I myself somehow relate to both sides, from one side being a ST fan, and having played many pen And paper ST games back in the 80's and early 90's, from FASA's Tactical Combat Simulator and Amarillo's SFB, to the countless Role Play games (that were much like D&D pen and paper).
I understand the people like the OP who want Ship interiors and various Ship roles of Science officers, helm and Tactical officers, medical and Engineering officers heck even Security (red shirts hehe).
I myself played many of these roles within that context.
On the other hand I also relate to the MMOG crowd that is counter argumenting, having been playing MMOG's since Ultima Online in the later 90's, I can see how it could be very difficult to transpose the subordinate roles that were possible in a Pen and paper game to an MMORPG game.
Even if SWG stands as testimony that the line between the two is not that big after all, let us not forget that even in SWG crewing and commanding a Millenium Falcon type of ship did not really require more than 2 to 3 individuals.
It is true that many people will voluntarily choose to play the role of the engineer and the role of the science officer or the doctor heck, i am sure that there will be people to play the role of the Barber and the Cook too, the issue is not there the issue from a design perspective is numbers.
How many of these people will there be and can their numbers justify the costs involved in developing such a system? That is the Dev's challenge, it is not due to a lack of creativity, and having identified the limitations of the design they will promote and stand by the selected design.
There is no Dev that will say "Yes we knew how to do this and it is what we wanted as well but we did not get a go ahead from the producers so we settled for each player having their own Ship"...instead they will say what they have been saying. "We think it was not fun to have the player be an engineer and we think everyone would want to be a captain".
Now, that being said, I think STO, can certainly add those RPG mechanics in a future expansion instead, when the game has released and shows potential growth and success, lets not forget that it is a business too with very big investments.
And unfortunatelly we do not lve in the post Zephram Cochrane Era....we live in the an Era where we live our lives in the pursuit of material aquisitions and wealth...
The good thing about this all is that the RPG element is still there, the Away missions on land will attract the RPG pen and paper fans just as well. And in Space the game will be more like the Tactical Combat Simulator or SFB's, where each player commanded a ship.
I think the best of both worlds, and having been following the devellopment of STO I think they did a good job on the exploration side as well.
Lets not forget that Cryptic accomplished what previous Companies were not able to, the IP is very vast and Star Trek is a huge Universe with more than 40 years History behind it.
I say, it is a darn good beginning and about time we finally have an MMORPG for it! Lets give it the opportunity to grow! (SWG did not have Space when it launched Either all that was added later).
Cheers!
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I myself somehow relate to both sides... ...from one side being a ST fan ... I understand the people like the OP who want Ship interiors and various Ship roles of Science officers, helm and Tactical officers, medical and Engineering officers heck even Security (red shirts hehe). ... On the other hand I also relate to the MMOG crowd that is counter argumenting, having been playing MMOG's since Ultima Online in the later 90's, I can see how it could be very difficult to transpose the subordinate roles that were possible in a Pen and paper game to an MMORPG game.
See, here is one big misconception that is being perpertrated in these threads. The idea that all the Star Trek fans are on one side of the debate and all the MMO players are on the other side of the debate is not correct!
Now, I've watched a lot of Star Trek down through the years, I'm not going to deny that. But I place myself into the MMO crowd for sure because thats something I'm much more interested in and something I've dedicated much more of my time to. I've played virtually every major (non-asian) MMO released in the past ten years and I was playing MUDs, multiplayer games over the internet and a hell of a lot of other types of video games for atleast another 10 to 15 years before that. And its BECAUSE of all that experience I've had with this industry (rather than in spite of it) that I'm dissapointed with the direction that Cryptic has taken with this game.
Cryptic had a chance to do something new, interesting and innovative with this game. Instead they choose to take the "safe" path and stick to their usual formula. In fact, they are sticking so closely to their standard formula that they are even reusing the engine from their super hero game. This industry is SCREAMING for something new and innovative that breaks away from the tradational mold but Cryptic is refusing to take a risk. Thats just plan sad to me. Its the same kind of thinking which gave us some of the other recent crappy MMOs like AoC and WAR. And as both a Star Trek fan AND a life long gamer I just think its time we do something different.
