One thing makes me wonder. If there is more builders/carebears then PKers and all that bad, sadistic PKers are bad in fair pvp cowards, why carebears have such a problem with giving them a taste of their own medicine. If is so few people who enjoy open pvp, what stands on your way to claim your rights to a point of interest by force ? How hard is it to cooperate with other carebears, gather a group, jump out of a saze zone, get what you want from the wilderness ( resources, money, quest etc ) and come back to safety. Stop thinking about yourself so highly and pretend to be a lonely hero in a game there is no place for them.
Is that hard to interact and cooperate with people in MMO game in order to achieve a common goal ?
Well everyone has to remember back in UO days, all you had was...UO. So it was inevitable that they would split the game into between PvP and PvE .
Now today there's multiple MMOs each catering for multiple crowds, especially for the carebear crowd. I'd even go as far as saying PvP in it's full unrestricted glory is NICHE, just like UO was NICHE. I'd even wager if you want your MMO to cater for the mainstream, look at the carebear needs first, because that's your mainstream crowd right there.
So if a game launch and it's free for all PvP with full looting, it does not take a genius to know this game is not going to be bigger than UO. How big was UO anyway? Only a really hardcore crowd actually like this type of play without consequences and rules.
Now unlike UO days, players now have a CHOICE. Don't like pvp and looting? Play another MMO..done. The real challenge for games such as Darkfall and MO is , what do you do if only a tiny % of the market actually WANTS a game like that? I actually love the idea of Darkfall, the mechanics of it, but i don't like the unrestricted PvP..hence i'll never play the game. It's not Darkfall's fault, i got lots of options, but ultimately i think people overestimate how many players actually LIKE games where everything is down to the playerbase to control...
A developer has the choice to stick it out with their hardcore crowd and maybe never grow beyond 100k subs, or pull in some of the carebear crowd by adding restrictions and rules. At some stage it WILL come down to money.....
One thing makes me wonder. If there is more builders/carebears then PKers and all that bad, sadistic PKers are bad in fair pvp cowards, why carebears have such a problem with giving them a taste of their own medicine. If is so few people who enjoy open pvp, what stands on your way to claim your rights to a point of interest by force ? How hard is it to cooperate with other carebears, gather a group, jump out of a saze zone, get what you want from the wilderness ( resources, money, quest etc ) and come back to safety. Stop thinking about yourself so highly and pretend to be a lonely hero in a game there is no place for them. Is that hard to interact and cooperate with people in MMO game in order to achieve a common goal ?
I can only reply to this through the way pvp evolved in UO. At first it was usually solo pvpers attacking others, but the reds eventually found it safer to group and they would usually only fight when they had superior numbers or their opponents were involved with a pve battle also. UO's portal system made it very hard to locate the groups of reds also. Being anti red was a far harder job than being a red.
The PKs may need the carebears, but the carebears don't need the PKs. The article is mostly about a PK'er who is understanding that there wont be easy bullying in mortals online because the carebears will never go there since there are like 200 other games they can go to. And the author don't like that thought. The problem with PK'ers is that most of them don't really want to look for an exiting fight. They want to hurt other people who can't defend themselves. They are in fact just bullies, cowards that don't deserve any satisfaction. And that is where the author is quite wrong. The anti PK'ers are not looking to bully someone else, they are looking for a real fight! That's what makes them better people than the reds. Seriously I love the idea that "red" players will be bored to hell even in mortal online because there will be no easy targets to kill. They don't deserve that fun seriously. They deserve to sit down and be whupped by people who really know how to PvP.
I agree completely,
The whole article went sour for me when she started talking about how creating two worlds was a bad thing. If the game had made two servers, one PvP and one no PvP then the PK'ers would have no one to pick on and yah the game would suck for them because they had nothign to do LOL. So what? I am not paying money so that I can increase the enjoyment of people whose enjoyment is derived mostly or solely from being a douche in-game lol. I come in contact with enough douchebags in real life.
So that is when the article went sour; when she implied that it is a bad thing for the people uninterested in unrestricted PvP(ie Pking) to have their own world. Why? Because the Pk'ers would have nothign to do, and this would be unfortunate LOL... right so force people uninterested in that bullocks to play on the same servers... there is a reason this is not popular in games nowadays and never will be. Because it does not fly, and will not. Darkfall and games like that will always barely cover expenses because the game devs could not be bothered to create interesting ways to have PvP instead of unrestricted gangfests.
FF11 had some really great ways for players to play against one another and derive benefit from it, not just stats or numbers, or a big epeen ego. Other games do as well. "Carebears" will always play these games and games like MO will feel the sting if their sad games rely solely on sandbox PvP.
I found the article and her consistent use of a rediculous term like "carebear" a sad attempt at shock value and to warm up to the epeeners, who-sadly- number so many on the interwebs. I think she plugged MO a lot and tried to make PK'ers feel that their epeening antics are OK. In a world where the big bully on the block(America) is giving us a real life version of PK'ing, I would like to think we do not need to promote that filth in the video games we play for fun.
The PKs may need the carebears, but the carebears don't need the PKs...
I agree completely,
The whole article...
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless.
I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas.
Take away the PKers and the carebears are happy. They play the game and go on.
It is the PKers who need the carebears. Not only do they need a target rich environment, but they feed off the chaos and havoc they create amongst the carebears. No carebears to cry and whine = sheer boredom for the PK/Griefer.
Most Pkers in MMO's are not into the challenge of a good and fair fight, for those folks who enjoy "the sport" are already playing Medal of Honor, Counterstrike and so on.
No, PKers see themselves as the lions preying on the wilderbeasts. But get this, wilderbeasts do just fine where there are no lions, but lions die out really fast when the prey is gone. Sure, the wilderbeast population might explode and then many die due to starvation, but in the end, there still will be wilderbeasts.
A carebear MMO can function just fine without PVP (PKers or not).
PKers cannot function without the targets... I mean... carebears.
The PKs may need the carebears, but the carebears don't need the PKs...
I agree completely,
The whole article...
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless.
I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas.
this bullshit needs to stop
lowest group of society?
some people enjoy killing, ruining someone elses good time in video games because they are professionals etc..etc.. can't do it in real life
you know, the same reason some of you fruitcakes roleplay with "women" (other guys) in video games... well they're roleplaying out a killer.. right because everyones arguement is that all games are about roleplaying (nfl madden 2010 too)
so get over this lowest group of society crap, its not all teenagers, its not all scumbags living with their parents playing for 14 hours straight....
you are all so self righteous its not even funny
Actually they can do that in RL... they are called Criminals....
Anyways, I do agree with you that it is not just the teens, for anyone has the power to be an asshat.
