It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.
...A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.
Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.
...
oh god not this again.
....
Some will group all the time, some will spend a lot of time crafting, some will go out in the world and explore on their own.
it is very clear, given the numours types of people out there, that there will be numerous ways of playing these games.
Look at what I highlighted in my original post you quoted above.
In regards to your post :
It's called Single player RPG's, plenty of them.
I agree with Sovrath, specifically the "oh god not this again" part.
The problem as I see it, AstralMystic, is that you seem to be assuming "Massively Multiplayer", "community", and "grouping" are synonymous - they are not.
I enjoy the community of an MMORPG but I prefer to ADVENTURE ALONE(ie: solo). Just because I prefer to fight creatures alone and travel alone, that doesn't mean I'm not interacting with others and that I'm not part of the community. I'm just NOT GROUPING.
-d
I SOLO exclusively - NO groups NO guilds NO BS -mainly because I DO NOT want to play on SOMEONE ELSE'S schedule.
I Play for relaxation - it is NOT a job to me. If I want to take an hour just to fish, pick herbs, mine or whatever - I can do it without someone bitching at me that I am holding up THEIR advancement. Frankly I DON'T GIVE A DAMN about THEIR advancement.
As long as WOW has separate servers for PVE, PVP, RP, etc they should put in servers for SOLO ONLY - OR make all servers the same. I have heard a lot of BS about SOLOER'S not deserving separate servers - FINE - then neither do the others. I do have the option of turning down "invitations" to duel - mostly from TWINKED -UP dweebs. All of the equipment that my troops have is what they have earned or bought at the AH on money that they earned themselves.
WOW has a tendency to FORCE various classes into pigeon-holes slanted to GROUP playing. This is OK to a point - in my NOT SO HUMBLE opinion EVERY class should be capable of SOLOING to whatever the top available level is. That - to me at least - is the ONLY way a player can learn all the strengths and weaknesses of a class. My Warriors all have ranged pulling weapons. Yes, I know, Warriors have Charge - but when you are soloing it is not always smart to charge into the middle of a "Fuster Cluck" - it is much smarter to pull them one or two at a time. Saves a lot of time walking back from cemetaries.
As far as SOLOER'S not deserving the same loot as the GROUPER'S - to that I say BS. If someone can defeat the same opponents SOLO that it takes a GAGGLE of inepts to defeat then they DO deserve the goodies because they are far better than the "Group."
I have been playing now for almost three years- and still do not have a lvl 80 - or even a DK. I have a bad case of ALT - itis so I will create a new alt to test some playing strategies I play WOW because it has a MUCH MORE immense world to explore than most other games on the market - NOT because I want to be forced into grouping with a bunch of greedy Anal types who want to grab all the goodies for themselves then port out - AS I HAVE HAD THE MISFORTUNE of having had done to me in the past. The average "GROUPER" couldn't survive without having someone do most of the work for them.
I have a few points of contention with the game designers too - I have been an Archer since I was 14 - I am now almost 82 - and the only archers that shoot from the RIGHT side of the bow are those that use Oriental thumb rings or Japanese shooting gloves. I have competed in more archery tournaments than I can count and I am very familiar with ALL types of shooting.
And what is this fixation with TWO-HANDED weapons. Give me two FAST one handed weapons any day. The classes are all REQUIRED to learn additional weapons above their BASIC weapons. Why then are some classes NOT allowed to learn ANY/SOME or ALL weapons? Because it does not fit into their prescribed GROUP profile?
Also - why are some weapons labeled "Main Hand" and some others "One Hand?" If a Character can only use ONE weapon then it makes no difference - so why should it discriminate against classes that ARE allowed to dual wield? They should ALL be labeled "One hand" and be able to be used in either hand if the class is qualified to dual wield.
There should be a balance. Allowing people to choose to solo or group. And grant grouping slightly more exp and better drop. Since they need to go through the fuzz of forming a group.
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
The problem of garthering a group is just a "cost of doing business" as we used to say when I WORKED for a living. If anything they should get LESS because they are NOT AS GOOD as the SOLOER. Let them learn how to play their class without having to have a HERD of people doing all the work.