I myself somehow relate to both sides... ...from one side being a ST fan ... I understand the people like the OP who want Ship interiors and various Ship roles of Science officers, helm and Tactical officers, medical and Engineering officers heck even Security (red shirts hehe). ... On the other hand I also relate to the MMOG crowd that is counter argumenting, having been playing MMOG's since Ultima Online in the later 90's, I can see how it could be very difficult to transpose the subordinate roles that were possible in a Pen and paper game to an MMORPG game.
See, here is one big misconception that is being perpertrated in these threads. The idea that all the Star Trek fans are on one side of the debate and all the MMO players are on the other side of the debate is not correct!
Now, I've watched a lot of Star Trek down through the years, I'm not going to deny that. But I place myself into the MMO crowd for sure because thats something I'm much more interested in and something I've dedicated much more of my time to. I've played virtually every major (non-asian) MMO released in the past ten years and I was playing MUDs, multiplayer games over the internet and a hell of a lot of other types of video games for atleast another 10 to 15 years before that. And its BECAUSE of all that experience I've had with this industry (rather than in spite of it) that I'm dissapointed with the direction that Cryptic has taken with this game.
Cryptic had a chance to do something new, interesting and innovative with this game. Instead they choose to take the "safe" path and stick to their usual formula. In fact, they are sticking so closely to their standard formula that they are even reusing the engine from their super hero game. This industry is SCREAMING for something new and innovative that breaks away from the tradational mold but Cryptic is refusing to take a risk. Thats just plan sad to me. Its the same kind of thinking which gave us some of the other recent crappy MMOs like AoC and WAR. And as both a Star Treak fan AND a life long gamer I just think its time we do something different.
Sorry friend but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. I doubt we are going to see any significant changes coming our way and I even question the carrot feeding system that SW:TOR may become. They are continually pushing the envelope in one area though and that's making it even easier for couch potatoes to one click through anything.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
I share your sentiment as well. Ironically, I feel that the only Company that can take the risk to break the mold at this time, is Blizzard haha.
I laugh with Irony at times...btw, something different did release this year but everyone is blasting it...Darkfall released this year, and while it may not be different to some of us (those that played UO and before)...it still got rejected by this industry that is screaming for something new ....how about that?
Additionally, if the Industry is not giving us something new it is because of well established business principles, which dictate that as long as something is profitable there is no need for change, exploit it to the last drop...at least, this is what the financiers and producers behind many of these project think...
The fact that AOC and WAR did not do well under that formulae should be indications to others that the Community is not ready to accept more of the same...
But lest come back to the subject at hand.
I am not separating the ST fans in to one side, I am rather made a distinction towards the ST fans that also over the years engaged in to Pen and Paper RPG games as being on one side, albeit I may not have been too clear about it I reckon.
I myself am in between, and I think STO is looking good thus far, I am definitely looking forward to it even if it is not a Sandbox MMO it is not that something "different", it will undoubtedly give me the opportunity to get a small peace of the Star Trek universe nevertheless and at this time I find this very Satisfactory.
And I think, if you have been playing MMOG's for as long as you claim, you can also agree that today's Player base has grown to be rather unappreciative at times with many expectations.
And the bottom line is that STO may not be everything, but it is not nothing either, it is certainly Something!
So lets taste and see if we appreciate that something first before we go all gloom and doom about it, what say thee?
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I share your sentiment as well. Ironically, I feel that the only Company that can take the risk to break the mold at this time, is Blizzard haha.
Blizzard havn't done that since Diablo and Warcraft 1. They just don't work that way anymore.
No, there are other companies that work that way, like Bioware and Arenanet. Blizzard will take someone else game and polish it up. It have worked great so far so why stop now?