The fact is, it depends on the game. In PVP based games, whining about getting Pked is juvenile. After all, what part of PVP did the player not get?
However, bullying and griefing (PVP game or not) can cross the line as to what an entire playerbase deems acceptable, and at that point, those folks who choose to engage in such behavior will be labelled as the "Dregs of Society" or the "lowest of the low."
In this case, the PKers have no one to blame but themselves, and they should understand that is the "cost of doing business" just as getting gunned down by the cops or going to jail is for criminals.
And yes, most societies see criminals as being the lowest of the low, except, maybe in the US, where Lawyers and Politicians are hated more.
this bullshit needs to stop lowest group of society? some people enjoy killing, ruining someone elses good time in video games because they are professionals etc..etc.. can't do it in real life you know, the same reason some of you fruitcakes roleplay with "women" (other guys) in video games... well they're roleplaying out a killer.. right because everyones arguement is that all games are about roleplaying (nfl madden 2010 too) so get over this lowest group of society crap, its not all teenagers, its not all scumbags living with their parents playing for 14 hours straight....
you are all so self righteous its not even funny
Yes, "lowest group of society". Sociopaths might be a better term. Anyone who sets out to ruin someone else's fun and considers it their own fun to do so, regardless of what their social position is in real life, is a sociopath. We call them "griefers" in the online world; certainly you've heard that term. If, in real life, someone were to just randomly beat you senseless, they would be thrown in jail if they were caught. Since they can't ruin someone's day in real life, they should be allowed to do it in a game? In what universe does this make sense? There's nothing wrong with open-PVP at all, but do not expect everyone to play in it without some rule of law, just as nobody would want to live in an area of the world without rule of law. Oh and I agree with the "fruitcakes" remark - that's just odd.
I do hate to bring it up, but Runescape up until fairly recently did a very good job creating a symbiotic relationship betweeing PKing and Crafting.
As a Crafter, I never had to enter the PKing zone (the wilderness) unless I chose to. Yet the PKers and anti-PKers went through crafted items like mad. It created a vibrant, dynamic encomy for crafted goods where crafters actually profited from their trade at almost all levels of the game.
However, in their attempt to quash real world trading Jagex, the makers of Runescape, basically changed the game completely, and this balance was destroyed. Jagex has been trying to pick up the pieces ever since.
While Runescape sucks at a lot of things (graphics, actual gameplay), they did do some fundamental things regarding in-game dynamics and mechanics very well that made for a great sense of community (although the community itself was often rather suspect as well). I have always said that a person could make a very successful living by following some of their successful examples and adding other techniques proven successful by other games.
If you made a technologically up-to-date Runescape (i.e., lose the browser dependence), with some semblance of an end-game; more quests; reduce the never-before-seen-grinding on 24 separate skills... but keep the cross-realm/server interactivity; reinstated the "lose everything on death but get nice rewards" PvP, leaving it optional, you could have very near the perfect game.
Or so I would think.
EDIT: I'd like to add that part of the old world RS economy was the fact that there were a decent number of players buying in-game items/coins with Real World Money. The reason PKers/Duelers had so much cash to spend on crafted items was that they bought in-game currency.
I think this can be addressed by a game have more atificial injections of currency for in-game PKs. Gold farmers were, in essence, an artificial injection of in-game currency because, as far as the game was concerned, players got currency for nothing in-game. They paid cash in the real world.
I do hate to bring it up, but Runescape up until fairly recently did a very good job creating a symbiotic relationship betweeing PKing and Crafting.
As a Crafter, I never had to enter the PKing zone (the wilderness) unless I chose to. Yet the PKers and anti-PKers went through crafted items like mad. It created a vibrant, dynamic encomy for crafted goods where crafters actually profited from their trade at almost all levels of the game.
However, in their attempt to quash real world trading Jagex, the makers of Runescape, basically changed the game completely, and this balance was destroyed. Jagex has been trying to pick up the pieces ever since.
While Runescape sucks at a lot of things (graphics, actual gameplay), they did do some fundamental things regarding in-game dynamics and mechanics very well that made for a great sense of community (although the community itself was often rather suspect as well). I have always said that a person could make a very successful living by following some of their successful examples and adding other techniques proven successful by other games.
If you made a technologically up-to-date Runescape (i.e., lose the browser dependence), with some semblance of an end-game; more quests; reduce the never-before-seen-grinding on 24 separate skills... but keep the cross-realm/server interactivity; reinstated the "lose everything on death but get nice rewards" PvP, leaving it optional, you could have very near the perfect game.
Or so I would think.
EDIT: I'd like to add that part of the old world RS economy was the fact that there were a decent number of players buying in-game items/coins with Real World Money. The reason PKers/Duelers had so much cash to spend on crafted items was that they bought in-game currency.
I think this can be addressed by a game have more atificial injections of currency for in-game PKs. Gold farmers were, in essence, an artificial injection of in-game currency because, as far as the game was concerned, players got currency for nothing in-game. They paid cash in the real world.
Agreed. The only good thing about runescape's skill system is the fact very few hit max levels, hence endgame-content isn't really required in the same sense as other games.
Also, more quests? To be fair, runescape probably have the best quests in the mmorpg-world at the moment (say what you will about the game, but the quests are actually enjoyable). There's also quite many to do and unlike most games it can take you hours to complete the quests.
Since when do true carebears need PKers? Take away the PKers and the carebears are happy. They play the game and go on. It is the PKers who need the carebears. Not only do they need a target rich environment, but they feed off the chaos and havoc they create amongst the carebears. No carebears to cry and whine = sheer boredom for the PK/Griefer. Most Pkers in MMO's are not into the challenge of a good and fair fight, for those folks who enjoy "the sport" are already playing Medal of Honor, Counterstrike and so on. No, PKers see themselves as the lions preying on the wilderbeasts. But get this, wilderbeasts do just fine where there are no lions, but lions die out really fast when the prey is gone. Sure, the wilderbeast population might explode and then many die due to starvation, but in the end, there still will be wilderbeasts. A carebear MMO can function just fine without PVP (PKers or not). PKers cannot function without the targets... I mean... carebears.
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP.
Since when do true carebears need PKers? Take away the PKers and the carebears are happy. They play the game and go on. It is the PKers who need the carebears. Not only do they need a target rich environment, but they feed off the chaos and havoc they create amongst the carebears. No carebears to cry and whine = sheer boredom for the PK/Griefer. Most Pkers in MMO's are not into the challenge of a good and fair fight, for those folks who enjoy "the sport" are already playing Medal of Honor, Counterstrike and so on. No, PKers see themselves as the lions preying on the wilderbeasts. But get this, wilderbeasts do just fine where there are no lions, but lions die out really fast when the prey is gone. Sure, the wilderbeast population might explode and then many die due to starvation, but in the end, there still will be wilderbeasts. A carebear MMO can function just fine without PVP (PKers or not). PKers cannot function without the targets... I mean... carebears.