There should be a balance. Allowing people to choose to solo or group. And grant grouping slightly more exp and better drop. Since they need to go through the fuzz of forming a group.
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
Leveling wise, because the time people sit on their butt forming the group makes up for it.
For endgame, the best gear have to come in groups, else no one will bother with the content. Soloer usually have alternative way of progressing. Like making money.
Personally I think the problem with all this duality between Group Play and Solo play is due to the Level based Quest Based Reward Driven Themepark design of MMORPG's.
I saw many speak of UO here in this discussion, yet lets not forget that UO was a Sandbox game, it had no quests whatsoever, no Reward Driven play either, to be more precise, the Rewards were defined by the player not the design of the game.
If I set my goal to become the greatest Solo Hunter that makes the best arrows and provides the finest fur and leather products to the community I could reward myself by achieving that goal. becoming the wilderness secluded Trapper if you will.
But that would still travel to a village or town and sell own wares from other merchants as well as buy their wares on occasion.
There was interaction between everyone in UO and people did not exist under Labels such as "Solo or Group Player"...we were all players...Good or Evil, or somewhere in between (another thing defined by the player and not by the design), but it was a Sandbox design.
And you see, Themepark designs are all about segmentation and segmentation promotes segregation...from Levels ranges and Classes to whether someone prefers to play Solo or in a Group...
The underlying argument in all of this discussion however is not really about playing Solo or in a Group...the real argument relating to the MMORPG...the Multiplayer part of it...is about, people playing with each other, this is what in my opinion MMORPG's have lost (most of them specially Themepark designs), as these are more about a solo player or a group of players playing the game..amongst other solo players or groups of players...rather than, players playing with eachother within a Fantasy World (ie the game).
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
There should be a balance. Allowing people to choose to solo or group. And grant grouping slightly more exp and better drop. Since they need to go through the fuzz of forming a group.
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
Leveling wise, because the time people sit on their butt forming the group makes up for it.
For endgame, the best gear have to come in groups, else no one will bother with the content. Soloer usually have alternative way of progressing. Like making money.
Sounds like you are defeating your own argument.
What you are saying then is that the game designers need to BRIBE the GROUPER'S to play in GAGGLES with extra goodies that the SOLOER'S are excluded from getting - even though the SOLOER'S are BETTER PLAYERS.
And how do you progress by making money? Is there some way to BRIBE the GM's for levels and equipment? LOL
What's wrong with games that promote soloing? There are plenty of games that do not.
Nothing is wrong with a game that promotes soloing, in fact I wouldn't play one that didn't.
That being said the meat of any MMO should revolve around grouping. Soloing should be an alternative not the crux of the game. The best gear should also be tied to grouping. The best rewards should be reserved to those willing to work as a team to achieve a common goal.
In the early days most MMO's required grouping which that was too much. Now the needle has shifted too far in the other direction.
That being said the meat of any MMO should revolve around grouping.
Why? Lots of people make that claim, nobody ever manages to actually back it up. Just making a claim doesn't prove it's so. Apparently, the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to play solo and since MMO companies exist to make money, shouldn't the majority of gameplay cater to the majority of players?
Lots of pro-groupers say that MMOs are about grouping, absolutely none of them have ever backed it up. They just act like their own personal preferences make it so.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Why? Lots of people make that claim, nobody ever manages to actually back it up. Just making a claim doesn't prove it's so. Apparently, the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to play solo and since MMO companies exist to make money, shouldn't the majority of gameplay cater to the majority of players? Lots of pro-groupers say that MMOs are about grouping, absolutely none of them have ever backed it up. They just act like their own personal preferences make it so.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know, as the topics of grouping goes on, more and more it just seams like its driven, or forced down that path in a game by the players, just like alot of jobs in many MMO's that were created for a certain task, but players found a more useful task for it and doesnt want said job around if they play it old school.
Anyways;
someone mentioned backing up what your insinuating.
