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First dates in Sweden: sabotaged by social welfare
gnomexxx
Member Posts: 2,920
It's pretty bad when even the people who claim to have a "cherished social welfare system" come to recognize that it strips away an individuals identity. Since when should the government be manipulating people's attitudes and behaviors? How this doesn't scare people is beyond me. And how they can't recognize the horror in this is even further outside my understanding. What is going to be the explanation for a peoples behavior when a person in the future asks why they were behaving that way? Is the answer going to be because that is the way the government taught them to behave? Because the people were so dependent on what the government was saying that they were swayed liked grass in the wind? Because they had no minds of their own per their willingness to forgo their individuality to the state?
And I am by NO MEANS picking on Sweden here. I see this going on in many other countries around the world too, including America! This is a movement that, to me, shows how pathetic and dependent a group of people can become. And how easily the human spirit can be taken away if not protected.
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First dates in Sweden: sabotaged by social welfare
While Sweden's social welfare system is cherished by many, The Local's Scarlet St. Clair learns the hard way about the system's unintended consequences for single women.
There’s nothing quite like the rush of sharing that first few hours together: awkwardly asking questions, selecting words ever-so-carefully to impress one other, avoiding foods with high risk of becoming lodged between teeth (broccoli is a definite no).
And all the while secretly thinking about what’s beneath each others’ clothing.
First dates are always a challenge, however, even under ideal conditions.
But as I’ve learned during my brief time in Stockholm, dating in a foreign country requires one to bring their game to a whole different level - especially when that country is Sweden.
My first Swedish date took place about a month after I’d moved to the nation’s capital. And about two minutes into it, I realized whatever dating ‘expertise’ I thought I had gained during my single years, was useless.
The evening felt like a cavalcade of one hopeless moment after another. The dinner went like this: I asked a question. He answered. I asked another. He answered again. Not once did a question come my way. Was I that boring, or was he just that rude?
When the bill came, I offered to help pay as I always do; a well-rehearsed token gesture of kindness, which I expected to be duly rebuffed.
Instead, my Swedish companion “allowed” me to pay for half the meal. And then left me to cover our after-dinner coffee—another sure sign in my book that things were heading in the wrong direction.
Three hours later, my stomach full of non-free food and my mind reeling from the piss-poor conversation, my first Swedish date was finally over.
I returned home dejected; tucked myself into bed and curled up in the foetal position to watch reruns of classic movies.
How had things gone so horribly wrong?
Sharing this tragic tale with Swedish girlfriends over cocktails did little to life my spirits.
They all stared at me blankly, failing to understand my concerns.
“He let me pay!” I protested repeatedly.
No reaction.
“He hardly asked me any questions!”
More blank stares. Obviously, Swedish girl talk wasn’t going to help.
Frustrated, I decided to call an expert: Swedish author and dating guru Marie Hagberg.
I needed to know: was my foreign blood the cause of my first date failure, or do all Swedish women boldly face the torment of horrible first dates every time they embark on such missions?
“Swedish guys just don’t get it,” she says.
Whew! Ok, it’s not just me.
“You expect a guy to make the first move, but in Sweden he won’t unless he’s really drunk,” Hagberg said.
Her observation was certainly confirmed by my experience, as my would-be Swedish beau had undoubtedly downed a healthy dose of liquid courage before we struck up our conversation.
“Men here are very timid,” Hagberg continues.
“I am constantly trying to educate our male population about things like this, but I haven’t succeeded. Swedish guys don’t do anything and don’t make progress. At the same time they don’t want a girl to do anything either, so nothing happens. It’s very frustrating.”
Hagberg’s insights are anything but reassuring for my prospects for finding love in Sweden. Apparently I shouldn’t make the move, yet he won’t either.
But why? Are they shy?
According to Hagberg, there is truth to the old stereotype about Swedes not being the most outgoing types.
“Swedes are known for being kind of dull and boring,” she says.
No kidding.
“We are more closed than Americans or Brits,” she continues.
No argument there.
“Though we are still nice!” she adds.
Somehow, that promise of “niceness” feels empty at this particular juncture. After all, my first date companion simply talked about himself for three hours!
According to Hagberg, this self-centred pathology is common for Swedish men. In fact, their behavioural incompetence so deep and widespread that she has resorted to offering lessons about how to behave on a date.
“The most common thing I tell guys is to ask questions,” she explains.