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP.
Since when do true carebears need PKers? Take away the PKers and the carebears are happy. They play the game and go on. It is the PKers who need the carebears. Not only do they need a target rich environment, but they feed off the chaos and havoc they create amongst the carebears. No carebears to cry and whine = sheer boredom for the PK/Griefer. Most Pkers in MMO's are not into the challenge of a good and fair fight, for those folks who enjoy "the sport" are already playing Medal of Honor, Counterstrike and so on. No, PKers see themselves as the lions preying on the wilderbeasts. But get this, wilderbeasts do just fine where there are no lions, but lions die out really fast when the prey is gone. Sure, the wilderbeast population might explode and then many die due to starvation, but in the end, there still will be wilderbeasts. A carebear MMO can function just fine without PVP (PKers or not). PKers cannot function without the targets... I mean... carebears.
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP.
Good mmo's are designed for pvp too.
Then I've yet to see a good one. I've played almost all of the major and many of the minor MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that does PvP anything like as well as the FPS games I mentioned. Thats hardly surprising when one notes the differences in the game types. That having been said, I see no real point in MMO PvP. Its much too prone to ganking/griefing, and none of the counter systems that have been dreamed up over the years have done much to counter that.
Then I've yet to see a good one. I've played almost all of the major and many of the minor MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that does PvP anything like as well as the FPS games I mentioned. Thats hardly surprising when one notes the differences in the game types. That having been said, I see no real point in MMO PvP. Its much too prone to ganking/griefing, and none of the counter systems that have been dreamed up over the years have done much to counter that.
The reason here is simple. Developers have tried to make it "fair". "Fair" here meaning no punishment for the PKers for playing that end of their game. But no matter what you do, if the system is fair to the PKers, then they will continue to PK, and everyone else will continue to trickle out of said game.
And again, you see no real point to MMO PvP (justifiable so) because games aren't designed to make PvP important to the game world. Lets face it, most of these "MMO's" are not much more than single player games with multiplayer functionality. They are not true social worlds, only social in communication and club membership. But the "social" does not extend into the game worlds, and has no meaning to that world. These worlds are dead backdrops. Nothing more. You can't affect them, and they can't affect you. They are only there to support the level grind.
Carebear who needs pks. I find myself joining and liking open world pvp games, even though, once I'm in them, I don't find myself pking often. At first I thought it was because UO came out in middleschool and early highschool and the only 'cool' excuse you could have for playing a fantasy online game was killing other players listening to bad metal.
Now its because I like games that don't limit me arbitrarily. I know games out now are for the lowest common denominator, and so they have to make them easy with no consequences etc, but the nice thing about open pvp is the part it plays in sandbox games.
When you really want crafting, trading, carting/hauling, locations etc to be important, you need open pvp. Without it, noone ever looses their gear, so you have things like arbitrary NO TRADE etc, where for some reason most of the things you own will disintigrate if you hand it to someone else. These kind of arbitrary rules move the game more towards a mario-esque experience. They're damn fun (note I'm playing EQ2), but I also like to play games where the way I Play is the important thing, not how long I play (since in a rails based game the only variable is how far down the tracks you are).
What people have difficulty getting right is the consequence for pvp. If you make it too low, you end up with an FPS where everyone just kills everyone else, a gank/grief fest everyone here is complaining about. You make it high enough, its a high risk game, but with big wins for those that decide to PK. Those who live outside society should have a difficult time doing so, just as they do in real life. As a combat character, it should be much easier to guard a caravan for money than hide in a bush, attack them and hope that a swarm of people don't blob you to get the little bonus they'd get from killing a criminal.
Don't limit my options like I need training wheels. I mean that for open-pvp too; make pvp the ONLY viable option and you are limiting me as well.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo. Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
All three groups need each other for the game's survival. Take away the carebear, and the anti-PK loses his mission; take away the anti-PK, and the tide turns red with grief; take away the PKer and - well, we've seen the ending of that story in countless MMOs. If Mortal Online, or any other game seeking to bring back the days of red, cares to see the success and popularity that Ultima Online made in those days, then the balance must be struck carefully between villain, hero, and heroine.
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Utterly wrong. It is the PvPers that destroy games, not your insultingly termed "carebears". Every PvP-centric MMO ever has gone down the drain thanks to PvPers for three simple reasons.
1. They are 10% or so of the game population.
2. They grief the other 90% out of the game unless stopped by the developers.
3. 10% of the population is not enough to keep the servers up, especially since many of the cowards then jump to a different game because all of their "carebears" are gone and they haven't the huevos to fight other PvPrs.
Eve Online is a perfect example of this. The lowsec wannabe "pirates" do not dare go into 0.0 where they could fight real PvPers. Instead they sit all day long camping a gate (the fixed spawn point entering in the zone), or fly around hoping to scan down some mission runner's area so they can jump them while the missioner is already engaged by NPCs. Or they go steal miner's ore from their cans to try to taunt the miner into fighting them with nothing for guns (mining lasers cannot be fired at other ships). Real brave, and the sole reason why people don't leave 0.0 to go explore and fight in lowsec, eventually moving on to 0.0 space - the griefers are camping the way there.
Now put those same people into a game where people are trying to play their characters in the game - "charbears" if you will. They will fight if it's right for their char, but otherwise, they're engaged in learning the game, exploring, building things, and generally having fun. Here comes the PvP griefer, exploiting anything they can to screw up the game for someone who is trying to actually play it.
Here's a true story of my first PvP experience ever, on the first PvP server in EQ1. I logged in for the very first time and BAM - a 5th level one-shotted my 1st level char with a sword. I logged in again - BAM the same thing. This utter @sshat had nothing better to do with his time than stand at the newbie spawn spot and kill brand new characters for the 2 copper and lint in their pockets. Seriously.
Even after I skillfully evaded his next attack, got out of his sight around a tree and used my racial hide to go invisible on him and thus evaded his bullcrap spawncamping - beating him with nothing but pure SKILL in playing my char, mind you - do you think I was all happy and pleased and wanted to keep playing?
HELL NO. If the developers of the game are happy with that kind of bullsh8 happening, I am not happy with the developers of the game and will not pay them my money. I sat down, logged off and said "Good luck paying for the server all by yourselves, @sshats";.
Here's another example - my beloved Planetside, a 100% PvP game where you can shoot everyone that isn't the same color as you. There shouldn't be any reason or need to grief or exploit, right? 'Cause it's 100% PvP. But still, about 10% of the population found exploits to pad their killcounts at the expense of the actual gameplay for everyone else. In a 100% PvP game where all you do is shoot other PvPers! But that just wasn't enough for the @sshats in the crowd, they had to be exploiting schmucks and ruin the fun for others with hotdropping, wallhumping, and haxing.
