Extra Credit for Play Style Choices?

Cephus404 · July 2009

I just spent a half-an-hour on a team that took about 45 minutes to set up, 45-minutes that we just sat around and waited to find members, waited until those members ran all the way over to us, etc. That's 45-minutes utterly wasted. Had I just played solo, while I couldn't have killed the mobs that we were killing, I could have made as much or more XP during that 75-minute period, plus gotten all the loot and probably made more money off of it.

What I don't get are the pro-groupers who think they ought to be "compensated" for taking 45 minutes to set up a team. We don't compensate people who have to run around and get buffed, do we? We don't compensate people who have to get weapons, armor, ammo, healing stuff, etc. Those are parts of the game, they're a waste of time, but they are required to actually play. So why should we compensate groupers who have to spend all afternoon trying to find a team? Should they get extra XP for sitting around, or should they get it only for actually playing the game?

It makes no sense to me whatsoever that they should get anything for doing something that they *CHOOSE* to do, but otherwise generates no reward.

Cephus404 · July 2009

I guess even the pro-groupers can't find anything to disagree with in my post. Go figure.

Unknown · July 2009

Well basically the "groupers" who advocate this are like a state that forces everyone to join a union in the US.

Its basically the same logic. They just don't beat people with baseball bats to make it happen.

The arguments are essentially the same and it will never get resolved. Some people want to force everyone to act their way for their benefit. Some people hate that, such as myself. Its a social thing.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Except some of these pro-groupers want to beat everyone else with a stick or punish them to such a degree that the've got no choice but to group all the time. It's not grouping because that's what people want to do, it's grouping because you've had all your alternatives taken away. Whether that means gear that is only available to people who group, ridiculous XP and loot bonuses for people who group, increasing the difficulty to punish anyone who doesn't group, these people can't accept that the overwhelming majority of the mainstream playerbase has rejected grouping as their primary means of play so they want to do everything in their power to push people into it.

I suppose my point is that if grouping was so great, people would want to do it on their own without the bribery, the con-games and the increased danger levels. It would happen because people wanted to. I just want to see how the pro-groupers can justify all the bennies that they want without making it an absurdly obvious bribe.

Hammertime1 · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

I just spent a half-an-hour on a team that took about 45 minutes to set up, 45-minutes that we just sat around and waited to find members, waited until those members ran all the way over to us, etc. That's 45-minutes utterly wasted. Had I just played solo, while I couldn't have killed the mobs that we were killing, I could have made as much or more XP during that 75-minute period, plus gotten all the loot and probably made more money off of it.
What I don't get are the pro-groupers who think they ought to be "compensated" for taking 45 minutes to set up a team. We don't compensate people who have to run around and get buffed, do we? We don't compensate people who have to get weapons, armor, ammo, healing stuff, etc. Those are parts of the game, they're a waste of time, but they are required to actually play. So why should we compensate groupers who have to spend all afternoon trying to find a team? Should they get extra XP for sitting around, or should they get it only for actually playing the game?
It makes no sense to me whatsoever that they should get anything for doing something that they *CHOOSE* to do, but otherwise generates no reward.

So is your point that it was better to solo and get more cash, or was it worth it to you to have killed those mobs?

Greenie · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

I guess even the pro-groupers can't find anything to disagree with in my post. Go figure.

Actually, I'm not going to disagree with you but only point out something that may or may not have gotten your attention.

Did you ever think that the reason it took 45 minutes to set up a group is because games today cater to the solo playstyle so much, it's not as beneficial to group up?

I mean you even said it yourself, despite killing mobs that were higher level than you could handle solo, you could have made more xp and gold by yourself.

edited for time consistency.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by Greenie

Did you ever think that the reason it took 45 minutes to set up a group and with a member that was 45 minutes away is because games today cater to the solo playstyle so much, it's not as beneficial to group up?
I mean you even said it yourself, despite killing mobs that were higher level than you could handle solo, you could have made more xp and gold by yourself.

Actually, the reason it usually takes 45 minutes is because no one will ever take the initiative to start a team and recruit members. If you look at the LFT list, there's always tons of people who want to do the same thing, they just sit there waiting for someone else to actually do something about it.