That’s a good place to start.
“They get so excited if she is asking questions, they then forget to be polite and ask questions back.”
I don’t want to be critical of Hagberg’s teaching methods, but it seems to me her message isn’t getting through.
Then there’s that whole not-picking-up-the-check-thing.
“People in Sweden are so confused about this,” says Hagberg.
You don’t say.
“Most girls want a guy to pay, and most guys also think they should pay. But a lot are still confused, wondering whether to pay or split. I think the guys should pay the first time; it doesn’t mean he should pay every time, but just the first time. It has to do with manners and style.”
But why don’t they pay?
“Men think women earn almost as much as they do, so why should they pay? I think that’s bullshit,” she said.
Amen to that sister.
With Hagberg’s help, I slowly start to realize that a Swedish man on a first date is like a lost puppy trying to find his way. He knows not how to approach a lady, carry a conversation, or to offer to pay.
Poor things. I almost feel sorry for them. And I couldn’t help but wonder what could be responsible for stunting the dating intelligence of Swedish men so severely.
Hagberg’s answer catches me off guard.
“It has to do with our social welfare system,” she exclaims.
Come again?
“Here nobody is supposed to take care of their own life or future and people consider the government responsible for everything. That has coloured the world of dating, and gone overboard.”
So my dating failure can ultimately be attributed to an unforeseen side-effect of some grand experiment in social engineering?
Not exactly the culprit I was expecting, but then again, growing up in a capitalist system across the Atlantic, I had always been told that socialism is the root of all evil.
And now…it’s also the reason I’m still single in Sweden.
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Comments
lol, sounds like a very bitter woman ranting :P
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
So the American woman (sounds like) is upset because SHE offered to pay for half of what she actually ate, and the guy said "Okay"?
She was only saying it as part of some archaic ritual, not really meaning the sincerity of her offer and lamented on not getting the free food?
No wonder there's so many "Mail Order Brides" catering to American men nowadays, lol. We ought to see if we can stimulus money to arrange more trips for American women to meet some Swedish guys.
"TO MICHAEL!"
She sounds like a rude, obnoxious bitch. Oh, he was shy.. The horror!
Hence, it's no wonder why the guy didn't express much interest in her.
Sorry gnome but this has nothing to do with social welfare states and more to do with social norms in different countries. When I lived in Europe, one of the most common complaints I heard about Americans is their unwillingness or inability to adapt to the customs of the foreign country they either visited or lived in. This woman obviously had no idea what the dating practices of Sweden were and got slammed by culture shock. Rather than going home curling up in fetal position it should have been a clue set aside her American notions of dating and to adjust her game to the local playing field. Things are different in foreign counties....that's why they are call FOREIGN counties. If one is unable or unwilling to adjust to the customs and traditions of another country, do oneself and other countries a big favor and stay close to home....
So wait...does this mean that Sweden is full of gorgeous available women with the men being too timid to know how to pick them up?
Perhaps it's time to set some news goals.
Edit: I don't want to detract from the epic direction this thread is headed!
(which is to the airport for those wondering)
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Meet ya at the Airport Zindaihas....
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
So the American woman (sounds like) is upset because SHE offered to pay for half of what she actually ate, and the guy said "Okay"?
She was only saying it as part of some archaic ritual, not really meaning the sincerity of her offer and lamented on not getting the free food?
No wonder there's so many "Mail Order Brides" catering to American men nowadays, lol. We ought to see if we can stimulus money to arrange more trips for American women to meet some Swedish guys.
I really like the old fashioned traditions of courting. Maybe it was just the way I was raised, but I expect to pick up the bill for my date, open the car door for her, and all the other traditional things. I don't see it as an inequality so much as I'm just supposed to be the one that takes the lead. And I have never had a single girl complain. I've just always felt that my part in the relationship is to be the time honored "male" figure. You can call it weird or archaic, but I think most women really respect it.
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I'm not challenging the fact that things are different in Europe, what I'm asking is how did the customs change.
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Meet ya at the Airport Zindaihas....
Book me a seat.
Not that I have had too much trouble here in America. But have you seen some of the Swedish women? Wooooweee!
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So the American woman (sounds like) is upset because SHE offered to pay for half of what she actually ate, and the guy said "Okay"?
She was only saying it as part of some archaic ritual, not really meaning the sincerity of her offer and lamented on not getting the free food?