Bottom line - the so-called "unafraid" PvPers are the ones that kill PvP games with their need to be cowardly griefers and exploiters. Kick those lowlives out of the game, and you'll see your "carebears" out there playing as the game was intended to be played, including fighting wars.
For evidence, I refer you to Eve Online's Eve University, a massive carebear corp if there ever was one, intended to coddle up new players until they are ready to play the game on their own. Their war record and killboard tells the tale of how wussy and tame they are.
I'm still amazed on how many ppl call ganking PVP. Actually not ganking, but low lvl PKs. As i said i would mind if some1 around my lvl would try or even succed to PK me...that might make the game interesting....PKing a newbie with an high lvl toon on the other hand....
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
Crafting and PvE is made just about a hundred times more interesting if the resources available are contested by other players and factions via PvP. This creates a metagame, which elevates the entire gaming experience. For this reason, carebears benefit from the system as well. Just look at EVE. Most people there are carebears.
Whaaat? Most so called "carebears" in Eve are in high security space. Where resources are not won by combat, they're just there for the taking.
Question, are YOU a crafting carebear who enjoys the thrill of being hunted by PKers while you try to harvest? No? then don't speak for others, you're obviously just trying to tell a big lie here.
While this is not a review of Mortal Online, this article gives a very favourable impression of it. I am interested in that MMO myself, but it has had some severe problems as can be seen if you go to the forums for MO here.
While this is not a review of Mortal Online, this article gives a very favourable impression of it. I am interested in that MMO myself, but it has had some severe problems as can be seen if you go to the forums for MO here.
I've noticed that. The graphics in the video looked great. Its too bad they are so badly limiting the demographic they appeal to. Lets hope we don't have another Dark Fail on our hands here.
Crafting and PvE is made just about a hundred times more interesting if the resources available are contested by other players and factions via PvP. This creates a metagame, which elevates the entire gaming experience. For this reason, carebears benefit from the system as well. Just look at EVE. Most people there are carebears.
Whaaat? Most so called "carebears" in Eve are in high security space. Where resources are not won by combat, they're just there for the taking.
Question, are YOU a crafting carebear who enjoys the thrill of being hunted by PKers while you try to harvest? No? then don't speak for others, you're obviously just trying to tell a big lie here.
You're confusing "carebears" with "casual players who never get to the endgame".
The production/trading/transporting/mining/maintenance/logistics in lowsec is a lot more impressive and interesting than empire auction houses, and A LOT more important. The carebears down in 0.0 are plenty.
Also, I've never had problems avoiding PKers so I can't say I've ever been part of the massive carebear slaughter every other carebear seems to always be a part of. I wonder if most casual carebears have ever even played a PvP centric game with loss upon death.
Then I've yet to see a good one. I've played almost all of the major and many of the minor MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that does PvP anything like as well as the FPS games I mentioned. Thats hardly surprising when one notes the differences in the game types. That having been said, I see no real point in MMO PvP. Its much too prone to ganking/griefing, and none of the counter systems that have been dreamed up over the years have done much to counter that.
Lineage 2 Is a good game with Full pvp . You barely see any reds , and they have lots of different pvp systems that makes the game quite enjoyable ( castle siege , fortress siege , clan hall siege ( yes they all 3 are sieges , but they are completely different , normal pvp , olympiad etc )
And Mortal Online wont do the same mistakes as Darkfall. Once you become red , you are flagged as murderer for the next 20 hours IN-GAME , and also every time you die , if you are Red , you will lose skils. 4% , 8% , 10% (is the max capacity for losing skils).
I sayed , EVERY time you Die , if you Are red . Dont take this as "Every time you die or , When you become red "
I actually think that full PvP is a really great options for a MMO. I always wanted to role-play a Thief/Murderer , but few games gave me this opportunity . Mortal Online will give it , and I dont really care If I get back to Skils : 0 as long as I get to play the way I want. If you cant suffer the consequences , then dont become a PK . Reds should be the elite of PvP , the daredevils of the game, Not a bunch of 12 years old kids , ganking on everybody and wasting people's time and efforts.
Well it's an interesting point of view but I think it's more an excuse of lazy design that has created this rift.
Asking for balance in MMOs these days would be like seeing realistic scenario in game trailers or simply put like asking for non scantly clad babes with buns bigger than the baker running around in the snow weilding armour and swords as if they were attatched between the thin chain holding those buns in place.
I'm plain bored we the choices out there for MMOs and your articles proves that you are either one of three groups, yet there is a fourth and fifth group just waiting for a decent MMO to play.
I don't need to go into the particulars as I'm certain there are more group types undiscovered. Until something changes I've gone back to single player games and hope that someone out there developing has some brains to realise this pathetic attitude to designing.
With regards to a balanced PVP environment the best game I ever played was and still is Dragonrealms by the good people at Simultronics. Having just come off a long stint on a much more hack and slash based game Medievia, I was looking for a more calm natured game, and Dragonrealms happened to be in open beta at the time - on AOL of all things.
For those wondering WTF - yes these are real games, yes they are _text based_, and yes they are still around and doing well - as well as a non-graphical MMO can do nowadays I suppose.
Back to Dragonrealms though - this game had a lot going for it in terms of balance. First off, it had what might be considered an early version of EVE Online's system security rating. If you were in good standing with the law and inside one of the major cities, even an attempt by another player at PKing you would garner a quick reaction from the city guards who would haul them off to jail or if they resisted put a spear in their gut. It was very unlikely a player could get away with murder in a city without being murdered by the guards in return. This is something I think is desired in many MMOs - in reality a lot of players want a semblence of the real world in their MMO play experience. If someone tries to steal your stuff there should be consequences, if someone tries to kill you there should be even greater consequences. There should be some basic laws and some enforcement of those laws, and this has to be pretty much automated in a game - even the most avid anti-PKers don't want to spend all their time doing law enforcement in a virtual world. On the flip side, players also want a sense of danger, which Dragonrealms provided - wander out of the major cities and you're in a lawless land, you can get robbed and killed, or be the one doing the robbing and killing. In this manner the "carebears" could have their world and the PKers their world, and the two were able to mix to a degree with well known and well understood consequences for both sides.
