Originally posted by skarwolf I fail to see how buying gold can be considered cheating ? <snip>
Okay. One more time. I'll go slow.
1. Games have rules.
2. These rules are necessary to have game; they define what the game is.
3. Many MMOs have a rule against buying gold.
4. Cheating is defined as breaking a game's rules.
5. Therefore, buying gold in MMOs that have a rule against it is cheating.
I'm not sure I can break it down further, but if you still don't understand, I suppose you could tell me where you're not following and I can try to explain it more.
In WoW's case, please someone tell me the point in:
Getting lvls 1-79
Farming Dailies + Playing their BAD economy to buy the 20k mount (or any other mount for that matter)
Neither one is fun, neither one has a point, neither one makes sense. WoW's endgame is ok, raids and dungeons are done pretty well. But, the rest of the game is boring as hell. It's not because I had done it so many times, or it's not because it was new. My first time around at launch I made it to lvl 35 and was like "WTF AM I DOING?" and unsubbed.
WoW should just go ahead and take a lesson from GW and let you start at 80. Their attempt at this did nothing but kill PVP with an OP spell that does no damage. So, they try to fix it by giving everyone bucu xp for doing BGs.
And you wonder why Botting and Powerleveling is so bad there?
The whole problem with gold selling/buying illustrates a deeper problem in my eyes. We should remember that people come to an MMO to have fun and, obviously, you can conclude that people buy gold because they want to take a shortcut on a less interesting part of the game to a part that is more interesting for them.
Having a job in management and a family to take care of, I have myself cursed at the time spent farming consumables and gold to be able to participate in end game activities that required them. Time spent doing a repetitive task with no fun or purpose in itself but with the only purpose of preparing for something else that I considered fun. In this I think the problem is and the motivation for people to take the shortcut and buy gold. It's the same as having a private cleaner, gardener etc. - you get someone else to do tasks for you that you consider boring to have time to do the stuff you consider fun and compensate with money. There's a moral difference, but I think that "moral" in the online games isn't something that is as settled and agreed upon as the normal moral matters in the real world.
I agree it ruins game economy and that it long term is an evil spiral. In order to accommodate for the large amounts of gold going around games add money sinks. While this short-term helps the inflation, it, in my opinion, long term rather encourages even more money to be pumped out to accommodate for peoples' lust for these items as well.
Making sure people are able to have fun with what they do is one of the keys to solving the gold farming/inflation problem.
I realize that general vanity about gear, wanting to be the best kitted, showing off the best items etc. is another aspect that encourages taking shortcuts. Success and failure in most MMOs are tightly connected with it and for very many the easy successes ("easy" compared to real life) you can achieve in an MMO is what keeps them spellbound and working/farming hard without there really being much fun in it. Now - solving that problem (if it is a problem at all...) is a completely different matter and I must admit that I don't really see a solution to that bit.
We can try to set a moral standard for the people we come in contact with and choose to not socialize/play/raid/pvp/be in guild with people that don't comply to these standards just like we wouldn't associate with real life criminals in real life. And we can try to keep focus on playing the games and supporting the developers that do most to avoid the problem. In the end, however, I don't think we'll really see MMOs without some kind of trading between real life money and in-game items/money/whatever and must lean back and remember that an MMO is after all a game we play to have fun and the person that took the shortcut hasn't gotten the same experience than us who keep the right path.
Any game with or without gold farming will have inflation of economy. As soon as enough people reach max level and start alts they will have the cash to pay prices that low level or new characters can not match. On the opposite side EVE Online that allows Isk buying has not had crazy inflation. If anything it has made raw materials cheaper.
Anyone that falls back on the morality side of the issue is just angry they do not have the money to buy gold themselves.
I fail to see how buying gold can be considered cheating ?
<snip>
Okay. One more time. I'll go slow.
1. Games have rules.
2. These rules are necessary to have game; they define what the game is.
3. Many MMOs have a rule against buying gold.
4. Cheating is defined as breaking a game's rules.
5. Therefore, buying gold in MMOs that have a rule against it is cheating.
I'm not sure I can break it down further, but if you still don't understand, I suppose you could tell me where you're not following and I can try to explain it more.
Using any recourse not provided to naturally by the developers would be cheating unless said developer allows for such thing (i.e. most Add-Ons for WoW aren't cheating because the developers allow you to use them). Bots, hacks, and gold buying are all things that the developers do not allow you to use because they create an imbalance in the game that gives one player an advantage over another. If you buy gold then you can get better gear more quickly and that isn't fair to someone who is doing it how you are supposed to. You could argue that the other player could buy gold too, but that is just someone trying to justify either own behavior due to some self riteous notion that everything they do it right and there are no questions. No matter how many times you polish a terd is it still a terd.
If MMOs were just some offline game that you can go in and edit the game code so everytime you click your mouse you 10k gold and then you are just cheating yourself out of the expereince. For instance you can go on ebay and find game saves that people will sell you so you get unlock all different characters or options from the start of your expereince. You are just cheating yourself by doing that because you are skipping all the challenge in the middle to get there (and I'd argue that you have some major psychological issues with failure ... but different thread).
In an MMO your actions impact everyone it is something that specially the younger people don't understand. They see themselves playing a game and can't perceive other people playing the game too. It is almost like you are on your cell phone talking to people while playing a game. If you decided to hit an area where people exp off mobs and you come through are 30-40 levels higher and can wipe all the mobs out in a minute, you are impacting the people getting exp. Now they don't have anything to kill, but what do you care you did what you wanted to do it is only a game after all. What are they going to do about it?
The same goes with gold buying. You might see it as you getting a sword quickly but if said sword costs a million gold. So you go to some website and buy it. Now there is an extra million gold in the economy that should be there. There is also one less sword on the market. Four more people the same thing: supply goes down, demand stays level, price goes up. Now #6 comes by and sees the price went up he legitimatly earned all his money, but now needs more than he needed a day or so ago. He turns to buying and more money gets put into the economy and everything snowballs. What happens is first off prices inflate to levels that are not fair to anyone. New comers to the game see prices for a level 2 item is priced 50 times what they earned getting from 1 to 2. They give up on the game thus your influx of new people that an MMO needs to survive is cut off and your MMO slowly starts to die. It isn't one person causing the problem, it is a community issue, but one person who does it leave the door open for 10 others to do it.
