Originally posted by Marcus- I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs.
The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook.
However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Hey, the same things are there for you. If you're unwilling to get it, too bad, so sad. You do not deserve it simply for paying your way. Some people end up realizing that some games are lost causes due to their responsibilities. Sucks, I can feel for em, but thats life right? Family>Gaming We chose that life. Suck it up folks. I'll be damned if I launch into fuckin up a game that people play with more time/effort than me.
You dont like to raid with, or group with, other people, I can understand that. Im not sure why you would play a game with that style of gaming at its core. Fundamentals. Structure. The GUTS. You do not understand what the game boils down to when its a solofest. Why?
You sure do know, very well, what it boils down to when you are shut out in a groupfest. I can come to your side, yet you cannot(or will not) come to our side. I know where you're coming from. I can understand your point of view. I can even agree that your form is worthy of attention. Why are you so intolerant to other playstyles without injecting your own into it?
There is no 'happy medium'. Its 80/20 or bust. You and I would likely get along great in many realms. We'll never get along when we both alter the focus of the others gameplay fundamentals. I wouldnt hate ya though, cause I respect your perspective.
I'm not talking about changing any existing games. I wouldn't want to be able to do WoW's 25 man raids solo, the game is just not set up that way. WoW as a whole is one huge greed driven carrot on a stick and being able to solo raids would completely destroy that aspect.
I'm saying that any future MMO developments should take into consideration the casual gamers and solo gamers and crafters and all these other play styles and make their experience just as fun and rewarding as the group experience.
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. My good friend started playing a miner in UO. That's all he did was mine and make weapons and armor. He loved it and he made a lot of money. He had no weapon skills, nor magic skills and he relied on the rest of the guild to offer protection, which we did because he gave us armor, weapons and fixed stuff for us.
He had a great time playing how he wanted and got rewarded for it. Name one recent MMO (besides EVE) where a person can just be a miner or a crafter without needed to raid for end-game materials. Where player crafting is just as viable and rewarding as grouping and raiding. I can think of maybe one: Darkfall if you can overlook the hacking, exploiting and the myriad of other problems the game has.
The last batch of games, although have soloing and crafting, are geared more towards the combat group/raider type. What I want is a game which would make other play styles just as feasible. I mean a game 11 years ago did just that and is still running.
Originally posted by Cypryss Originally posted by Demonshank
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Demonshank
Originally posted by Marcus- I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special? Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs. The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook. However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Hey, the same things are there for you. If you're unwilling to get it, too bad, so sad. You do not deserve it simply for paying your way. Some people end up realizing that some games are lost causes due to their responsibilities. Sucks, I can feel for em, but thats life right? Family>Gaming We chose that life. Suck it up folks. I'll be damned if I launch into fuckin up a game that people play with more time/effort than me.
You dont like to raid with, or group with, other people, I can understand that. Im not sure why you would play a game with that style of gaming at its core. Fundamentals. Structure. The GUTS. You do not understand what the game boils down to when its a solofest. Why?
You sure do know, very well, what it boils down to when you are shut out in a groupfest. I can come to your side, yet you cannot(or will not) come to our side. I know where you're coming from. I can understand your point of view. I can even agree that your form is worthy of attention. Why are you so intolerant to other playstyles without injecting your own into it?
There is no 'happy medium'. Its 80/20 or bust. You and I would likely get along great in many realms. We'll never get along when we both alter the focus of the others gameplay fundamentals. I wouldnt hate ya though, cause I respect your perspective.
Who the hell are you to say "The only true way to enjoy a mmorpg and progress at an equal rate is with a group?" Are you a Dev or just not willing to understand what's in front of you or both ?
That is not a valid quote of mine. I represent the idea that we cannot co-exist. Either our side destroys yours or vise versa. I do not wish to play alongside soloists, cause it quickly spirals down to me becomming a soloist also to continue enjoying the game.
If you're referring to my actual statement that if a developer sets out a goal and it is designed to be overcome by a group, than that is how I treat that challenge. I do not stir up trouble and demand it be made acheivable by any means that suit me or my standing in terms of time or life responsibilities. The developer is the boss. Those creators had a challenge and a way/'s to conquer it.
For anyone to think that cause 40 people took on the challenge and those 40 people all pay the same money as I do that im entitled to recieve their rewards without the same sacrifice is BS. Not adding up their hours taken and deciding ill just x5 it and thats even. NO. Hell NO. Go get your own damn 39 people and earn it yourself, do not invalidate their accomplishments.
I respect you and all the other soloists out there. The real points that get lost or dodged is how both sides are influenced for the worse when forced together in the same game. You guys/gals deserve your solo haven. We groupers deserve our haven. Im not buying this game will close up crap. If its built right and is a well created game it will be successful for what it represents. If it sucks like alot of recent titles, than its got nothing to do with the target audience.
Id appreciate you quit the condescending mold of your statements. I believe we can discuss this topic without that nonsense. Ive given you no reason to turn hasty in your reply.
Josher also said that people that enjoy solo content are ruining mmorpgs. That is far from the truth. Look around, if anything we are supporting for more epic lore content while playing the mmo and everyone wants that. Proof is Bioware and TOR. Everything is voice based quests. By the looks of it, with an epic storyline. Now who doesn't want that ?
Umm No. I said people who ONLY solo are ruining MMOs for THEMSELVES. Keep it in context buddy boy=) Unrealistic expectations will ruin any game. WOW is a fantastic MMO and you can play alone the whole time. It gives you as many solo options as any MMO out there. More than most actually. Sure you can't do every dungeon, but hey, its a MMO afterall, not a single player game. Expecting to do everything alone is rather unrealistic. If you can't see that, no wonder you're confused.
Regarding TOR, we'll see how the content compares to a single player game. Because, if I'm playing it solo, it better be just as good as Fallout3, Mass Effect, Oblivion, KOTOR or any other single player RPG. Its not going to measure up.
Being a person that likes both styles and supports both styles of gameing, I think both aspects arre impotant in an mmo these days.
I remember in EQ where grouping was a must for almost everything, being a Cleric/healer at that time there were days where I log in to the game and sit for maybe 1 hr sending /ooc (out of character) masseges and then just give up and log out. Why? well it was BORING to sit infront of the screen for a whole hour infront of your monitor doing nothing but spamming the chat.
I believe there are other aspects why some gamers would like to be able to solo when they want to solo, it's because there are groups that have REQUIREMENTS like class/armor and what not, it is becomeg more like applying for a job than playing a game with a group really. so maybe the people that like to group need to check on what they are doing that makes soloers wanting to solo.
Now to discuss the solo aspecs, yes it is great and nice to be able to solo when wanting to, but at the same time we are playing online to be social as well, and have fun playing the mmo. I have just mentioned are some of the classes that have it hard to solo if solo content is HARD, which is why divelopers are lowering the diffeculty for solo content (in my openion). It's unfair for someone playing a warior or a pet class to want solo content but overlook the support classes.
Many would ask why would you play a support class if you solo? well that is the thing I don't ONLY solo but I do when I want to and when it seems like it would take way too long to get into a group that needs to do something that is on my list of needs as well. But then again that might be my fuilt in some part as well since I hate leading/creating a group so I should pay the consequences I guess in some ways.