So, try this instead, list the MMO your currently playing and tell us why you feell through your experience in that particular game, why you feel its a forced grouping game, or solo game. Why you feel you have to cry your alone because you've only got 10 mins to play and no one wants you around, etc...
Rather than the rant, give your experience why you feel you do, and the name of the game.
Its better then the retardation going around of everyone just claiming they're wronged by MMO's or forced into it without consent, so on.
Who knows, maybe weve also played the game(s) your refering to and can better sewe from other point of views.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Why? Lots of people make that claim, nobody ever manages to actually back it up. Just making a claim doesn't prove it's so. Apparently, the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to play solo and since MMO companies exist to make money, shouldn't the majority of gameplay cater to the majority of players? Lots of pro-groupers say that MMOs are about grouping, absolutely none of them have ever backed it up. They just act like their own personal preferences make it so.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Given the popularity of WOW (a solo-heavy game) and the vast popularity of singleplayer games in general (compared to multiplayer titles), I believe you're wrong on this point.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt Given the popularity of WOW (a solo-heavy game) and the vast popularity of singleplayer games in general (compared to multiplayer titles), I believe you're wrong on this point.
Players who want to solo, play those single-player games.
Players who want to group, play multi-player games and solo when they have to.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Axehilt Given the popularity of WOW (a solo-heavy game) and the vast popularity of singleplayer games in general (compared to multiplayer titles), I believe you're wrong on this point.
Players who want to solo, play those single-player games.
Players who want to group, play multi-player games and solo when they have to.
Do you have anything to back up this statement?
I ask as an MMO player whose preference is to solo and who only groups when I have to.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
There should be a balance. Allowing people to choose to solo or group. And grant grouping slightly more exp and better drop. Since they need to go through the fuzz of forming a group.
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
The problem of garthering a group is just a "cost of doing business" as we used to say when I WORKED for a living. If anything they should get LESS because they are NOT AS GOOD as the SOLOER. Let them learn how to play their class without having to have a HERD of people doing all the work.
This would be a forced solo game, if you use the term just like the solo players use the term forced grouping.
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg.
Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet?
These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Originally posted by Cephus404 Why? Lots of people make that claim, nobody ever manages to actually back it up. Just making a claim doesn't prove it's so. Apparently, the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to play solo and since MMO companies exist to make money, shouldn't the majority of gameplay cater to the majority of players? Lots of pro-groupers say that MMOs are about grouping, absolutely none of them have ever backed it up. They just act like their own personal preferences make it so.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Given the popularity of WOW (a solo-heavy game) and the vast popularity of singleplayer games in general (compared to multiplayer titles), I believe you're wrong on this point.
I agree. Most people on forums would prefer to group. The solo players dont 'need to be on a forum, they can go play one of the many solo friendly games that exist now.
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
Because if you dial down the challenges so you can solo them, you have ruined the group content.
We don't want to force you to group. We want challenging content that is not ruined by the ability to solo it.
But you will never understand it, you can't stop thinking someone is dying to group with you to the point they want to make you do it, when actually no one wants to play the game with you at all.
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
Raiding and leveling to cap are two different games.
I am discussing the leveling to the cap part of the game, not raiding, which I don't do.
The reason we can't both play and be happy, is you want to force me to play a solo friendly game, which destroys the grouping game I like, before the level cap.
Then you tell me I'm the one that can't let others play the game they want to. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I want to pay 15 bucks a month for a good grouping game. If I can solo the content, you've destroyed the challenge for me and it's not a fun game anymore.
Tell me how you can fix that so we can both enjoy the game?
I GROUP all the time!!! In WOW my group Rocks in some instances!!! Yup, my PET and I make the best group. My pet never complains about the "loot" drops. Does not complain about my healing!! Really does not talk back or tell me how I should play when im fighting those scary evil bad guys.. You know Humans, Elves,Dwarves.. and those dreaded Gnomes!!
Every once in a while I have a friend who is a dr00d .. I tell him hes toooo much of a COW to make a good druid. When we group with him I feel like I am fighting next to a QUARTER POUNDER w/CHEESE ! But it works out well. He does not end up ground beef usually! My original group usually takes care of that!