As if the above mechanics weren't enough to cater to all sides, Dragonrealms had the ultimate in "carebear" classes, the Empath. Empaths are the standard healing class that you'll find in any MMO, but with a twist. Mechanically quite distinct, the Empath had to transfer the wounds of the injured to their own body first before they could heal the wounds away. And when I say wounds I mean wounds - the gash on the left arm, the severed foot, the paralyzed spinal cord, the crossbow bolt in the tongue (no joke!) - not just the bucket of missing hitpoints. The damage system in this game is amazingly detailed to say the least but I digress (again). What made the Empath truly special was the restriction that in order to use Empathic powers the Empath must _completely shun all violence_. Give a rabid sewer rat so much as a papercut and you would be looking at something like a real-time day without your healing capabilities without aid from fellow Empaths to share the burden of the spiritual trauma.
This restriction had far-reaching consequences for how gameplay would unfold. Any players in the game involved in combat would eventually become injured, and therefore would eventually end up at the Empath's door (yes you could obtain healing in other manners such as paying NPCs or obtaining potions, etc, but these methods were always more difficult, more costly, or less effective than an Empath visit). So everyone needed an Empath friend, and thus the ultimate "carebear" class had everyone knocking at their door to heal them - and what better way to requisition the services of the one class restricted to non-combat than to offer your own combat abilities to them should the need arise?
It became a social taboo to attack any city-bound Empath (one who stayed mostly to the main cities providing their services to the injured in the local hospitals) to the point that even an attempted PK on one would garner a widespread reaction. Sometimes an annoying character might show up and disrupt the usual goings-on of a hospital area by being as annoying as possible without triggering the city guards, but this could be dealt with easily by two high-ranking empaths agreeing to call the hospital staff and have the offender ejected and barred entry for a time - another excellent anti-griefing mechanic.
At the same time Empaths were not entirely barred from PVP or dungeon crawling experiences, one could train in shields and other defensive abilities and march into battle at the rear, healing the wounded and sending them back to work - with the understanding that you better be able to run fast if the combantants on your side fell, else risk a (rightfully deserved) shank in the ribs. Bottom line, as a city Empath unless you openly pissed someone off no one in their right mind would try to PK you just for the sake of griefing unless they wanted to meet a quick death at the hands of the guards or become infamous among the anti-PKers, and as a combat Empath you could get a taste of PVP with the understanding that you forfeit some of your "immunity".
This symbiosis made the "triangle" discussed in the OP balance out - essentially there were still PKers, anti-PKers, and in the end the "carebear" Empaths cleaned up the mess and advanced in their class for doing so. An extremely well done system and something I have been dying to see the likes of in a graphical MMO, but so far no luck. It has never made sense to me that as a healing class, in any game, you gain access to your more powerful healing abilities by doing what is in my mind the most ironic thing possible - killing tons and tons of mobs. Dragonrealms was probably one of two games I've played where there was a legitamate way to play and enjoy the game without the need for combat, and by far the best on execution. Simulatronics has been working on Hero's Journey for ages now with no announced release date but I'm still hopeful that it will come and when it does it will have some aspect of this perserved in it.
Comments
One thing makes me wonder. If there is more builders/carebears then PKers and all that bad, sadistic PKers are bad in fair pvp cowards, why carebears have such a problem with giving them a taste of their own medicine. If is so few people who enjoy open pvp, what stands on your way to claim your rights to a point of interest by force ? How hard is it to cooperate with other carebears, gather a group, jump out of a saze zone, get what you want from the wilderness ( resources, money, quest etc ) and come back to safety. Stop thinking about yourself so highly and pretend to be a lonely hero in a game there is no place for them.
Is that hard to interact and cooperate with people in MMO game in order to achieve a common goal ?
Well everyone has to remember back in UO days, all you had was...UO. So it was inevitable that they would split the game into between PvP and PvE .
Now today there's multiple MMOs each catering for multiple crowds, especially for the carebear crowd. I'd even go as far as saying PvP in it's full unrestricted glory is NICHE, just like UO was NICHE. I'd even wager if you want your MMO to cater for the mainstream, look at the carebear needs first, because that's your mainstream crowd right there.
So if a game launch and it's free for all PvP with full looting, it does not take a genius to know this game is not going to be bigger than UO. How big was UO anyway? Only a really hardcore crowd actually like this type of play without consequences and rules.
Now unlike UO days, players now have a CHOICE. Don't like pvp and looting? Play another MMO..done. The real challenge for games such as Darkfall and MO is , what do you do if only a tiny % of the market actually WANTS a game like that? I actually love the idea of Darkfall, the mechanics of it, but i don't like the unrestricted PvP..hence i'll never play the game. It's not Darkfall's fault, i got lots of options, but ultimately i think people overestimate how many players actually LIKE games where everything is down to the playerbase to control...
A developer has the choice to stick it out with their hardcore crowd and maybe never grow beyond 100k subs, or pull in some of the carebear crowd by adding restrictions and rules. At some stage it WILL come down to money.....
I can only reply to this through the way pvp evolved in UO. At first it was usually solo pvpers attacking others, but the reds eventually found it safer to group and they would usually only fight when they had superior numbers or their opponents were involved with a pve battle also. UO's portal system made it very hard to locate the groups of reds also. Being anti red was a far harder job than being a red.
I agree completely,
The whole article went sour for me when she started talking about how creating two worlds was a bad thing. If the game had made two servers, one PvP and one no PvP then the PK'ers would have no one to pick on and yah the game would suck for them because they had nothign to do LOL. So what? I am not paying money so that I can increase the enjoyment of people whose enjoyment is derived mostly or solely from being a douche in-game lol. I come in contact with enough douchebags in real life.
So that is when the article went sour; when she implied that it is a bad thing for the people uninterested in unrestricted PvP(ie Pking) to have their own world. Why? Because the Pk'ers would have nothign to do, and this would be unfortunate LOL... right so force people uninterested in that bullocks to play on the same servers... there is a reason this is not popular in games nowadays and never will be. Because it does not fly, and will not. Darkfall and games like that will always barely cover expenses because the game devs could not be bothered to create interesting ways to have PvP instead of unrestricted gangfests.
FF11 had some really great ways for players to play against one another and derive benefit from it, not just stats or numbers, or a big epeen ego. Other games do as well. "Carebears" will always play these games and games like MO will feel the sting if their sad games rely solely on sandbox PvP.
I found the article and her consistent use of a rediculous term like "carebear" a sad attempt at shock value and to warm up to the epeeners, who-sadly- number so many on the interwebs. I think she plugged MO a lot and tried to make PK'ers feel that their epeening antics are OK. In a world where the big bully on the block(America) is giving us a real life version of PK'ing, I would like to think we do not need to promote that filth in the video games we play for fun.
WOOT
www.eorzeapedia.com
(Great FF14 source)
I agree completely,
The whole article...
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless.
I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas.
Since when do true carebears need PKers?
Take away the PKers and the carebears are happy. They play the game and go on.