Originally posted by heartless Originally posted by Demonshank
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Demonshank
Originally posted by Marcus- I'll go out on a limb here, and say soloers want gear just as good as everyone else, because (as an example), if I as a soloer, meet you (as a raider?) with much better gear, in a pvp situation, and you hand me my butt, not because you were better skilled, but had better gear, well, where does that put me? Other than holding my butt? How long do you think i will continue to pay a monthly fee for that? As for why a soloer would want as much content, how long do you think i am going to pay a monthly fee after i run out of content? In a nutshell, getting killed in PvP because i cant aquire the gear thats neccasary to compete, or standing around because i have run out of content, is no longer fun, and thats why i play $15 a month.
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special? Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs. The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook. However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Hey, the same things are there for you. If you're unwilling to get it, too bad, so sad. You do not deserve it simply for paying your way. Some people end up realizing that some games are lost causes due to their responsibilities. Sucks, I can feel for em, but thats life right? Family>Gaming We chose that life. Suck it up folks. I'll be damned if I launch into fuckin up a game that people play with more time/effort than me.
You dont like to raid with, or group with, other people, I can understand that. Im not sure why you would play a game with that style of gaming at its core. Fundamentals. Structure. The GUTS. You do not understand what the game boils down to when its a solofest. Why?
You sure do know, very well, what it boils down to when you are shut out in a groupfest. I can come to your side, yet you cannot(or will not) come to our side. I know where you're coming from. I can understand your point of view. I can even agree that your form is worthy of attention. Why are you so intolerant to other playstyles without injecting your own into it?
There is no 'happy medium'. Its 80/20 or bust. You and I would likely get along great in many realms. We'll never get along when we both alter the focus of the others gameplay fundamentals. I wouldnt hate ya though, cause I respect your perspective.
I'm not talking about changing any existing games. I wouldn't want to be able to do WoW's 25 man raids solo, the game is just not set up that way. WoW as a whole is one huge greed driven carrot on a stick and being able to solo raids would completely destroy that aspect. I'm saying that any future MMO developments should take into consideration the casual gamers and solo gamers and crafters and all these other play styles and make their experience just as fun and rewarding as the group experience. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. My good friend started playing a miner in UO. That's all he did was mine and make weapons and armor. He loved it and he made a lot of money. He had no weapon skills, nor magic skills and he relied on the rest of the guild to offer protection, which we did because he gave us armor, weapons and fixed stuff for us. He had a great time playing how he wanted and got rewarded for it. Name one recent MMO (besides EVE) where a person can just be a miner or a crafter without needed to raid for end-game materials. Where player crafting is just as viable and rewarding as grouping and raiding. I can think of maybe one: Darkfall if you can overlook the hacking, exploiting and the myriad of other problems the game has. The last batch of games, although have soloing and crafting, are geared more towards the combat group/raider type. What I want is a game which would make other play styles just as feasible. I mean a game 11 years ago did just that and is still running.
You're right, there are alot of avenues that need exploring. Ive been around as long as most of you, maybe longer than some. We all got a dog in this fight. Many playstyles can be appreciated. The depth gets overlooked for both soloers and groupers when they are placed on equal footing. I agree that developers must heavily weigh out which type of audience they are trying to capture. I know its about making enough money to fill Fort Knox. I appreciate the difficulty in appeasing both sides. Im not in the camp that thinks you must rack up millions and millions to be seen as a credible contribution to the genre.
Maybe we(groupers) are in the minority. Im not willing to concede that point. I think that with the expansion of mmo gamer population through this decade its not indisputable. I for some reason believe(call me crazy) we want a good game #1. That trumps everything. If its a good game, we will play it. Hopefully through enough debate and consideration we can prevent screwing up our respective games when/if we do come together in the future. I think its more when not if.
The main point is groupers are equally deserving of a new/next gen game focused around good grouping, built on a more forgiving and accessible platform than yesterdays mmo. Never know, you guys/gals might like the hell out of it.
We need a refresh though. We need to redefine Pick Up Group. Childish behavior and community separatists should not be accepted as 'the way it is'. If this type of gaming is to flourish further it needs to be nurtured appropriately. There are alot of really great gamers out there, all over the world. They've been driven into solitary, unattached to their community by the vocal harrassment and foolishness of the unrejected hoodlums.
You know what's really ruining MMOs today? Intolerance towards other people's play style. People need to take a step back and realize that MMOs are games and the whole point of playing them is to have fun. These heated debates about solo and group are silly. We're all gamers, playing these games to have fun. We may have different ideas what fun is but in the long run, what you find fun is not better nor more important than what other people find fun. Enjoy the game, play it and don't worry about how other people play it.
omg you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
So why is it so important that group players have more content and get better gear than solo players if "what you find fun is not better nor more important that what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it"??
All you've explained is that you think grouping is the better play style and therefore should get the better rewards, because it sure as hell isn't based off of risk as if that term could even be applied to a game.
The whole point of reward systems in games is to entice you to keep playing. Developers can put arbitrary systems in place to give preferential treatment to certain player types, but by doing so, they sabotage the very purpose of these games which is to make money and they could make a hell of a lot more money if they moved away from a system of haves and have nots. We're sick of that crap in real life, not exactly happy to see it forced upon us in games. Forced because no developer has had the balls or the foresight to do things differently.
Who gives a crap about the amount of solo content if said content is nothing more than unrewarding kill xxx quests and faction grinds. If this is the kind of crap they think soloers like, then at least have the decency to offer rewards that are compelling enough to keep us playing and paying.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
I don't see why a game can't offer plenty of both party and solo content... oh wait, I can see why... Greed. Solo players want the same level of gear and loot as the people who party up and do dungeons/raids get. For some reason they think it's fair to get the same gear by themselves that other people had to work together to get... That is what is driving this push towards more solo gameplay, honest and simple greed mixed with a bit of jealousy. Now, I'm NOT advocating forced grouping ala FFXI and such where you CAN'T solo. I'm just saying give plenty of content for both party and solo play, and STFU about loot disparity and enjoy what you have and are able to get with your playstyle. That being said, I think crafting should be the solo players way to get high-end gear, just take a lot longer in terms of time investment.... But if you think about time investment in say raiding versus time investment in gathering resources to make an item, unless you are VERY lucky and get the item you want on the first boss kill the two are usually about even... days/weeks.
The problem is that the raiders overvalue the amount of effort that they spend to get their rewards and massively undervalue any effort by the soloer/casual grouper. So a soloer who puts a ton of effort into playing the game gets treated like a lazy bum while a raider who gets carried by others gets treated like a super player.
I play WoW for RELAXATION - NOT AS A JOB - NOT to see how fast I can advance or how quick I can accumulate the ultimate super weapons and armor. I have been playing for over THREE years now and my HIGHEST toon is only Level 47 ( I have a bad case of ALT-itis.)
If I want to take an hour to mine for making money in the AH - or pick posies (herbalism) to supply my Inscription talent - or just to fish to feed my pet - I can do so without having a bunch of greedy groupies bitch about me holding up their progress. I frankly don't SHIV A GIT about their advancement.