You could make the argument that the money is already in the economy for you to buy it. This isn't entirly false. The money is there. However the money is stored away from the economy. It is like someone keeping their life savings in their mattress. That money isn't being released into the economy it is being horded. Also consider this. Typically people who sell gold are ones who are playing constantly and camping mobs for drops 24-7. So said million gold sword is aquired by seller x then they sell you the gold to buy the sword and then you give them the gold back for the sword. So in the end they have the same million gold they started with and $20-$50 from you irl. Tell me that doesn't seem shady to you.
Trust me I was one of the people who though this gold selling was a good idea at first. I thought that if I could play and earn money for a month, then I could sell my gold to a company and that money I'd get would pay for my play for the month. So basically I'd be playing for free. I never did it because soon there after I heard it was against the ToS and scraped the idea. I didn't think of gold buying or selling for the longest time until there was a major influx of sellers in FFXI and I saw first hand the deterioration of the economy (Things that were 200k one month were 18m the next). The same was on life support until SE got moving and starting banning people who trafficked gold. I saw people bitching and complaining that they wanted the sellers back so they could by get their million gil swords. I sware I have seen herloin junkies go through withdrawl easier than these people.
Slowly the things have gotten back to normal. In fact things that were 200k and then 18m are down below thier original prices and down to 125k. Thus people are bitching again because with the increase in prices came an increase in inventory to cash in on the high prices and now there is a surplus of supply ... that and the game is 7 years old now. It was really hard to watch and even harder for someone to describe to people who don't want to understand. Everything everyone does imapcts everyone else. The people who feel they are entitled to do what they want because they feel they have the right do it without reguard for anyone else is a cancer on a society, be it virtual or reality.
I have only purchased gold in one game, Guild Wars, and I think it was encouraged rather than discouraged in that game. A buddy of mine was playing and decided he wanted better armor so we went together and bought a hellacious amount of in game currency, been too long ago for me to even remember the currency type. We got our armor and weapons and we were gods, but we both quickly lost all enthusiasm for the game because there was no challenge anymore, we already had what we were fighting for in everything but level.
I was often accused of purchasing money in WoW but I had the grandest luck on drops and could make 300-500g a day just killing mobs and selling the loot. After I struggled to pay for my Paladin mount 3 months into the game I made a toon built to make money, a rogue. After he made 60 I never had money problems again, the mobs in EP always droped epics for me so he lived there and made money for the rest of my toons. When I transfered to Horde we would put a trash item on the AH in Gadget and buy it with a Alliance toon for a greatly inflated sum. It worked and didn't break the rules of the game.
EVE allows for people who don't like to play the parts of the game they might find boring, to fork over some more dough to get past the boring parts. Isn't it a strange coincidence that many activities in EVE are widely considered boring? If your OK with that then feel free, but I'm pretty sure the topic is more related to games that don't allow for this sort of thing.
I love people with their morality when it comes to gold buying. These are the same people that pledge to obey traffic laws and then speed because they want to get somewhere a little faster. How immoral. Probably fudge their income tax returns, taste food in the self serve bins at a grocery store, lie atleast once a week about something, make fake sick calls to work to have a day off....etc.
And I'm the schlub going 55 on the highway getting honked at for NOT speeding so you have some nerve passing judgments on this poster - I do none of those things. Is it so unbelieveable that some ppl have morals and follow the laws? Is that so unfathomable? Damn, I must be an alien. I don't date men for money. I don't cheat other ppl to get ahead. I don't lie to save your feelings. I don't excuse everything I do flippantly as if it never affects anyone else. What kind of society are we in that anyone that would call out deplorable behaviour must be the ones that are secretly at fault.
Least of all do I cheat in a damn video game - I can pass judgment on those that do because they have no excuse and they do affect the game around me in economy in prices but you've heard my opinion - disgusting freaking cheaters. Once again, get caught and deserve it.
Doubt you walk on water nearly as much as you think you do. And if you are that noble, you are one in a 100K and I've yet to meet anyone like you in my entire life, (and I'm pretty old) not even my pastor stands that tall.
Back on topic, RMT doesn't impact games nearly as much as the people who decry it say it does, especially in a game like WOW or EVE where good game design negates any real impact from it.
Lineage 2 was different, gear was very expensive in the early days, and you could either grind for months to earn the next tier, or buy adena and purchase it instead. Blame the game design more than the players.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've played both games so I know the economies, thanks. Also, I'm not against people using their hard earned game cash to fund their habit. But, when you go to purchase better gear for your habit using your countries currency, then I have a minor problem. I'm a bit dissappointed in people who think they need to purchase these things when they are attainable from hard work. Also, I go to school full-time, so I have plenty on my plate. But I find time to enjoy activities as playing my MMO's and maintaining a social life. So I hate excuses that some use, now some may be true but how would I know? I still feel it's a waste to purchase a virtual asset. This is why Congress wanted to tax in game transactions. :[
One more time, i have a job and dont feel the need to cheat... and for the guy asking how much time we play i answered that in a thread in which casuals were taking some flak. 1-2 hr a day through the week plus 4-6 hr in both sat and sun. I estimated 16-20 hr a week...
This whole "i can cheat cuz leveling/grinding is boring" thing is just bs. You cant cheat your way to the end on most other forms of competitive play. Its like a chess player complaining the games take too long or that hes weak at opening... Ever tried playing Risk with small children? They get bored with the strategic part and just wanna jump to dice rolling on ridiculous amounts of soldiers... You people just dont want to pay your dues, its suposed to be a steep way to the top. Ive seen what happens in games where you allow people to buy everything... and trust me, you wont be on the top there either because a 12 yr old with access to a CC will always be more willing to spend money that someone who actually has to earn it.
