What allt hese posts about not liking current games have in commong is the grinding. No one likes the grindiing
no one has fun playing 5 hours a day for two months to enjoy a few weeks at the end of the latter, then restart out of boredom from class mechanics.
The grinding was started by EQ. There are those who say, "Ooh well the grinding in EQ is so fun!!!"
Well congratz to you, my cousin almos tfailed out of med school and he thought the same thing, but you are wrong...it's not fun, it's addicting, and that's where you make your error....addiction does not equal fun...
That is why with wow's mild grind, I can still make it to the end and pvp grind, cause pvp is fun. Do I think wow is the best game ever made? No, objectively speaking, the best games ever made were Guild wars, and ultima online. Why? Becaus ehte grind was a few hours, and then you were chugging along. Sure it was hard to go from 95-100 skill, but it wasn't very hard to go from 90-95. The people who subscribed to Everquest and catapulted that p.o.s. graphical mud waste of life vampire game are to blame, becuase wow took that element of grinding and even though they downplayed it, made it standard in mmorpg. And just so you know it's never "what the gamers want vs. what the developers make" It's always both, it's 50/50 and it's a two way interaction. So if your facing cognitive dissonance because your finding there aren't enough hours in your life to play a game, well tough, this isn't a free world, and you can only play as long as your class in society allows you.
and you chose it by playing EVERQUEST, remember 500,000 subscribers, propelled blizzard into the market - thank god, but not for the dynamics they improved on - obviously not enough......hial Guild Wars, and Ultima Online, for doing it right.....and long live those gmaes that come out after in the same spirit. Death to Aion, and the rest of the grindfests.
Some people tire of a particular gameplay pattern (like: MMORPGs).
Others weren't even interested in the first place.
Whatever your situation: if it's not fun, don't play it!
Just don't gripe about others' preference. Because if the industry's still going strong then that clearly means an awful lot of players still enjoy the type of gameplay you don't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Some people tire of a particular gameplay pattern (like: MMORPGs). Others weren't even interested in the first place. Whatever your situation: if it's not fun, don't play it! Just don't gripe about others' preference. Because if the industry's still going strong then that clearly means an awful lot of players still enjoy the type of gameplay you don't.
Of course people can gripe. If they want to see a change in the genre, then that is the best way to go about it. You take away your sub and you give feedback.
As to the genre going strong, if they don't offer any other choice but the same old MMO paradigms, then those who are new to the genre or those who are masochists will obviously take what they can get. As the genre matures, we are seeing more and more disappointment from a lot of players who are looking for real change. Who are looking for real games not business models with pretty wrapping filled with phychological mechanics that appeal to our addictive nature without really entertaining us.
In other words, the players are growing up and maturing and we're seeing the scam for what it is and aren't willing to tolerate it anymore.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Speaking only for myself, I know whyI feel this way. [lots of darn good stuff] Ohatro
You speak for me as well, Ohatro.
The things you speak about are things I've been trying to say for awhile now. And I--like you and everyone here--believe the genre is not exciting anymore.
For years and years, developers have been cutting out all the "boring" things like travel, crafting, and housing to get people into the "exciting" things faster...and that means combat. But by doing so, they've basically painted themselves into a corner.
Because by offering nothing but fast action combat, they've made combat boring. And when combat is boring, there's no place where a developer can go to make the game more exciting. Sure, they can make harder MOBs, but that's basically the same MOB with different math underpinning it and a different model.
The only reason we are able to sit through a 90 minute film is because the fast-paced scenes are interspersed with slow scenes. But what happens when you take away all the slow scenes? You get a meaningless mess that makes people wonder after awhile, "what's the point of what I'm watching?"
I suspect this is why all of us here are burned out, and I expect it to get much worse in the next few years.
See, the best films--like the best games--aren't the ones who do the fast-paced and action-packed scenes well. I mean, there's only so many ways you can blow stuff up and kill people. After awhile, it gets old...and it gets older the more the film relies on it.
The best films--like the best games--are games that do the slow scenes well. That's what I think will get us back.
