Couple generalized truths regarding this topic: * When solo play in an MMORPG becomes the norm, that game design is broken. * Solo play is a symptom, not the disease. * Nobody truly WANTS to be alone. Everybody wants to group. Most of the time. Solo players are not happy players. * Mechanically, solo play can never achieve the heights of group play. This is a simple matter of potential.
We need: 1. Games that gives us good group play. 2. Games that allow us to filter and even seperate players types and ages from eachother with certainty. 3. Games that enforce accountability.
I would rather say just the oppossite:
* When group play in an MMORPG becomes the only way to play, that game design is broken.
* Not everybody truly CAN or WANT to always group up. Solo play is an option as good as group play.
* It should be much harder for a solo player to achieve the heights of group play. But not totally imposible.
We need:
1. Games that gives us good group AND solo play.
2. Games that do NOT make use of players real-life data like player age or type.
3. Games that give freedom and do not enforce anything.
That may be opposite to something but it sure isn't opposite to anything I said. If you wanna debate something, you gotta make sure you understand what you're looking to counter first.
* Agreed.
* Agreed. (Not quite but close enough )
* This isn't a matter of design choice. It's impossible for solo play to contain the same potential as group play for the simple fact that a group consists of more than one part. The more parts you put into the equation, the higher the potential. 1+1=2.
Unfortunately, in praxis 1+1 has a tendency to become 0 and that is what most solo players react to, not cuz of some fundemental wish to play alone. You can't blame the potential, but you CAN blame the design.
Unfortunately, in praxis 1+1 has a tendency to become 0 and that is what most solo players react to, not cuz of some fundemental wish to play alone. You can't blame the potential, but you CAN blame the design.
I've yet to see a single soloer reacting to that. What soloers react to is the thought, put forward by a lot of groupers, that there ought to be content and look which cannot, under any circumstances, *EVER* be soloed regardless of level, that there ought to be things that groupers get, simply because they group, that soloers can never have. That's the objection I see.
In fact, I have yet to see a single soloer post that they expect to be able to solo the same content at the same level as a team can. I've just never seen it happen. Maybe you can point that out to me.
I used to group a lot in my earlier MMO days but now I almost always solo everything that I can and either avoid the group stuff all together or jump in when I see someone asking for a group for that quest.
The reason is other players slow things down. They take forever to get ready for the quest, then they have to go to their in game bank first, or turn something in "real quick". Then there's the AFK to get a drink, smoke a cigarette, get some food. Or in the middle of the quest the hold on a minute someone at the door, phone call etc. that everyone now has to sit and wait for.
Then you get the players that can just not understand things. So you have to explain every step in the process, and there's still confusion. Plus the players that get the group wiped. Etc. etc. etc. etc.
It is just faster + easier to level and get where I need to be on my own. I don't want to wait around forever to get other players together and ready to go. I don't want to finally get the group rolling into the quest and have key classes say "Sorry got to go, sorry didn't mean to ruin the group" and then get stuck starting the searching for x class posts for 20+ minutes to get the group rolling again.
If other players approached it with a ready to go let's do this, committed to the quest once it's started and learn to be good enough at the game to not cause group issues: then I would start grouping more. But right now I solo all the way up in MMOs and then go back and help friends, group members get through the low level quests which is when I finally get to see the group content for the first time. I'm a power leveler and I'm goal oriented. So I take the fastest route to the top or to the goal which is always solo.
I used to group a lot in my earlier MMO days but now I almost always solo everything that I can and either avoid the group stuff all together or jump in when I see someone asking for a group for that quest.
The reason is other players slow things down. They take forever to get ready for the quest, then they have to go to their in game bank first, or turn something in "real quick". Then there's the AFK to get a drink, smoke a cigarette, get some food. Or in the middle of the quest the hold on a minute someone at the door, phone call etc. that everyone now has to sit and wait for.
Then you get the players that can just not understand things. So you have to explain every step in the process, and there's still confusion. Plus the players that get the group wiped. Etc. etc. etc. etc.
It is just faster + easier to level and get where I need to be on my own. I don't want to wait around forever to get other players together and ready to go. I don't want to finally get the group rolling into the quest and have key classes say "Sorry got to go, sorry didn't mean to ruin the group" and then get stuck starting the searching for x class posts for 20+ minutes to get the group rolling again.
