For some of you naysayers.. What I discribed with the "captain" quest is IN THE game.. It was one of the starting quest the smuggler class has in the beginning.. I believe it might of been gamespot that viewed this game footage during one of their interviews.. The quest gave you a choice.. kill or not kill the captain to get off the ship.. Rich Vogel talked briefly about the "killing the captain" quest during a recent E3 interview as well, using it to explain how choices can lead to future questlines.. It was Rich Vogel that used the example of a family member either seeking revenge or rewarding you for your choice later in the game.. SO.. As I was explaining.. How do quest like this effect gameplay if everyone is making different choices? As I said.. Lets assume I killed the captain on Tues, but my friend didn't kill the captain when he played later that afternoon.. Does this mean we have a conflict of "timeline"? or is Bioware going to conviently lame excuse their way out of that problem? I would love to hear more concrete statements how Bioware is going to overcome grouping problems from the start.. WoW has similar situations, but they are a very minor part of the game.. In WoW if you want to kill the NPC's in Booty Bay to get your bloodsail admiral title, great.. but you'll do it alone if your friends or guildies are "friendly" with the Booty Bay faction.. However, like I said, this a very minor part and temporary as well.. WoW gives people the option to change rep if they so choose to.. Bioware has already stated that any choices made are PERMANENT, and can't be reversed.. Yeah.. i see problems with this storyline already.. HELL.. Even in the movies people switched factions.. Even Vader did in the end.. I'm glad Vaders alliance to the Sith wasnt' permanent or Luke would of died.. LOL .. Take note of that Bioware..
How do you know after the get through alpha and beta into release that the captains death won't have some extra game play effects? Maybe your post will be read and inspire the devs to do more with it. How do you know? And what are the super lotto numbers for this Friday night?
For some of you naysayers.. What I discribed with the "captain" quest is IN THE game.. It was one of the starting quest the smuggler class has in the beginning.. I believe it might of been gamespot that viewed this game footage during one of their interviews.. The quest gave you a choice.. kill or not kill the captain to get off the ship.. Rich Vogel talked briefly about the "killing the captain" quest during a recent E3 interview as well, using it to explain how choices can lead to future questlines.. It was Rich Vogel that used the example of a family member either seeking revenge or rewarding you for your choice later in the game.. SO.. As I was explaining.. How do quest like this effect gameplay if everyone is making different choices? As I said.. Lets assume I killed the captain on Tues, but my friend didn't kill the captain when he played later that afternoon.. Does this mean we have a conflict of "timeline"? or is Bioware going to conviently lame excuse their way out of that problem? I would love to hear more concrete statements how Bioware is going to overcome grouping problems from the start.. WoW has similar situations, but they are a very minor part of the game.. In WoW if you want to kill the NPC's in Booty Bay to get your bloodsail admiral title, great.. but you'll do it alone if your friends or guildies are "friendly" with the Booty Bay faction.. However, like I said, this a very minor part and temporary as well.. WoW gives people the option to change rep if they so choose to.. Bioware has already stated that any choices made are PERMANENT, and can't be reversed.. Yeah.. i see problems with this storyline already.. HELL.. Even in the movies people switched factions.. Even Vader did in the end.. I'm glad Vaders alliance to the Sith wasnt' permanent or Luke would of died.. LOL .. Take note of that Bioware..
How do you know after the get through alpha and beta into release that the captains death won't have some extra game play effects? Maybe your post will be read and inspire the devs to do more with it. How do you know? And what are the super lotto numbers for this Friday night?
While he's playing fortune teller I would like to know the lotto picks for Florida. It shouldn't be to hard for him since he's as likely being right on picking lottery picks as he is making predictions about a game that isn't even in Beta yet.
Personally I'm glad that your choices have consequences. I hate games that allow people to constantly flip flop with factions. It is so unrealistic.Yes Vader changed factions a whole two times in his life. I've known players that do it more than that on a weekend. Make up your mind already.
It seems to me that the naysayers in this forum are stating that SWTOR isn't an MMORPG for two reasons;
A) It has a predifined story and you don't get to make your own.
It won't be massive or have the features of a regular MMORPG
Ok so I'll address A first. By this definition all of these other games are not MMOs as well; WoW, Lotro, Vangard, EQ2, etc because each of them has predefined stories and quests. You don't get to make up your own stories or quests so therefor, by your definition, they are not MMORPGs. In fact I could add just about every current MMORPG to that list because the quests are all written for you.
Now I will asnwer B. Well, hell I don't really have to. The devs have stated multiple times that this game will have raiding, PvP, crafting, group quests,etc. so it will definitely have the features of an MMO.
If you ask me these naysayers do not know what they are talking about. For the most part they are grasping at straws to level up their forum trolling experience.