I said that had I used that 45 minutes (in addition to the half hour we played) to actually play the game rather than sitting on a beach twiddling my thumbs, I could have made more XP and more loot myself and that's undeniably true. Sure, my XP per minute would have been lower but my overall XP would have been as high or higher. It's the inability of a lot of people to get off their butts and make teams that harms grouping, invariably when I want to group, I'm the one who has to sign people up and wait for them to run, finish whatever quest they're in, finish buying armor, etc. I spend my time waiting when I should be playing, that's not really saying a whole lot for the pro-teaming side.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by Hammertime1

So is your point that it was better to solo and get more cash, or was it worth it to you to have killed those mobs?

There are times when sure, you're after a particular piece of loot that only drops from a particular place and the only way to get that loot is to grab a team and get it. When you're just out for XP, when you're just out for loot, a team really doesn't matter and in cases like the one I described, may actually harm you.

The point is, should I have gotten some kind of benefit for sitting around 45 minutes doing nothing, as some pro-groupers have suggested, just because I was trying to group, or should I only benefit from the time that I'm actually playing the game and not have extras for times I'm forming a group, people are on bathroom breaks or whatever?

Greenie · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

Did you ever think that the reason it took 45 minutes to set up a group and with a member that was 45 minutes away is because games today cater to the solo playstyle so much, it's not as beneficial to group up?
I mean you even said it yourself, despite killing mobs that were higher level than you could handle solo, you could have made more xp and gold by yourself.

Actually, the reason it usually takes 45 minutes is because no one will ever take the initiative to start a team and recruit members. If you look at the LFT list, there's always tons of people who want to do the same thing, they just sit there waiting for someone else to actually do something about it.

I said that had I used that 45 minutes (in addition to the half hour we played) to actually play the game rather than sitting on a beach twiddling my thumbs, I could have made more XP and more loot myself and that's undeniably true. Sure, my XP per minute would have been lower but my overall XP would have been as high or higher. It's the inability of a lot of people to get off their butts and make teams that harms grouping, invariably when I want to group, I'm the one who has to sign people up and wait for them to run, finish whatever quest they're in, finish buying armor, etc. I spend my time waiting when I should be playing, that's not really saying a whole lot for the pro-teaming side.

The same problem occurs in City of Heroes,, 15 peopel scream looking for team but none of them take the time actually form the group. That's the new gamer though, they want everything handed to them even groups. You know they're not going to lead a group, they've never had to when they can just solo instead and wait for it.

Kinda backs up the whole argument hardcore groupers have about soloing hurting their aspects of the game because as the one person in the other thread stated, "people will take the easiest route to accomplish something.' It's easiest to play solo and wait for someone else. Games have enabled that and I don't foresee it changing in the future.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by Greenie

Kinda backs up the whole argument hardcore groupers have about soloing hurting their aspects of the game because as the one person in the other thread stated, "people will take the easiest route to accomplish something.' It's easiest to play solo and wait for someone else. Games have enabled that and I don't foresee it changing in the future.

What makes you think these people would be out building groups if everything was so difficult it required it? They'd still be sitting back waiting for someone else to do all the work because these people are terrified to actually be in charage. It's not like these are newbies by any means, they're all 90% of the way to max cap, many of them are actually at max cap and still sitting around waiting for someone to drag them along for the ride.

Soloing doesn't hurt grouping, apathy does.

Dewm · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

Did you ever think that the reason it took 45 minutes to set up a group and with a member that was 45 minutes away is because games today cater to the solo playstyle so much, it's not as beneficial to group up?
I mean you even said it yourself, despite killing mobs that were higher level than you could handle solo, you could have made more xp and gold by yourself.

Actually, the reason it usually takes 45 minutes is because no one will ever take the initiative to start a team and recruit members. If you look at the LFT list, there's always tons of people who want to do the same thing, they just sit there waiting for someone else to actually do something about it.

I said that had I used that 45 minutes (in addition to the half hour we played) to actually play the game rather than sitting on a beach twiddling my thumbs, I could have made more XP and more loot myself and that's undeniably true. Sure, my XP per minute would have been lower but my overall XP would have been as high or higher. It's the inability of a lot of people to get off their butts and make teams that harms grouping, invariably when I want to group, I'm the one who has to sign people up and wait for them to run, finish whatever quest they're in, finish buying armor, etc. I spend my time waiting when I should be playing, that's not really saying a whole lot for the pro-teaming side.

Why didn't you get up off your lasy @ss and make a group yourself? And on top of that what game are you playing where you couldn't go solo? the only one out there right now (that I can think of) is FFXI, and even that you can solo somewhat.

Your beating a dead horse...

I play'd FFXI for over 2 years. logged in over 1700 hours. very few times did I find myself sitting there waiting for a group with NOTHING to do.

solarine · July 2009

Originally posted by Greenie

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Greenie

Did you ever think that the reason it took 45 minutes to set up a group and with a member that was 45 minutes away is because games today cater to the solo playstyle so much, it's not as beneficial to group up?
I mean you even said it yourself, despite killing mobs that were higher level than you could handle solo, you could have made more xp and gold by yourself.

Actually, the reason it usually takes 45 minutes is because no one will ever take the initiative to start a team and recruit members. If you look at the LFT list, there's always tons of people who want to do the same thing, they just sit there waiting for someone else to actually do something about it.

I said that had I used that 45 minutes (in addition to the half hour we played) to actually play the game rather than sitting on a beach twiddling my thumbs, I could have made more XP and more loot myself and that's undeniably true. Sure, my XP per minute would have been lower but my overall XP would have been as high or higher. It's the inability of a lot of people to get off their butts and make teams that harms grouping, invariably when I want to group, I'm the one who has to sign people up and wait for them to run, finish whatever quest they're in, finish buying armor, etc. I spend my time waiting when I should be playing, that's not really saying a whole lot for the pro-teaming side.

The same problem occurs in City of Heroes,, 15 peopel scream looking for team but none of them take the time actually form the group. That's the new gamer though, they want everything handed to them even groups. You know they're not going to lead a group, they've never had to when they can just solo instead and wait for it.

Kinda backs up the whole argument hardcore groupers have about soloing hurting their aspects of the game because as the one person in the other thread stated, "people will take the easiest route to accomplish something.' It's easiest to play solo and wait for someone else. Games have enabled that and I don't foresee it changing in the future.

I am not going to disagree with you on this. I know I've recently defended the need for solo content in MMOs quite often... But I always also go for group content when real life eases up a bit It's just that I believe you can have meaningful solo content while at the same time encouraging group play.

As someone who also enjoys group content, I know why the groupers are complaining. Most of the recent games have shown an absolutely horrible attitude as far as grouping goes.

* For one thing, yeah, nearly nobody is willing to start up a group. Why? It's not exactly hard: You just create one, announce it over the appropriate channel and/or use the tools set up for it... It does not take much effort - just a few sentences here and there

* For another, nearly nobody talks in groups. The silence is just deafening and even a bit creepy, I must say.

* And then we see a lot of people leave immediately upon completing their own objectives, without giving other group members as much as a heads up.

Even a game like WAR, where players are supposed to cherish groups was alarmingly devoid of them during the time I was subscribed to it...

I think there are three factors that play into this: 1) Yes, some think they can always solo anyway andtry groups only half-heartedly. 2), Some players are not used to grouping and tend to shy away from it.... And then, 3) Some players are just fed up with the many annoyances of grouping with random strangers and just do not bother.

Though that last one does not explain all those people looking for groups and not starting them

Still, I've been saying you can solve this group-famine (doh! ) without shutting out solo content. Just make solo content harder. Make it take more effort and even more skill if possible. Make grouping the path of least resistance.

Torik · July 2009

Originally posted by solarine
Still, I've been saying you can solve this group-famine (doh! ) without shutting out solo content. Just make solo content harder. Make it take more effort and even more skill if possible. Make grouping the path of least resistance.

Well, if you made soloing require more effort and skill then grouping then you would also have to reward it more than grouping.

The problem wiht grouping is that it is just not that much fun. If grouping was more fun then more people would do it even without extra rewards.

I will often do group content even if it gets me little to no reward because I enjoy that group activity. Sometimes it is because I really like that content but mostly it is because I really like the people I am in the group with. I used to actually like raiding because I liked the content and the group dynamic that formed. I stopped raiding when the raid content got dull and stupid and the people I raided with stopped being so pleasant to be around.

Waiting 45 minutes for a group to form is worth if the actual gameplay is a ton of fun. It's like waiting at an amusement park in a long line to get to a ride. It's boring and frustrating but the fun is worth it in the end. If the ride is not fun the wait in line is not worth it and if it is the only ride available you get really annoyed.

As far as people not starting groups it is because that is the most annoying thing about forming groups. You need to spam channels, try to find the right classes and waste more time then the other members of the group. If the actual group experience is not going to be that much fun then most people will prefer to skip that frustration.

Some people believe that the only way to get people to group is to institute 'forced grouping'. I believe the opposite that the best way to get people to group is to make grouping something people want to do on their own. Grouping has to be organic or it is not going to be fun for the people involved from the beginning.

solarine · July 2009

Originally posted by Torik
Well, if you made soloing require more effort and skill then grouping then you would also have to reward it more than grouping.
....

Hmm, I don't know... I'm thinking equal rewards.

If you gave me really difficult solo experiences with rewards as good as group rewards and then made the grouping easier, I'd do both... Would solo when I did not feel like grouping or did not have the time for it (knowing I was still on the path - even if a long one - to some meaningful content that's not gimped in the rewards department and hopefully not devoid of all semblance of a story).... And group when I had the time and was in the mood for it. When soloing, I'd not really think I was being treated unfairly - because after all, I'd get equal rewards. I'd just sink more time in and play smarter, be quicker on my feet. In return I'd not have to deal with the complications of grouping. Fair exchange, to me.

Though I think you're right in saying any line of content has to be fun, first and foremost. I've seen a lot of people who kept raiding despite practically hating the process - they just enjoyed the rewards (that's why I've gone on about balancing rewards for both playstyles). I can't do that - I just stop when I realize I'm not having fun with the process anymore, and I don't care about rewards once I'm bored.

A.Dantes · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

There are times when sure, you're after a particular piece of loot that only drops from a particular place and the only way to get that loot is to grab a team and get it. When you're just out for XP, when you're just out for loot, a team really doesn't matter and in cases like the one I described, may actually harm you.
The point is, should I have gotten some kind of benefit for sitting around 45 minutes doing nothing, as some pro-groupers have suggested, just because I was trying to group, or should I only benefit from the time that I'm actually playing the game and not have extras for times I'm forming a group, people are on bathroom breaks or whatever?

Isn't this the poster child argument for exactly why grouping needs to give significantly higher rewards than soloing? No matter what the game is, its always going to take more time and effort to get multiple people working together, in the same place, at the same time.

Now if whatever game you had been playing was properly designed, the rewards for grouping should have outstripped what you could have accomplished solo. You wouldn't be coming to a forum and ranting that you could have gotten more solo in the same amount because it wouldn't be true. You wouldn't be waiting nearly an hour for a group to form because the pool of people to draw from would be larger, afterall there is more incentive for them to drop what they're doing solo and go join a group. And there wouldn't be nearly as many people LFG but unwilling to start one. You had to wait 45 minutes because you started the group and accomplished less than you could have solo, but how about the last person to join your group? That's he wasn't the one to start the group in your MMO.

Torik · July 2009

Originally posted by A.Dantes
Isn't this the poster child argument for exactly why grouping needs to give significantly higher rewards than soloing? No matter what the game is, its always going to take more time and effort to get multiple people working together, in the same place, at the same time.

It definetly took more time but only the group leader put in more effort. The others were just standing around doing nothing productive. So if you want to award effort then only the group leader should be entitled to better rewards while everyone else gets zero 'bonus points'. Even the the group leader's effort is purely social in nature and that kind of effort is not generally rewarded in MMOs on its own.

So you are essentially only rewarding the group members for being frustrated which any soloer can easily reproduce.

Jojin · July 2009

Grouping should offer better returns than solo play because is it supposed to be an interactive social game. There should be mechanics set up which reward strategic and cooperative play to an extent where people will want to be part of a group.

FFXI, because it does not have much solo content does force players to seek out groups. While this can be a pain at times, people also seem to be more considerate to others and interact much more because being an ass or disrespectful will get you cut off and you become blacklisted. This makes for a much better community versus a bunch of strangers.

More recent games which cater to solo play, also cater to those who think they should get everything and could care less about anyone else. When they do need something, which would require a group effort, they do not hesitate to join a group but will most likely bail when they get what they wanted to just be generally greedy on the loot. I mean who cares of those people they grouped with get upset, that player can just go back to solo play now they got what they desired.

I know this type of behavior doesn't apply to everyone, but it is very common and increasing with each new game. I guess I like games where the community (the player base in a game) has the ability to punish individuals for poor play style. If only in the sense to deny them to opportunity to be part of the community. People should be valued and respected as individuals. Systems where there is no need to depend on one another make the other players have no real value and thus are treated as such.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by Dewm

Why didn't you get up off your lasy @ss and make a group yourself? And on top of that what game are you playing where you couldn't go solo? the only one out there right now (that I can think of) is FFXI, and even that you can solo somewhat.

In almost all cases, I do make the groups because everyone else is too damn lazy. Apparently you can't read because I said that had I gone out and soloed, I could have made as much or more XP than I did sitting around waiting for all the team members to get together.

But what can we expect from you? Not much, apparently.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by A.Dantes

Originally posted by Cephus404

There are times when sure, you're after a particular piece of loot that only drops from a particular place and the only way to get that loot is to grab a team and get it. When you're just out for XP, when you're just out for loot, a team really doesn't matter and in cases like the one I described, may actually harm you.
The point is, should I have gotten some kind of benefit for sitting around 45 minutes doing nothing, as some pro-groupers have suggested, just because I was trying to group, or should I only benefit from the time that I'm actually playing the game and not have extras for times I'm forming a group, people are on bathroom breaks or whatever?

Isn't this the poster child argument for exactly why grouping needs to give significantly higher rewards than soloing? No matter what the game is, its always going to take more time and effort to get multiple people working together, in the same place, at the same time.

Now if whatever game you had been playing was properly designed, the rewards for grouping should have outstripped what you could have accomplished solo. You wouldn't be coming to a forum and ranting that you could have gotten more solo in the same amount because it wouldn't be true. You wouldn't be waiting nearly an hour for a group to form because the pool of people to draw from would be larger, afterall there is more incentive for them to drop what they're doing solo and go join a group. And there wouldn't be nearly as many people LFG but unwilling to start one. You had to wait 45 minutes because you started the group and accomplished less than you could have solo, but how about the last person to join your group? That's he wasn't the one to start the group in your MMO.

Why should it? The way I look at it, say you have a level 100 monster, just to use some even numbers. That monster is worth 100 XP. Whoever kills that monster, no matter if it's one player or a dozen, should get that 100 XP spread among them, they've performed a task that's worth 100 XP. Now a single level 10 character is probably not going to be able to kill that level 100 monster, but maybe a team of 5 level 10 characters could. In such a case, they ought to get 20 XP each for their part in killing the monster.

But some people want the team to make significantly more than that, just because of all the stupid nonsense they have to go through to make the team in the first place. They want to be rewarded for sitting around doing nothing, spamming, looking for players, etc. That's not playing the game, that's sitting around doing nothing, spamming and looking for players, none of which are XP-worthy pursuits.

If you're a decent player with a decent character, you should always be able to make more XP, playing 60 minutes for example, than you could in any team you could get into and only playing 20 minutes. It's a matter of time actually spent playing vs. time wasted setting up the team.

However, it applies to the last person to join too since they could just as easily have been playing solo all that time that the rest of us were sitting around, they'd have made more XP than all of us because they'd have all the XP we earned as a team, plus all the XP they earned as a solo. Maybe they were the only real smart ones in the group.

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by Torik

It definetly took more time but only the group leader put in more effort. The others were just standing around doing nothing productive. So if you want to award effort then only the group leader should be entitled to better rewards while everyone else gets zero 'bonus points'. Even the the group leader's effort is purely social in nature and that kind of effort is not generally rewarded in MMOs on its own.
So you are essentially only rewarding the group members for being frustrated which any soloer can easily reproduce.

That's not necessarily true though. While yes, the group leader is the only one who can actively recruit, that doesn't mean other members aren't looking around for people who can be recruited, looking at the LFT list, asking their friends, posting in their org channels, etc. They can't do the actual recruiting, that doesn't mean they're not doing any work.

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