Me and my pet(Studmuffin) prefer to work together and alone. Usually works out for the best! Just do not see what all this fuss about soloing/grouping is. I am glad I do not work alone or I may have taken offense to the OPs main thread.
We believe everyone should play how they want to play! If you want to group DO IT!! If you want to SOLO.. DO IT!!! Its not my affair... The only time it becomes my affair is when some LIBERAL RETARD tries to tell me how I should play.. Like what gives you a "right" to tell me what should or should not be?
Yup, if you want to profess how I should play you can always go where you belong!! Back up a certain GOP's skinny Arse!
I GROUP all the time!!! In WOW my group Rocks in some instances!!! Yup, my PET and I make the best group. My pet never complains about the "loot" drops. Does not complain about my healing!! Really does not talk back or tell me how I should play when im fighting those scary evil bad guys.. You know Humans, Elves,Dwarves.. and those dreaded Gnomes!! Every once in a while I have a friend who is a dr00d .. I tell him hes toooo much of a COW to make a good druid. When we group with him I feel like I am fighting next to a QUARTER POUNDER w/CHEESE ! But it works out well. He does not end up ground beef usually! My original group usually takes care of that! Me and my pet(Studmuffin) prefer to work together and alone. Usually works out for the best! Just do not see what all this fuss about soloing/grouping is. I am glad I do not work alone or I may have taken offense to the OPs main thread. We believe everyone should play how they want to play! If you want to group DO IT!! If you want to SOLO.. DO IT!!! Its not my affair... The only time it becomes my affair is when some LIBERAL RETARD tries to tell me how I should play.. Like what gives you a "right" to tell me what should or should not be? Yup, if you want to profess how I should play you can always go where you belong!! Back up a certain GOP's skinny Arse! TYVM!!!
You just contradicted yourself.
You're telling me how ot play, and saying no one should tell you how to play.
I want a game with challenging group content. If that content can be soloed, it's not a challenge and you've ruined the group content for me.
And yet you insist the solo content needs to be in the game, so no one else will tell someone how to play.
So you want to destroy the content in the game I like, then tell me you've given me a choice? WTF??!!
Originally posted by Ihmotepp You just contradicted yourself. You're telling me how ot play, and saying no one should tell you how to play. I want a game with challenging group content. If that content can be soloed, it's not a challenge and you've ruined the group content for me. And yet you insist the solo content needs to be in the game, so no one else will tell someone how to play. So you want to destroy the content in the game I like, then tell me you've given me a choice? WTF??!!
I'm curious; how did you feel about Age of Conan's levelling system?
If you've not played, I'll summarise .. when entering an area you are given a choice between solo or group. The two zones are identical in terms of quests, terrain, NPCs, etc .. the only difference is that if you enter a group area every mob is "elite" and requires a group to kill. They also drop better loot.
Is this a game that you are happy to play?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg. Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet? These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
Raiding and leveling to cap are two different games.
I am discussing the leveling to the cap part of the game, not raiding, which I don't do.
The reason we can't both play and be happy, is you want to force me to play a solo friendly game, which destroys the grouping game I like, before the level cap.
Then you tell me I'm the one that can't let others play the game they want to. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I want to pay 15 bucks a month for a good grouping game. If I can solo the content, you've destroyed the challenge for me and it's not a fun game anymore.
Tell me how you can fix that so we can both enjoy the game?