You say that the best films do the slow scenes well, I disagree to a point. It's all about balance. Good slow scenes interspersed between action/drama scenes. Too many slow scenes and the film starts to drag on. Too many action/drama scenes and the story doesn't make much sense. Humans like balance, so the perfect film combines these two.
I think this is what happened to the MMO genre (the mainstream that is). They went the complete opposite direction of the old MMOs and made things very quick and easy. The old MMOs had far too many time sinks. But if a developer was to balance the old style with this new, fast-paced style, I think they would have a winner.
Originally posted by Vrazule Of course people can gripe. If they want to see a change in the genre, then that is the best way to go about it. You take away your sub and you give feedback.
There's complaining.
And there's complaining about what other players like.
One can be productive.
One is always pointless.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
I am not currently paying for any subscriptions. No game currently on the market provides the world immersion I expect and desire from the MMORPG experience. Today's MMORPGs are very unsatisfactory. The industry is suffering from a lack of innovation in every aspect of the game, both incremental and breakthrough. I cannot pay and sit on my ass for five hours a day to level-up to gear-up to raid-up to level-up more. It is not appealing.
A number of single-player games, however, such as FALLOUT 3, Civilization IV, and Bioshock have been excellent.
Speaking only for myself, I know whyI feel this way. [lots of darn good stuff] Ohatro
You speak for me as well, Ohatro.
The things you speak about are things I've been trying to say for awhile now. And I--like you and everyone here--believe the genre is not exciting anymore.
For years and years, developers have been cutting out all the "boring" things like travel, crafting, and housing to get people into the "exciting" things faster...and that means combat. But by doing so, they've basically painted themselves into a corner.
Because by offering nothing but fast action combat, they've made combat boring. And when combat is boring, there's no place where a developer can go to make the game more exciting. Sure, they can make harder MOBs, but that's basically the same MOB with different math underpinning it and a different model.
The only reason we are able to sit through a 90 minute film is because the fast-paced scenes are interspersed with slow scenes. But what happens when you take away all the slow scenes? You get a meaningless mess that makes people wonder after awhile, "what's the point of what I'm watching?"
I suspect this is why all of us here are burned out, and I expect it to get much worse in the next few years.
See, the best films--like the best games--aren't the ones who do the fast-paced and action-packed scenes well. I mean, there's only so many ways you can blow stuff up and kill people. After awhile, it gets old...and it gets older the more the film relies on it.
The best films--like the best games--are games that do the slow scenes well. That's what I think will get us back.
You say that the best films do the slow scenes well, I disagree to a point. It's all about balance. Good slow scenes interspersed between action/drama scenes. Too many slow scenes and the film starts to drag on. Too many action/drama scenes and the story doesn't make much sense. Humans like balance, so the perfect film combines these two.
I think this is what happened to the MMO genre (the mainstream that is). They went the complete opposite direction of the old MMOs and made things very quick and easy. The old MMOs had far too many time sinks. But if a developer was to balance the old style with this new, fast-paced style, I think they would have a winner.
The games generally do a good job with the "fast action" parts. The problem is that they'd rather cut out all the slow parts than make the slow parts better.
It isn't, in my opinion, a matter of quantity of the slow play. More timesinks that aren't very well done isn't going to make the games better. Rather, it's a matter of the quality of the slow play, which is something the developers these days seem incapable of doing.
Their solution--and the solution that isn't working-- is to cut all the slow parts out (like travel, crafting, roleplay, etc.), so that all that is left are the "action packed" parts (aka, combat). But to me, and probably a lot of us here, this solution doesn't make the game more "action packed." It simply makes the "action packed" elements boring and monotinous.
Depth is something we rarely understand here at MMORPG. But if we think about it, what makes an entertainment experience deep has very little to do with the action packed stuff. The explosions and stunts may be exciting, but they aren't "deep." The depth of a movie or game has more to do with the things that happen between the action-packed segments. What is going on there in the games we have today?
Not much. Which is why the games get old quickly.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
I am not currently paying for any subscriptions. No game currently on the market provides the world immersion I expect and desire from the MMORPG experience. Today's MMORPGs are very unsatisfactory. The industry is suffering from a lack of innovation in every aspect of the game, both incremental and breakthrough. I cannot pay and sit on my ass for five hours a day to level-up to gear-up to raid-up to level-up more. It is not appealing.