If other players approached it with a ready to go let's do this, committed to the quest once it's started and learn to be good enough at the game to not cause group issues: then I would start grouping more. But right now I solo all the way up in MMOs and then go back and help friends, group members get through the low level quests which is when I finally get to see the group content for the first time. I'm a power leveler and I'm goal oriented. So I take the fastest route to the top or to the goal which is always solo.
All excellent points.
If I could change other gamers' behavior in just one way, it would be this: Do not seek a group until you are ready to group. No "I just need to sell", no "I just need to make some space", etc. When you accept a group invite, be ready to go now. If you're not ready, fine, don't accept. Doing otherwise is selfish IMO.
The problem is ‘providing’ for group play is not the same as giving it. That’s like saying we have a PvP arena, so we have full PvP and that’s the best set up we can have. While in truth so much more can be done.
I accept that the ‘soloing MMO’ as I think of them, is the most profitable, no getting away from that. But I do think it is based on a false demographic assumption. What happened to PC games reflects what has happened in marketing and advertising over the last twenty years. There was a realisation that teenagers spent more money on their interests than a adult with the same interests. So everything became designed for them. That’s why the console solo format was applied to online MMO’s. It worked there, we want that market, lets make MMO’s to that model.
But that does not mean we must stick like glue to that model. There has been some attempts to move away from that model, not just towards grouping. Vanguard tried to rebalance the template but it was way too old MMO, just porting in old ideas and thinking that would be enough. AoC tried a new change to PvP and guilds with the sieges. We have games on the horizon that hopefully will do better, yes they might not make as much money, but do you think that WoW can be matched? That is what happens if you stick with the best revenue model, maybe you can leech some players of WoW, maybe not, surely the industry can see by now that is not giving new MMO’s the large profits they desire.
When it comes to group rewards an article on here reminded me that sometimes MMO’s penalise your xp for groups. I do not know how common that is, but it does not seem rare, in which case all this talk of unfairness to soloing goes out the window.
Also I will put one vote in for soloing, well of a sort. When a MMO puts in a new zone that is in a wilderness that nobody but a few tribesmen live in, it is absurd that you bump into hordes of fellow players on day one. That’s why I never play that zone for a couple of weeks if I can get away with it. Never mind grouping, its just silly to see so many people there interacting in any way. Switch of grouping, limit player access, do something to stop the new zone being a tourist trap!
Papadam, I did a thread on what ‘hardcore’ is supposed to mean, yes it is totally over used and misinterpreted. Soloers are not casual by default, I think that the majority are, but I know some very dedicated soloers, I just think they must lead a lonely MMO life.
As to what Cujo said, public quests and a buddy/mentor system which already exsist in some MMO’s would allow that sort of grouping. You want to group? Open your UI and look for a group leader with an open group, you don’t ask you just join. With the buddy system you level down/up to the level of the player you join, ala CoX. That already exists, now combine that together, you join a group and become the level of the group average. Job done!
Also how about if grouping gave people better grouping items, like armour that was only good for instances where you group? That would give groupers a big reward while not having all the soloers whine (yes you lot whine too ) about the rewards of grouping.
If I could change other gamers' behavior in just one way, it would be this: Do not seek a group until you are ready to group. No "I just need to sell", no "I just need to make some space", etc. When you accept a group invite, be ready to go now. If you're not ready, fine, don't accept. Doing otherwise is selfish IMO.
Not going to happen. We can't really change human nature.
I really like this post by one of the LotrO devs, Vastin: (quoted in part to respond)
Now, believe it or not, grouping is incredibly inconvenient. More fun, IMHO, but definitely inconvenient. Even forming a small group represents a considerable outlay of additional time and risk for its members. I've done stopwatch trials myself, and the cost/reward ratio compared with just running out and soloing content is quite bad unless you can form a group fairly quickly and run with it for a considerable amount of time once it is formed. Many players realize this, conciously or not, and don't like to form groups if they can't commit a lot of time to them."
I agree, but it goes farther than that. Unless you're part of a long-term closed group (at which point you have no time wasted forming a group), you run the risk with every PUG you play with of getting yoked to a bunch of idiots. Let's be honest, the only reason people are forming PUGs is to use others to get XP and the only reason you want to be in a PUG is the same. You want something that you cannot get easily on your own, therefore you're going to grab a couple of extra bodies and use them for a while so you can get what you want. You take the chance of getting with people who don't know how to play as a team, don't know how to play their class, just want to screw around, just want to loaf off and let everyone else do the work, etc. You have to hope that half the team doesn't give up and leave before you get to your goal, or that they don't loot-steal and tell you what to go do with yourself.