It is the PKers who need the carebears. Not only do they need a target rich environment, but they feed off the chaos and havoc they create amongst the carebears. No carebears to cry and whine = sheer boredom for the PK/Griefer.
Most Pkers in MMO's are not into the challenge of a good and fair fight, for those folks who enjoy "the sport" are already playing Medal of Honor, Counterstrike and so on.
No, PKers see themselves as the lions preying on the wilderbeasts. But get this, wilderbeasts do just fine where there are no lions, but lions die out really fast when the prey is gone. Sure, the wilderbeast population might explode and then many die due to starvation, but in the end, there still will be wilderbeasts.
A carebear MMO can function just fine without PVP (PKers or not).
PKers cannot function without the targets... I mean... carebears.
I agree completely,
The whole article...
I agree with you both in that when open world pvp is around the lowest group of society tend to get the most fun out of a game at the expense of others. I personally enjoy pvp a lot, but I also like to do other things and not worry about some jerk just waiting for me to have a weak moment and come and finish me off after fighting something else. So I just avoid games that have pvp that I feel will just be more hassel then enjoyment, unless I want to join those that kill the helpless.
I personally enjoyed eve-onlines type of pvp systems. The world seemed safe if you were in empire space or in space controled by your alliance. It also had a lot of risk that helped get your heart rate up as you are traveling through space and see hostiles in the area. It also got lot of cooperation between players if they wanted to do things safely out in the dangerous areas.
this bullshit needs to stop
lowest group of society?
some people enjoy killing, ruining someone elses good time in video games because they are professionals etc..etc.. can't do it in real life
you know, the same reason some of you fruitcakes roleplay with "women" (other guys) in video games... well they're roleplaying out a killer.. right because everyones arguement is that all games are about roleplaying (nfl madden 2010 too)
so get over this lowest group of society crap, its not all teenagers, its not all scumbags living with their parents playing for 14 hours straight....
you are all so self righteous its not even funny
Actually they can do that in RL... they are called Criminals....
Anyways, I do agree with you that it is not just the teens, for anyone has the power to be an asshat.
The fact is, it depends on the game. In PVP based games, whining about getting Pked is juvenile. After all, what part of PVP did the player not get?
However, bullying and griefing (PVP game or not) can cross the line as to what an entire playerbase deems acceptable, and at that point, those folks who choose to engage in such behavior will be labelled as the "Dregs of Society" or the "lowest of the low."
In this case, the PKers have no one to blame but themselves, and they should understand that is the "cost of doing business" just as getting gunned down by the cops or going to jail is for criminals.
And yes, most societies see criminals as being the lowest of the low, except, maybe in the US, where Lawyers and Politicians are hated more.
Yes, "lowest group of society". Sociopaths might be a better term. Anyone who sets out to ruin someone else's fun and considers it their own fun to do so, regardless of what their social position is in real life, is a sociopath. We call them "griefers" in the online world; certainly you've heard that term. If, in real life, someone were to just randomly beat you senseless, they would be thrown in jail if they were caught. Since they can't ruin someone's day in real life, they should be allowed to do it in a game? In what universe does this make sense? There's nothing wrong with open-PVP at all, but do not expect everyone to play in it without some rule of law, just as nobody would want to live in an area of the world without rule of law. Oh and I agree with the "fruitcakes" remark - that's just odd.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
I do hate to bring it up, but Runescape up until fairly recently did a very good job creating a symbiotic relationship betweeing PKing and Crafting.
As a Crafter, I never had to enter the PKing zone (the wilderness) unless I chose to. Yet the PKers and anti-PKers went through crafted items like mad. It created a vibrant, dynamic encomy for crafted goods where crafters actually profited from their trade at almost all levels of the game.
However, in their attempt to quash real world trading Jagex, the makers of Runescape, basically changed the game completely, and this balance was destroyed. Jagex has been trying to pick up the pieces ever since.
While Runescape sucks at a lot of things (graphics, actual gameplay), they did do some fundamental things regarding in-game dynamics and mechanics very well that made for a great sense of community (although the community itself was often rather suspect as well). I have always said that a person could make a very successful living by following some of their successful examples and adding other techniques proven successful by other games.
If you made a technologically up-to-date Runescape (i.e., lose the browser dependence), with some semblance of an end-game; more quests; reduce the never-before-seen-grinding on 24 separate skills... but keep the cross-realm/server interactivity; reinstated the "lose everything on death but get nice rewards" PvP, leaving it optional, you could have very near the perfect game.
Or so I would think.
EDIT: I'd like to add that part of the old world RS economy was the fact that there were a decent number of players buying in-game items/coins with Real World Money. The reason PKers/Duelers had so much cash to spend on crafted items was that they bought in-game currency.
I think this can be addressed by a game have more atificial injections of currency for in-game PKs. Gold farmers were, in essence, an artificial injection of in-game currency because, as far as the game was concerned, players got currency for nothing in-game. They paid cash in the real world.
Agreed. The only good thing about runescape's skill system is the fact very few hit max levels, hence endgame-content isn't really required in the same sense as other games.
Also, more quests? To be fair, runescape probably have the best quests in the mmorpg-world at the moment (say what you will about the game, but the quests are actually enjoyable). There's also quite many to do and unlike most games it can take you hours to complete the quests.
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP.
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP.
Good mmo's are designed for pvp too.
Excellent points. Its not only that though. Most gankers/griefers would do rather poorly in a total PvP system. What they count on(no, what they must have) is unwilling/inexperienced targets. Put most of them in to a game with real PvP type players, and they would soon leave. We CareBears would do just fine without them. If I want PvP I'll go play UT3, Quake4 or Section 8. Games that have been designed from the ground up to be PvP.
Good mmo's are designed for pvp too.
Then I've yet to see a good one. I've played almost all of the major and many of the minor MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that does PvP anything like as well as the FPS games I mentioned. Thats hardly surprising when one notes the differences in the game types. That having been said, I see no real point in MMO PvP. Its much too prone to ganking/griefing, and none of the counter systems that have been dreamed up over the years have done much to counter that.
The reason here is simple. Developers have tried to make it "fair". "Fair" here meaning no punishment for the PKers for playing that end of their game. But no matter what you do, if the system is fair to the PKers, then they will continue to PK, and everyone else will continue to trickle out of said game.
And again, you see no real point to MMO PvP (justifiable so) because games aren't designed to make PvP important to the game world. Lets face it, most of these "MMO's" are not much more than single player games with multiplayer functionality. They are not true social worlds, only social in communication and club membership. But the "social" does not extend into the game worlds, and has no meaning to that world. These worlds are dead backdrops. Nothing more. You can't affect them, and they can't affect you. They are only there to support the level grind.
Once upon a time....
