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Item decay: Good bad or ugly? Should it replace Bind on Pick up?
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
In the real world things break, or they become obsolete. This means you have to replace those things, so you need to make more money, spend more money, and the economy goes round and round like that.
An example that is familiar to everyone would be the Television. Televisions last a long time, but eventually they break. Or, like recently, they becoome obsolete. Now you need a new digital TV to replace the old analog TV.
In games, without breakage or obsolescence you get inflation. It also wrecks level balance.
You start out low level, hoping and wishing you would get a +1 sword of pwnage. When you finally get one, it is a wonderful thing, and you are wtf! pwning everything that moves.
But as the game goes on, +1 swords of pwnage are everywhere. Max level players toss them out and hand them to newbs that just logged in to the game for the first time. Here ya go, have a +1 sword of pwnage! Now, the player levels, does a few quests, and what do they get as a reward? The +1sword of pwnage. But that's crap now, because I got that when I first logged on to the game. But if the devs now make the reward a +2 sword of pwnage, it screws up the balance of the quest. And now the game is totally out of wack.
So, to stop powerful items coming into the hands of newbs, you can do a couple of things. First you can Bind On Pick up, or Bind on Equip. The first person to pick up the iitem, OR the first person to equip the item, is the only oone that can use it.
But, this is bad for trading, and bad for crafting. Obviously I can't sell you something that is bound to me only.
The other way to go is obselence. You just ramp everything up. Yo make the mobs tougher. Now you need a +2 sword of pwnage to kill them, and the +1 sword of pwnage is yesterdays item of power, now it's just junk. But that's difficult to keep up with, and eventually kinda ridiculous with everyone needing a +1,000 sword of pwnage.
Or, you can have item decay. Just like in the real world, things get old, and they break and need to be replaced. Good for crafters, becasue they can repair and craft items to replace the old ones.
But, players often get upset because they worked so hard for their +1 sword of pwnage, and now it's broken. 
Which one do you like better?
Comments
To do nothing is bad design. Obselence is simply not workable. Just far too much developer effort required when other systems can be put in place, so that leaves BOE/BOP or item decay.
In regards to the title of the thread, should item decay replace BOP/BOE?. Well, that all comes down to context, the type of MMO. Once you define that, I think very quickly the right choice would pop out.
eg, WoW, with its end-game raid and gear progression, BOP is the best mechanism for their model.
Indeed BOP is bad for trading (atleast for that given item), you should be able to appreciate that it is precisely that very mechanism that prevents the trading is upon which WoW builds it raid progressions.
You mean no drop, no rent items? lol
I think it was DAoC that had item decay. There was also a feature where you could use items many levels above your level, what's commonly referred to as "purple" items.
However, the more above your level the item was, the faster it would decay.
So a high level could give you an uber sword, but very quickly it would turn into junk, and the cost of repair would be very hight compared to the level of gold you were earning.
^^This.
If item degredation were to replace BOP and BOE items your game would have to do more than have that feature. The game would have to be featured around it.
Awesomeness
"Nerf Rock, Paper is fine. Regards, Scissors."
^^This.
If item degredation were to replace BOP and BOE items your game would have to do more than have that feature. The game would have to be featured around it.
I may be wrong here but wasn't EQ built around large raids? They didn't have BoP or BoE ,,, sure I think they had horrible drop rates but BoP and BoE are two of the largest factors in the loot whore mentality of games today which make for a greedy and selfish player base.
Item decay as in DaoC was fine and items generally lasted long enough that you would tire of it and replace it with something else anyways. What was great is I and many others would have old items lying around and could either twink out our lowbie toons or just give them to new players so the low levels weren't as much as a struggle. Not surprisingly, daoc had a great community until the loot whoring expansion ToA was created.
Everything I get from crafting/looting/quest rewards I replace time and time again over and over and over until I hit the max level.
That's plenty of item replacement and a decay in usefullness.
Once at max level, I begin replacing lower tier gear with higher tier by running more difficult content.
That's plenty of item replacement and a decay in usefullness.
Every time they release new content they release new craftable and lootable gear for me to replace my old stuff with.
That's plenty of item replacement and a decay in usefullness.