Grouping =/= Raiding
Who says you can't group all the way to 80 in WoW or most games like it? If you can't, you are playing in the WRONG guild. Matter of fact, I have seven level 80s and five of them went all the way 95% grouping. The other two I didn't group at all until I hit 80. If, and thati's a big if I log back in, my next adventure is going to be leveling to 60 with a toon solo and then PvPing my way to level cap. See, more grouping in WoW. The GROUPING is out there, you just have to go look for it in the right guild.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
I GROUP all the time!!! In WOW my group Rocks in some instances!!! Yup, my PET and I make the best group. My pet never complains about the "loot" drops. Does not complain about my healing!! Really does not talk back or tell me how I should play when im fighting those scary evil bad guys.. You know Humans, Elves,Dwarves.. and those dreaded Gnomes!! Every once in a while I have a friend who is a dr00d .. I tell him hes toooo much of a COW to make a good druid. When we group with him I feel like I am fighting next to a QUARTER POUNDER w/CHEESE ! But it works out well. He does not end up ground beef usually! My original group usually takes care of that! Me and my pet(Studmuffin) prefer to work together and alone. Usually works out for the best! Just do not see what all this fuss about soloing/grouping is. I am glad I do not work alone or I may have taken offense to the OPs main thread. We believe everyone should play how they want to play! If you want to group DO IT!! If you want to SOLO.. DO IT!!! Its not my affair... The only time it becomes my affair is when some LIBERAL RETARD tries to tell me how I should play.. Like what gives you a "right" to tell me what should or should not be? Yup, if you want to profess how I should play you can always go where you belong!! Back up a certain GOP's skinny Arse! TYVM!!!
You just contradicted yourself.
You're telling me how ot play, and saying no one should tell you how to play.
I want a game with challenging group content. If that content can be soloed, it's not a challenge and you've ruined the group content for me.
And yet you insist the solo content needs to be in the game, so no one else will tell someone how to play.
So you want to destroy the content in the game I like, then tell me you've given me a choice? WTF??!
I insisted solo content needs to be in the game? Care to show me? I apologize if you have read my advocate threads. You must not play WOW. My pet and I is me.. Just me.. I never said you had to play anyway other than what you do already? Nor would I. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.
Comments
oh god not this again.
....
Some will group all the time, some will spend a lot of time crafting, some will go out in the world and explore on their own.
it is very clear, given the numours types of people out there, that there will be numerous ways of playing these games.
Look at what I highlighted in my original post you quoted above.
In regards to your post :
It's called Single player RPG's, plenty of them.
I agree with Sovrath, specifically the "oh god not this again" part.
The problem as I see it, AstralMystic, is that you seem to be assuming "Massively Multiplayer", "community", and "grouping" are synonymous - they are not.
I enjoy the community of an MMORPG but I prefer to ADVENTURE ALONE(ie: solo). Just because I prefer to fight creatures alone and travel alone, that doesn't mean I'm not interacting with others and that I'm not part of the community. I'm just NOT GROUPING.
-d
I SOLO exclusively - NO groups NO guilds NO BS -mainly because I DO NOT want to play on SOMEONE ELSE'S schedule.
I Play for relaxation - it is NOT a job to me. If I want to take an hour just to fish, pick herbs, mine or whatever - I can do it without someone bitching at me that I am holding up THEIR advancement. Frankly I DON'T GIVE A DAMN about THEIR advancement.
As long as WOW has separate servers for PVE, PVP, RP, etc they should put in servers for SOLO ONLY - OR make all servers the same. I have heard a lot of BS about SOLOER'S not deserving separate servers - FINE - then neither do the others. I do have the option of turning down "invitations" to duel - mostly from TWINKED -UP dweebs. All of the equipment that my troops have is what they have earned or bought at the AH on money that they earned themselves.
WOW has a tendency to FORCE various classes into pigeon-holes slanted to GROUP playing. This is OK to a point - in my NOT SO HUMBLE opinion EVERY class should be capable of SOLOING to whatever the top available level is. That - to me at least - is the ONLY way a player can learn all the strengths and weaknesses of a class. My Warriors all have ranged pulling weapons. Yes, I know, Warriors have Charge - but when you are soloing it is not always smart to charge into the middle of a "Fuster Cluck" - it is much smarter to pull them one or two at a time. Saves a lot of time walking back from cemetaries.
As far as SOLOER'S not deserving the same loot as the GROUPER'S - to that I say BS. If someone can defeat the same opponents SOLO that it takes a GAGGLE of inepts to defeat then they DO deserve the goodies because they are far better than the "Group."