If I can SOLO an instance that others take a dozen players to complete it only indicates to me that the others DON'T HAVE A CLUE about how to play their character character class - and YES if I doSOLO the instance I DO DESERVE all the same Goodies that the groupies get - MAYBE EVEN SOME BONUS GOODIES because they are NOT AS GOOD AS I AM!!
Whenever I HAVE grouped in the past I have had bad experiences ranging from being screwed out of anything worthwhile to having the group hearth out on me - leaving me face first in Bandini Mountain (as the old saying goes.) It has gotten to the point where I will ONLY group with my son and my triplet 11 year old granddaughters (who play FAR BETTER than MOST of the groupies I have found in the past.)
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
Dude, really I'm just playing with you and everyone else, you just happened to take the bait. I really couldn't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else chooses to do as it's not my $15 a month. I just get a kick out of how easy some of the people get all worked up over something so stupid. I mean who really cares about what Joe Blow wants to do on his own time. NOT ME! I say whatever floats your boat Bub! Besides that I had the excuse to use a lot of these cool emotes
Matter of fact my true sentiments most closely resemble Artursl Without all the F-bombs though.
Originally posted by Artursl
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
That's what I've been saying all along. There is no 'proper' play style all are equally important and all should be equally catered to by developers. People should have an option to play how they want and not be pigeonholed into a certain play style.
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
That's what I've been saying all along. There is no 'proper' play style all are equally important and all should be equally catered to by developers. People should have an option to play how they want and not be pigeonholed into a certain play style.
THis is the problem you cant balance two big play styles in one game, one or the other will take the bigger hit. If you make solo easy in a game, grouping will get hurt, if you make a game hard enough where grouping is needed soloing takes a hit, and 9 times out of ten its always grouping that takes the hit.
Lastly, aside from commenting on the post above I wanted to add that I believe that there's something really wrong with those of you anti-group people out there and you should seek immediate help. Either you're a big fat chicken#$%! Care Bear or you spent too much time being shoved into that locker in high school and got so used to being alone that you pee yourself from nervousness when you are around others. Worst of all, your also the most likely to go postal. So do us all a favor, strap on a diaper and try grouping and maybe it'll save some lives!
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
That's what I've been saying all along. There is no 'proper' play style all are equally important and all should be equally catered to by developers. People should have an option to play how they want and not be pigeonholed into a certain play style.
THis is the problem you cant balance two big play styles in one game, one or the other will take the bigger hit. If you make solo easy in a game, grouping will get hurt, if you make a game hard enough where grouping is needed soloing takes a hit, and 9 times out of ten its always grouping that takes the hit.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size.
Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting.
Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
You know what is really funny with all this crying, and whining, QQing solo people are ruining my game is people are blaming the effect instead of the cause. Make grouping better, making grouping about more then just epic loot, make grouping more about surviving and less about OOOOO look at my epic loot drops I won.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size.
Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting.
Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
It is to bad people can't seam to grasp this concept.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size.
Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting.
Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
It is to bad people can't seam to grasp this concept.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size. Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting. Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size. Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting. Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Well, you can choose the easier way out and just scale the content. Say for example if it's only 1 player, the mob has 100% HP and does 100% damage. 2 players the mob has 200% HP and does 150% damage and so on and so forth. Or maybe 1 player and two mobs per group spawn. Two players and three mobs spawn... It's already been done in CoH and DDO so if you want, look to those games to see how they did it. CoH has a free trial and DDO is F2P.
The harder part would be designing different content for solo and group play. But here's an idea. Say, for example, you're a solo rogue. A possible mission for you would be to infiltrate a castle and steal a gemstone. The condition would be "No guards alerted for a bonus." So you have a mission where you have to be stealthy and avoid the guards (Ever play Splinter Cell? Sort of like that). So you manage to avoid the guards and reach the room with the gemstone but there is a puzzle that you have to solve before you can steal it. You solve the puzzle, finish the mission and if you fulfill the bonus condition, you get a bonus reward.
A group version of this would be to storm the castle and steal the gemstone and a bonus condition could be "free the captives and kill the jailers and the guard captain." So you have the same exact quest but now there is a twist. Not only do you have to free the captives, you have a boss fight with the guard captain and the jailers. Finish the mission and fulfill the bonus condition and you get a bonus reward.
Or say you're a healer. Maybe your solo mission would be heal the captives in a certain amount of time.
Anyway, those are just examples. But it's absolutely possible to gear the game for both types of game play.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size. Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting. Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Well, you can choose the easier way out and just scale the content. Say for example if it's only 1 player, the mob has 100% HP and does 100% damage. 2 players the mob has 200% HP and does 150% damage and so on and so forth. Or maybe 1 player and two mobs per group spawn. Two players and three mobs spawn... It's already been done in CoH and DDO so if you want, look to those games to see how they did it. CoH has a free trial and DDO is F2P.
The harder part would be designing different content for solo and group play. But here's an idea. Say, for example, you're a solo rogue. A possible mission for you would be to infiltrate a castle and steal a gemstone. The condition would be "No guards alerted for a bonus." So you have a mission where you have to be stealthy and avoid the guards (Ever play Splinter Cell? Sort of like that). So you manage to avoid the guards and reach the room with the gemstone but there is a puzzle that you have to solve before you can steal it. You solve the puzzle, finish the mission and if you fulfill the bonus condition, you get a bonus reward.
A group version of this would be to storm the castle and steal the gemstone and a bonus condition could be "free the captives and kill the jailers and the guard captain." So you have the same exact quest but now there is a twist. Not only do you have to free the captives, you have a boss fight with the guard captain and the jailers. Finish the mission and fulfill the bonus condition and you get a bonus reward.
Or say you're a healer. Maybe your solo mission would be heal the captives in a certain amount of time.
Anyway, those are just examples. But it's absolutely possible to gear the game for both types of game play.
I support the idea for solo and group content. My point was you were using an example that isn't feasible, to apply single-player concepts into a multi-player environment.
For example, the Rogue mission example you offer. Its a nice idea, but the actual implementation requires a lot of work, especially if the game engine isn't designed to support that style of play. And even then, once you reach the point where it is feasible, you have to have an underlying system to keep feeding you those missions. For example, WoW has a few missions like that as part of Rogue class quests. Not as flashed as you mention, but about as well as can be done with the WoW engine as far as I can tell.
However, the question that comes down to it then, is how do you keep missions like that coming? If you generate several missions like that, then you're taking precious development time that is only going to affect 1/8th of the player base, instead of something that is accessible to everyone. As a player, you may appreciate the effort, but as a developer it economical in any way shape or form. It sucks to say that, as it sounds like a cop out, but its the reality of the situation.
Of course, you can implement some sort of dynamic missions system, ala Dungeons and Dragons Online or City of Heroes, but even that has its downsides. Whereas going over the same content over and over again is dull and boring (such as you might in WoW) its also dull and boring over time to go over the same pre-generated content. You begin to see the patterns, or see the same configuration/puzzles over and over again. You could combine both systems, but again, its another thing that currently isn't a realistic option.
The answer to the problem is as it is now. If you care enough about dynamic content that you're willing to accept the downsides, then you play a game that offers that. Otherwise you look for another game. If you don't care enough about either system, you just try out both types till you find a game that matches other requirements.