Get the point yet?
Oh, wait, I'm sorry... I should only be able to use my new gear a certain number of times before I have to replace it again. God forbid I be able to keep something I've worked towards and use it faithfully until something better comes along.
I mean I'd love to do the same raids and bosses over and over again once I get the gear I want because my current gear keeps breaking so I have to keep replacing it...
Or I have to keep farming the resources to make my own stuff via crafting, even though I've already gathered the required materials a dozen times before, becuase hot damn the stuff just keeps breaking!
No thanks Ihmotepp, in a gear centric MMORPG, all you are suggesting is MORE artificial time sinks and wasted time instead of actually enjoying the game.
There are already enough time sinks and gear treadmills to have to worry about replacing the stuff I already have because it's going to break.
That kind of system ONLY works in a game like old-school UO where there was no sword+1 or sword+2 there was just a sword. Period.
I like the idea of breaking down weapons for mats to craft new ones.
Say you only get weapons from Craft or Drop (really poor ones from store). In order to craft new weapons, you need to salvage blades, hilts, etc. So the old weapons need to be broken down to make the new ones.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
Or I'd love to be continually handicapped because I am unable to go on these large raids or everytime I do the item I need doesn't drop. Because without BoE or BoP I'd actually be able to get these items easier via auction house or hand me downs from other players. Holy shit,,, what a bad thing that would be, getting items for free!!!
The system worked fine in Shrouded Isles for DaoC. People went on raids and rolled for the items they wanted. Guildies, friends would roll on items for each other and if they won,, OMG here it is: Give them to their friends.
The rate of decay was so slow that you'd almost never break anything by the time you wanted a new weapon. I played daoc for well over 3 years and I cannot remember having one item decay on me to where it broke.
"No thanks Ihmotepp, in a gear centric MMORPG, all you are suggesting is MORE artificial time sinks and wasted time instead of actually enjoying the game."
In a gear centric game aren't you spending all your time getting gear anyways ? So how does rate of decay actually affect what you are doing on a daily basis ?
Wait so you want gear to be even easier to get then in World of Warcraft?
Wow. You should play on the test server and just play with pre-made characters. They are already max level and have full epics. Sounds perfect for someone who just wants to be given everything rather then having to do something for BoP items.
Im not fond of the idea that my character "is" the gear it wears. So naturally i like item decay. An item is just a item. Nothing that should be bind on pickup or have a etanal lifespan.
Wait so you want gear to be even easier to get then in World of Warcraft?
Wow. You should play on the test server and just play with pre-made characters. They are already max level and have full epics. Sounds perfect for someone who just wants to be given everything rather then having to do something for BoP items.
What I want are OPTIONS. I want the option to buy an item or raid for one. I want to the OPTION to give an item to someone if I don't need it. I want the OPTION to team up with friends, guildies, realm-mates to help each other out instead of the selfish atmosphere of loot whoring that BOP and BOE have created. I want the gap between the have's and havenots to lessen. But you see, I prefer pvp and in particular group pvp.
I'm not a loot whore. I want to get my character geared out enough to be successful. I don't need to min/max. I want people to win or lose in group pvp based on actual teamwork instead of the gear differences. Maybe you like to be handed pvp wins but I like to earn those.
My favorite item system was by a longshot the one in pre-nge SWG. For those of you unfamiliar with it, I'll try to recap it as briefly as possible.
All weapons and armor were crafted, and had a relative average lifespan of about 2 months. Anybody with the cash could buy the most powerful weapon in the game from a crafter capable of making it. This encouraged player interaction through trading, trying to find the best deal, discussing prices, offering services (you can use 5 of my lots for harvesters for a month, etc).
However this did not put ALL of the power in the hands of the crafter, because to make a truely exceptional piece of armor or a weapon, you more often than not needed very specific and high quality resources from dangerous creatures (hides and bones from things like krayt dragons or rancors), and these could only be efficiently collected by a group. The groups indirectly controlled the economy by determining the prices of the rare or hard to obtain resources, which in turn trickled down into the crafters, and finally, to the "casual player", who was more than able to obtain the "top end gear", but had a much harder time earning cash than the groupers, so had to think twice before deciding if the +2 carbine was worth an extra 300k credits, since it would probably break before you could earn enough money for a new one.