Wow, what an interesting thread :P Both sides make very interesting points. I myself somehow relate to both sides, from one side being a ST fan, and having played many pen And paper ST games back in the 80's and early 90's, from FASA's Tactical Combat Simulator and Amarillo's SFB, to the countless Role Play games (that were much like D&D pen and paper). I understand the people like the OP who want Ship interiors and various Ship roles of Science officers, helm and Tactical officers, medical and Engineering officers heck even Security (red shirts hehe). I myself played many of these roles within that context. On the other hand I also relate to the MMOG crowd that is counter argumenting, having been playing MMOG's since Ultima Online in the later 90's, I can see how it could be very difficult to transpose the subordinate roles that were possible in a Pen and paper game to an MMORPG game. Even if SWG stands as testimony that the line between the two is not that big after all, let us not forget that even in SWG crewing and commanding a Millenium Falcon type of ship did not really require more than 2 to 3 individuals. It is true that many people will voluntarily choose to play the role of the engineer and the role of the science officer or the doctor heck, i am sure that there will be people to play the role of the Barber and the Cook too, the issue is not there the issue from a design perspective is numbers. How many of these people will there be and can their numbers justify the costs involved in developing such a system? That is the Dev's challenge, it is not due to a lack of creativity, and having identified the limitations of the design they will promote and stand by the selected design. There is no Dev that will say "Yes we knew how to do this and it is what we wanted as well but we did not get a go ahead from the producers so we settled for each player having their own Ship"...instead they will say what they have been saying. "We think it was not fun to have the player be an engineer and we think everyone would want to be a captain". Now, that being said, I think STO, can certainly add those RPG mechanics in a future expansion instead, when the game has released and shows potential growth and success, lets not forget that it is a business too with very big investments. And unfortunatelly we do not lve in the post Zephram Cochrane Era....we live in the an Era where we live our lives in the pursuit of material aquisitions and wealth... The good thing about this all is that the RPG element is still there, the Away missions on land will attract the RPG pen and paper fans just as well. And in Space the game will be more like the Tactical Combat Simulator or SFB's, where each player commanded a ship. I think the best of both worlds, and having been following the devellopment of STO I think they did a good job on the exploration side as well. Lets not forget that Cryptic accomplished what previous Companies were not able to, the IP is very vast and Star Trek is a huge Universe with more than 40 years History behind it. I say, it is a darn good beginning and about time we finally have an MMORPG for it! Lets give it the opportunity to grow! (SWG did not have Space when it launched Either all that was added later). Cheers!
Agree on all counts. I fail to see the WOW clone that so many people are claiming this game to be. The complaints about instancing is hilarious when you consider the IP. The ships warped from one place to the next. How did people think that was to be accomplished without instancing? The crew always beams down to planets. Again, how is instancing going to ruin this? One poster here was caught railing against the official site even though he himself never visited it. He just automatically assumed that was how it was. So many complaints of non-innovation by the naysayers without a shred of reasoning behind it. The game isn't even in Beta yet some people already know they hate it. I'll make sure to check with them the next time I play the lottery since they are so adept at predicting the future
The complaints about instancing is hilarious when you consider the IP. The ships warped from one place to the next. How did people think that was to be accomplished without instancing?
You have never played EvE Online I take it? Ships in that game warp all over the place and there is no such thing as an instance in that game. Even when you warp into your own private mission area during a PvE mission it is still part of regular space and you can warp out of it at any time, without a loading screen. You are still in the same game world with everyone else.
If the EvE developers can create a MASSIVE universe with thousands of systems and not use a single instance then it can clearly be done in STO as well. If the STO devs say they can't do it, I would suspect that has a lot to do with the fact they are attempting to reuse a game engine that was designed for a purely ground based super hero game.
Once again, I'm not a Star Trek fanboy, I'm just a gamer who has played many other MMOs and seen what this industry can do when they actually put their minds to it... and I also see how low the STO devs are setting the bar. Its just sad they claim they CAN'T deliver what many other games already have.
Comments
Wow, what an interesting thread :P
Both sides make very interesting points.
I myself somehow relate to both sides, from one side being a ST fan, and having played many pen And paper ST games back in the 80's and early 90's, from FASA's Tactical Combat Simulator and Amarillo's SFB, to the countless Role Play games (that were much like D&D pen and paper).