And, at the end of the day, you're suggestion has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with variety. What is difficulty about infiltrating a castle to steal a gemstone, or storming it with a group? If you don't take the route of scaling the mobs to the player, then what other option do you have? The Rogue mission you might be able to offer a time-frame in which to do it, but in a dynamic mission system that leaves a lot up to chance and not skill, and in a static mission that only offers a challenge the first time through, and only if a fairly significant chunk of development time was devoted to that one special subset.
For the group mission, maybe you could have a time limit combined with multiple entry paths requiring different skills to get around. But what does that offer? You can't make something so difficult that it is impossible, and you can't make something so difficulty that it requires a specific set of skills to get by, because you can't always assume those skills are available. Which is one of the significant differences between singler player and multi player balancing. Likewise, say you find it too difficult, but you come back in a few levels and just power through it. What have you gained? Not much. If you scale the encounters inside the castle to the player level, then you have to question what is the worth in putting in the other stuff.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size. Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting. Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Well, you can choose the easier way out and just scale the content. Say for example if it's only 1 player, the mob has 100% HP and does 100% damage. 2 players the mob has 200% HP and does 150% damage and so on and so forth. Or maybe 1 player and two mobs per group spawn. Two players and three mobs spawn... It's already been done in CoH and DDO so if you want, look to those games to see how they did it. CoH has a free trial and DDO is F2P.
The harder part would be designing different content for solo and group play. But here's an idea. Say, for example, you're a solo rogue. A possible mission for you would be to infiltrate a castle and steal a gemstone. The condition would be "No guards alerted for a bonus." So you have a mission where you have to be stealthy and avoid the guards (Ever play Splinter Cell? Sort of like that). So you manage to avoid the guards and reach the room with the gemstone but there is a puzzle that you have to solve before you can steal it. You solve the puzzle, finish the mission and if you fulfill the bonus condition, you get a bonus reward.
A group version of this would be to storm the castle and steal the gemstone and a bonus condition could be "free the captives and kill the jailers and the guard captain." So you have the same exact quest but now there is a twist. Not only do you have to free the captives, you have a boss fight with the guard captain and the jailers. Finish the mission and fulfill the bonus condition and you get a bonus reward.
Or say you're a healer. Maybe your solo mission would be heal the captives in a certain amount of time.
Anyway, those are just examples. But it's absolutely possible to gear the game for both types of game play.
I support the idea for solo and group content. My point was you were using an example that isn't feasible, to apply single-player concepts into a multi-player environment.
For example, the Rogue mission example you offer. Its a nice idea, but the actual implementation requires a lot of work, especially if the game engine isn't designed to support that style of play. And even then, once you reach the point where it is feasible, you have to have an underlying system to keep feeding you those missions. For example, WoW has a few missions like that as part of Rogue class quests. Not as flashed as you mention, but about as well as can be done with the WoW engine as far as I can tell.
However, the question that comes down to it then, is how do you keep missions like that coming? If you generate several missions like that, then you're taking precious development time that is only going to affect 1/8th of the player base, instead of something that is accessible to everyone. As a player, you may appreciate the effort, but as a developer it economical in any way shape or form. It sucks to say that, as it sounds like a cop out, but its the reality of the situation.
Of course, you can implement some sort of dynamic missions system, ala Dungeons and Dragons Online or City of Heroes, but even that has its downsides. Whereas going over the same content over and over again is dull and boring (such as you might in WoW) its also dull and boring over time to go over the same pre-generated content. You begin to see the patterns, or see the same configuration/puzzles over and over again. You could combine both systems, but again, its another thing that currently isn't a realistic option.
The answer to the problem is as it is now. If you care enough about dynamic content that you're willing to accept the downsides, then you play a game that offers that. Otherwise you look for another game. If you don't care enough about either system, you just try out both types till you find a game that matches other requirements.
And, at the end of the day, you're suggestion has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with variety. What is difficulty about infiltrating a castle to steal a gemstone, or storming it with a group? If you don't take the route of scaling the mobs to the player, then what other option do you have? The Rogue mission you might be able to offer a time-frame in which to do it, but in a dynamic mission system that leaves a lot up to chance and not skill, and in a static mission that only offers a challenge the first time through, and only if a fairly significant chunk of development time was devoted to that one special subset.
For the group mission, maybe you could have a time limit combined with multiple entry paths requiring different skills to get around. But what does that offer? You can't make something so difficult that it is impossible, and you can't make something so difficulty that it requires a specific set of skills to get by, because you can't always assume those skills are available. Which is one of the significant differences between singler player and multi player balancing. Likewise, say you find it too difficult, but you come back in a few levels and just power through it. What have you gained? Not much. If you scale the encounters inside the castle to the player level, then you have to question what is the worth in putting in the other stuff.
Bookmark this post and we'll come back to it once SWTOR comes out. It's going to have custom build content for all player classes and there are supposed to be 8 of them.
Right now it's all speculation. You're talking about the limitations of WoW, which is running on an engine that probably started it's life before Blizzard announced WoW in 2001.
Technology is always advancing. Besides which, none of the current MMOs are designed this way so we'll see how TOR handles this. It's all about talking a personalized approach towards different classes.
Bookmark this post and we'll come back to it once SWTOR comes out. It's going to have custom build content for all player classes and there are supposed to be 8 of them. Right now it's all speculation. You're talking about the limitations of WoW, which is running on an engine that probably started it's life before Blizzard announced WoW in 2001. Technology is always advancing. Besides which, none of the current MMOs are designed this way so we'll see how TOR handles this. It's all about talking a personalized approach towards different classes.
It isn't a technological limitation. Everything you described is possible. The problem is the other aspects of it. At the end of the day a game has to be profitable, and be released before the development house goes under trying to get it how they want it.
Right now, its just a matter of someone finding a more efficient way of doing the job, or finding more efficient ways of doing other business so you can devote more resources (money and people) to content generation.
Of course, even when all that is done you still have to have the creativity to keep the ideas flowing. Say someone does find a way of making a castle storm mission interesting; what happens when you've played that mission 100 times?
Bookmark this post and we'll come back to it once SWTOR comes out. It's going to have custom build content for all player classes and there are supposed to be 8 of them. Right now it's all speculation. You're talking about the limitations of WoW, which is running on an engine that probably started it's life before Blizzard announced WoW in 2001. Technology is always advancing. Besides which, none of the current MMOs are designed this way so we'll see how TOR handles this. It's all about talking a personalized approach towards different classes.
It isn't a technological limitation. Everything you described is possible. The problem is the other aspects of it. At the end of the day a game has to be profitable, and be released before the development house goes under trying to get it how they want it.
Right now, its just a matter of someone finding a more efficient way of doing the job, or finding more efficient ways of doing other business so you can devote more resources (money and people) to content generation.
Of course, even when all that is done you still have to have the creativity to keep the ideas flowing. Say someone does find a way of making a castle storm mission interesting; what happens when you've played that mission 100 times?
I don't know, what happens when you run Kara 100 times?
Comments
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs.
The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook.