This not only solved the problem of item decay, it bridged the gap between groupers and solo-ers by effectively making solo players the customers of the group players.
I don't know why most all games have switched to a loot-based system instead of crafter based, but my guess would be that it is easier to manage and the mods want to maintain some level of order rather than letting the 2 or 3 best armorsmiths on the server or the one guild capable of harvesting dragon scales completely control the economy. I didn't have a problem with that, though.
Yes, this is one reason I am really looking forward to Earthrise. Crafters will be made valuable again and a
"TRUE" economic system similar to EvE hopefully will be made.
WaR, WoW, COH and others are nothing more than people buying and reselling items at a higher price.
Typical scenario: "I saw wool cloth going for 5 silver a piece so I bought them all up and repriced them for 12 silver each."
I want true economy, player made, player driven, and the true social interaction of getting to know the right people put into effect.
I really like that concept. The solo player can get the items they often complain about being excluded from in Raid games, but the groupers have something they can contribute and are rewarded for that the solo player cannot do just as easily.
You want the great sword or gun? No problem you can buy it.
But you can't do the "raid" or group dungeon to get the materials to make the gun. So what, you don't want the materials anyway, you just want the gear it makes.
And the group makes great cash selling the mats.
I like it a lot.
What I would like to see: A fully integrated system of item decay, outright destruction and loss with full pvp loot, real world carrying limits, mobs dropping what they wear/use, an extensive crafting/salvaging system *and* a game where my character is more than the sum of what gear he is wearing.
Now not really expecting to see that, the games I have been happiest with the system in were DAoC (pre-ToA or classic servers) and SWG (pre-NGE)
It all depends on the design of the rest of the game. If it's a game with any emphasis on economy or crafting, then decay or breakage of some kind is a great mechanic to add. If the game is like WOW, decay or breakage outside of the existing durability system they have would be nothing more than a nuisance, especially when it comes to epic gear.
Decay and breakage works for UO, but in EVE Online, a game that is very similar in many ways, decay would be an annoyance. AC incorporates a chance of destruction during imbuing/tinkering, but otherwise has no decay. This works well for AC, and having items to pass down to alts and newer characters is seen as a benefit of the system. DAoC maintained a consistent look through the progressive gear, so someone that liked the look and stats of a great spear was not affected by decay as he would not lose the cosmetic aspect of their gear, unlike WOW where if you liked the look of your Big bronze Knife, you were SOL in five levels.
Decay and destruction of items is wholly dependent on the rest of the game's design, specifically the crafting and economy. I don't think it's really feasible to summarily accept or dismiss decay. As for the poll choices presented... i won't even go there.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Well, for starters, there will be inflation for any and every game system. It is entirely and completely unavoidable. And here is why:
With any economy there has to be a limited amount of currency available at any given time. Otherwise it is devalued. For example, in the US over hte past year the treasury flooded the market with some 250 billion newly printed dollars (without taking any currency out of play), devaluing every single dollar currently in the market, around the world, by about $.18. In game economies there is 0 limit to the amount of money available. When you go out and do 10-12 quests then return the quest giver always gives you the reward (an item with a set value and or a set amount of currency). The real world does not work this way, look at the state of California which currently is giving out IOU's in lieu of pay, or some townships in Pennsylvania that are using scrip notes because the municipalities are currently bankrupt. How many people would continue playing a game where the reward was a promise of payment sometime in the future. BOP items, BOE items, and repair are nothing more than timesinks. You have to go out of your way to get repairs, grind cash to pay for repairs, and run through content umpteen thousands of times to get multiple characters geared. Timesinks equate to people playing just that much longer, and the game company getting that much more money for doing a minimal amount of work.
Now, secondly, everything does become obsolete as you level in any game system. The +1 sword of ownage that you alluded to in your post becomes obsolete within a couple of levels. There are no max level characters in many games running around with the same gear that they first logged into the game with (unless of course you are decked out in heirloom items in wow but those do not make for very good endgame gears lol).