Many of us are determined to avoid micros like the plague, when you buy gold in a game that doesnt allow it youre cheating us out of an even competition amongst adults. Seriously, in what other way than anonimously, or in what other thing that isnt MMOs would you advocate cheating? If a wep is meant for someone to put in 200-300 hrs farming it you dont deserve it, its meant for elite players. Im unfamiliar with Eve, but from the way people describe it its got p2p plus micros... a model which, if succesful, will not only turn MMOs into an expensive form of entertainment, but will end anything resembling fairness in gameplay. Rules will always tilt towards big spenders. It takes thousands of dollars to be competitive in an f2p, thats what youre taking us all towards to. Youre destroying the games youre suposed to "like"
Im reminded of people who tried to cheat on old pnp games, theyd be very subtle about it (modifying a stat here and there) but would always get caught. I mean were talking groups of 5-6 people here. And they would try to justify themselves as trying to keep up or the game being too hard or their having botched stats cuz they didn't have time to read the books. It's pathetic to see a cheater caught...
There are private servers that allow you to get to endgame in a couple of days, why not try those? Some actually have something of a population and you get to buy gold too in case every mob dropping a raids worth of loot isnt enough for you. Oh, but you wouldnt actually feel like you were playing the game in those?
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
If you believe time equals money i must say you did pick the wrong hobby.
Yours is an argument thats actually very familiar to me, i mean grand theft auto can net you a couple of months worth of honest work in just about an hour... and there is adifference in between a friend giving you a car as a gift and you buying a stolen vehicle. But lets put ethics aside for a minute.
Why not buy an acount? Theres only a diference in degree from saving yourself 10 hours grinding to actually getting to level cap without any effort. And while youre at it why wouldnt you get some endgear too? I mean, anyway you slice it actual irl work will always be more cost effective than playing. I mean you probably just want to raid or PvP anyway... both of which you could do more efectively playing an fps. I mean, you could save yourself both time and money just doing that. Theyve got massive comunities as well. You get to have your cake and eat it too.
The whole point to an MMORPG is advancing on a persistent world. You put time and effort (ideally have fun doing it) and the end result is you get to be part of a competitive comunity. If youre taking shortcuts not only are you a lying fraud (on the comunity side) but you really arent competitive at all. Leaving morals aside, whats the point? Or do you think that because you only cheated a little it doesnt take anything away from that?
Gold farmers have a very negative effect on the comunity as a whole. Ok, so perhaps this doesnt affect you because you dont stick around for long. What are people with this mentality doing playing games that require so much time? Is it that you like to go to cities and show off? Brag about what you actually didnt acomplish? Is it the char creation and playing dress up with toons? Or is it "necesity"? Cant keep up with the no lifers but want to have all the perks. Or maybe you just think they should provide with a mount from day one? Because if they did im fairly certain youd be missing something else and whatever it is the point is you want what other people have without putting in the effort.
Its kinda like wanting to be a rock star but not wanting to go trough the effort of learning how to play an instrument. If you follow your own argument through there really is no reason to play an MMO at all...
Tvalentine,
Try reading the quoted post above and comprehend it. MMORPG's are time-based games. NOT instant gratification based games like console FPS games or any other console game, which is where you seem better suited if you want instant fun and gratification.
Part of the fun of an MMO is the journey, and is also the point of them. It's what separates them from other games out there, and is where the RPG portion of the abbreviation comes into play. You become more attached to your character and the game through the appreciation of what you've worked for to get. NOT through what's been handed to you via the use of your credit card. Or your parents credit card if that's the case. Also, buying gold has long term negative effects on the community and economy of a given server. As the above poster mentioned, I am willing to bet since you want to buy in-game cash to quicken your fun (As you say), I'm also willing to bet you don't stick around in a given game long enough to see the effects it has on a server.
It's players like you who rush to the top level, and then complain there isn't enough content for end game players. If on a PvE server, you rage quit, if on a PvP server, probably one of the players who go around endlessly ganking low levels and talk trash about how leet you are despite having bought outside sources gear.
What's the first MMO you ever played? Bet it's WoW. If not, I appologize, but I bet it is. If not, then it's even sadder that this is your way of thinking. THAT game introduced easy-mode instant gratification to MMO's. I don't care what anyone says. And now every one of those 11 million subs think every MMO should do the same. Most of them have no idea what an MMORPG is suppose to be about, because they haven't played anything but it prior to. I feel sorry for those players, really.
As far as EVE as you mentioned...how much immature idiocy do you see in chat there? Not much, because CCP stuck with making their game have a harsh learning curve, and it takes loads of time to become good. It would be pointless to keep buying ISK in that game without the proper skills (Which are real time based learning). Probably rage quit that game too at some point. It's mainly the younger people who want everything now now now. For those players, the XBox 360 is waiting for you. I find it ironic that games are mainly made with children in mind...and they are the ones who destroy them.
I'm curious about people's thoughts on: a) A friend giving you gold when you first start out b) Sending money to your alts or twinking Are these considered cheating also? Or is it only cheating when a monetary transaction is involved? It seems to me that in both of these examples you're receiving something that you (or that particular character) has not "earned".
Good points. The way I see it....
1.) If they earned the gold through their own efforts, nothing wrong with it. If they bought gold via a gold farmer, it is cheating, and you'd be (Possibly unknowingly) contributing to it.
2. Again, if you earned the gold through the ways the game allows, nothing wrong with twinking your other characters, you earned it after all.
If a friend gives you the gold, sure, you didn't EARN it yourself, but if it isn't gold farmer bought gold, it isn't cheating. It's a gift then and should be appreciated and later possibly reimbursed when you yourself have the means to do so. Via in-game ways, NOT through buying gold yourself.