Carebear who needs pks. I find myself joining and liking open world pvp games, even though, once I'm in them, I don't find myself pking often. At first I thought it was because UO came out in middleschool and early highschool and the only 'cool' excuse you could have for playing a fantasy online game was killing other players listening to bad metal.
Now its because I like games that don't limit me arbitrarily. I know games out now are for the lowest common denominator, and so they have to make them easy with no consequences etc, but the nice thing about open pvp is the part it plays in sandbox games.
When you really want crafting, trading, carting/hauling, locations etc to be important, you need open pvp. Without it, noone ever looses their gear, so you have things like arbitrary NO TRADE etc, where for some reason most of the things you own will disintigrate if you hand it to someone else. These kind of arbitrary rules move the game more towards a mario-esque experience. They're damn fun (note I'm playing EQ2), but I also like to play games where the way I Play is the important thing, not how long I play (since in a rails based game the only variable is how far down the tracks you are).
What people have difficulty getting right is the consequence for pvp. If you make it too low, you end up with an FPS where everyone just kills everyone else, a gank/grief fest everyone here is complaining about. You make it high enough, its a high risk game, but with big wins for those that decide to PK. Those who live outside society should have a difficult time doing so, just as they do in real life. As a combat character, it should be much easier to guard a caravan for money than hide in a bush, attack them and hope that a swarm of people don't blob you to get the little bonus they'd get from killing a criminal.
Don't limit my options like I need training wheels. I mean that for open-pvp too; make pvp the ONLY viable option and you are limiting me as well.
Playing: DO Trial, EVE 1 Day Buy a PLEX promo.
Played: UO, EQ, AC, GW, WoW, CoX, EQ2, AoC, WURM Online, Ryzom, Eve Online, FE Trial
Genres: 4x strategy, Sim Racing, American/Euro RPG, Fighters
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All three groups need each other for the game's survival. Take away the carebear, and the anti-PK loses his mission; take away the anti-PK, and the tide turns red with grief; take away the PKer and - well, we've seen the ending of that story in countless MMOs. If Mortal Online, or any other game seeking to bring back the days of red, cares to see the success and popularity that Ultima Online made in those days, then the balance must be struck carefully between villain, hero, and heroine.
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Utterly wrong. It is the PvPers that destroy games, not your insultingly termed "carebears". Every PvP-centric MMO ever has gone down the drain thanks to PvPers for three simple reasons.
1. They are 10% or so of the game population.
2. They grief the other 90% out of the game unless stopped by the developers.
3. 10% of the population is not enough to keep the servers up, especially since many of the cowards then jump to a different game because all of their "carebears" are gone and they haven't the huevos to fight other PvPrs.
Eve Online is a perfect example of this. The lowsec wannabe "pirates" do not dare go into 0.0 where they could fight real PvPers. Instead they sit all day long camping a gate (the fixed spawn point entering in the zone), or fly around hoping to scan down some mission runner's area so they can jump them while the missioner is already engaged by NPCs. Or they go steal miner's ore from their cans to try to taunt the miner into fighting them with nothing for guns (mining lasers cannot be fired at other ships). Real brave, and the sole reason why people don't leave 0.0 to go explore and fight in lowsec, eventually moving on to 0.0 space - the griefers are camping the way there.
Now put those same people into a game where people are trying to play their characters in the game - "charbears" if you will. They will fight if it's right for their char, but otherwise, they're engaged in learning the game, exploring, building things, and generally having fun. Here comes the PvP griefer, exploiting anything they can to screw up the game for someone who is trying to actually play it.
Here's a true story of my first PvP experience ever, on the first PvP server in EQ1. I logged in for the very first time and BAM - a 5th level one-shotted my 1st level char with a sword. I logged in again - BAM the same thing. This utter @sshat had nothing better to do with his time than stand at the newbie spawn spot and kill brand new characters for the 2 copper and lint in their pockets. Seriously.
Even after I skillfully evaded his next attack, got out of his sight around a tree and used my racial hide to go invisible on him and thus evaded his bullcrap spawncamping - beating him with nothing but pure SKILL in playing my char, mind you - do you think I was all happy and pleased and wanted to keep playing?
HELL NO. If the developers of the game are happy with that kind of bullsh8 happening, I am not happy with the developers of the game and will not pay them my money. I sat down, logged off and said "Good luck paying for the server all by yourselves, @sshats";.
Here's another example - my beloved Planetside, a 100% PvP game where you can shoot everyone that isn't the same color as you. There shouldn't be any reason or need to grief or exploit, right? 'Cause it's 100% PvP. But still, about 10% of the population found exploits to pad their killcounts at the expense of the actual gameplay for everyone else. In a 100% PvP game where all you do is shoot other PvPers! But that just wasn't enough for the @sshats in the crowd, they had to be exploiting schmucks and ruin the fun for others with hotdropping, wallhumping, and haxing.
Bottom line - the so-called "unafraid" PvPers are the ones that kill PvP games with their need to be cowardly griefers and exploiters. Kick those lowlives out of the game, and you'll see your "carebears" out there playing as the game was intended to be played, including fighting wars.
For evidence, I refer you to Eve Online's Eve University, a massive carebear corp if there ever was one, intended to coddle up new players until they are ready to play the game on their own. Their war record and killboard tells the tale of how wussy and tame they are.
I'm still amazed on how many ppl call ganking PVP. Actually not ganking, but low lvl PKs. As i said i would mind if some1 around my lvl would try or even succed to PK me...that might make the game interesting....PKing a newbie with an high lvl toon on the other hand....
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
Whaaat? Most so called "carebears" in Eve are in high security space. Where resources are not won by combat, they're just there for the taking.
Question, are YOU a crafting carebear who enjoys the thrill of being hunted by PKers while you try to harvest? No? then don't speak for others, you're obviously just trying to tell a big lie here.
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While this is not a review of Mortal Online, this article gives a very favourable impression of it. I am interested in that MMO myself, but it has had some severe problems as can be seen if you go to the forums for MO here.
I've noticed that. The graphics in the video looked great. Its too bad they are so badly limiting the demographic they appeal to. Lets hope we don't have another Dark Fail on our hands here.
Whaaat? Most so called "carebears" in Eve are in high security space. Where resources are not won by combat, they're just there for the taking.
Question, are YOU a crafting carebear who enjoys the thrill of being hunted by PKers while you try to harvest? No? then don't speak for others, you're obviously just trying to tell a big lie here.
You're confusing "carebears" with "casual players who never get to the endgame".
The production/trading/transporting/mining/maintenance/logistics in lowsec is a lot more impressive and interesting than empire auction houses, and A LOT more important. The carebears down in 0.0 are plenty.