I understand the people like the OP who want Ship interiors and various Ship roles of Science officers, helm and Tactical officers, medical and Engineering officers heck even Security (red shirts hehe).
I myself played many of these roles within that context.
On the other hand I also relate to the MMOG crowd that is counter argumenting, having been playing MMOG's since Ultima Online in the later 90's, I can see how it could be very difficult to transpose the subordinate roles that were possible in a Pen and paper game to an MMORPG game.
Even if SWG stands as testimony that the line between the two is not that big after all, let us not forget that even in SWG crewing and commanding a Millenium Falcon type of ship did not really require more than 2 to 3 individuals.
It is true that many people will voluntarily choose to play the role of the engineer and the role of the science officer or the doctor heck, i am sure that there will be people to play the role of the Barber and the Cook too, the issue is not there the issue from a design perspective is numbers.
How many of these people will there be and can their numbers justify the costs involved in developing such a system? That is the Dev's challenge, it is not due to a lack of creativity, and having identified the limitations of the design they will promote and stand by the selected design.
There is no Dev that will say "Yes we knew how to do this and it is what we wanted as well but we did not get a go ahead from the producers so we settled for each player having their own Ship"...instead they will say what they have been saying. "We think it was not fun to have the player be an engineer and we think everyone would want to be a captain".
Now, that being said, I think STO, can certainly add those RPG mechanics in a future expansion instead, when the game has released and shows potential growth and success, lets not forget that it is a business too with very big investments.
And unfortunatelly we do not lve in the post Zephram Cochrane Era....we live in the an Era where we live our lives in the pursuit of material aquisitions and wealth...
The good thing about this all is that the RPG element is still there, the Away missions on land will attract the RPG pen and paper fans just as well. And in Space the game will be more like the Tactical Combat Simulator or SFB's, where each player commanded a ship.
I think the best of both worlds, and having been following the devellopment of STO I think they did a good job on the exploration side as well.
Lets not forget that Cryptic accomplished what previous Companies were not able to, the IP is very vast and Star Trek is a huge Universe with more than 40 years History behind it.
I say, it is a darn good beginning and about time we finally have an MMORPG for it! Lets give it the opportunity to grow! (SWG did not have Space when it launched Either all that was added later).
Cheers!
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
See, here is one big misconception that is being perpertrated in these threads. The idea that all the Star Trek fans are on one side of the debate and all the MMO players are on the other side of the debate is not correct!
Now, I've watched a lot of Star Trek down through the years, I'm not going to deny that. But I place myself into the MMO crowd for sure because thats something I'm much more interested in and something I've dedicated much more of my time to. I've played virtually every major (non-asian) MMO released in the past ten years and I was playing MUDs, multiplayer games over the internet and a hell of a lot of other types of video games for atleast another 10 to 15 years before that. And its BECAUSE of all that experience I've had with this industry (rather than in spite of it) that I'm dissapointed with the direction that Cryptic has taken with this game.
Cryptic had a chance to do something new, interesting and innovative with this game. Instead they choose to take the "safe" path and stick to their usual formula. In fact, they are sticking so closely to their standard formula that they are even reusing the engine from their super hero game. This industry is SCREAMING for something new and innovative that breaks away from the tradational mold but Cryptic is refusing to take a risk. Thats just plan sad to me. Its the same kind of thinking which gave us some of the other recent crappy MMOs like AoC and WAR. And as both a Star Trek fan AND a life long gamer I just think its time we do something different.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
See, here is one big misconception that is being perpertrated in these threads. The idea that all the Star Trek fans are on one side of the debate and all the MMO players are on the other side of the debate is not correct!
Now, I've watched a lot of Star Trek down through the years, I'm not going to deny that. But I place myself into the MMO crowd for sure because thats something I'm much more interested in and something I've dedicated much more of my time to. I've played virtually every major (non-asian) MMO released in the past ten years and I was playing MUDs, multiplayer games over the internet and a hell of a lot of other types of video games for atleast another 10 to 15 years before that. And its BECAUSE of all that experience I've had with this industry (rather than in spite of it) that I'm dissapointed with the direction that Cryptic has taken with this game.