Your nitpicking about twinking characters. They are still YOUR characters, and you've earned the gold, even if it wasn't for that character, you've earned it. You can do with the gold what you want. But it's also a fine line. In a PvE game, it doesn't really matter as much about twinking a toon, other than to be more efficient soloing or in a dungeon crawl group. But in PvP, it unbalances things for other players when your toon has gear it shouldn't have yet, or at least not so easily have and puts you at an unfair advantage.
Although I see your points, the point to a lot of people's posts here is that buying gold from outside sources ruins a game's economy and playability for others (Especially PvP based MMO's). And the fact that MMO's are time based games and not instant gratification games like console games, that some shouldn't be playing MMOs if that is what they are looking for because they don't have the time to put in.
When you hit "accept" after scrolling down the EULA of an MMO (That I bet 98% don't read), you agree to play by those rules (That you don't read). Most include the prohibiting of buying in-game currency from outside sources. No matter what some say, it's cheating and unbalances the game for others who play the game as it was intended to be played.
I'm curious about people's thoughts on: a) A friend giving you gold when you first start out b) Sending money to your alts or twinking Are these considered cheating also? Or is it only cheating when a monetary transaction is involved? It seems to me that in both of these examples you're receiving something that you (or that particular character) has not "earned".
In both scenarios the ingame currency was earned by someone well entitled to do as they please with it. Gold farmers either bot (cheat) or exploit people in the third world (much worse than cheating). Also, the effect on the economies for these scenarios are dismissable whereas gold farmers have a very negative impact. This ofc leaves a gray area for people selling gold on their own, personally i don't aprove of it but cant say i believe a company should go out of its way to stop it.
Cheating involves breaking a games rules, setting up your alts doesnt and neither does gift giving. Monetary transactions are however a breach of ToS (on most games) so yes, it's cheating.
Just to make things clear... I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I have to strongly disagree that twinking has a small effect on the economy. It inflates the cost of lower level items to the point where in some games they are much more expensive than their higher level equivalents. This, in fact, was the sole reason behind my one and only purchase of gold: it was an established game with so many alts that you couldn't reasonably gear yourself up if you were just starting out.
Also, you're bringing in botting and making the assumption that gold farmers are being exploited, when you know that neither of these are necessarily always the case.
However, let's make the assumption again that I've received gold from a buddy of mine. In return, lets say I give him a case of beer to show my gratitude. Now am I a cheater? I also find it interesting that you have no problem with setting up your own alts, even though this gives that alt an unfair advantage. I'm guessing you have nothing wrong with it ethically because it is a much more commonplace practice.
I have to strongly disagree that twinking has a small effect on the economy. It inflates the cost of lower level items to the point where in some games they are much more expensive than their higher level equivalents. This, in fact, was the sole reason behind my one and only purchase of gold: it was an established game with so many alts that you couldn't reasonably gear yourself up if you were just starting out. Also, you're bringing in botting and making the assumption that gold farmers are being exploited, when you know that neither of these are necessarily always the case. However, let's make the assumption again that I've received gold from a buddy of mine. In return, lets say I give him a case of beer to show my gratitude. Now am I a cheater? I also find it interesting that you have no problem with setting up your own alts, even though this gives that alt an unfair advantage. I'm guessing you have nothing wrong with it ethically because it is a much more commonplace practice.
The first part is true. It does inflate prices...in most cases.
The buying beer part, your grasping at straws now and being ridiculous. And re-read my previous post where I addressed the rights and wrongs of twinking alts (PvE, PvP). I personally have twinked my alts. But I mainly did it through acquiring the gear with my high level that I have, NOT through buying gear on the AH. There is that option.
I'm not grasping at straws; I'm trying to identify where the line is drawn.
From what I understand:
- Paying money to a stranger for gold is cheating - Receiving a gift of gold from a friend is not cheating
What I would like clarified:
- Receiving a gift of gold from a stranger - Giving a non-monetary gift to a stranger in exchange for gold - Paying money to a friend for gold - Giving a non-monetary gift to a friend in exchange for gold
Personally, I think you're wasting your money on a virtual asset. USD is harder to get than ISK or gold. Gold is easy to farm and the point is, the games a hobby not real life. Why would I waste my real life money on a game I'm already paying for when I can already EARN those items in-game. My point is, it's a game. You want to earn these things. I sold accounts on Halo 3 because I could 50's in MLG easily. Well, those people didn't earn those 50's and so no one liked them. Same thing applies here. You didn't earn you status i.e. gear, wealth, level. So no one will respect you.
When you grind for ten hours rather than work for an hour to buy the same thing, you are in effect wasting real life money on a game. After all, you could be working during those ten hours. Time = money, bottom line and no one has any substantive argument against it.
When you people talk about how stupid it is to pay money for digital gear, do you ever stop to think about the time you paid instead of money? Obviously not.
Some of the fun for me is to see how I manage to handle it myself, and buying gold just seems like you're less involved in the game you already might be paying to play.
Besides it's usually against the rules and can get you banned from the game, plus it makes everything playersold much more expensive, it messes with the ingame economy and makes it unfair for those that don't buy gold.
I don't know how many goldsellers I've petitioned, but it's alot!
I have bought gold, and the way I see it, buying gold is buying time. I don't get an advantage that you can't get from grinding, except for not spending all my time on a game.
"The purpose of our lives is to be happy" *Dalai Lama
I'm not grasping at straws; I'm trying to identify where the line is drawn. From what I understand: - Paying money to a stranger for gold is cheating
- Receiving a gift of gold from a friend is not cheating What I would like clarified: - Receiving a gift of gold from a stranger
- Giving a non-monetary gift to a stranger in exchange for gold
- Paying money to a friend for gold
- Giving a non-monetary gift to a friend in exchange for gold
You really shouldn't try to get into a logical conversation with these guys. Logic is not their forte. They're just extremists.
Hello kettle, I'm pot. It's just that most of us have played MMO's since their birth and know the way they were intended to be played and work. Unlike some of you who apparently have no idea and started with WoW.
Your just trying to justify buying in-game money, that you obviously do. No matter what you may say, it's cheating, and MMO's are time-based games not meant to be blown through in a month. Go play XBox 360 if you want fast gratification.