A number of single-player games, however, such as FALLOUT 3, Civilization IV, and Bioshock have been excellent.
I absolutely agree with your last sentence especially. I still love firing up a game of Civ.
But I don't really agree that there needs to be innovation per se. The games you are mentioning weren't necessarily innovative in their respective genres. They just did everything well. Everything that previous titles in their genre did on an average level, they took and did them on a superior level.
I guess that's what blew my mind about games like AOC and WAR. They were both from development studios that had experience and good MMO's to their credit, and they took their games and couldn't even do the genre well within the established gameplay mechanics from previous games..........
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
Sounds like you realized how pointless it is to strive for progression just for the sake of progression. And when the lure of progression by itself was no longer enough for you, you realized that the gameplay wasn't fun just for it's own sake. And then you sat there staring at your computer and felt no desire to bother with it at all.
QFT - Well said. After striving for an endless pointless grind, one craves a game that has more meaning and even possibly an "end" to strive for that makes it worth going for. It's just like running a race. What good is a race that has no finish line(save for some exercise)?!
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
According to your post history, this thread is completely redundant. It 100% apperant that you do not enjoy MMO gaming anymore to any longtime MMORPG.com purveyer.
Sometimes we all have to get over it and move on to better things. Personally I'm with you, I have no desire to play MMOs in the near future. You understand how hollow an escape MMOs are and realize in the grand scheme of your life how pointless it is. It's a step towards enlightenment.
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
I have been doing some research and I'm curious, do you think you would still be playing UO if they hadn't drastically changed it?
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
According to your post history, this thread is completely redundant. It 100% apperant that you do not enjoy MMO gaming anymore to any longtime MMORPG.com purveyer.
Sometimes we all have to get over it and move on to better things. Personally I'm with you, I have no desire to play MMOs in the near future. You understand how hollow an escape MMOs are now and realize in the grand scheme of your life how pointless it is. It's a step towards enlightenment.
In my experience, there was a real excitement to the genre when it was newer. The opportunities for exploration and shared adventure in exciting (and dangerous) virtual worlds were the draw for me. I also liked a nice, mental break from my day job. I was in law enforcement at the time, and had to deal with a lot of people's crap every day.
Now, however, I find that a lot of the companies aren't really focused on providing an enjoyable, relaxing entertainment experience for a reasonable price. No, they seem to craft their games now as little more than vehicles to access my Visa card as quickly as possible, with as little effort as possible.
Games are rushed out the gate in a sorry state, and hyped as if they're the greatest invention since the light bulb. Features are advertised that aren't actually in games, and may never be. Content is being released via additional RMT purchases. Paying a subscription for some games only gets you a portiion of the new content, and it's usually second rate. Free to play games let you choose professions such as a pet trainer, but actual pets will cost you extra.
Sad, sad, sad.
So, what I do now is play more actual card and RPG games again with friends and family. Face to face interactions with people are as fun as I remember them lol. I'm also working with folks on an open source MMO, which aims to put gamers first, instead of treating them as little more than sheep to be sheared. I'm also beta testing a game that has an intriguing business model. I'll probably beta test more games too, if I think the developer has a passion for their game and a respect for the people who will use it.
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
I have been doing some research and I'm curious, do you think you would still be playing UO if they hadn't drastically changed it?
For me yes since Uogamers free sever is still the most active game I play. I never log into the game feeling I must grind to do something, or reach the next level. The social aspect that is actually in-game is awesome and i never feel like I am doing the same thing all the time only to reach an end that is unfullfilling. Basically a free sever that has an average of 800 people logged in, is more fun to me then these new mmos with thousands logged in, all doing the same grind work.
Speaking only for myself, I know whyI feel this way. [lots of darn good stuff] Ohatro
You speak for me as well, Ohatro.
The things you speak about are things I've been trying to say for awhile now. And I--like you and everyone here--believe the genre is not exciting anymore.
For years and years, developers have been cutting out all the "boring" things like travel, crafting, and housing to get people into the "exciting" things faster...and that means combat. But by doing so, they've basically painted themselves into a corner.
Because by offering nothing but fast action combat, they've made combat boring. And when combat is boring, there's no place where a developer can go to make the game more exciting. Sure, they can make harder MOBs, but that's basically the same MOB with different math underpinning it and a different model.
The only reason we are able to sit through a 90 minute film is because the fast-paced scenes are interspersed with slow scenes. But what happens when you take away all the slow scenes? You get a meaningless mess that makes people wonder after awhile, "what's the point of what I'm watching?"
I suspect this is why all of us here are burned out, and I expect it to get much worse in the next few years.
See, the best films--like the best games--aren't the ones who do the fast-paced and action-packed scenes well. I mean, there's only so many ways you can blow stuff up and kill people. After awhile, it gets old...and it gets older the more the film relies on it.
The best films--like the best games--are games that do the slow scenes well. That's what I think will get us back.
You say that the best films do the slow scenes well, I disagree to a point. It's all about balance. Good slow scenes interspersed between action/drama scenes. Too many slow scenes and the film starts to drag on. Too many action/drama scenes and the story doesn't make much sense. Humans like balance, so the perfect film combines these two.
I think this is what happened to the MMO genre (the mainstream that is). They went the complete opposite direction of the old MMOs and made things very quick and easy. The old MMOs had far too many time sinks. But if a developer was to balance the old style with this new, fast-paced style, I think they would have a winner.
The games generally do a good job with the "fast action" parts. The problem is that they'd rather cut out all the slow parts than make the slow parts better.
It isn't, in my opinion, a matter of quantity of the slow play. More timesinks that aren't very well done isn't going to make the games better. Rather, it's a matter of the quality of the slow play, which is something the developers these days seem incapable of doing.
Their solution--and the solution that isn't working-- is to cut all the slow parts out (like travel, crafting, roleplay, etc.), so that all that is left are the "action packed" parts (aka, combat). But to me, and probably a lot of us here, this solution doesn't make the game more "action packed." It simply makes the "action packed" elements boring and monotinous.
Depth is something we rarely understand here at MMORPG. But if we think about it, what makes an entertainment experience deep has very little to do with the action packed stuff. The explosions and stunts may be exciting, but they aren't "deep." The depth of a movie or game has more to do with the things that happen between the action-packed segments. What is going on there in the games we have today?
Not much. Which is why the games get old quickly.
I am surprised anyone read that post at all, hehe. Looks like you and I are in the same mind Beatnik59, and I would suspect more people as well, they just havent over-analyzed as drastically as i have. I guess since I play those other games that have tedious things and are niche, I saw this connection easier.
But they are niche, and so am I. I think as long as these games cost more than 50 million to make, and the focus groups keep telling them combat, combat combat, this is what we will get. So mmorpgs have become action games, and I really dont blame them. i wouldnt spend 50 milion, and pray i break even if I was running SOE or EA. I think even if they made the tedious things easier or better, they would not attract the action gamers to that genre of game. To keep with my other analogy with flight sims, Jane's tried this with Jane's USAF 10 years ago. That game flopped, and there was a noticeable absense of sim games for years after. That dumbing down didnt attract new pilots at all ( because it was still tedious flying ) and the old pilots hated the easiness of the game. So if SOE somehow comes up with a way to make travel ( thereby allowing for great exploration again ) fun, well its stil travelling. Action gamers, which this genre is now, don't want it. I dont feel that a good crafting system or other social elements can exist in a loot-driven, raid for better loot, game. And housing or other social elements like SWG dancers or whatever, well, they arent exactly action either.
Using your movie analogy, I saw Heat the other day, one of my favourite movies. It had alot of great slow scenes as you said, even though it is a violent, action movie. I think the best scenes are the bank robbery, all action, but also that scene where Pacino meets Deniro in the coffee shop. Great, serious movie. So I looked it up, and it is not even close to box office stardom. The top 100 box office grossing films absolutely dwarf it by hundreds of milions of dollars. If you look at the list, its easy to see what style of movies dominate. Its films that attract very wide audiences, like Titanic, Harry Potter, or comic book movies. Seems like i am niche in everything.