I see a lot of people talking about "bad reputations" but in most PUGs, you're playing with people you've never seen before and will almost certainly never see again, how much of a reputation can you make, good or bad under those conditions? I find it hard to believe that anyone is going to be adversely affected by someone whining once or twice about them on an OOC channel, nobody pays any attention to what goes on there anyhow.
I solo more often than I group for a few reasons.. One I'm not a very good gamer, I'm normally not up to snuff on my 'role' in the group, two I don't do well with bitchy, bossy people that think they are the GOD of whatever MMO they are playing and just have to 'lead' the party (Believe me there are A TON of these kind of players in EVERY MMO I've ever played), and three I've been in parties where everyone's goals aren't considered or realized.
Comments
Im replying to the OPs title, I'm not reading a hundred posts.
Imo the ability to solo isn;t ruining MMOs its the balance between grouping and soloing that is ruining it.
You shouldn't be penalized for grouping in a MMO and in todays games that;s whats happening.
This mechanic is turning a genre that was once more about socializing into a anti social power levelers game and it suxs.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
I would rather say just the oppossite:
* When group play in an MMORPG becomes the only way to play, that game design is broken.
* Not everybody truly CAN or WANT to always group up. Solo play is an option as good as group play.
* It should be much harder for a solo player to achieve the heights of group play. But not totally imposible.
We need:
1. Games that gives us good group AND solo play.
2. Games that do NOT make use of players real-life data like player age or type.
3. Games that give freedom and do not enforce anything.
That may be opposite to something but it sure isn't opposite to anything I said. If you wanna debate something, you gotta make sure you understand what you're looking to counter first.
* Agreed.
* Agreed. (Not quite but close enough
)
* This isn't a matter of design choice. It's impossible for solo play to contain the same potential as group play for the simple fact that a group consists of more than one part. The more parts you put into the equation, the higher the potential. 1+1=2.
Unfortunately, in praxis 1+1 has a tendency to become 0 and that is what most solo players react to, not cuz of some fundemental wish to play alone. You can't blame the potential, but you CAN blame the design.
I've yet to see a single soloer reacting to that. What soloers react to is the thought, put forward by a lot of groupers, that there ought to be content and look which cannot, under any circumstances, *EVER* be soloed regardless of level, that there ought to be things that groupers get, simply because they group, that soloers can never have. That's the objection I see.
In fact, I have yet to see a single soloer post that they expect to be able to solo the same content at the same level as a team can. I've just never seen it happen. Maybe you can point that out to me.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I blame other players for it really.
I used to group a lot in my earlier MMO days but now I almost always solo everything that I can and either avoid the group stuff all together or jump in when I see someone asking for a group for that quest.
The reason is other players slow things down. They take forever to get ready for the quest, then they have to go to their in game bank first, or turn something in "real quick". Then there's the AFK to get a drink, smoke a cigarette, get some food. Or in the middle of the quest the hold on a minute someone at the door, phone call etc. that everyone now has to sit and wait for.
Then you get the players that can just not understand things. So you have to explain every step in the process, and there's still confusion. Plus the players that get the group wiped. Etc. etc. etc. etc.
It is just faster + easier to level and get where I need to be on my own. I don't want to wait around forever to get other players together and ready to go. I don't want to finally get the group rolling into the quest and have key classes say "Sorry got to go, sorry didn't mean to ruin the group" and then get stuck starting the searching for x class posts for 20+ minutes to get the group rolling again.
If other players approached it with a ready to go let's do this, committed to the quest once it's started and learn to be good enough at the game to not cause group issues: then I would start grouping more. But right now I solo all the way up in MMOs and then go back and help friends, group members get through the low level quests which is when I finally get to see the group content for the first time. I'm a power leveler and I'm goal oriented. So I take the fastest route to the top or to the goal which is always solo.
All excellent points.
If I could change other gamers' behavior in just one way, it would be this: Do not seek a group until you are ready to group. No "I just need to sell", no "I just need to make some space", etc. When you accept a group invite, be ready to go now. If you're not ready, fine, don't accept. Doing otherwise is selfish IMO.