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I really like that concept. The solo player can get the items they often complain about being excluded from in Raid games, but the groupers have something they can contribute and are rewarded for that the solo player cannot do just as easily.
You want the great sword or gun? No problem you can buy it.
But you can't do the "raid" or group dungeon to get the materials to make the gun. So what, you don't want the materials anyway, you just want the gear it makes.
And the group makes great cash selling the mats.
I like it a lot.
I see actually the opposite of this. If the soloer/casual grouper puts in the time and effort to gather the mats to make an exceptional piece of gear, he/she should not be held hostage by groupers who did not put in the work. The groupers can get their easy loot from raids and the soloers can put in effort and work to get theirs.
In regard to everything becoming obsolete, not necessarially. In old SWG a marksman gained certification for a FWG5 pistol at pistols rank 4, which was pretty much 2 hours after rolling a new character.
Months later, when the player reached master pistoleer, the FWG5 was still the weapon of choice, the difference being all those skill boxes you filled in between raised your damage, accuracy, range, and rate of fire with the same pistol. The rank 4 marksman might have a 40% chance to hit and do 50 damage, but the master pistoleer will have an 80% chance to hit and do 150 damage, at twice the rate of fire and from 15 meters further away with the exact same weapon.
What made it important was that the item would eventually break, and that not all FWG5 pistols were created equally. A new player could wield the best pistol in the game, but it was so expensive that the chances of them being able to afford it were pretty much nil, so insead of getting the 30-50 damage gun made of high quality steel, they'd get the 20-35 damage gun made of scrap metal.
Even at end game I remember not using the "best" weapon in all situations. I'd carry 2 or sometimes 3 guns, and save the "top quality" one for situations where I knew I would need some massive firepower.
I can see a similar system of item decay impacting other games. Gear wouldn't determine all of a character's potential because one will be reluctant to use, say, a 300 gold weapon when they can slap on a 50 gold run-of-the-mill weapon and only lose 5% damage.
What SWG did you play?
On my server there were a handful of crafters who had all the best factories and resource gatherers in all the best places and NO ONE could compete with them, they were allowed to charge whatever they wanted for the stuff they crafted and only the absolutely most ridiculous of grinders could ever afford to buy their stuff.
The rest of us were forced to buy lower quality or lower requirement weapons and armor.
It was a total f*cking joke of an economoy, give players that much freedom and the ability to kill all competition and they will pull a Microsoft on the in-game economy.
SWG economy and crafting/gear system was a joke.
Please, you're making me laugh.
Besides, the best weapons could only be used if you had enough Skill Points in a tree to unlock them so a "noob" could NOT just go buy the best weapons and armor in the game, sorry.
You are 100% wrong. Stop looking back at SWG with such rose tinted glasses.
No, see I'm smart I don't play MMORPG's for PvP, I play FPS games for that because MMOs that are based on gear and levels and classes will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS let me say again ALWAYS FUCKING ALWAYS not be fair and balanced, ever.
Name a MMO where PvP is perfectly fair and balanced and teamwork/skill > gear and level?
I'll be waiting.
Leave PvP to FPS I say, it's a concept that is near impossible to balance in a MMORPG due to levels and gear. Period.
The only way to "really" make it "fair" is to start the bar even, like WoW does with their Tournament servers. Everyone has the same level and same level of gear, it's just all about spec and group comp and skill. Teamwork/skill > gear because all the gear is the same!
I actualy like item decay however, i prefur it to only happen upon death.
Leaving out the wholly unrealistic condition of "perfectly fair and balanced," I'd say EVE Online and Asheron's Call could fit the bill there.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Besides, people who whine and QQ about gear and imbalance in PvP are usually just cry babies that don't want to put in the effort to get the gear nor are the skilled enough to actually defeat other players.
Gear is a reward for being good, and gear makes you better, so being good means you will get better faster, which means you will be ever better.
In perfectly balanced PvP, you'd still lose 50% of the time.
People who whine and gear and comp usually don't have anywhere near the best gear nor the most intelligent comp.
"ZOMG PALADIN'S ARE SOO OP LET'S MAKE A TEAM OF 5 OF THEM!"
And then get raped by a team with a good comp.