However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Hey, the same things are there for you. If you're unwilling to get it, too bad, so sad. You do not deserve it simply for paying your way. Some people end up realizing that some games are lost causes due to their responsibilities. Sucks, I can feel for em, but thats life right? Family>Gaming We chose that life. Suck it up folks. I'll be damned if I launch into fuckin up a game that people play with more time/effort than me.
You dont like to raid with, or group with, other people, I can understand that. Im not sure why you would play a game with that style of gaming at its core. Fundamentals. Structure. The GUTS. You do not understand what the game boils down to when its a solofest. Why?
You sure do know, very well, what it boils down to when you are shut out in a groupfest. I can come to your side, yet you cannot(or will not) come to our side. I know where you're coming from. I can understand your point of view. I can even agree that your form is worthy of attention. Why are you so intolerant to other playstyles without injecting your own into it?
There is no 'happy medium'. Its 80/20 or bust. You and I would likely get along great in many realms. We'll never get along when we both alter the focus of the others gameplay fundamentals. I wouldnt hate ya though, cause I respect your perspective.
I'm not talking about changing any existing games. I wouldn't want to be able to do WoW's 25 man raids solo, the game is just not set up that way. WoW as a whole is one huge greed driven carrot on a stick and being able to solo raids would completely destroy that aspect.
I'm saying that any future MMO developments should take into consideration the casual gamers and solo gamers and crafters and all these other play styles and make their experience just as fun and rewarding as the group experience.
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. My good friend started playing a miner in UO. That's all he did was mine and make weapons and armor. He loved it and he made a lot of money. He had no weapon skills, nor magic skills and he relied on the rest of the guild to offer protection, which we did because he gave us armor, weapons and fixed stuff for us.
He had a great time playing how he wanted and got rewarded for it. Name one recent MMO (besides EVE) where a person can just be a miner or a crafter without needed to raid for end-game materials. Where player crafting is just as viable and rewarding as grouping and raiding. I can think of maybe one: Darkfall if you can overlook the hacking, exploiting and the myriad of other problems the game has.
The last batch of games, although have soloing and crafting, are geared more towards the combat group/raider type. What I want is a game which would make other play styles just as feasible. I mean a game 11 years ago did just that and is still running.
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs.
The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook.
However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Hey, the same things are there for you. If you're unwilling to get it, too bad, so sad. You do not deserve it simply for paying your way. Some people end up realizing that some games are lost causes due to their responsibilities. Sucks, I can feel for em, but thats life right? Family>Gaming We chose that life. Suck it up folks. I'll be damned if I launch into fuckin up a game that people play with more time/effort than me.
You dont like to raid with, or group with, other people, I can understand that. Im not sure why you would play a game with that style of gaming at its core. Fundamentals. Structure. The GUTS. You do not understand what the game boils down to when its a solofest. Why?
You sure do know, very well, what it boils down to when you are shut out in a groupfest. I can come to your side, yet you cannot(or will not) come to our side. I know where you're coming from. I can understand your point of view. I can even agree that your form is worthy of attention. Why are you so intolerant to other playstyles without injecting your own into it?
There is no 'happy medium'. Its 80/20 or bust. You and I would likely get along great in many realms. We'll never get along when we both alter the focus of the others gameplay fundamentals. I wouldnt hate ya though, cause I respect your perspective.
Who the hell are you to say "The only true way to enjoy a mmorpg and progress at an equal rate is with a group?" Are you a Dev or just not willing to understand what's in front of you or both ?
That is not a valid quote of mine. I represent the idea that we cannot co-exist. Either our side destroys yours or vise versa. I do not wish to play alongside soloists, cause it quickly spirals down to me becomming a soloist also to continue enjoying the game.
If you're referring to my actual statement that if a developer sets out a goal and it is designed to be overcome by a group, than that is how I treat that challenge. I do not stir up trouble and demand it be made acheivable by any means that suit me or my standing in terms of time or life responsibilities. The developer is the boss. Those creators had a challenge and a way/'s to conquer it.
For anyone to think that cause 40 people took on the challenge and those 40 people all pay the same money as I do that im entitled to recieve their rewards without the same sacrifice is BS. Not adding up their hours taken and deciding ill just x5 it and thats even. NO. Hell NO. Go get your own damn 39 people and earn it yourself, do not invalidate their accomplishments.
I respect you and all the other soloists out there. The real points that get lost or dodged is how both sides are influenced for the worse when forced together in the same game. You guys/gals deserve your solo haven. We groupers deserve our haven. Im not buying this game will close up crap. If its built right and is a well created game it will be successful for what it represents. If it sucks like alot of recent titles, than its got nothing to do with the target audience.
Id appreciate you quit the condescending mold of your statements. I believe we can discuss this topic without that nonsense. Ive given you no reason to turn hasty in your reply.
Umm No. I said people who ONLY solo are ruining MMOs for THEMSELVES. Keep it in context buddy boy=) Unrealistic expectations will ruin any game. WOW is a fantastic MMO and you can play alone the whole time. It gives you as many solo options as any MMO out there. More than most actually. Sure you can't do every dungeon, but hey, its a MMO afterall, not a single player game. Expecting to do everything alone is rather unrealistic. If you can't see that, no wonder you're confused.
Regarding TOR, we'll see how the content compares to a single player game. Because, if I'm playing it solo, it better be just as good as Fallout3, Mass Effect, Oblivion, KOTOR or any other single player RPG. Its not going to measure up.
Being a person that likes both styles and supports both styles of gameing, I think both aspects arre impotant in an mmo these days.
I remember in EQ where grouping was a must for almost everything, being a Cleric/healer at that time there were days where I log in to the game and sit for maybe 1 hr sending /ooc (out of character) masseges and then just give up and log out. Why? well it was BORING to sit infront of the screen for a whole hour infront of your monitor doing nothing but spamming the chat.
I believe there are other aspects why some gamers would like to be able to solo when they want to solo, it's because there are groups that have REQUIREMENTS like class/armor and what not, it is becomeg more like applying for a job than playing a game with a group really. so maybe the people that like to group need to check on what they are doing that makes soloers wanting to solo.
Now to discuss the solo aspecs, yes it is great and nice to be able to solo when wanting to, but at the same time we are playing online to be social as well, and have fun playing the mmo. I have just mentioned are some of the classes that have it hard to solo if solo content is HARD, which is why divelopers are lowering the diffeculty for solo content (in my openion). It's unfair for someone playing a warior or a pet class to want solo content but overlook the support classes.
Many would ask why would you play a support class if you solo? well that is the thing I don't ONLY solo but I do when I want to and when it seems like it would take way too long to get into a group that needs to do something that is on my list of needs as well. But then again that might be my fuilt in some part as well since I hate leading/creating a group so I should pay the consequences I guess in some ways.
The gear is there for you. Why can you not go earn it like the person who owned you did? Again, the gear is there for you too. Nobody stops you from earning that gear. Are you special?
Simply because some of us either don't like to raid with 25-40+ other people for hours on end or because we don't have the means to do it. Some people have families, kids or erratic schedules. Those people pay the same $15 but are treated like second class citizens in most MMOs.
The majority of gamers in MMOs are casual but have access to sub par gear and the least content. Why? Because current MMOs are still following the old EQ style and WoW in particular was designed by ex-EQ raiders. Who share the same greedy, I'm better than you, outlook.