No wonder there's so many "Mail Order Brides" catering to American men nowadays, lol. We ought to see if we can stimulus money to arrange more trips for American women to meet some Swedish guys.
I really like the old fashioned traditions of courting. Maybe it was just the way I was raised, but I expect to pick up the bill for my date, open the car door for her, and all the other traditional things. I don't see it as an inequality so much as I'm just supposed to be the one that takes the lead. And I have never had a single girl complain. I've just always felt that my part in the relationship is to be the time honored "male" figure. You can call it weird or archaic, but I think most women really respect it.
They respect you for it not because you follow something "archaic" but because you do what you believe is right:)
The writer of the article though I believe exaggerates a bit. First of all the part that she says says that she asks a question and he doesn't ask back, gives me the impression that she was asking personal questions so to speak. From what I have seen at least Swedish and Germans really keep to themselves in such questions on the first date and usually prefer mostly chatting to open up. That's just personal experience though.
Now as far as her complain about the bill I think that's where the socialist part kicks in. She feels entitled that the other guy should pay for her share. Plus she is hypocritical about it by "offering to pay". Entitlement + hypocrisy. I like to pay also the bill for my date but that's because I consider it as a gift to her for the pleasure of her company, if I see that she considers it a given though I might as well look for a less spoiled one:P
It's not really imo "socialism" that affects them, the people there are just more reserved and tight in their dealings when it comes on romantic issues between 25-30. Southern Europe for example the way they act changes radically.
Dibs also for a plane there....Oh wait it's summer so they come here instead, so dibs for a winter seat:P
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
This is just so typical. They do things differently in another country so that obviously means the american way is right and this case the swedish way is wrong.
she offered him to pay out of kindness and expected it to be turned down, and even gets upset when he accepts the offer? What kind of fake kindness is that?
Why should men be expected to pay for everything? This isn't the mid 1900's where it was primarily men who worked and took care of the bills. This is just no longer the case, women go to school and get jobs just like men do. there is no reason why men should continue to have to be expected to pay for everything. Women keep demanding equal rights (and rightly so i might add) but then you really need to accept to be treated as an equal.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's because of social welfare. There are a lot of cultures where people are shy. Also, did she ever consider that he might be shy about his english? That's something thats very common and something I suffer from as well.
That's basically why I called her a rude, obnoxious bitch.. lol. Which is fine, in all honesty.. if she's the type that likes aggressive dating, relationships with no inhibitions. I'm sure she meets plenty of guys just like her, and they probably have a loud, rude, good-time.
The part that gets me though, and the reason why I called her these things.. because she decided to write an article condemning the guy for his shyness or timid approach, yet she hardly even knows him. My straight-away guess is that this guy was probably way intelligent, more so than she ever would have noticed or gave him credit for. He probably saw right through her and decided not to feign interest in her whatsoever.
Her loss... She can go back to America if she's so upset.
Meet ya at the Airport Zindaihas....
Book me a seat.
Not that I have had too much trouble here in America. But have you seen some of the Swedish women? Wooooweee!
On it
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
I feel its archaic from the standpoint that if a good looking woman asked a guy out on a date in the older "archaic" world (+30 years ago which is where a lot of this comes from) she'd be considered "loose" or some kind of hussy. That was simply bad form.
So a lot of guys with the "I'm the guy, I pay for everything" attitude think if a woman asks them out, she must want to screw them. That just means she's attracted to him for the most part and wants to get to know him.
Some of those guys would even think less of her because they were raised that a man is always the one to initiate everything. From the invitation, to where they are going, to who gives the dinner order, to when the date is finished. There are still people who think that way but most don't nowadays. That's why I call it archaic. I don't think I've ever heard of a woman ever ordering dinner for a guy, even though mother's did it for years.
In today's world, most American women complain they don't make as much as men and they don't get treated on equal terms. A lot want to be equal in everything, but still want to be treated in the subservient way of having a male do everything. This woman was a prime example of the early in this article.
This stems from how a lot of fathers raise a lot of their daughters (Daddy's little princess) to how they raise their sons (Go get em, Champ). If their son is sleeping around, fathers are beaming proud and just give a few hints about what type of condoms to wear. When their daughters sleep around, she's a slut and they have a fit because its immoral or something. That subconciously seeps into adulthood and why we still have that "car door, dinner, movie" stuff where the guy is expected to pay everything.