I have been playing now for almost three years- and still do not have a lvl 80 - or even a DK. I have a bad case of ALT - itis so I will create a new alt to test some playing strategies I play WOW because it has a MUCH MORE immense world to explore than most other games on the market - NOT because I want to be forced into grouping with a bunch of greedy Anal types who want to grab all the goodies for themselves then port out - AS I HAVE HAD THE MISFORTUNE of having had done to me in the past. The average "GROUPER" couldn't survive without having someone do most of the work for them.
I have a few points of contention with the game designers too - I have been an Archer since I was 14 - I am now almost 82 - and the only archers that shoot from the RIGHT side of the bow are those that use Oriental thumb rings or Japanese shooting gloves. I have competed in more archery tournaments than I can count and I am very familiar with ALL types of shooting.
And what is this fixation with TWO-HANDED weapons. Give me two FAST one handed weapons any day. The classes are all REQUIRED to learn additional weapons above their BASIC weapons. Why then are some classes NOT allowed to learn ANY/SOME or ALL weapons? Because it does not fit into their prescribed GROUP profile?
Also - why are some weapons labeled "Main Hand" and some others "One Hand?" If a Character can only use ONE weapon then it makes no difference - so why should it discriminate against classes that ARE allowed to dual wield? They should ALL be labeled "One hand" and be able to be used in either hand if the class is qualified to dual wield.
WOW - ARE YOU LISTENING?
There should be a balance. Allowing people to choose to solo or group.
And grant grouping slightly more exp and better drop. Since they need to go through the fuzz of forming a group.
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
The problem of garthering a group is just a "cost of doing business" as we used to say when I WORKED for a living. If anything they should get LESS because they are NOT AS GOOD as the SOLOER. Let them learn how to play their class without having to have a HERD of people doing all the work.
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
Leveling wise, because the time people sit on their butt forming the group makes up for it.
For endgame, the best gear have to come in groups, else no one will bother with the content. Soloer usually have alternative way of progressing. Like making money.
Interesting discussion.
Personally I think the problem with all this duality between Group Play and Solo play is due to the Level based Quest Based Reward Driven Themepark design of MMORPG's.
I saw many speak of UO here in this discussion, yet lets not forget that UO was a Sandbox game, it had no quests whatsoever, no Reward Driven play either, to be more precise, the Rewards were defined by the player not the design of the game.
If I set my goal to become the greatest Solo Hunter that makes the best arrows and provides the finest fur and leather products to the community I could reward myself by achieving that goal. becoming the wilderness secluded Trapper if you will.
But that would still travel to a village or town and sell own wares from other merchants as well as buy their wares on occasion.
There was interaction between everyone in UO and people did not exist under Labels such as "Solo or Group Player"...we were all players...Good or Evil, or somewhere in between (another thing defined by the player and not by the design), but it was a Sandbox design.
And you see, Themepark designs are all about segmentation and segmentation promotes segregation...from Levels ranges and Classes to whether someone prefers to play Solo or in a Group...
The underlying argument in all of this discussion however is not really about playing Solo or in a Group...the real argument relating to the MMORPG...the Multiplayer part of it...is about, people playing with each other, this is what in my opinion MMORPG's have lost (most of them specially Themepark designs), as these are more about a solo player or a group of players playing the game..amongst other solo players or groups of players...rather than, players playing with eachother within a Fantasy World (ie the game).
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
Leveling wise, because the time people sit on their butt forming the group makes up for it.
For endgame, the best gear have to come in groups, else no one will bother with the content. Soloer usually have alternative way of progressing. Like making money.
Sounds like you are defeating your own argument.
What you are saying then is that the game designers need to BRIBE the GROUPER'S to play in GAGGLES with extra goodies that the SOLOER'S are excluded from getting - even though the SOLOER'S are BETTER PLAYERS.
And how do you progress by making money? Is there some way to BRIBE the GM's for levels and equipment? LOL
Nothing is wrong with a game that promotes soloing, in fact I wouldn't play one that didn't.
That being said the meat of any MMO should revolve around grouping. Soloing should be an alternative not the crux of the game. The best gear should also be tied to grouping. The best rewards should be reserved to those willing to work as a team to achieve a common goal.
In the early days most MMO's required grouping which that was too much. Now the needle has shifted too far in the other direction.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Why? Lots of people make that claim, nobody ever manages to actually back it up. Just making a claim doesn't prove it's so. Apparently, the overwhelming majority of MMO players want to play solo and since MMO companies exist to make money, shouldn't the majority of gameplay cater to the majority of players?
Lots of pro-groupers say that MMOs are about grouping, absolutely none of them have ever backed it up. They just act like their own personal preferences make it so.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You know, as the topics of grouping goes on, more and more it just seams like its driven, or forced down that path in a game by the players, just like alot of jobs in many MMO's that were created for a certain task, but players found a more useful task for it and doesnt want said job around if they play it old school.
Anyways;
someone mentioned backing up what your insinuating.
So, try this instead, list the MMO your currently playing and tell us why you feell through your experience in that particular game, why you feel its a forced grouping game, or solo game. Why you feel you have to cry your alone because you've only got 10 mins to play and no one wants you around, etc...
Rather than the rant, give your experience why you feel you do, and the name of the game.
Its better then the retardation going around of everyone just claiming they're wronged by MMO's or forced into it without consent, so on.
Who knows, maybe weve also played the game(s) your refering to and can better sewe from other point of views.
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Given the popularity of WOW (a solo-heavy game) and the vast popularity of singleplayer games in general (compared to multiplayer titles), I believe you're wrong on this point.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Players who want to solo, play those single-player games.
Players who want to group, play multi-player games and solo when they have to.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Players who want to solo, play those single-player games.
Players who want to group, play multi-player games and solo when they have to.
Do you have anything to back up this statement?
I ask as an MMO player whose preference is to solo and who only groups when I have to.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I disagree - Why should a bunch of incompetents get MORE/BETTER loot and more XP just because they need a herd to do the same thing someone else can do solo?
The problem of garthering a group is just a "cost of doing business" as we used to say when I WORKED for a living. If anything they should get LESS because they are NOT AS GOOD as the SOLOER. Let them learn how to play their class without having to have a HERD of people doing all the work.
This would be a forced solo game, if you use the term just like the solo players use the term forced grouping.
Well OP, I don't condone your efforts to promote how companies should make THEIR mmorpg.
Let's look at the land scape. How are the pure sanbox games doing as a whole? What do their concurrent subscriber numbers look like? The same can be said about a pure PVE genre as a whole. How do their numbers look? Now let's look at a mixed genre and see how games look if they cater to PvPers, Groupers, and PvPers. Are you getting the point yet?
These companies make games to turn a profit. If they determine the best way for them to turn their own profit is to ensure there game is a pure sand box, great! Pure PvE, great! Mixture, great! Point is, the financial success of their game will depend on their choice. Just don't go blaming others because you game sucks and is void of players because people chose to play a game that offers more variety.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Most people playing MMOs would prefer to group - if it was practical and rewarding to do so. Most soloing is due to need, not preference.
Given the popularity of WOW (a solo-heavy game) and the vast popularity of singleplayer games in general (compared to multiplayer titles), I believe you're wrong on this point.
I agree. Most people on forums would prefer to group. The solo players dont 'need to be on a forum, they can go play one of the many solo friendly games that exist now.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
Because if you dial down the challenges so you can solo them, you have ruined the group content.
We don't want to force you to group. We want challenging content that is not ruined by the ability to solo it.
But you will never understand it, you can't stop thinking someone is dying to group with you to the point they want to make you do it, when actually no one wants to play the game with you at all.
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
Raiding and leveling to cap are two different games.
I am discussing the leveling to the cap part of the game, not raiding, which I don't do.
The reason we can't both play and be happy, is you want to force me to play a solo friendly game, which destroys the grouping game I like, before the level cap.
Then you tell me I'm the one that can't let others play the game they want to. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I want to pay 15 bucks a month for a good grouping game. If I can solo the content, you've destroyed the challenge for me and it's not a fun game anymore.
Tell me how you can fix that so we can both enjoy the game?