Cryptic had a chance to do something new, interesting and innovative with this game. Instead they choose to take the "safe" path and stick to their usual formula. In fact, they are sticking so closely to their standard formula that they are even reusing the engine from their super hero game. This industry is SCREAMING for something new and innovative that breaks away from the tradational mold but Cryptic is refusing to take a risk. Thats just plan sad to me. Its the same kind of thinking which gave us some of the other recent crappy MMOs like AoC and WAR. And as both a Star Treak fan AND a life long gamer I just think its time we do something different.
Sorry friend but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. I doubt we are going to see any significant changes coming our way and I even question the carrot feeding system that SW:TOR may become. They are continually pushing the envelope in one area though and that's making it even easier for couch potatoes to one click through anything.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
Raltar and Sonic,
I share your sentiment as well. Ironically, I feel that the only Company that can take the risk to break the mold at this time, is Blizzard haha.
I laugh with Irony at times...btw, something different did release this year but everyone is blasting it...Darkfall released this year, and while it may not be different to some of us (those that played UO and before)...it still got rejected by this industry that is screaming for something new ....how about that?
Additionally, if the Industry is not giving us something new it is because of well established business principles, which dictate that as long as something is profitable there is no need for change, exploit it to the last drop...at least, this is what the financiers and producers behind many of these project think...
The fact that AOC and WAR did not do well under that formulae should be indications to others that the Community is not ready to accept more of the same...
But lest come back to the subject at hand.
I am not separating the ST fans in to one side, I am rather made a distinction towards the ST fans that also over the years engaged in to Pen and Paper RPG games as being on one side, albeit I may not have been too clear about it I reckon.
I myself am in between, and I think STO is looking good thus far, I am definitely looking forward to it even if it is not a Sandbox MMO it is not that something "different", it will undoubtedly give me the opportunity to get a small peace of the Star Trek universe nevertheless and at this time I find this very Satisfactory.
And I think, if you have been playing MMOG's for as long as you claim, you can also agree that today's Player base has grown to be rather unappreciative at times with many expectations.
And the bottom line is that STO may not be everything, but it is not nothing either, it is certainly Something!
So lets taste and see if we appreciate that something first before we go all gloom and doom about it, what say thee?
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Blizzard havn't done that since Diablo and Warcraft 1. They just don't work that way anymore.
No, there are other companies that work that way, like Bioware and Arenanet. Blizzard will take someone else game and polish it up. It have worked great so far so why stop now?
Agree on all counts. I fail to see the WOW clone that so many people are claiming this game to be. The complaints about instancing is hilarious when you consider the IP. The ships warped from one place to the next. How did people think that was to be accomplished without instancing? The crew always beams down to planets. Again, how is instancing going to ruin this? One poster here was caught railing against the official site even though he himself never visited it. He just automatically assumed that was how it was. So many complaints of non-innovation by the naysayers without a shred of reasoning behind it. The game isn't even in Beta yet some people already know they hate it. I'll make sure to check with them the next time I play the lottery since they are so adept at predicting the future
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
You have never played EvE Online I take it? Ships in that game warp all over the place and there is no such thing as an instance in that game. Even when you warp into your own private mission area during a PvE mission it is still part of regular space and you can warp out of it at any time, without a loading screen. You are still in the same game world with everyone else.
If the EvE developers can create a MASSIVE universe with thousands of systems and not use a single instance then it can clearly be done in STO as well. If the STO devs say they can't do it, I would suspect that has a lot to do with the fact they are attempting to reuse a game engine that was designed for a purely ground based super hero game.
Once again, I'm not a Star Trek fanboy, I'm just a gamer who has played many other MMOs and seen what this industry can do when they actually put their minds to it... and I also see how low the STO devs are setting the bar. Its just sad they claim they CAN'T deliver what many other games already have.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields