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Shard Instancing or 1 server for everyone....
zantax
Member Posts: 254
Well I know it has being kicked around alot but after playing Champions Online I once again realize that I personally hate instancing/shard systems for zones. Maybe I want to much but is it really to hard to build an Open world game that can have alot of people being on it. Meaning 5000-10000 per server and have no zoning and almost no instancing at least none that you could really tell?
10 years ago Asherons Call was released and offered an open world that you could go anywhere anytime. Static dungeons that were part of the land scape even if they were below the original "ground" level of the game. The system gave you a feeling of community while you played, I remember so many people on my old server of Solclaim that it is retarded. I remember legends from my server who were PvP gods, people that had completed epic quests, people who when you saw them you trembled in fear if they were PvP and so were you or people you would stop and salute just to say, "I respect you." The servers at the time I think could handle a total of about 3000 people each if I am not mistaken, and that was great. You got clusters of people that hung out in towns and you learned who to trade with and who not to.
Today tech has evolved into something that i think is a step backwards not to mention doesn't promote community. In Champions Online as you enter a zone, no free roam in this game really, you are thrust out of the playing experiance to a screen that asks you what shard you would like to enter. I understand why this is done but what I don't understand is why if 10 years ago they could handle 3000 people on one server at the same time why hasn't the tech involved to allow 5000-10000 people in one open world on one server? Currently you would be lucky to see the same person twice unless they are part of your friends list. There is no sense of community in the so called "Next Gen" MMO's.
So I guess the real question I want to ask is do you prefer where games are going today with the instancing/shard system on what they call 1 server, or would you prefer an Open full world to explore with no shard zones but only has 10000 people per server but where certain dungeons are instanced so that they are yours and yours alone? Also do you think that Community aspect of MMO's is being destroyed by these current systems?
Comments
I have to agree. Technically, games like Champions, and GW's tech too, are very impressive. For example, all people that play GW play in the same world...sort of. But everything is so fractured that you might never see the same person twice, as you say. When that happens, as it does when going out in CO, you do feel a sense of being in a fractured world. What they are doing is linking several physical computers, and when you "zone" to a different "shard" you might be being transfered somewhere else in the hardware. That's impressive technology, but I think many people would rather have straight servers like most games, so we can build a sense of community.
I know people like to have massive populations on those servers, but a lower population has a better chance of making a community. I know that sounds backwards, but people are more likely to stay on their own when confronted with large groups of people; that's basic psych/sociology.
Honestly, I don't know what the best system for a stable server and a stable community is. But I am sure people would appreciate more experimentation with the idea than what we are getting now.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I would also prefer a larger server population and no shards. This is one of EVE's strengths. I'm not sure why they decided to break the game world down into so many shards with CO, but hopefully that will change over time.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
Not to start an argument here but the Eve system is a bit differant, maybe you can clarify a few things about it. If you took your ship out of the first area your in and choose the next system on the map and a point in that system can you fly directly there without using a jump gate? Meaning will there be a point in which you will see a loading screen or an invisible barrier, I have never tried it but something to try out. I personally think that even has done each zone quite well but there is to much empty space, but it has created a pretty good community. So since Eve is a different monster lets just leave it out of the discussion.
No, EVE is relevant, despite being a space-based MMO with multiple systems/gates. EVE has one server. If you meet a person in one system, you can meet them again in any system. It's not possible to be in the same system and the other person be in a different version of the same system. If I'm chasing someone through gates, I don't have to guess which shard of the next system they're in. I simply follow them through the gate and find them.
Are you wanting to leave EVE out because it's not one gigantic, seamless world like VG or Ryzom? Or because it's space-based and not land-based?
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I think Champion Online ended up with the one server, multiple shard thing, because of it heading to the 360 as well.
If they made it PC only, the game would have turned out a lot different.
I don't think you could make a game support that many people without it being zoned off, like EQ1 or FFXI, with the graphics that people of today expect.
I like to see a game with one server with:
A mostly open world, like WoW, but I'll don't See that possible with that many players.
So zoning is the best way to go just make the zones large and feel open.
Channeled/Instanced Starting Areas, to keep those areas from being to crowded.
You also need multiple starting areas, so to spend people around.