It seems to me that the naysayers in this forum are stating that SWTOR isn't an MMORPG for two reasons; A) It has a predifined story and you don't get to make your own. It won't be massive or have the features of a regular MMORPG
Ok so I'll address A first. By this definition all of these other games are not MMOs as well; WoW, Lotro, Vangard, EQ2, etc because each of them has predefined stories and quests. You don't get to make up your own stories or quests so therefor, by your definition, they are not MMORPGs. In fact I could add just about every current MMORPG to that list because the quests are all written for you. Now I will asnwer B. Well, hell I don't really have to. The devs have stated multiple times that this game will have raiding, PvP, crafting, group quests,etc. so it will definitely have the features of an MMO.
If you ask me these naysayers do not know what they are talking about. For the most part they are grasping at straws to level up their forum trolling experience.
It's really simple , people just want to know if this game will have a big open world containing a "Massive" amoune of people concurrently or will this be an instance based game which focus on small groups going into instancing and the outside is mainly for seeing people in the city.
There's a huge difference between the two and what you get from them so far is that the game is going to be "Story Based" and we'll have "Full voiced acting" , ye well we got the point.. tell us more information that really matters .
World of Warcraft is a proof that MMORPG quality should affect schedule/budget and not the other way around.
So this forum woks like this then. If you dont like how TOR sounds you cant speculate. But if you praise all the hype then you can speculate on how this game is going to be great and breathe of life back into the genre? I see fans assuming how the game will be more than the haters. I guess this is a mmo
It's a forum, in forums people trash ideas they don't like. Some people tag along with ideas they do like, but far more people trash than tag along. Forums are like that - why would you expect anything different?
Isn't it great to know that the OP here has used his infinite wisdom to define what an MMO is for the rest of us. Now it's time for us all to fall in line!
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
Nice write up. The best MMO's i've played were early Ultima Online and early SWG.
You could shape your characters skills into anything you wanted.
In both games, you had the freedom to setup player run towns/cities. These areas had history and lore behind them. One town might have good crafters, another a nice tavern or meeting location. Players could hold player run events. Auctions, homemade quests, set up battles with neighboring towns etc. The community was able to add its own content when the developers content went dry.
Crafting
Player made items were it !! You didnt have all this fancy loot. Crafters had meaning and a place in the game.
When I worked at the Brit Forge in UO, people knew my name, they trusted me to repairs their weapons and armor. I was able to make a name for myself. Hell , I returned to UO after a few yrs and people still stopped to ask me if I was the same smith that made them armor all those yrs ago.
In SWG I had one of the best Weapon Shops on the server. People would ask for my ICQ to put in orders. You knew which crafters had the best shop and wares.
I never felt important as a crafter after those 2 experiences. Dont forget you could make furniture, decor, clothing, armor, weapons, food, musical instruments and so on.
PVP
In SWG, before Jedi, there was always battles between Anchorhead and Bestine (Rebels vs the Empire) We loved the raids. You would also have Empire player run cities invade Rebel player run cities.
UO: Hell, it was a free for all. You never knew if the person you ran into was friend or foe. It was so exciting. Guilds were vital to survival. One of the best skill based PVP games. Not gear based.
PVE:
It wasn't as immersive as the MMO's of today. You didnt have quests to grind out levels or instanced raids, but I never seemed to care. You would do the PVE to get thing for your crafter or minor gear that could help. Not uber loot, but decent enough to make it interesting. The gear wouldnt put a crafter out of business.
These 2 games allowed the community to be the focus of the online world. I haven't felt that same community interaction in most of the MMO's i've tried since. This game looks great as an RPG, but I have major doubts it will truly be world where we will have a solid ingame community. I just don't see it happening.
I play MMO's to interact with other people. Whether they want to be evil or good in the game, it doesnt matter. I like the versatility. But if everyone is in instances or grinding levels or doing the same quests...... then I don't see much time for community interaction and building. I've noticed that in alot of MMO's.
In LOTRO, my guild friends were the only people I needed to know or interact with. Heck there could have been just the 20 of us on the server and I wouldnt have noticed one bit. The games really feel empty when all the content is hand fed to you. Go from point A to point B. Kill this guy , deliver this item etc. Its not free and open for us to shape.
I'm back playing Ultima Online again. It is great visiting the old player towns that still exist and seeing players I met over 10 yrs ago still playing. We talk old times and they help me catch up on the changes. Very friendly and helpful community, its always been.
To me, all the above makes me want to play an MMO. Now if you have never experienced UO of early SWG, then you might have a different view. Maybe you like quest / level grinding. Hey, maybe thats what you like and thats fine with me. But just maybe, a free and open game would really enhance your online gaming experience, like it did for me.
I hope you all enjoy this game but its probably not gonna be my cup of tea. I'll keep an eye on things and keep an open mind, but I have my doubts as well.
Hmm... maybe it is, maybe it isn't. While I would much prefer a skill based sandbox dynamic world where I create my own destiny along with thousands of other people, I'm not going to dismiss everything else or make loud demands. Life is too short for that. If TOR turns out to be some singleplayer MMO wannabe hybrid, so be it. What matters to me - is it fun? As long as something is fun, I'll play it no matter what the genre.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Thank you for the obviously well thought-out and highly informed post.
Originally posted by Wighty
It's like the latest batch of MMO's are like a f'n Kevin Costner movie... <think Waterworld, the Postman, etc> they cost a FORTUNE, they sound like they may be good but then you just realized you sat around for 3 hours of WTF...
i think this game will be more like guildwars, but set in starwars era, with central 'hubs' where you can meet people, and the rest is run on your own computer in single player/group mode, not really an MMO, but not entirely a single player game. as such its probably correct that its being aimed at casual gamers, and probably explains why crafting etc and player housing arent included, hopefully they'll fix this. but im not going to hold my breath, as there are quite a few things about this game so far that im less than happy about.
Personnally I can"t wait for this game. In my view the KOTOR series have been the best Star wars games of all time! So whether this one is a true MMO or a KOTOR3+Internet mode I'll get it as soon as it comes out
Comments
How do you know after the get through alpha and beta into release that the captains death won't have some extra game play effects? Maybe your post will be read and inspire the devs to do more with it. How do you know? And what are the super lotto numbers for this Friday night?
How do you know after the get through alpha and beta into release that the captains death won't have some extra game play effects? Maybe your post will be read and inspire the devs to do more with it. How do you know? And what are the super lotto numbers for this Friday night?
While he's playing fortune teller I would like to know the lotto picks for Florida. It shouldn't be to hard for him since he's as likely being right on picking lottery picks as he is making predictions about a game that isn't even in Beta yet.
Personally I'm glad that your choices have consequences. I hate games that allow people to constantly flip flop with factions. It is so unrealistic.Yes Vader changed factions a whole two times in his life. I've known players that do it more than that on a weekend. Make up your mind already.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
It seems to me that the naysayers in this forum are stating that SWTOR isn't an MMORPG for two reasons;
A) It has a predifined story and you don't get to make your own.
Ok so I'll address A first. By this definition all of these other games are not MMOs as well; WoW, Lotro, Vangard, EQ2, etc because each of them has predefined stories and quests. You don't get to make up your own stories or quests so therefor, by your definition, they are not MMORPGs. In fact I could add just about every current MMORPG to that list because the quests are all written for you.
Now I will asnwer B. Well, hell I don't really have to. The devs have stated multiple times that this game will have raiding, PvP, crafting, group quests,etc. so it will definitely have the features of an MMO.
If you ask me these naysayers do not know what they are talking about. For the most part they are grasping at straws to level up their forum trolling experience.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
It's really simple , people just want to know if this game will have a big open world containing a "Massive" amoune of people concurrently or will this be an instance based game which focus on small groups going into instancing and the outside is mainly for seeing people in the city.
There's a huge difference between the two and what you get from them so far is that the game is going to be "Story Based" and we'll have "Full voiced acting" , ye well we got the point.. tell us more information that really matters .
World of Warcraft is a proof that MMORPG quality should affect schedule/budget and not the other way around.
You know, masterbating is more productive than speculating. At least you get a result.
It's a forum, in forums people trash ideas they don't like. Some people tag along with ideas they do like, but far more people trash than tag along. Forums are like that - why would you expect anything different?
I'll do it too.
A MMORPG is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. To understand what this means, we need to understand what a RPG is:
A RPG is a game that allows and encourages a player to create and define a character's story within a game's environment.
So a MMORPG must be a game that allows and encourages players to tell their character's story to other players within a game's environment. Ask yourself what's the point of playing with other human beings if you're not going to interact with them? If this is the case then you could easily replace other players with NPCs and get the same results... So make an RPG and save your customers a monthly sub.
Also, understand that there is more than one story being told at any given time in a MMORPG - Your own story (as an individual), a group story (groups, friends, guilds, towns, factions, etc.), and the full game environments story (the total shared history of all the players in the games environment)
The problem with the newer MMORPGs is that they are quickly removing the elements that allow and encourage players to have and make their characters unique to the point that another player will be interested.
Think about this: if every player is funneled thru the same quests and they share the exact same story how will you be able to find somebody that will want to hear your story when the story is far too common? So the question becomes: will SW:TORs class story arcs and individual stories be enough to encourage other players to tell or listen to each others stories? Will the game have enough RPG toys and tools to allow us to make our characters unique enough that we can generate a public interest?
The OP seems to have his doubts about it and to be honest so do I.
Nice write up. The best MMO's i've played were early Ultima Online and early SWG.
You could shape your characters skills into anything you wanted.
SWG example: Smuggler / Pistoleer / Weaponsmith
Ultima Online : Swords / Mining / Blacksmith / Magery / Tactics / Healing / Anatomry
The diversity was 2nd to none.
Housing
In both games, you had the freedom to setup player run towns/cities. These areas had history and lore behind them. One town might have good crafters, another a nice tavern or meeting location. Players could hold player run events. Auctions, homemade quests, set up battles with neighboring towns etc. The community was able to add its own content when the developers content went dry.
Crafting
Player made items were it !! You didnt have all this fancy loot. Crafters had meaning and a place in the game.
When I worked at the Brit Forge in UO, people knew my name, they trusted me to repairs their weapons and armor. I was able to make a name for myself. Hell , I returned to UO after a few yrs and people still stopped to ask me if I was the same smith that made them armor all those yrs ago.
In SWG I had one of the best Weapon Shops on the server. People would ask for my ICQ to put in orders. You knew which crafters had the best shop and wares.
I never felt important as a crafter after those 2 experiences. Dont forget you could make furniture, decor, clothing, armor, weapons, food, musical instruments and so on.
PVP
In SWG, before Jedi, there was always battles between Anchorhead and Bestine (Rebels vs the Empire) We loved the raids. You would also have Empire player run cities invade Rebel player run cities.
UO: Hell, it was a free for all. You never knew if the person you ran into was friend or foe. It was so exciting. Guilds were vital to survival. One of the best skill based PVP games. Not gear based.
PVE:
It wasn't as immersive as the MMO's of today. You didnt have quests to grind out levels or instanced raids, but I never seemed to care. You would do the PVE to get thing for your crafter or minor gear that could help. Not uber loot, but decent enough to make it interesting. The gear wouldnt put a crafter out of business.
These 2 games allowed the community to be the focus of the online world. I haven't felt that same community interaction in most of the MMO's i've tried since. This game looks great as an RPG, but I have major doubts it will truly be world where we will have a solid ingame community. I just don't see it happening.
I play MMO's to interact with other people. Whether they want to be evil or good in the game, it doesnt matter. I like the versatility. But if everyone is in instances or grinding levels or doing the same quests...... then I don't see much time for community interaction and building. I've noticed that in alot of MMO's.
In LOTRO, my guild friends were the only people I needed to know or interact with. Heck there could have been just the 20 of us on the server and I wouldnt have noticed one bit. The games really feel empty when all the content is hand fed to you. Go from point A to point B. Kill this guy , deliver this item etc. Its not free and open for us to shape.
I'm back playing Ultima Online again. It is great visiting the old player towns that still exist and seeing players I met over 10 yrs ago still playing. We talk old times and they help me catch up on the changes. Very friendly and helpful community, its always been.
To me, all the above makes me want to play an MMO. Now if you have never experienced UO of early SWG, then you might have a different view. Maybe you like quest / level grinding. Hey, maybe thats what you like and thats fine with me. But just maybe, a free and open game would really enhance your online gaming experience, like it did for me.
I hope you all enjoy this game but its probably not gonna be my cup of tea. I'll keep an eye on things and keep an open mind, but I have my doubts as well.
Cheers.
"This isn't a true MMO game"
Hmm... maybe it is, maybe it isn't. While I would much prefer a skill based sandbox dynamic world where I create my own destiny along with thousands of other people, I'm not going to dismiss everything else or make loud demands. Life is too short for that. If TOR turns out to be some singleplayer MMO wannabe hybrid, so be it. What matters to me - is it fun? As long as something is fun, I'll play it no matter what the genre.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Original Poster:
Thank you for the obviously well thought-out and highly informed post.
Originally posted by Wighty
It's like the latest batch of MMO's are like a f'n Kevin Costner movie... <think Waterworld, the Postman, etc> they cost a FORTUNE, they sound like they may be good but then you just realized you sat around for 3 hours of WTF...
i think this game will be more like guildwars, but set in starwars era, with central 'hubs' where you can meet people, and the rest is run on your own computer in single player/group mode, not really an MMO, but not entirely a single player game. as such its probably correct that its being aimed at casual gamers, and probably explains why crafting etc and player housing arent included, hopefully they'll fix this. but im not going to hold my breath, as there are quite a few things about this game so far that im less than happy about.
Personnally I can"t wait for this game. In my view the KOTOR series have been the best Star wars games of all time! So whether this one is a true MMO or a KOTOR3+Internet mode I'll get it as soon as it comes out
I hope it is a true MMO though (obviously)...