Grouping =/= Raiding
I GROUP all the time!!! In WOW my group Rocks in some instances!!! Yup, my PET and I make the best group. My pet never complains about the "loot" drops. Does not complain about my healing!! Really does not talk back or tell me how I should play when im fighting those scary evil bad guys.. You know Humans, Elves,Dwarves.. and those dreaded Gnomes!!
Every once in a while I have a friend who is a dr00d .. I tell him hes toooo much of a COW to make a good druid. When we group with him I feel like I am fighting next to a QUARTER POUNDER w/CHEESE ! But it works out well. He does not end up ground beef usually! My original group usually takes care of that!
Me and my pet(Studmuffin) prefer to work together and alone. Usually works out for the best! Just do not see what all this fuss about soloing/grouping is. I am glad I do not work alone or I may have taken offense to the OPs main thread.
We believe everyone should play how they want to play! If you want to group DO IT!! If you want to SOLO.. DO IT!!! Its not my affair... The only time it becomes my affair is when some LIBERAL RETARD tries to tell me how I should play.. Like what gives you a "right" to tell me what should or should not be?
Yup, if you want to profess how I should play you can always go where you belong!! Back up a certain GOP's skinny Arse!
TYVM!!!
You just contradicted yourself.
You're telling me how ot play, and saying no one should tell you how to play.
I want a game with challenging group content. If that content can be soloed, it's not a challenge and you've ruined the group content for me.
And yet you insist the solo content needs to be in the game, so no one else will tell someone how to play.
So you want to destroy the content in the game I like, then tell me you've given me a choice? WTF??!!
I'm curious; how did you feel about Age of Conan's levelling system?
If you've not played, I'll summarise .. when entering an area you are given a choice between solo or group. The two zones are identical in terms of quests, terrain, NPCs, etc .. the only difference is that if you enter a group area every mob is "elite" and requires a group to kill. They also drop better loot.
Is this a game that you are happy to play?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Variety = good solo game.
If you can solo the content or group and both are equally effective, then it's a solo game.
You're basically saying, give me a solo game and screw people that like to group. I don't mind ruining their content, and if they dont' like it they can solo. BUT., I'll say the game has "variety" and they should be happy with that because they can form a group if they want to.
Groupers don't want to form a group for no reason, they want to form a group to overcome a challenge.
What is your point? WoW has the best variety out there and soloers can't get best endgame stuff without grouping. Your point is moot. Otherwise you are are screw solo players, grouping is the only way to play. We both pay the same $15 a month to play, so why can't we each play our own way and be happy? FFS, I don't see solo players running around WoW with the latest T10 gear. You only get it from grouping.
Raiding and leveling to cap are two different games.
I am discussing the leveling to the cap part of the game, not raiding, which I don't do.
The reason we can't both play and be happy, is you want to force me to play a solo friendly game, which destroys the grouping game I like, before the level cap.
Then you tell me I'm the one that can't let others play the game they want to. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I want to pay 15 bucks a month for a good grouping game. If I can solo the content, you've destroyed the challenge for me and it's not a fun game anymore.
Tell me how you can fix that so we can both enjoy the game?
Grouping =/= Raiding
Who says you can't group all the way to 80 in WoW or most games like it? If you can't, you are playing in the WRONG guild. Matter of fact, I have seven level 80s and five of them went all the way 95% grouping. The other two I didn't group at all until I hit 80. If, and thati's a big if I log back in, my next adventure is going to be leveling to 60 with a toon solo and then PvPing my way to level cap. See, more grouping in WoW. The GROUPING is out there, you just have to go look for it in the right guild.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
You just contradicted yourself.
You're telling me how ot play, and saying no one should tell you how to play.
I want a game with challenging group content. If that content can be soloed, it's not a challenge and you've ruined the group content for me.
And yet you insist the solo content needs to be in the game, so no one else will tell someone how to play.
So you want to destroy the content in the game I like, then tell me you've given me a choice? WTF??!
I insisted solo content needs to be in the game? Care to show me? I apologize if you have read my advocate threads. You must not play WOW. My pet and I is me.. Just me.. I never said you had to play anyway other than what you do already? Nor would I. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.