However, you're forgetting one most important aspect of what MMOs are. They are a form of entertainment not a job.
Hey, the same things are there for you. If you're unwilling to get it, too bad, so sad. You do not deserve it simply for paying your way. Some people end up realizing that some games are lost causes due to their responsibilities. Sucks, I can feel for em, but thats life right? Family>Gaming We chose that life. Suck it up folks. I'll be damned if I launch into fuckin up a game that people play with more time/effort than me.
You dont like to raid with, or group with, other people, I can understand that. Im not sure why you would play a game with that style of gaming at its core. Fundamentals. Structure. The GUTS. You do not understand what the game boils down to when its a solofest. Why?
You sure do know, very well, what it boils down to when you are shut out in a groupfest. I can come to your side, yet you cannot(or will not) come to our side. I know where you're coming from. I can understand your point of view. I can even agree that your form is worthy of attention. Why are you so intolerant to other playstyles without injecting your own into it?
There is no 'happy medium'. Its 80/20 or bust. You and I would likely get along great in many realms. We'll never get along when we both alter the focus of the others gameplay fundamentals. I wouldnt hate ya though, cause I respect your perspective.
I'm not talking about changing any existing games. I wouldn't want to be able to do WoW's 25 man raids solo, the game is just not set up that way. WoW as a whole is one huge greed driven carrot on a stick and being able to solo raids would completely destroy that aspect.
I'm saying that any future MMO developments should take into consideration the casual gamers and solo gamers and crafters and all these other play styles and make their experience just as fun and rewarding as the group experience.
I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. My good friend started playing a miner in UO. That's all he did was mine and make weapons and armor. He loved it and he made a lot of money. He had no weapon skills, nor magic skills and he relied on the rest of the guild to offer protection, which we did because he gave us armor, weapons and fixed stuff for us.
He had a great time playing how he wanted and got rewarded for it. Name one recent MMO (besides EVE) where a person can just be a miner or a crafter without needed to raid for end-game materials. Where player crafting is just as viable and rewarding as grouping and raiding. I can think of maybe one: Darkfall if you can overlook the hacking, exploiting and the myriad of other problems the game has.
The last batch of games, although have soloing and crafting, are geared more towards the combat group/raider type. What I want is a game which would make other play styles just as feasible. I mean a game 11 years ago did just that and is still running.
You're right, there are alot of avenues that need exploring. Ive been around as long as most of you, maybe longer than some. We all got a dog in this fight. Many playstyles can be appreciated. The depth gets overlooked for both soloers and groupers when they are placed on equal footing. I agree that developers must heavily weigh out which type of audience they are trying to capture. I know its about making enough money to fill Fort Knox. I appreciate the difficulty in appeasing both sides. Im not in the camp that thinks you must rack up millions and millions to be seen as a credible contribution to the genre.
Maybe we(groupers) are in the minority. Im not willing to concede that point. I think that with the expansion of mmo gamer population through this decade its not indisputable. I for some reason believe(call me crazy) we want a good game #1. That trumps everything. If its a good game, we will play it. Hopefully through enough debate and consideration we can prevent screwing up our respective games when/if we do come together in the future. I think its more when not if.
The main point is groupers are equally deserving of a new/next gen game focused around good grouping, built on a more forgiving and accessible platform than yesterdays mmo. Never know, you guys/gals might like the hell out of it.
We need a refresh though. We need to redefine Pick Up Group. Childish behavior and community separatists should not be accepted as 'the way it is'. If this type of gaming is to flourish further it needs to be nurtured appropriately. There are alot of really great gamers out there, all over the world. They've been driven into solitary, unattached to their community by the vocal harrassment and foolishness of the unrejected hoodlums.
omg
you are awesome.
So why is it so important that solo players have as much content and get just as good of gear as group players if "what you find fun is not better nor mor important than what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it" ??
I've already explained this once.
So why is it so important that group players have more content and get better gear than solo players if "what you find fun is not better nor more important that what other people find fun... play it and don't worry about how other people play it"??
All you've explained is that you think grouping is the better play style and therefore should get the better rewards, because it sure as hell isn't based off of risk as if that term could even be applied to a game.
The whole point of reward systems in games is to entice you to keep playing. Developers can put arbitrary systems in place to give preferential treatment to certain player types, but by doing so, they sabotage the very purpose of these games which is to make money and they could make a hell of a lot more money if they moved away from a system of haves and have nots. We're sick of that crap in real life, not exactly happy to see it forced upon us in games. Forced because no developer has had the balls or the foresight to do things differently.
Who gives a crap about the amount of solo content if said content is nothing more than unrewarding kill xxx quests and faction grinds. If this is the kind of crap they think soloers like, then at least have the decency to offer rewards that are compelling enough to keep us playing and paying.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV) calls it Dependent Personality Disorder.
See? I can play that game too.
Hey man, don't go postal on me
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
Your fail comment, failed.
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV) calls it Dependent Personality Disorder.
See? I can play that game too.
Hey man, don't go postal on me
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
The problem is that the raiders overvalue the amount of effort that they spend to get their rewards and massively undervalue any effort by the soloer/casual grouper. So a soloer who puts a ton of effort into playing the game gets treated like a lazy bum while a raider who gets carried by others gets treated like a super player.
I play WoW for RELAXATION - NOT AS A JOB - NOT to see how fast I can advance or how quick I can accumulate the ultimate super weapons and armor. I have been playing for over THREE years now and my HIGHEST toon is only Level 47 ( I have a bad case of ALT-itis.)
If I want to take an hour to mine for making money in the AH - or pick posies (herbalism) to supply my Inscription talent - or just to fish to feed my pet - I can do so without having a bunch of greedy groupies bitch about me holding up their progress. I frankly don't SHIV A GIT about their advancement.
If I can SOLO an instance that others take a dozen players to complete it only indicates to me that the others DON'T HAVE A CLUE about how to play their character character class - and YES if I doSOLO the instance I DO DESERVE all the same Goodies that the groupies get - MAYBE EVEN SOME BONUS GOODIES because they are NOT AS GOOD AS I AM!!
Whenever I HAVE grouped in the past I have had bad experiences ranging from being screwed out of anything worthwhile to having the group hearth out on me - leaving me face first in Bandini Mountain (as the old saying goes.) It has gotten to the point where I will ONLY group with my son and my triplet 11 year old granddaughters (who play FAR BETTER than MOST of the groupies I have found in the past.)
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV) calls it Dependent Personality Disorder.
See? I can play that game too.
Hey man, don't go postal on me
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
Dude, really I'm just playing with you and everyone else, you just happened to take the bait.
I really couldn't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else chooses to do as it's not my $15 a month. I just get a kick out of how easy some of the people get all worked up over something so stupid. I mean who really cares about what Joe Blow wants to do on his own time. NOT ME! I say whatever floats your boat Bub! Besides that I had the excuse to use a lot of these cool emotes 
Matter of fact my true sentiments most closely resemble Artursl
Without all the F-bombs though.
Originally posted by Artursl
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
Your fail comment, failed.
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV) calls it Dependent Personality Disorder.
See? I can play that game too.
Hey man, don't go postal on me
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
That's what I've been saying all along. There is no 'proper' play style all are equally important and all should be equally catered to by developers. People should have an option to play how they want and not be pigeonholed into a certain play style.
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV) calls it Dependent Personality Disorder.
See? I can play that game too.
Hey man, don't go postal on me
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
That's what I've been saying all along. There is no 'proper' play style all are equally important and all should be equally catered to by developers. People should have an option to play how they want and not be pigeonholed into a certain play style.
THis is the problem you cant balance two big play styles in one game, one or the other will take the bigger hit. If you make solo easy in a game, grouping will get hurt, if you make a game hard enough where grouping is needed soloing takes a hit, and 9 times out of ten its always grouping that takes the hit.
So just because I enjoy playing a GAME a certain way, something is really wrong with me?
OK, I'll play that game. I think something is wrong with people who only want to group. They are obviously suffering from fear of being independent and self-sufficient. They have an overwhelming need to rely on others to help them with everything they do.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV) calls it Dependent Personality Disorder.
See? I can play that game too.
Hey man, don't go postal on me
Oh, and by the way, I believe the site mixed up your avatar with Hoopty's!
Poor attempt at trolling on your part, bro.
I should also add that you may have further proved my point and quite brilliantly I might add, when you paraphrased from that book the doc gave you. Does it have lots of happy pictures in it? Did he tell you to keep it by your bed for those times when you're feeling like you just might crack?
See that's what I'm saying. Who's going postal now?
What's with all the solo vs group bullshit recently?
It's fucking retarded to exclude or minimize one of the above from a game. There are hardcore people that like group content and have time to do it and on the other hand we have people that have maybe an hour or two a day to dedicate to an MMO so ofcourse they prefer soloing instead of wasting 30 minutes just looking for a group if solo content was down to a minimum in a game they play. So focusing on just one of those aspects and giving no or little attention to the other is fucking stupid and will leave a big part of players out. (There are exceptions like EVE, when it's all about corporations, but I'm talking about your average MMO)
That's what I've been saying all along. There is no 'proper' play style all are equally important and all should be equally catered to by developers. People should have an option to play how they want and not be pigeonholed into a certain play style.
THis is the problem you cant balance two big play styles in one game, one or the other will take the bigger hit. If you make solo easy in a game, grouping will get hurt, if you make a game hard enough where grouping is needed soloing takes a hit, and 9 times out of ten its always grouping that takes the hit.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size.
Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting.
Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
You know what is really funny with all this crying, and whining, QQing solo people are ruining my game is people are blaming the effect instead of the cause. Make grouping better, making grouping about more then just epic loot, make grouping more about surviving and less about OOOOO look at my epic loot drops I won.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size.
Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting.
Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
It is to bad people can't seam to grasp this concept.
Of course you can. You can create challenging content for both. You don't need to reuse the same content for solo or group play. Or you make the content scale with group size.
Again, I don't understand where do people get the idea that solo = easy? Have you people never played any single-player games? A lot of them are pretty hard, especially on the highest difficulty setting.
Of course, instead of making content actually challenging, the developers choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage and health points and presto instant group challenge.
It is to bad people can't seam to grasp this concept.
Never underestimate the small minds of humans.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
I believe DDO had/has dungeons that scale for solo or group. Its been quite awhile since i played that game but pretty sure that was implemented.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Well, you can choose the easier way out and just scale the content. Say for example if it's only 1 player, the mob has 100% HP and does 100% damage. 2 players the mob has 200% HP and does 150% damage and so on and so forth. Or maybe 1 player and two mobs per group spawn. Two players and three mobs spawn... It's already been done in CoH and DDO so if you want, look to those games to see how they did it. CoH has a free trial and DDO is F2P.
The harder part would be designing different content for solo and group play. But here's an idea. Say, for example, you're a solo rogue. A possible mission for you would be to infiltrate a castle and steal a gemstone. The condition would be "No guards alerted for a bonus." So you have a mission where you have to be stealthy and avoid the guards (Ever play Splinter Cell? Sort of like that). So you manage to avoid the guards and reach the room with the gemstone but there is a puzzle that you have to solve before you can steal it. You solve the puzzle, finish the mission and if you fulfill the bonus condition, you get a bonus reward.
A group version of this would be to storm the castle and steal the gemstone and a bonus condition could be "free the captives and kill the jailers and the guard captain." So you have the same exact quest but now there is a twist. Not only do you have to free the captives, you have a boss fight with the guard captain and the jailers. Finish the mission and fulfill the bonus condition and you get a bonus reward.
Or say you're a healer. Maybe your solo mission would be heal the captives in a certain amount of time.
Anyway, those are just examples. But it's absolutely possible to gear the game for both types of game play.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Well, you can choose the easier way out and just scale the content. Say for example if it's only 1 player, the mob has 100% HP and does 100% damage. 2 players the mob has 200% HP and does 150% damage and so on and so forth. Or maybe 1 player and two mobs per group spawn. Two players and three mobs spawn... It's already been done in CoH and DDO so if you want, look to those games to see how they did it. CoH has a free trial and DDO is F2P.
The harder part would be designing different content for solo and group play. But here's an idea. Say, for example, you're a solo rogue. A possible mission for you would be to infiltrate a castle and steal a gemstone. The condition would be "No guards alerted for a bonus." So you have a mission where you have to be stealthy and avoid the guards (Ever play Splinter Cell? Sort of like that). So you manage to avoid the guards and reach the room with the gemstone but there is a puzzle that you have to solve before you can steal it. You solve the puzzle, finish the mission and if you fulfill the bonus condition, you get a bonus reward.
A group version of this would be to storm the castle and steal the gemstone and a bonus condition could be "free the captives and kill the jailers and the guard captain." So you have the same exact quest but now there is a twist. Not only do you have to free the captives, you have a boss fight with the guard captain and the jailers. Finish the mission and fulfill the bonus condition and you get a bonus reward.
Or say you're a healer. Maybe your solo mission would be heal the captives in a certain amount of time.
Anyway, those are just examples. But it's absolutely possible to gear the game for both types of game play.
I support the idea for solo and group content. My point was you were using an example that isn't feasible, to apply single-player concepts into a multi-player environment.
For example, the Rogue mission example you offer. Its a nice idea, but the actual implementation requires a lot of work, especially if the game engine isn't designed to support that style of play. And even then, once you reach the point where it is feasible, you have to have an underlying system to keep feeding you those missions. For example, WoW has a few missions like that as part of Rogue class quests. Not as flashed as you mention, but about as well as can be done with the WoW engine as far as I can tell.
However, the question that comes down to it then, is how do you keep missions like that coming? If you generate several missions like that, then you're taking precious development time that is only going to affect 1/8th of the player base, instead of something that is accessible to everyone. As a player, you may appreciate the effort, but as a developer it economical in any way shape or form. It sucks to say that, as it sounds like a cop out, but its the reality of the situation.
Of course, you can implement some sort of dynamic missions system, ala Dungeons and Dragons Online or City of Heroes, but even that has its downsides. Whereas going over the same content over and over again is dull and boring (such as you might in WoW) its also dull and boring over time to go over the same pre-generated content. You begin to see the patterns, or see the same configuration/puzzles over and over again. You could combine both systems, but again, its another thing that currently isn't a realistic option.
The answer to the problem is as it is now. If you care enough about dynamic content that you're willing to accept the downsides, then you play a game that offers that. Otherwise you look for another game. If you don't care enough about either system, you just try out both types till you find a game that matches other requirements.
And, at the end of the day, you're suggestion has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with variety. What is difficulty about infiltrating a castle to steal a gemstone, or storming it with a group? If you don't take the route of scaling the mobs to the player, then what other option do you have? The Rogue mission you might be able to offer a time-frame in which to do it, but in a dynamic mission system that leaves a lot up to chance and not skill, and in a static mission that only offers a challenge the first time through, and only if a fairly significant chunk of development time was devoted to that one special subset.
For the group mission, maybe you could have a time limit combined with multiple entry paths requiring different skills to get around. But what does that offer? You can't make something so difficult that it is impossible, and you can't make something so difficulty that it requires a specific set of skills to get by, because you can't always assume those skills are available. Which is one of the significant differences between singler player and multi player balancing. Likewise, say you find it too difficult, but you come back in a few levels and just power through it. What have you gained? Not much. If you scale the encounters inside the castle to the player level, then you have to question what is the worth in putting in the other stuff.
Just out of pure curiousity, can you elaborate? Its one thing to state "choose to take the easy way out and bump the mobs damage" but I'd like to see some sort of concrete example of how you could improve difficulty. Especially with your single-player comment, as the difference between scaling a game around one player versus any number of players is significantly different.
Well, you can choose the easier way out and just scale the content. Say for example if it's only 1 player, the mob has 100% HP and does 100% damage. 2 players the mob has 200% HP and does 150% damage and so on and so forth. Or maybe 1 player and two mobs per group spawn. Two players and three mobs spawn... It's already been done in CoH and DDO so if you want, look to those games to see how they did it. CoH has a free trial and DDO is F2P.
The harder part would be designing different content for solo and group play. But here's an idea. Say, for example, you're a solo rogue. A possible mission for you would be to infiltrate a castle and steal a gemstone. The condition would be "No guards alerted for a bonus." So you have a mission where you have to be stealthy and avoid the guards (Ever play Splinter Cell? Sort of like that). So you manage to avoid the guards and reach the room with the gemstone but there is a puzzle that you have to solve before you can steal it. You solve the puzzle, finish the mission and if you fulfill the bonus condition, you get a bonus reward.
A group version of this would be to storm the castle and steal the gemstone and a bonus condition could be "free the captives and kill the jailers and the guard captain." So you have the same exact quest but now there is a twist. Not only do you have to free the captives, you have a boss fight with the guard captain and the jailers. Finish the mission and fulfill the bonus condition and you get a bonus reward.
Or say you're a healer. Maybe your solo mission would be heal the captives in a certain amount of time.
Anyway, those are just examples. But it's absolutely possible to gear the game for both types of game play.
I support the idea for solo and group content. My point was you were using an example that isn't feasible, to apply single-player concepts into a multi-player environment.
For example, the Rogue mission example you offer. Its a nice idea, but the actual implementation requires a lot of work, especially if the game engine isn't designed to support that style of play. And even then, once you reach the point where it is feasible, you have to have an underlying system to keep feeding you those missions. For example, WoW has a few missions like that as part of Rogue class quests. Not as flashed as you mention, but about as well as can be done with the WoW engine as far as I can tell.
However, the question that comes down to it then, is how do you keep missions like that coming? If you generate several missions like that, then you're taking precious development time that is only going to affect 1/8th of the player base, instead of something that is accessible to everyone. As a player, you may appreciate the effort, but as a developer it economical in any way shape or form. It sucks to say that, as it sounds like a cop out, but its the reality of the situation.
Of course, you can implement some sort of dynamic missions system, ala Dungeons and Dragons Online or City of Heroes, but even that has its downsides. Whereas going over the same content over and over again is dull and boring (such as you might in WoW) its also dull and boring over time to go over the same pre-generated content. You begin to see the patterns, or see the same configuration/puzzles over and over again. You could combine both systems, but again, its another thing that currently isn't a realistic option.
The answer to the problem is as it is now. If you care enough about dynamic content that you're willing to accept the downsides, then you play a game that offers that. Otherwise you look for another game. If you don't care enough about either system, you just try out both types till you find a game that matches other requirements.
And, at the end of the day, you're suggestion has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with variety. What is difficulty about infiltrating a castle to steal a gemstone, or storming it with a group? If you don't take the route of scaling the mobs to the player, then what other option do you have? The Rogue mission you might be able to offer a time-frame in which to do it, but in a dynamic mission system that leaves a lot up to chance and not skill, and in a static mission that only offers a challenge the first time through, and only if a fairly significant chunk of development time was devoted to that one special subset.
For the group mission, maybe you could have a time limit combined with multiple entry paths requiring different skills to get around. But what does that offer? You can't make something so difficult that it is impossible, and you can't make something so difficulty that it requires a specific set of skills to get by, because you can't always assume those skills are available. Which is one of the significant differences between singler player and multi player balancing. Likewise, say you find it too difficult, but you come back in a few levels and just power through it. What have you gained? Not much. If you scale the encounters inside the castle to the player level, then you have to question what is the worth in putting in the other stuff.
Bookmark this post and we'll come back to it once SWTOR comes out. It's going to have custom build content for all player classes and there are supposed to be 8 of them.
Right now it's all speculation. You're talking about the limitations of WoW, which is running on an engine that probably started it's life before Blizzard announced WoW in 2001.
Technology is always advancing. Besides which, none of the current MMOs are designed this way so we'll see how TOR handles this. It's all about talking a personalized approach towards different classes.
It isn't a technological limitation. Everything you described is possible. The problem is the other aspects of it. At the end of the day a game has to be profitable, and be released before the development house goes under trying to get it how they want it.
Right now, its just a matter of someone finding a more efficient way of doing the job, or finding more efficient ways of doing other business so you can devote more resources (money and people) to content generation.
Of course, even when all that is done you still have to have the creativity to keep the ideas flowing. Say someone does find a way of making a castle storm mission interesting; what happens when you've played that mission 100 times?
It isn't a technological limitation. Everything you described is possible. The problem is the other aspects of it. At the end of the day a game has to be profitable, and be released before the development house goes under trying to get it how they want it.
Right now, its just a matter of someone finding a more efficient way of doing the job, or finding more efficient ways of doing other business so you can devote more resources (money and people) to content generation.
Of course, even when all that is done you still have to have the creativity to keep the ideas flowing. Say someone does find a way of making a castle storm mission interesting; what happens when you've played that mission 100 times?
I don't know, what happens when you run Kara 100 times?
Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.
Just a note on this... Neverwinter Nights isn't a MMO... at least the current incarnation isn't. Apparently one is in the works now, though.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Back when I started playing MMOs (UO/NWN/Meridian) soloing was the main aspect. So this isn't some sort of new and freakish time in MMO history.
Just a note on this... Neverwinter Nights isn't a MMO... at least the current incarnation isn't. Apparently one is in the works now, though.
I think he's talking about this
Neverwinter Nights.