Both instanced and non-instanced dungeons and raids.
Maybe have it where in the open world all the raids and dungeon are there for everything compete over but have a option to join a instanced one.
Example would like Wailing Caverns, in WoW.
Have it part of the open game world, but near the entance there would be something like meeting stone, but have it there to make a instanced version just for your group.
No, EVE is relevant, despite being a space-based MMO with multiple systems/gates. EVE has one server. If you meet a person in one system, you can meet them again in any system. It's not possible to be in the same system and the other person be in a different version of the same system. If I'm chasing someone through gates, I don't have to guess which shard of the next system they're in. I simply follow them through the gate and find them.
Are you wanting to leave EVE out because it's not one gigantic, seamless world like VG or Ryzom? Or because it's space-based and not land-based?
Your right it is one big open universe on 1 server but I asked a question and you didn't answer it, if I choose not to use space gates will I make it between systems? Or are the space gates and the jumps between them nothing but loading screens for a a different server to take over for that area? That is why I wanted to leave it out because it is a different monster, not because I don't respect what it is, there is more of a community in EVE then most MMO's out today. I am just saying for the sake of this discussion it needs to be deteremined first if you can fly between systems without using a jump gate even if it is going to take 20 days to fly it. To me any wait between "zones" is unacceptable and that is what these gates do is they are a wait between zones, a load time which tells me that maybe EVE is 1 general server that load balances out zones to different internal servers which is why when 1 zone goes down you don't notice untill you try to get into that zone.
So to make EVE relevent to this conversation simply answer the question, can you fly from 1 system to any other system without useing a jump gate without seeing a loading screen even if it takes you 10 days to fly there? If the answer is yes and there is proof of someone trying it then by all means I will agree EVE is the largest open space MMO out and none will compare with it ever.
No, EVE is relevant, despite being a space-based MMO with multiple systems/gates. EVE has one server. If you meet a person in one system, you can meet them again in any system. It's not possible to be in the same system and the other person be in a different version of the same system. If I'm chasing someone through gates, I don't have to guess which shard of the next system they're in. I simply follow them through the gate and find them.
Are you wanting to leave EVE out because it's not one gigantic, seamless world like VG or Ryzom? Or because it's space-based and not land-based?
Your right it is one big open universe on 1 server but I asked a question and you didn't answer it, if I choose not to use space gates will I make it between systems? Or are the space gates and the jumps between them nothing but loading screens for a a different server to take over for that area? That is why I wanted to leave it out because it is a different monster, not because I don't respect what it is, there is more of a community in EVE then most MMO's out today. I am just saying for the sake of this discussion it needs to be deteremined first if you can fly between systems without using a jump gate even if it is going to take 20 days to fly it. To me any wait between "zones" is unacceptable and that is what these gates do is they are a wait between zones, a load time which tells me that maybe EVE is 1 general server that load balances out zones to different internal servers which is why when 1 zone goes down you don't notice untill you try to get into that zone.
So to make EVE relevent to this conversation simply answer the question, can you fly from 1 system to any other system without useing a jump gate without seeing a loading screen even if it takes you 10 days to fly there? If the answer is yes and there is proof of someone trying it then by all means I will agree EVE is the largest open space MMO out and none will compare with it ever.
Oh I missed the question while trying to explain EVE's setup. Yes, in order to go from one system to another, you need to use a gate. I have no idea for sure if you're being transferred to another physical server. If so, CCP would need to have hundreds (if not thousands) of servers, especially after the last expansion.
Since you're not wanting to include EVE because of zones or load times, let's discuss other "modern" MMOs with large, open worlds. None have a truly large, open, non-instanced world. Not Ryzom. Not WoW. Certainly not AoC and WAR. VG and LotRO are close, but still have load screens in places. VG has load screens when you go from one continent to another. LotRO does when you enter/exit Moria and in a few other places. SWG's planets are large and open, but also boring and did nothing to foster community really. And to go from one planet to another, there were obviously load screens.
Your question is about whether shards destroy community. In CO's case, I agree it does. In most MMO's I've played, it doesn't. CO is the first MMO I've played that actually pops up a little window asking you which shard you want to join. If you're not teamed, good luck finding someone. Even if you are teamed, you need to scroll to find where your team-mates are.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I dont know how many people did the beta for CO, but I do know I saw some people in several shards at different times.