As I said earlier, part of the fun is the journey. Would you pay $50 for a game you've already beaten? Ultimately that is what you are doing. Your by-passing that journey to get to top level faster to be 1337 and show off your phat lootz (That you didn't earn through the way the game intended).
Personally, I think you're wasting your money on a virtual asset. USD is harder to get than ISK or gold. Gold is easy to farm and the point is, the games a hobby not real life. Why would I waste my real life money on a game I'm already paying for when I can already EARN those items in-game. My point is, it's a game. You want to earn these things. I sold accounts on Halo 3 because I could 50's in MLG easily. Well, those people didn't earn those 50's and so no one liked them. Same thing applies here. You didn't earn you status i.e. gear, wealth, level. So no one will respect you.
When you grind for ten hours rather than work for an hour to buy the same thing, you are in effect wasting real life money on a game. After all, you could be working during those ten hours. Time = money, bottom line and no one has any substantive argument against it.
When you people talk about how stupid it is to pay money for digital gear, do you ever stop to think about the time you paid instead of money? Obviously not.
Then you should work every waking hour of every day for the rest of your life, no idea what your working for, but time = money.
Comments
Okay. One more time. I'll go slow.
1. Games have rules.
2. These rules are necessary to have game; they define what the game is.
3. Many MMOs have a rule against buying gold.
4. Cheating is defined as breaking a game's rules.
5. Therefore, buying gold in MMOs that have a rule against it is cheating.
I'm not sure I can break it down further, but if you still don't understand, I suppose you could tell me where you're not following and I can try to explain it more.
In WoW's case, please someone tell me the point in:
Getting lvls 1-79
Farming Dailies + Playing their BAD economy to buy the 20k mount (or any other mount for that matter)
Neither one is fun, neither one has a point, neither one makes sense. WoW's endgame is ok, raids and dungeons are done pretty well. But, the rest of the game is boring as hell. It's not because I had done it so many times, or it's not because it was new. My first time around at launch I made it to lvl 35 and was like "WTF AM I DOING?" and unsubbed.
WoW should just go ahead and take a lesson from GW and let you start at 80. Their attempt at this did nothing but kill PVP with an OP spell that does no damage. So, they try to fix it by giving everyone bucu xp for doing BGs.
And you wonder why Botting and Powerleveling is so bad there?
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
Losers, those who sell and those who buy. All of them need to die...look I made a rhyme=) j/k
The whole problem with gold selling/buying illustrates a deeper problem in my eyes. We should remember that people come to an MMO to have fun and, obviously, you can conclude that people buy gold because they want to take a shortcut on a less interesting part of the game to a part that is more interesting for them.
Having a job in management and a family to take care of, I have myself cursed at the time spent farming consumables and gold to be able to participate in end game activities that required them. Time spent doing a repetitive task with no fun or purpose in itself but with the only purpose of preparing for something else that I considered fun. In this I think the problem is and the motivation for people to take the shortcut and buy gold. It's the same as having a private cleaner, gardener etc. - you get someone else to do tasks for you that you consider boring to have time to do the stuff you consider fun and compensate with money. There's a moral difference, but I think that "moral" in the online games isn't something that is as settled and agreed upon as the normal moral matters in the real world.
I agree it ruins game economy and that it long term is an evil spiral. In order to accommodate for the large amounts of gold going around games add money sinks. While this short-term helps the inflation, it, in my opinion, long term rather encourages even more money to be pumped out to accommodate for peoples' lust for these items as well.
Making sure people are able to have fun with what they do is one of the keys to solving the gold farming/inflation problem.
I realize that general vanity about gear, wanting to be the best kitted, showing off the best items etc. is another aspect that encourages taking shortcuts. Success and failure in most MMOs are tightly connected with it and for very many the easy successes ("easy" compared to real life) you can achieve in an MMO is what keeps them spellbound and working/farming hard without there really being much fun in it. Now - solving that problem (if it is a problem at all...) is a completely different matter and I must admit that I don't really see a solution to that bit.
We can try to set a moral standard for the people we come in contact with and choose to not socialize/play/raid/pvp/be in guild with people that don't comply to these standards just like we wouldn't associate with real life criminals in real life. And we can try to keep focus on playing the games and supporting the developers that do most to avoid the problem. In the end, however, I don't think we'll really see MMOs without some kind of trading between real life money and in-game items/money/whatever and must lean back and remember that an MMO is after all a game we play to have fun and the person that took the shortcut hasn't gotten the same experience than us who keep the right path.
Any game with or without gold farming will have inflation of economy. As soon as enough people reach max level and start alts they will have the cash to pay prices that low level or new characters can not match. On the opposite side EVE Online that allows Isk buying has not had crazy inflation. If anything it has made raw materials cheaper.
Anyone that falls back on the morality side of the issue is just angry they do not have the money to buy gold themselves.
Okay. One more time. I'll go slow.
1. Games have rules.
2. These rules are necessary to have game; they define what the game is.
3. Many MMOs have a rule against buying gold.
4. Cheating is defined as breaking a game's rules.
5. Therefore, buying gold in MMOs that have a rule against it is cheating.
I'm not sure I can break it down further, but if you still don't understand, I suppose you could tell me where you're not following and I can try to explain it more.
Using any recourse not provided to naturally by the developers would be cheating unless said developer allows for such thing (i.e. most Add-Ons for WoW aren't cheating because the developers allow you to use them). Bots, hacks, and gold buying are all things that the developers do not allow you to use because they create an imbalance in the game that gives one player an advantage over another. If you buy gold then you can get better gear more quickly and that isn't fair to someone who is doing it how you are supposed to. You could argue that the other player could buy gold too, but that is just someone trying to justify either own behavior due to some self riteous notion that everything they do it right and there are no questions. No matter how many times you polish a terd is it still a terd.If MMOs were just some offline game that you can go in and edit the game code so everytime you click your mouse you 10k gold and then you are just cheating yourself out of the expereince. For instance you can go on ebay and find game saves that people will sell you so you get unlock all different characters or options from the start of your expereince. You are just cheating yourself by doing that because you are skipping all the challenge in the middle to get there (and I'd argue that you have some major psychological issues with failure ... but different thread).
In an MMO your actions impact everyone it is something that specially the younger people don't understand. They see themselves playing a game and can't perceive other people playing the game too. It is almost like you are on your cell phone talking to people while playing a game. If you decided to hit an area where people exp off mobs and you come through are 30-40 levels higher and can wipe all the mobs out in a minute, you are impacting the people getting exp. Now they don't have anything to kill, but what do you care you did what you wanted to do it is only a game after all. What are they going to do about it?
The same goes with gold buying. You might see it as you getting a sword quickly but if said sword costs a million gold. So you go to some website and buy it. Now there is an extra million gold in the economy that should be there. There is also one less sword on the market. Four more people the same thing: supply goes down, demand stays level, price goes up. Now #6 comes by and sees the price went up he legitimatly earned all his money, but now needs more than he needed a day or so ago. He turns to buying and more money gets put into the economy and everything snowballs. What happens is first off prices inflate to levels that are not fair to anyone. New comers to the game see prices for a level 2 item is priced 50 times what they earned getting from 1 to 2. They give up on the game thus your influx of new people that an MMO needs to survive is cut off and your MMO slowly starts to die. It isn't one person causing the problem, it is a community issue, but one person who does it leave the door open for 10 others to do it.
You could make the argument that the money is already in the economy for you to buy it. This isn't entirly false. The money is there. However the money is stored away from the economy. It is like someone keeping their life savings in their mattress. That money isn't being released into the economy it is being horded. Also consider this. Typically people who sell gold are ones who are playing constantly and camping mobs for drops 24-7. So said million gold sword is aquired by seller x then they sell you the gold to buy the sword and then you give them the gold back for the sword. So in the end they have the same million gold they started with and $20-$50 from you irl. Tell me that doesn't seem shady to you.
Trust me I was one of the people who though this gold selling was a good idea at first. I thought that if I could play and earn money for a month, then I could sell my gold to a company and that money I'd get would pay for my play for the month. So basically I'd be playing for free. I never did it because soon there after I heard it was against the ToS and scraped the idea. I didn't think of gold buying or selling for the longest time until there was a major influx of sellers in FFXI and I saw first hand the deterioration of the economy (Things that were 200k one month were 18m the next). The same was on life support until SE got moving and starting banning people who trafficked gold. I saw people bitching and complaining that they wanted the sellers back so they could by get their million gil swords. I sware I have seen herloin junkies go through withdrawl easier than these people.
Slowly the things have gotten back to normal. In fact things that were 200k and then 18m are down below thier original prices and down to 125k. Thus people are bitching again because with the increase in prices came an increase in inventory to cash in on the high prices and now there is a surplus of supply ... that and the game is 7 years old now. It was really hard to watch and even harder for someone to describe to people who don't want to understand. Everything everyone does imapcts everyone else. The people who feel they are entitled to do what they want because they feel they have the right do it without reguard for anyone else is a cancer on a society, be it virtual or reality.
I have only purchased gold in one game, Guild Wars, and I think it was encouraged rather than discouraged in that game. A buddy of mine was playing and decided he wanted better armor so we went together and bought a hellacious amount of in game currency, been too long ago for me to even remember the currency type. We got our armor and weapons and we were gods, but we both quickly lost all enthusiasm for the game because there was no challenge anymore, we already had what we were fighting for in everything but level.
I was often accused of purchasing money in WoW but I had the grandest luck on drops and could make 300-500g a day just killing mobs and selling the loot. After I struggled to pay for my Paladin mount 3 months into the game I made a toon built to make money, a rogue. After he made 60 I never had money problems again, the mobs in EP always droped epics for me so he lived there and made money for the rest of my toons. When I transfered to Horde we would put a trash item on the AH in Gadget and buy it with a Alliance toon for a greatly inflated sum. It worked and didn't break the rules of the game.
EVE allows for people who don't like to play the parts of the game they might find boring, to fork over some more dough to get past the boring parts. Isn't it a strange coincidence that many activities in EVE are widely considered boring? If your OK with that then feel free, but I'm pretty sure the topic is more related to games that don't allow for this sort of thing.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I would answer the question buy l am too busy buying gold atm...
I bought gold once ... ^_^
And I'm the schlub going 55 on the highway getting honked at for NOT speeding so you have some nerve passing judgments on this poster - I do none of those things. Is it so unbelieveable that some ppl have morals and follow the laws? Is that so unfathomable? Damn, I must be an alien. I don't date men for money. I don't cheat other ppl to get ahead. I don't lie to save your feelings. I don't excuse everything I do flippantly as if it never affects anyone else. What kind of society are we in that anyone that would call out deplorable behaviour must be the ones that are secretly at fault.
Least of all do I cheat in a damn video game - I can pass judgment on those that do because they have no excuse and they do affect the game around me in economy in prices but you've heard my opinion - disgusting freaking cheaters. Once again, get caught and deserve it.
Doubt you walk on water nearly as much as you think you do. And if you are that noble, you are one in a 100K and I've yet to meet anyone like you in my entire life, (and I'm pretty old) not even my pastor stands that tall.
Back on topic, RMT doesn't impact games nearly as much as the people who decry it say it does, especially in a game like WOW or EVE where good game design negates any real impact from it.
Lineage 2 was different, gear was very expensive in the early days, and you could either grind for months to earn the next tier, or buy adena and purchase it instead. Blame the game design more than the players.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've played both games so I know the economies, thanks. Also, I'm not against people using their hard earned game cash to fund their habit. But, when you go to purchase better gear for your habit using your countries currency, then I have a minor problem. I'm a bit dissappointed in people who think they need to purchase these things when they are attainable from hard work. Also, I go to school full-time, so I have plenty on my plate. But I find time to enjoy activities as playing my MMO's and maintaining a social life. So I hate excuses that some use, now some may be true but how would I know? I still feel it's a waste to purchase a virtual asset. This is why Congress wanted to tax in game transactions. :[
One more time, i have a job and dont feel the need to cheat... and for the guy asking how much time we play i answered that in a thread in which casuals were taking some flak. 1-2 hr a day through the week plus 4-6 hr in both sat and sun. I estimated 16-20 hr a week...
This whole "i can cheat cuz leveling/grinding is boring" thing is just bs. You cant cheat your way to the end on most other forms of competitive play. Its like a chess player complaining the games take too long or that hes weak at opening... Ever tried playing Risk with small children? They get bored with the strategic part and just wanna jump to dice rolling on ridiculous amounts of soldiers... You people just dont want to pay your dues, its suposed to be a steep way to the top. Ive seen what happens in games where you allow people to buy everything... and trust me, you wont be on the top there either because a 12 yr old with access to a CC will always be more willing to spend money that someone who actually has to earn it.
Many of us are determined to avoid micros like the plague, when you buy gold in a game that doesnt allow it youre cheating us out of an even competition amongst adults. Seriously, in what other way than anonimously, or in what other thing that isnt MMOs would you advocate cheating? If a wep is meant for someone to put in 200-300 hrs farming it you dont deserve it, its meant for elite players. Im unfamiliar with Eve, but from the way people describe it its got p2p plus micros... a model which, if succesful, will not only turn MMOs into an expensive form of entertainment, but will end anything resembling fairness in gameplay. Rules will always tilt towards big spenders. It takes thousands of dollars to be competitive in an f2p, thats what youre taking us all towards to. Youre destroying the games youre suposed to "like"
Im reminded of people who tried to cheat on old pnp games, theyd be very subtle about it (modifying a stat here and there) but would always get caught. I mean were talking groups of 5-6 people here. And they would try to justify themselves as trying to keep up or the game being too hard or their having botched stats cuz they didn't have time to read the books. It's pathetic to see a cheater caught...
There are private servers that allow you to get to endgame in a couple of days, why not try those? Some actually have something of a population and you get to buy gold too in case every mob dropping a raids worth of loot isnt enough for you. Oh, but you wouldnt actually feel like you were playing the game in those?
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
If you believe time equals money i must say you did pick the wrong hobby.
Yours is an argument thats actually very familiar to me, i mean grand theft auto can net you a couple of months worth of honest work in just about an hour... and there is adifference in between a friend giving you a car as a gift and you buying a stolen vehicle. But lets put ethics aside for a minute.
Why not buy an acount? Theres only a diference in degree from saving yourself 10 hours grinding to actually getting to level cap without any effort. And while youre at it why wouldnt you get some endgear too? I mean, anyway you slice it actual irl work will always be more cost effective than playing. I mean you probably just want to raid or PvP anyway... both of which you could do more efectively playing an fps. I mean, you could save yourself both time and money just doing that. Theyve got massive comunities as well. You get to have your cake and eat it too.
The whole point to an MMORPG is advancing on a persistent world. You put time and effort (ideally have fun doing it) and the end result is you get to be part of a competitive comunity. If youre taking shortcuts not only are you a lying fraud (on the comunity side) but you really arent competitive at all. Leaving morals aside, whats the point? Or do you think that because you only cheated a little it doesnt take anything away from that?
Gold farmers have a very negative effect on the comunity as a whole. Ok, so perhaps this doesnt affect you because you dont stick around for long. What are people with this mentality doing playing games that require so much time? Is it that you like to go to cities and show off? Brag about what you actually didnt acomplish? Is it the char creation and playing dress up with toons? Or is it "necesity"? Cant keep up with the no lifers but want to have all the perks. Or maybe you just think they should provide with a mount from day one? Because if they did im fairly certain youd be missing something else and whatever it is the point is you want what other people have without putting in the effort.
Its kinda like wanting to be a rock star but not wanting to go trough the effort of learning how to play an instrument. If you follow your own argument through there really is no reason to play an MMO at all...
Tvalentine,
Try reading the quoted post above and comprehend it. MMORPG's are time-based games. NOT instant gratification based games like console FPS games or any other console game, which is where you seem better suited if you want instant fun and gratification.
Part of the fun of an MMO is the journey, and is also the point of them. It's what separates them from other games out there, and is where the RPG portion of the abbreviation comes into play. You become more attached to your character and the game through the appreciation of what you've worked for to get. NOT through what's been handed to you via the use of your credit card. Or your parents credit card if that's the case. Also, buying gold has long term negative effects on the community and economy of a given server. As the above poster mentioned, I am willing to bet since you want to buy in-game cash to quicken your fun (As you say), I'm also willing to bet you don't stick around in a given game long enough to see the effects it has on a server.
It's players like you who rush to the top level, and then complain there isn't enough content for end game players. If on a PvE server, you rage quit, if on a PvP server, probably one of the players who go around endlessly ganking low levels and talk trash about how leet you are despite having bought outside sources gear.
What's the first MMO you ever played? Bet it's WoW. If not, I appologize, but I bet it is. If not, then it's even sadder that this is your way of thinking. THAT game introduced easy-mode instant gratification to MMO's. I don't care what anyone says. And now every one of those 11 million subs think every MMO should do the same. Most of them have no idea what an MMORPG is suppose to be about, because they haven't played anything but it prior to. I feel sorry for those players, really.
As far as EVE as you mentioned...how much immature idiocy do you see in chat there? Not much, because CCP stuck with making their game have a harsh learning curve, and it takes loads of time to become good. It would be pointless to keep buying ISK in that game without the proper skills (Which are real time based learning). Probably rage quit that game too at some point. It's mainly the younger people who want everything now now now. For those players, the XBox 360 is waiting for you. I find it ironic that games are mainly made with children in mind...and they are the ones who destroy them.
I'm curious about people's thoughts on:
a) A friend giving you gold when you first start out
b) Sending money to your alts or twinking
Are these considered cheating also? Or is it only cheating when a monetary transaction is involved?