I don't like it when women complain they want it both ways.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Sounds like a date went wrong, and she's blaming "society." Sounds like she is making excuses. Some things are just not meant to be. He's not the right guy for her. End of story.
I don't think there's anything wrong with her expectations, yet I don't think there was anything wrong with his behavior. He is the right guy for a different woman, and she is the right woman for a different man. Where she is wrong is blaming a country and its social system for her bad luck.
fishermage.blogspot.com
The person responding to her questions was Swedish.
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I was raised by a father with the attitude of "Go get 'em. But not in the sense of go out and get laid. When my father had the talk about the "birds and the bee's" with me, there was another part of that talk that he added in and put more importance on. And that was how to respect a woman. He was very adamant about letting me know that yeah, guys can be aggressive in going after what they want, but they do not ever let that aggressiveness impose on others. That was when a very strong line was crossed.
Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, the physically dominant sex is the male. I have noticed that a lot of the respectful actions of a male are ways of a man telling a girl, look I'm not in this just for the sex. I am here to show my interest in you and I'm doing it in a way where I'm showing I will be there for you. I think women want a man to be there for them, one that is strong and protective. Opening the door for them, paying for their dinner, those are ways of expressing that.
And I am pretty sure that's true because even my friends who are girls get that same treatment from me. It's not because I'm trying to make them feel subordinate, but I'm letting them know that I will be here to protect them when they need me.
It seems that a lot of traditions have taken on some kind of dirtiness to them. Like they've been tarnished. And I'm not sure I like all of it.
I admit, there are a lot of guys who go out with women in the attempts of nothing more than sex. And if things work out with them great, if not then at least they got laid. I personally think that is a sick attitude. And I speak up about that when I'm around other guys. But honestly, I've not met too many old fashioned guys, such as myself, who have that kind of attitude. And, like I said before, I have not gotten any complaints from any of the girls I've been out with. But I have gotten plenty of compliments from them. And never been turned down for a second date. Also, I have heard a lot of girls complain about guys they've gone out with who did not show them the traditional respect.
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If it were just her explaining the story I might agree with you. But when she is quoting someone from Sweden coming up with these ideas, then it lends a little more to her story.
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I was raised by a father with the attitude of "Go get 'em. But not in the sense of go out and get laid. When my father had the talk about the "birds and the bee's" with me, there was another part of that talk that he added in and put more importance on. And that was how to respect a woman. He was very adamant about letting me know that yeah, guys can be aggressive in going after what they want, but they do not ever let that aggressiveness impose on others. That was when a very strong line was crossed.
Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, the physically dominant sex is the male. I have noticed that a lot of the respectful actions of a male are ways of a man telling a girl, look I'm not in this just for the sex. I am here to show my interest in you and I'm doing it in a way where I'm showing I will be there for you. I think women want a man to be there for them, one that is strong and protective. Opening the door for them, paying for their dinner, those are ways of expressing that.
And I am pretty sure that's true because even my friends who are girls get that same treatment from me. It's not because I'm trying to make them feel subordinate, but I'm letting them know that I will be here to protect them when they need me.
It seems that a lot of traditions have taken on some kind of dirtiness to them. Like they've been tarnished. And I'm not sure I like all of it.
I admit, there are a lot of guys who go out with women in the attempts of nothing more than sex. And if things work out with them great, if not then at least they got laid. I personally think that is a sick attitude. And I speak up about that when I'm around other guys. But honestly, I've not met too many old fashioned guys, such as myself, who have that kind of attitude. And, like I said before, I have not gotten any complaints from any of the girls I've been out with. But I have gotten plenty of compliments from them. And never been turned down for a second date. Also, I have heard a lot of girls complain about guys they've gone out with who did not show them the traditional respect.
I can ditto almost this whole thing, especially when it came to "the talk." My dad was VERY sure I understood that women were to be respected, loved, and taken care of -- and my mom was no slouch -- double degrees in English and biology, teacher, office manager -- both were community leaders. They took care of each other, and watched each other's backs, true blue to the end.
I have always tended to be the dominant one in relationships, although I feel a strong man is happier with a strong woman. However, I do believe, actually I know, there are women who want to be aggressive, dominant, and there are plenty of sub males for them.
God made us all different. We should celebrate that difference, but always treat each other with love and respect while still being true to ourselves. That way lies happiness.
My parents were happily married (and I do mean happily, my daddy used to tease and play with my mom even while he was dying of cancer, and my mom loved my dad so much we believe she literally died within two years of his death because she could not live without him). Best friends and lovers forever, Amen.
I pray every day my wife and I can live up to their great example. So far so good -- been together over twenty-five years.
Again I don't know if it's "society," since society is US.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Seems like the story had more to do with the changing attitude towards the traditional roles of men and women when dating more than a story about social welfare crippling dating.
There is a long line of radical women that have been fighting for equality over the past centuries, so it should come as no surprise that a few men here and there will grant a woman equal treatment when the opportunity arises.
Is this article authored by anybody, because there is no name that I can see...?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
I can see how the "State" might have influenced the man. A "Why should I provide for somebody when the state provides for me?" influencing scenario if you will.
However with that article the woman also reveals she wants to impose her will over someone.
Both have the possibility of being wrong in this case but I think it was the woman's expectations that undid her.
That being said I am one to practice traditional "gentlemanship" as it were.
(Gnomexxx you describe the reasons very well)
I like to think that practice is done of my own free will and a woman freely accepting such too. I'll repeat. The "key" here is both freely accepting such.
Edit: I'll also add communication break down was at play here.
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
Most of the guys I've met throughout my lifetime were given the "wink and a nod" when it came to sex, whatever decade it was/is. Most were never told that its shameful for a male to have sex. If anything, that's was something to be proud of.
If you were a 16 year old boy and you somehow slept with a girl that was older than you, that was a sure sign by people that you would someday be a man who would make his way in life. Bonus points if she was a "woman". There was nothing about that conquest that was to be ashamed of. In fact, Dad would tell his buddies about that and they'd all get a chuckle too. If you were a virgin as a senior, you were just a pathetic kid who was too scared to tell his buddies.
Now if it was a girl in the same way, Mom or Dad simply wasn't going to tolerate that behavior. No daughter of theirs was going to be sleeping around, with or without a pill or contraceptives. It simply was scandalous, whoring, shameful and nothing to be proud of. No father would ever brag that his daughter bagged a guy that was older than him and would do everything to plug his ears up when told about it. I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying, but your personal anedotes are certainly not within the norm of most guys/girls I have ever seen, and I'm pretty sure most people. I'm not sure if you grew up in a religious household/community or not but it seems that's where that attitude was usually the strongest and most shameful. A girl took VERY careful measures not to let anyone know she slept with a guy, except maybe her best friend. A guy hoped the whole school heard about it, and the school next county.
Take any group of boys and the one who's had the most conquests is pedestaled. While you take any group of girls, and the one who's been with the most guys is a hoebag. This is the reality and even our cultural shows/movies/music reflect that.
Anytime you hear about a female teacher and a underage boy having sex, the first thing you hear people say is "Man, he's one lucky kid" or "I wish I had teachers like that when I was that age." But if it's a male teacher and a girl, he's a pervert and she's a victim, when in both cases there's not much difference at all. This is the plainest evidence of what I was talking about earlier about the "archaic system" we have in this country that's really masked sexism. Women play the sexist angle when they want something (this girl and her free food, a job) and it has nothing to do with who's stronger. Then when they don't want something (the check, responsiblity on a job) it's harrassment or a sign of weakness.
You see it in MMOs: guys flock to help a girl when they hear that voice over Vent, but a dude gets scrub parts if they hear a bass voice asking for help. Then later, they get all over anyone saying she sucks as a player (if she does) because they think they have to defend her honor or something as a female, not as a player.
Sure, everyone is taught to "respect women" on some scale but it's usually along the lines of "If you sleep with a girl, make sure you don't brag about her in public", that kind of thing. The respect you are talking about is the same respect that you'd give to anyone like your grandma or Mrs. Jones, or Mr. Smith, so it's not really the same thing we're talking about I don't think. Kind of goes into that "women in the kitchen thing" and "God said women should obey men" mindset.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I love a happy ending.
I'm glad she was able to meet a nice woman who was in sync with what she was looking for in a relationship.
Because a women needs to know that you will be able to provide for her and her children. That when she is pregnant and needs support you are the kind of man able and willing to provide it.
So splash your cash mate. Let all the women around you see that you are not just a boy.
I find this story is little more than some whinney womans date. I fail to find any relevance past her being the star of her own little personal romance. I can't spot any culture shocks or zeitgeists here. Just normal girly stories told around the world everywhere.