this game without using "The Code", you were a god among men. 

    I would just like to say I was among the few and the proud :) 

     

     

    That pretty much sums up this whole threads point.

    "There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."

  • QuantumQrackQuantumQrack Member UncommonPosts: 81
    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by heremypet


    At this point, death is becoming no penalty and in some cases is reward (free travel).

    Sad but true.  Naked suicide runs to complete a quest is another hallmark of having no death penalty.



     

    Agree 100%.  MMos these days are becoming instant gratification entertainment to satisfy a newer generation of gamers where all they want is instant gratification unfortunately.  For me, I would rather have a somewhat harsh death penalty a la everquest.  The sense of accomplishment just doesn't seem to be there any more for a lot of MMO's.

    The modern MMO these days is simply a single player game with chat.  A lot of the time you don't have to group to accomplish goals.  I prefer that you basically have to group to get through a lot of the game content.  And if your group screws up, then you pay a penalty for it, i.e. a decent death penalty.  Loss of items, loss of xp.  Also, a loss of standing of some kind, reputation maybe.

  • dlunasdlunas Member UncommonPosts: 206
    Originally posted by Calcedon

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by heremypet


    At this point, death is becoming no penalty and in some cases is reward (free travel).

    Sad but true.  Naked suicide runs to complete a quest is another hallmark of having no death penalty.



     

    Agree 100%.  MMos these days are becoming instant gratification entertainment to satisfy a newer generation of gamers where all they want is instant gratification unfortunately.  For me, I would rather have a somewhat harsh death penalty a la everquest.  The sense of accomplishment just doesn't seem to be there any more for a lot of MMO's.

    The modern MMO these days is simply a single player game with chat.  A lot of the time you don't have to group to accomplish goals.  I prefer that you basically have to group to get through a lot of the game content.  And if your group screws up, then you pay a penalty for it, i.e. a decent death penalty.  Loss of items, loss of xp.  Also, a loss of standing of some kind, reputation maybe.

     

    Well said.  I kept stopping myself from actually jumping in the conversation, but I'll just point to that post as summing up what I felt like saying :D

  • bdewbdew Member Posts: 192

    I'm currently playing EVE and the death penalty causes much more harm than good.

    No one wants to risk anything, people just don't fight unless they have 2x or more numbers or ship class. Or you actively prevent them from running. You never see any interesting ships or modules in battle because no one wants to lose them.

    I for one hope JG:E will be have no real death penalty as i'm sick of spending evenings flying all over the universe and not getting eve one good fight because everybody docks/logs.

  • EbenEben Member Posts: 522
    Originally posted by Shastra


     



     

    This is sig-worthy.  =D

    Katsma is Lithuanian for 'he who drinks used douche fluid'.

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135
    Originally posted by bdew


    I'm currently playing EVE and the death penalty causes much more harm than good.
    No one wants to risk anything, people just don't fight unless they have 2x or more numbers or ship class. Or you actively prevent them from running. You never see any interesting ships or modules in battle because no one wants to lose them.
    I for one hope JG:E will be have no real death penalty as i'm sick of spending evenings flying all over the universe and not getting eve one good fight because everybody docks/logs.

     

    While it's true that a lot of people are scared of risk, a well designed game (like EVE) can make it not only tolerable, but an integral part of the game itself. The problem is that many games focus too much on the penalty itself, and not how much about how hard it is to get back lost progression due to death.  The 2nd component is just as important to an enjoyable death penalty if not more important.

    Players don't mind dying as much if it's not only rewarding, but fun to get your things back.

  • heremypetheremypet Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 528

    One solution is to increase the death penalty as you approach "end-game", which would make it, like challenging and stuff.  Then once you hit level cap you could opt to switch to ultra death penalty mode and level further. Finally, at the last level cap you can opt for perma-death mode and level even further still. 

    Yea, I know, I should start charging for these.  Could you imagine a permadeath guy some 20 levels above everyone else, running around wreaking havok on everything, and everyone trying to kill him? lol I would so be there.

    "Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."

  • KorhindiKorhindi Member CommonPosts: 395

    Why not take the penalties for failure in play to another level?

    How about this, in addition to death penalties that cause a loss of loot and XP, there also should be penalties for griefing, killing those in your own faction, guild betrayal, ninja looting, and so on.

    I am thinking that Oblivion has the right idea:  Jail.  You grief or attack your own faction, for instance, your toon is sent to jail.

    While in jail, the toon is unplayable and cannot exchange currency or items.  The length in time would vary from 1 day to several months based on the nature of the offense and on the history of the offender, with repeat offenders getting longer and longer sentences.

    And just like Oblivion, skills and XP deteriorate while incarcerated, so one could loose levels and abilities if in long enough.

    A death penalty (as in capital punishment) could even be used where egregious offenders find their toons deleted.

    Or how about the idea where a community can vote a ninja looting asshat off a server (the number of votes required to be determined by the DEVs)?

    And when such offenders log in, an "Amber Alert" like message notifies all the players of this person's presence and crimes.

    Now, THAT would be "HardCore."

  • KyntorKyntor Member Posts: 280
    Originally posted by Yavln


    I wish to open the topic of death penalties for discussion, I know this has been done a shed load of times over the past years, but it's something that is at the fore front of my mind at the moment and it's something I want to talk about.
    I have been playing MMO's  .......



     To me, death penalties are the very small tip of a much larger iceberg called "consequences."  Most games seem to want to eliminate consequences.  They eliminate death penaltes so that dying has no consequences.  They eliminate downtime so that inefficiencey and stupidity has no consequences.  They allow people to change their names and race so that behaving like an anonymous internet twit has no consequence.  They turn psychopathy into a mini game so that in-game behavior has no consequence.  They allow people to redo thier skill/specs/points so that decisions have no consequence.  The list can go on and on.  Your post might just be about death penalties, but don't forget the bigger picture.

     

    Of course, there are a lot of people who cares absolutely nothing about real consequences.  I hope you are not one of them.  They seem to enjoy harsh death penalties only so that they can inflict more pain as they gank.

     

    "Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,694
    Originally posted by Shastra


     

    Originally posted by dave6660


    Originally posted by Decimatus
     
     Contra!?!?! - If you could beat this game without using "The Code", you were a god among men. 





    I would just like to say I was among the few and the proud :) 

     

     

    It's a joke, lighten up.  Maybe you need to take some of your own advice.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

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