How do I know, some costumes ARE that good that you couldnt help but noticing them. Also my son did alot of PvP cage matches and saw some of the same players. Some times he fought with them, some against. He kept track of the good ones to kill.
I also didnt find it hard to team up with a friend who also played. He was on my Friends list, he would just find me and come to my shard. Chatting between shards was no problem either.
While not a perfect system, it wasnt as bad as I thought it was goin to be.
Dax.
personally i love the system as it means i don't have to worry about friends moving to other servers. Of course in the CO case i would like to see the zones maybe jacked up by about a hundred or so but it's no big deal. tbh i would love to see one big giant server with all players on and little (or no obvious) instancing but i doubt it will ever happen in a AAA title.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Glad we got the Eve thing sorted out, and your right I am not sure how many actual servers they have working together to generate all of those pockets in the universe but they do it well I will admit. Being the closest thing to a 1 server no shard and no instanced system is impressive with that many people online at one time. Also meeting the same person over and over again is very easy in Eve.
This sharding system though I don't like that idea I mean why can't developers put there preverbial backs into it and give us something truely unique or innovative? I know big companies don't want to take many chances but I really believe no shard system and limited instancing is the best type of setup. For example an extreame world consisting of many continents that are each at least as big as a world from SWG. Basic quest dungeons that are static that anyone can enter with or without a quest, either to kill the creatures inside for loot or just to explore or to do some quest. Then story arc quest dungeons but these are instanced where only the group or character on the quest can access there version of it. As for PvP have an arena setup but also have true Open world PvP with objectives and such.
I know I go back to it alot but all of these except the arena and the PvP objectives in the world are a part of a very old game Asheron's Call. I know the world is not as big as a SWG planet but for its time it was MASSIVE, and all the dungeons were static dungeons. The only Dungeons that were close to being instanced were truely epic quest dungeons like the Olthoi Queen Quest, or Lady Aerifall quest. The Dungeons were static but the openings could only be spawned through a complex series of mini quests, and to spawn the Aerifall dungeon you had to wait x amount of time since the last time it was spawned in order to respawn the dungeon. Anyway I digress...
My feeling is games today are just about quantity and not quality, devs just want to pump out content and not work on Tech to advance where we have being. Everyone is more interested in the "End Game" instead of the game as a whole from level 1 to cap if there is a cap. What ever happened to the Community aspect, developing your character, being the best at something, the shard system with 1 server seems to me makes this type of thing impossible or at least improvible. For example 1 crafter that you meet has mastered making an Epic Sword or upgrading weapons with a 5% failure rate where as the rest of the server the closest other Crafter has 15% failure rate. How are you to find this person in an open world with no Shard system you simply note where he has set up shop, in Wow Terms, he could set up shop in Undercity and basically be a static character there doing upgrades for people for a price. Not only is this now a gather spot but people will talk and make friends and OMG Socialize with one another...LOL.
You think these ideas are nutz?
I know some games like Vanguard or Ryzom with some work could probably put their entire sub-base on 1 server. But a game like Everquest or EQ2 with 200,000 people on 1 server? even instanced/sharded that would be insanely crowded. On some of the more populated WoW servers city hubs can get laggy and hard to manuever in. Adding 10s or 100s of thousands of more people just isn't practical. Even if the hardware gains of the last decade were enough, I still don't see more than 25k people per server.
Well it's possible to have a large community split across multiple physical servers. I don't believe that kills the social aspect of an MMO at all. Different regions are hosted on different servers, but the community is one giant community. Or at least one of several giant communities if the game's population is in the millions.
Loading screens can definitely be annoying and ruin the immersion factor (AoC is a perfect example), but they don't kill community. CO's shards DO kill that sense of community though. At least it did for me and quite a few others who were chatting about it last night in open beta. The world feels chopped up and you feel isolated from the overall community.
I would say VG is the closest modern MMO to what you're wanting. The only problem with VG is that the world is so huge and the community so relatively small that you feel completely isolated at times. There are times you won't see anyone else for half an hour or more.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN