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Most flawed reasoning Solo advocates use to describe grouping.
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
IMO, this is an argument I see constantly from Solo advocates when they talk about groupers or "forced grouping".
It goes liike this:
You say you like to group. Well, I'm going to LET you group. In other words, you can click on other players, and then a "group dialog" window will pop up. There will be a little window that says "group".
There, you are grouped. Since you like to group, you will be happy now, because you're in a "group".
I can now change all the rules of the entire game however I want to, but as long as I give you a little window that says "group" you should be happy, because you are grouped.
If you are not happy with this, then I'm going to conclude that really, you don't like grouping.
I should then be able to make grouping entirely pointless, with even less xp than solo play, with no special loot bonuses, with no REAL challenge for groups because all the dungeons scale, and you should be happy.
Why will you be happy with this game, even though the rules have destroyed all the reasons you actually like grouping?
Because I gave you a little window that says "group". That's all you need. If you're not satisfied with that, then really, you don't like grouping, you just want to level faster or show off your loot to solo players.
Uh no, actually I want a good grouping game, and a little window that says "group" doesn't really do that. There actaully needs to be soome GAME MECHANICS that make grouping fun, BESIDES a little window that says "group" on it.
In fact, I will take the GAME MECHANICS over the little window that says "group" on it. You can get rid fo that window altogether if you want, but design a good team based game with challenges that cannot be avoided, challenges that don't scale, and real team work required to overcome those challenges.
Comments
And then the game will fail because nobody wants to play it, the servers will shut down, and you'll be back to whining about how you want people to be forced to group with you. Yes, we get it. How many times do you plan on making this same argument? Do you think you're changing things? Do you think you're changing the minds of those who have lives and can't dedicate 4 hours a night to raiding? What, exactly, is your point?
I think the whole discussion between anti and pro grouping people is unfair anyway. The pro groupers are always in superior numbers.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Why another thread when there are already half a dozen on the exact same topic?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
On that point, I'm with you. I'll never bother grouping until they make it worth my while.
You are absolutely right just like how FFXI was shut down and no one plays it any more..
Oh wait it still has 500k subs?
What?
Huh?
Oh you are horribly wrong I see...
I think the best Compromise to this issue is to make some things in game only accomplishable by soloing, and other things only accomplishable by grouping. I don't know if that is necessarily the best solution, but it is the best compromise.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
That is not really a response to my post.
That is about the MMORPG and video game industry, and what you think will make more profits, etc., etc.
I would appreciate it if instead of hijacking the thread to talk about the video game industry profits, you would respond to the post, and make a statement about grouping, and what in your opinion makes a good grouping game, and what does not.
Do you agree with my post or not, regardless of your statement about MMORPG profit analysis?
So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That is not really a response to my post.
That is about the MMORPG and video game industry, and what you think will make more profits, etc., etc.
I would appreciate it if instead of hijacking the thread to talk about the video game industry profits, you would respond to the post, and make a statement about grouping, and what in your opinion makes a good grouping game, and what does not.
Do you agree with my post or not, regardless of your statement about MMORPG profit analysis?
Profit analysis will decide the type of grouping that ends up in a game. It's completely relevant. Do you cry thread hijacking everyone points out the flaws in your arguments?
I think that's a fair compromise.
My biggest complaint is when solo advocates say, it doesn't affect me if they make the dungeon scale, so that they can solo it.
Of course it does affect me. Why in the world would I take all the time and trouble to group for something that I can just solo? The fun of grouping is diminished, because the challenge is removed. Sure, I might group to do it, but that's a crappy group game, because it was pointless to group. There was no REASON to group, since you can just solo it.
So, stop with the argument that if you can do something BOTH ways, group and solo, that's good for grouping. It's not. That's good for soloing, but removes the challenge from grouping and makes it pointless.
However, if you want to do 50/50 and make the game half group required, and half solo required OK, fine with me.
The trick is, you cannot avoid EITEHR part of the game. So, to get to level 20 from level 19, you MUST do X solo content, AND X group content.
You can't just solo and skip the group content, you can't just group and skip the solo content. Indeed, I would find that to be fair. I would grimace at doing the solo content, and the solo players would grimace at doing the group content, but at least it would be REAL worthwhile and challenging group content that cannot be avoided.
Im sorry, Im not seeing this at all. But here we go.
Senraio 1
Quest Kill X monster
solo - guy 10 mins
2X Guys - 5 mins
3X guys - 3 mins
4X guys 1 min
So, grouping benifits every games quest chain pretty much as there almost all go kill X number, so yea, saying grouping has no benifits is BS as you can complete quests much faster, which gives you much more xp, which lvls you quicker.
Scenario 2
Instances,
Solo guy - can't do jack until his so powerful the gear is worth nothing, cannot complete the quests in the instance which give uber gear.
Group Guys - clean instance, get decent money, gear and xp.
Scenario 3
Hunting or mob grinding
solo guy - ganked by any player in the area
group guys - protect and defend each otehr and do not get pked unless by someone much higher lvl
So right there, every mmo. Even the casual pve ones have better benifits of being in groups. The people complaining about these so called solo mmo's are just blind.
Groups protect ect each other, get things done faster and can do harder challenges. AND thats every mmo that is not pvp based. Stop your complaining and you diagnosis of the genre as its poor, and your not proving anything. Just stop. No game hinders grouping, point 1 out and tell me why (only pve games as pvp are ment to be solo imo).
The scenarios I provided are mmo wide, welcome to the real world.
Enjoy : )
So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.
Or we could have two ways to accomplish the same thing? Those who want the fun of grouping will have a way to do it, as will those who prefer/need to solo.
That is not really a response to my post.
That is about the MMORPG and video game industry, and what you think will make more profits, etc., etc.
I would appreciate it if instead of hijacking the thread to talk about the video game industry profits, you would respond to the post, and make a statement about grouping, and what in your opinion makes a good grouping game, and what does not.
Do you agree with my post or not, regardless of your statement about MMORPG profit analysis?
Profit analysis will decide the type of grouping that ends up in a game. It's completely relevant. Do you cry thread hijacking everyone points out the flaws in your arguments?
It's not a "flaw" in the argument, it is simply off topic.
The argument is waht makes a GOOD grouping game. It is irrelevant if this game makes a profit or not.
If you don't wish to join in the discussion, then don't.
If you wish to join in the discussion, then the question is, what makes a GOOD grouping game? Do you agree with the OP or not, which has nothing to do with profits?
You are absolutely right just like how FFXI was shut down and no one plays it any more..
Oh wait it still has 500k subs?
What?
Huh?
Oh you are horribly wrong I see...
The vast majority of subscribers are Easterners. FFXI was never very popular in the West and we ARE talking about us, not them. Two very different and seperate markets.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
So far, from the posts we have seen from advocates of optional solo play, I'd say almost every one of them would be 100% for that. It's the forced grouping crowd that would need to bend a bit to make that happen though.
Or we could have two ways to accomplish the same thing? Those who want the fun of grouping will have a way to do it, as will those who prefer/need to solo.
Making group content soloable destroys the group content.
Making group content soloable, adds solo content.
So let's see, you've destroyed group content, and added solo content, and solo players are ok with that. Gee, wonder why?
This suggestion is acceptable to me, adding content that can only be soloed, and content that can only be grouped, as long as doing both of those is required and cannot be avoided. .
We make FORCED solo content, and FORCED group content.
To make progress, you MUST solo dungeon A, and go through dungeon B with a group.
I'm ok with that, because it does nto destroy the group content.
90% of what makes a good grouping game is the player base.
Forced grouping does nothing for me. 4 hours in a raid being yelled at to mindlessly fullfill your little role just isn't my definition of fun.
Grouping with friends and grinding through random quests is fun. Grouping up to help noobs is fun. Grouping cuz i'm in the mood is fun.
You are absolutely right just like how FFXI was shut down and no one plays it any more..
Oh wait it still has 500k subs?
What?
Huh?
Oh you are horribly wrong I see...
The vast majority of subscribers are Easterners. FFXI was never very popular in the West and we ARE talking about us, not them. Two very different and seperate markets.
Where'd you get those statistics?
I've NEVER EVER EVER seen anyone justify that FFXI wasn't that popular in the west.
Almost ALL the people I played with were from the US, and the servers they have are NOT organized by region.
I used to play with Japanese, French, and German players too but they were much MUCH more rare. On both the servers I played on.
Both BEFORE and AFTER they allowed transfers and you to pick the region.
(At release FFXI didn't let you pick which server you started on, allowing for a truely random make up of a world community.)
Edit: I also played the game with 5 IRL friends of mine, and even made a few friends in the process, one who lived 50 minutes away from where I live and now we're the best of friends IRL too. His wife and he come over to my place and all four of us watch movies and eat dinner and play video games together.
How many times (and in how many threads) am I going to have to repeat this before it sinks in?
PEOPLE THAT GROUP ADVANCE 30% FASTER THAN THOSE THAT SOLO!!!!!
Yes, you make less XP per kill, but you kill more mobs, not to mention bigger mobs. This not only makes up the difference but actually exceeds the XP rewards of solo play.
DO THE FUCKING MATH!!!!
You're an admitted solo advocate. You've just stated, yet again, that the entire game should be all solo content, and you can have a little "group window" if you want, and that shoujdl be fun.
Just having a little group window, as I stated in the OP, does not make grouping fun for me, and other people that enjoyed games like EQ and DAoC, before expansions, or FFXI.
How many times (and in how many threads) am I going to have to repeat this before it sinks in?
PEOPLE THAT GROUP ADVANCE 30% FASTER THAN THOSE THAT SOLO!!!!!
Yes, you make less XP per kill, but you kill more mobs, not to mention bigger mobs. This not only makes up the difference but actually exceeds the XP rewards of solo play.
DO THE FUCKING MATH!!!!
The math in the leveling game in WoW says you are wrong.
Do the math again. And do the Fucking Math, you're still wrong.
AND don't forget to add in travel time, discussion of what the group should do, waiiting for bio breaks, someone to get a soda or check on the baby, time outs, waiting for someone to log back on, etc.
You're an admitted solo advocate. You've just stated, yet again, that the entire game should be all solo content, and you can have a little "group window" if you want, and that shoujdl be fun.
Just having a little group window, as I stated in the OP, does not make grouping fun for me, and other people that enjoyed games like EQ and DAoC, before expansions, or FFXI.
I'm not a solo advocate. I'm a "play however the hell you want" advocate. I'm a "group together and have fun" advocate. I'm an advocate of the reality of the mmo industry.
Definitely the best way to go in my opinion as well. It won't shut up the zealots on either side, but you can't please everyone and offering a type of middleground such as that would appease most.
You'll still have goofballs that will bitch about not being able to solo dungeon x to get their purty item y and on the other side you'll still have wackos balk the game is too solo oriented and say it should be group oriented for anything and everything, but for the rest of us that would be pretty cool...heh
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The way to balance the two was best done by DAoC.
Almost all of the mission quests (the ones where you had to do them for your class or whatever) were soloable.
In fact you COULD solo to 50, but it wasn't nearly as time effective as grouping.
Grouping should be better than soloing, just because otherwise you won't have anyone grouping at all.
Soloing should be possible anywhere if you have enough "personal" skill. What I mean is that if you can manage to only pull one mob and fight it without linking anything you should be able to kill that mob, atleast if it is of your level, even if you are a healer.
A game should be balanced to where most offensive and defensive classes can kill things of equal level without too much difficulty. Tanks and healers than can DPS should be able to kill things slightly higher level than them, maybe one level above without diffculty. (However it would be slower obviously)
How many times (and in how many threads) am I going to have to repeat this before it sinks in?
PEOPLE THAT GROUP ADVANCE 30% FASTER THAN THOSE THAT SOLO!!!!!
Yes, you make less XP per kill, but you kill more mobs, not to mention bigger mobs. This not only makes up the difference but actually exceeds the XP rewards of solo play.
DO THE FUCKING MATH!!!!
The math in the leveling game in WoW says you are wrong.
Do the math again. And do the Fucking Math, you're still wrong.
AND don't forget to add in travel time, discussion of what the group should do, waiiting for bio breaks, someone to get a soda or check on the baby, time outs, waiting for someone to log back on, etc.
I've always leveled faster even in extremely solo friendly games like WoW and LotR when grouping for things that are actually solo content. Mainly because you can kill things so much quicker, even less down time, classes having methods for quicker travel/ports, not trying to tag/killsteal mobs from each other, etc. It just makes completing quests insanely quick so the amount I lose from mob kill xp (which any more in mmos is a joke anyways) is more than covered by the speed at which grouping allows me to complete quests.
The one drawback for me for grouping like this is what you can lose from potential loot drops not a hit on my xp earning potential. That's what I've experienced anyways.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
How many times (and in how many threads) am I going to have to repeat this before it sinks in?
PEOPLE THAT GROUP ADVANCE 30% FASTER THAN THOSE THAT SOLO!!!!!
Yes, you make less XP per kill, but you kill more mobs, not to mention bigger mobs. This not only makes up the difference but actually exceeds the XP rewards of solo play.
DO THE FUCKING MATH!!!!
The math in the leveling game in WoW says you are wrong.
Do the math again. And do the Fucking Math, you're still wrong.
AND don't forget to add in travel time, discussion of what the group should do, waiiting for bio breaks, someone to get a soda or check on the baby, time outs, waiting for someone to log back on, etc.
So rather than move to an MMO that works the way MMOs have always worked, you just want to rebuild WoW.
BTW, you're dead wrong. In recent times people have taken to speedrunning WoW's level progression and most have gotten there by insane party sizes. The first person to get from level one to 60 in 115 hours did so by forming a monster powerleveling group of 40 people.
Downtime due to RL interuptions is not something that devs can do anything about and are completely irrelevant to this discussion.