The problem is ‘providing’ for group play is not the same as giving it. That’s like saying we have a PvP arena, so we have full PvP and that’s the best set up we can have. While in truth so much more can be done.
I accept that the ‘soloing MMO’ as I think of them, is the most profitable, no getting away from that. But I do think it is based on a false demographic assumption. What happened to PC games reflects what has happened in marketing and advertising over the last twenty years. There was a realisation that teenagers spent more money on their interests than a adult with the same interests. So everything became designed for them. That’s why the console solo format was applied to online MMO’s. It worked there, we want that market, lets make MMO’s to that model.
But that does not mean we must stick like glue to that model. There has been some attempts to move away from that model, not just towards grouping. Vanguard tried to rebalance the template but it was way too old MMO, just porting in old ideas and thinking that would be enough. AoC tried a new change to PvP and guilds with the sieges. We have games on the horizon that hopefully will do better, yes they might not make as much money, but do you think that WoW can be matched? That is what happens if you stick with the best revenue model, maybe you can leech some players of WoW, maybe not, surely the industry can see by now that is not giving new MMO’s the large profits they desire.
When it comes to group rewards an article on here reminded me that sometimes MMO’s penalise your xp for groups. I do not know how common that is, but it does not seem rare, in which case all this talk of unfairness to soloing goes out the window.
Also I will put one vote in for soloing, well of a sort. When a MMO puts in a new zone that is in a wilderness that nobody but a few tribesmen live in, it is absurd that you bump into hordes of fellow players on day one. That’s why I never play that zone for a couple of weeks if I can get away with it. Never mind grouping, its just silly to see so many people there interacting in any way. Switch of grouping, limit player access, do something to stop the new zone being a tourist trap!
Papadam, I did a thread on what ‘hardcore’ is supposed to mean, yes it is totally over used and misinterpreted. Soloers are not casual by default, I think that the majority are, but I know some very dedicated soloers, I just think they must lead a lonely MMO life.
As to what Cujo said, public quests and a buddy/mentor system which already exsist in some MMO’s would allow that sort of grouping. You want to group? Open your UI and look for a group leader with an open group, you don’t ask you just join. With the buddy system you level down/up to the level of the player you join, ala CoX. That already exists, now combine that together, you join a group and become the level of the group average. Job done!
Also how about if grouping gave people better grouping items, like armour that was only good for instances where you group? That would give groupers a big reward while not having all the soloers whine (yes you lot whine too
) about the rewards of grouping.
If I could change other gamers' behavior in just one way, it would be this: Do not seek a group until you are ready to group. No "I just need to sell", no "I just need to make some space", etc. When you accept a group invite, be ready to go now. If you're not ready, fine, don't accept. Doing otherwise is selfish IMO.
Not going to happen. We can't really change human nature.
ROFLMAO!!!! Good one!!!
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
I agree, but it goes farther than that. Unless you're part of a long-term closed group (at which point you have no time wasted forming a group), you run the risk with every PUG you play with of getting yoked to a bunch of idiots. Let's be honest, the only reason people are forming PUGs is to use others to get XP and the only reason you want to be in a PUG is the same. You want something that you cannot get easily on your own, therefore you're going to grab a couple of extra bodies and use them for a while so you can get what you want. You take the chance of getting with people who don't know how to play as a team, don't know how to play their class, just want to screw around, just want to loaf off and let everyone else do the work, etc. You have to hope that half the team doesn't give up and leave before you get to your goal, or that they don't loot-steal and tell you what to go do with yourself.
I see a lot of people talking about "bad reputations" but in most PUGs, you're playing with people you've never seen before and will almost certainly never see again, how much of a reputation can you make, good or bad under those conditions? I find it hard to believe that anyone is going to be adversely affected by someone whining once or twice about them on an OOC channel, nobody pays any attention to what goes on there anyhow.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I solo more often than I group for a few reasons.. One I'm not a very good gamer, I'm normally not up to snuff on my 'role' in the group, two I don't do well with bitchy, bossy people that think they are the GOD of whatever MMO they are playing and just have to 'lead' the party (Believe me there are A TON of these kind of players in EVERY MMO I've ever played), and three I've been in parties where everyone's goals aren't considered or realized.