It seems to me that in both of these examples you're receiving something that you (or that particular character) has not "earned".
Good points. The way I see it....
1.) If they earned the gold through their own efforts, nothing wrong with it. If they bought gold via a gold farmer, it is cheating, and you'd be (Possibly unknowingly) contributing to it.
2. Again, if you earned the gold through the ways the game allows, nothing wrong with twinking your other characters, you earned it after all.
If a friend gives you the gold, sure, you didn't EARN it yourself, but if it isn't gold farmer bought gold, it isn't cheating. It's a gift then and should be appreciated and later possibly reimbursed when you yourself have the means to do so. Via in-game ways, NOT through buying gold yourself.
Your nitpicking about twinking characters. They are still YOUR characters, and you've earned the gold, even if it wasn't for that character, you've earned it. You can do with the gold what you want. But it's also a fine line. In a PvE game, it doesn't really matter as much about twinking a toon, other than to be more efficient soloing or in a dungeon crawl group. But in PvP, it unbalances things for other players when your toon has gear it shouldn't have yet, or at least not so easily have and puts you at an unfair advantage.
Although I see your points, the point to a lot of people's posts here is that buying gold from outside sources ruins a game's economy and playability for others (Especially PvP based MMO's). And the fact that MMO's are time based games and not instant gratification games like console games, that some shouldn't be playing MMOs if that is what they are looking for because they don't have the time to put in.
When you hit "accept" after scrolling down the EULA of an MMO (That I bet 98% don't read), you agree to play by those rules (That you don't read). Most include the prohibiting of buying in-game currency from outside sources. No matter what some say, it's cheating and unbalances the game for others who play the game as it was intended to be played.
In both scenarios the ingame currency was earned by someone well entitled to do as they please with it. Gold farmers either bot (cheat) or exploit people in the third world (much worse than cheating). Also, the effect on the economies for these scenarios are dismissable whereas gold farmers have a very negative impact. This ofc leaves a gray area for people selling gold on their own, personally i don't aprove of it but cant say i believe a company should go out of its way to stop it.
Cheating involves breaking a games rules, setting up your alts doesnt and neither does gift giving. Monetary transactions are however a breach of ToS (on most games) so yes, it's cheating.
Just to make things clear...
I speak for myself and no one else, unless i state otherwise mine is just an opinion. A fact is something that can be independently verified, you may challenge such but with proof. You have every right to disagree with me through sound argument, i believe in constructive debate, but baseless aggression will warrant an unkind response.
I have to strongly disagree that twinking has a small effect on the economy. It inflates the cost of lower level items to the point where in some games they are much more expensive than their higher level equivalents. This, in fact, was the sole reason behind my one and only purchase of gold: it was an established game with so many alts that you couldn't reasonably gear yourself up if you were just starting out.
Also, you're bringing in botting and making the assumption that gold farmers are being exploited, when you know that neither of these are necessarily always the case.
However, let's make the assumption again that I've received gold from a buddy of mine. In return, lets say I give him a case of beer to show my gratitude. Now am I a cheater? I also find it interesting that you have no problem with setting up your own alts, even though this gives that alt an unfair advantage. I'm guessing you have nothing wrong with it ethically because it is a much more commonplace practice.
The first part is true. It does inflate prices...in most cases.
The buying beer part, your grasping at straws now and being ridiculous. And re-read my previous post where I addressed the rights and wrongs of twinking alts (PvE, PvP). I personally have twinked my alts. But I mainly did it through acquiring the gear with my high level that I have, NOT through buying gear on the AH. There is that option.
I'm not grasping at straws; I'm trying to identify where the line is drawn.
From what I understand:
- Paying money to a stranger for gold is cheating
- Receiving a gift of gold from a friend is not cheating
What I would like clarified:
- Receiving a gift of gold from a stranger
- Giving a non-monetary gift to a stranger in exchange for gold
- Paying money to a friend for gold
- Giving a non-monetary gift to a friend in exchange for gold
When you grind for ten hours rather than work for an hour to buy the same thing, you are in effect wasting real life money on a game. After all, you could be working during those ten hours. Time = money, bottom line and no one has any substantive argument against it.
When you people talk about how stupid it is to pay money for digital gear, do you ever stop to think about the time you paid instead of money? Obviously not.
I've never bought gold, and I doubt I'll ever do.
Some of the fun for me is to see how I manage to handle it myself, and buying gold just seems like you're less involved in the game you already might be paying to play.
Besides it's usually against the rules and can get you banned from the game, plus it makes everything playersold much more expensive, it messes with the ingame economy and makes it unfair for those that don't buy gold.
I don't know how many goldsellers I've petitioned, but it's alot!
I have bought gold, and the way I see it, buying gold is buying time. I don't get an advantage that you can't get from grinding, except for not spending all my time on a game.
"The purpose of our lives is to be happy"
*Dalai Lama
You really shouldn't try to get into a logical conversation with these guys. Logic is not their forte. They're just extremists.
Hello kettle, I'm pot. It's just that most of us have played MMO's since their birth and know the way they were intended to be played and work. Unlike some of you who apparently have no idea and started with WoW.
Your just trying to justify buying in-game money, that you obviously do. No matter what you may say, it's cheating, and MMO's are time-based games not meant to be blown through in a month. Go play XBox 360 if you want fast gratification.
As I said earlier, part of the fun is the journey. Would you pay $50 for a game you've already beaten? Ultimately that is what you are doing. Your by-passing that journey to get to top level faster to be 1337 and show off your phat lootz (That you didn't earn through the way the game intended).
When you grind for ten hours rather than work for an hour to buy the same thing, you are in effect wasting real life money on a game. After all, you could be working during those ten hours. Time = money, bottom line and no one has any substantive argument against it.
When you people talk about how stupid it is to pay money for digital gear, do you ever stop to think about the time you paid instead of money? Obviously not.
Then you should work every waking hour of every day for the rest of your life, no idea what your working for, but time = money.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."