Also, I've never had problems avoiding PKers so I can't say I've ever been part of the massive carebear slaughter every other carebear seems to always be a part of. I wonder if most casual carebears have ever even played a PvP centric game with loss upon death.
Then I've yet to see a good one. I've played almost all of the major and many of the minor MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that does PvP anything like as well as the FPS games I mentioned. Thats hardly surprising when one notes the differences in the game types. That having been said, I see no real point in MMO PvP. Its much too prone to ganking/griefing, and none of the counter systems that have been dreamed up over the years have done much to counter that.
Lineage 2 Is a good game with Full pvp . You barely see any reds , and they have lots of different pvp systems that makes the game quite enjoyable ( castle siege , fortress siege , clan hall siege ( yes they all 3 are sieges , but they are completely different , normal pvp , olympiad etc )
And Mortal Online wont do the same mistakes as Darkfall. Once you become red , you are flagged as murderer for the next 20 hours IN-GAME , and also every time you die , if you are Red , you will lose skils. 4% , 8% , 10% (is the max capacity for losing skils).
I sayed , EVERY time you Die , if you Are red . Dont take this as "Every time you die or , When you become red "
I actually think that full PvP is a really great options for a MMO. I always wanted to role-play a Thief/Murderer , but few games gave me this opportunity . Mortal Online will give it , and I dont really care If I get back to Skils : 0 as long as I get to play the way I want. If you cant suffer the consequences , then dont become a PK . Reds should be the elite of PvP , the daredevils of the game, Not a bunch of 12 years old kids , ganking on everybody and wasting people's time and efforts.
Well it's an interesting point of view but I think it's more an excuse of lazy design that has created this rift.
Asking for balance in MMOs these days would be like seeing realistic scenario in game trailers or simply put like asking for non scantly clad babes with buns bigger than the baker running around in the snow weilding armour and swords as if they were attatched between the thin chain holding those buns in place.
I'm plain bored we the choices out there for MMOs and your articles proves that you are either one of three groups, yet there is a fourth and fifth group just waiting for a decent MMO to play.
I don't need to go into the particulars as I'm certain there are more group types undiscovered. Until something changes I've gone back to single player games and hope that someone out there developing has some brains to realise this pathetic attitude to designing.
With regards to a balanced PVP environment the best game I ever played was and still is Dragonrealms by the good people at Simultronics. Having just come off a long stint on a much more hack and slash based game Medievia, I was looking for a more calm natured game, and Dragonrealms happened to be in open beta at the time - on AOL of all things.
For those wondering WTF - yes these are real games, yes they are _text based_, and yes they are still around and doing well - as well as a non-graphical MMO can do nowadays I suppose.
Back to Dragonrealms though - this game had a lot going for it in terms of balance. First off, it had what might be considered an early version of EVE Online's system security rating. If you were in good standing with the law and inside one of the major cities, even an attempt by another player at PKing you would garner a quick reaction from the city guards who would haul them off to jail or if they resisted put a spear in their gut. It was very unlikely a player could get away with murder in a city without being murdered by the guards in return. This is something I think is desired in many MMOs - in reality a lot of players want a semblence of the real world in their MMO play experience. If someone tries to steal your stuff there should be consequences, if someone tries to kill you there should be even greater consequences. There should be some basic laws and some enforcement of those laws, and this has to be pretty much automated in a game - even the most avid anti-PKers don't want to spend all their time doing law enforcement in a virtual world. On the flip side, players also want a sense of danger, which Dragonrealms provided - wander out of the major cities and you're in a lawless land, you can get robbed and killed, or be the one doing the robbing and killing. In this manner the "carebears" could have their world and the PKers their world, and the two were able to mix to a degree with well known and well understood consequences for both sides.
As if the above mechanics weren't enough to cater to all sides, Dragonrealms had the ultimate in "carebear" classes, the Empath. Empaths are the standard healing class that you'll find in any MMO, but with a twist. Mechanically quite distinct, the Empath had to transfer the wounds of the injured to their own body first before they could heal the wounds away. And when I say wounds I mean wounds - the gash on the left arm, the severed foot, the paralyzed spinal cord, the crossbow bolt in the tongue (no joke!) - not just the bucket of missing hitpoints. The damage system in this game is amazingly detailed to say the least but I digress (again). What made the Empath truly special was the restriction that in order to use Empathic powers the Empath must _completely shun all violence_. Give a rabid sewer rat so much as a papercut and you would be looking at something like a real-time day without your healing capabilities without aid from fellow Empaths to share the burden of the spiritual trauma.
This restriction had far-reaching consequences for how gameplay would unfold. Any players in the game involved in combat would eventually become injured, and therefore would eventually end up at the Empath's door (yes you could obtain healing in other manners such as paying NPCs or obtaining potions, etc, but these methods were always more difficult, more costly, or less effective than an Empath visit). So everyone needed an Empath friend, and thus the ultimate "carebear" class had everyone knocking at their door to heal them - and what better way to requisition the services of the one class restricted to non-combat than to offer your own combat abilities to them should the need arise?
It became a social taboo to attack any city-bound Empath (one who stayed mostly to the main cities providing their services to the injured in the local hospitals) to the point that even an attempted PK on one would garner a widespread reaction. Sometimes an annoying character might show up and disrupt the usual goings-on of a hospital area by being as annoying as possible without triggering the city guards, but this could be dealt with easily by two high-ranking empaths agreeing to call the hospital staff and have the offender ejected and barred entry for a time - another excellent anti-griefing mechanic.
At the same time Empaths were not entirely barred from PVP or dungeon crawling experiences, one could train in shields and other defensive abilities and march into battle at the rear, healing the wounded and sending them back to work - with the understanding that you better be able to run fast if the combantants on your side fell, else risk a (rightfully deserved) shank in the ribs. Bottom line, as a city Empath unless you openly pissed someone off no one in their right mind would try to PK you just for the sake of griefing unless they wanted to meet a quick death at the hands of the guards or become infamous among the anti-PKers, and as a combat Empath you could get a taste of PVP with the understanding that you forfeit some of your "immunity".
This symbiosis made the "triangle" discussed in the OP balance out - essentially there were still PKers, anti-PKers, and in the end the "carebear" Empaths cleaned up the mess and advanced in their class for doing so. An extremely well done system and something I have been dying to see the likes of in a graphical MMO, but so far no luck. It has never made sense to me that as a healing class, in any game, you gain access to your more powerful healing abilities by doing what is in my mind the most ironic thing possible - killing tons and tons of mobs. Dragonrealms was probably one of two games I've played where there was a legitamate way to play and enjoy the game without the need for combat, and by far the best on execution. Simulatronics has been working on Hero's Journey for ages now with no announced release date but I'm still hopeful that it will come and when it does it will have some aspect of this perserved in it.