So for expensive video games, what is the largest audience companies are trying to pursue? I think xbox types and general action gamers. Certainly not the niche market of old mmorpgs. So what we have had for years, are action games in this genre. And I dont think this will change. There are great innovations coming, like SWTOR. But they are innovating the action mmorpgs out now, and all they are really doing is making the level grind less tedious by replacing boring quests with a complete heroic story experience. So its still this action game style. There are games coming out that will try to have those old systems in place, but they are being made by unknown, therefore underfunded, companies. This means they will be buggy, and open to attack by people who hate virtual worlds, even though they mistake what they are. For example, I loved SWG, but I can give you 3 pages of things that didnt work or were tedious. There are no rose coloured glasses here. But they didnt have to remove those system entirely, they should have improved them.
People always cite those games as failures because of the tedious systems, not realising that it was more the implementation of those systems, not the idea of those systems. For a niche game, pre-WoW, 350 000 subscribers 7 months after launch is hardly a failure. But those people were waiting for the systems to be fixed, which was supposed to happen. We know the rest after that... To me, there is a big difference between an action mmorpg, and the virtual worlds that were tried before. Its not the same game, but they are lumped into the same category. Because like i said before, even within these separate categories, there are debatable styles and systems. ie I personally like virtual worlds, but I dont like corpse runs, ffa pvp or no quests, which those games are somehow the definition of just that.
I remember in 2003 we had Horizons, Planetside, Shadowbane?, Star Wars Galaxies and EVE Online all offering such vastly different experience and evolving the genre in one way.
I remember in 2003 we had Horizons, Planetside, Shadowbane?, Star Wars Galaxies and EVE Online all offering such vastly different experience and evolving the genre in one way.
Now it's WoW clone after WoW clone.
On the other hand we also have shooters, more shooters and even more shooters. But some of them are still a lot of fun to play. Personally I feel that many of the MMORPG games released recently were not-so-great games after all. MMORPGs are the big thing. So many companies throw their MMORPG to the market to get a peace of the cake. Many of them felt like a quick rush even though the development time took quite some time. But writing lots of words on a paper doesn't guarantee a great story. I mean, the game concept/design of many recent MMORPGs feels like this:
Ok, let's make a MMORPG.
First we need classes. Of course tank, DPS and healer classes. Everyone knows them. Everyone loves them.
And, uhm, we need levels. Yes, of course. Let's say 50 or so. This allows us to add new content by simply rising the level cap. In order to level up players need to grind, erm sorry, collect experience points by doing, uhm, quests.
And, well, we need items. Lots of items. We sell it as "character customization". Add some dyes and we can sell it as ultimate character customization features.
Ah, and we need to keep players busy in the long run. Easy, that one. Add some randomly generated daily quests and some dungeons that offer the best loot in the game. That should keep our players busy for some time. From time to time we can just release new dungeons for even better gear. Easy to implement, no further thoughts required. So let's start development already!
Cool, when will the game be ready for release?
This is exaggerated, I know. But you get the idea. What I really miss is either a) true virtual worlds or b) solid game designs and not some random stuff thrown together.
I think I understand how you are feeling. I got my start in this genre with WoW and then EVE a few years later. Maybe because of my late start in MMORPGs I don't quite understand the hostility towards WoW but I do appreciate the burnout. I want to start an amazing MMORPG that will shock my senses and suck me in, something true to the sentiment of "warcrack".
I think what is hardest is that WoW was so amazing to me that when I come across games that are similar to it in style I lose interest fast. I gave EVE a try and it just felt too slow. Intelligent, well-designed, and no swords or fireballs is fantastic but just not enough for me. I want something that is the same but different. I really hope that the new Star Wars and/or Star Trek deliver but in the meantime... I don't know, maybe I just want to see more of the same but re-built from the ground up turning concepts and scenarios that work on their head.
I guess I'm just bored. If you find something please let me know.
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
Ahh how I miss the ol' UO days (Baja! / TAA/tDw!).
I think part of the problem is that there really isn't anything like UO anymore. We keep getting these themeparks, and honestly, once you've played one you've pretty much played them all.
That isn't to say that I haven't been keeping my self at least partial entertained in MMOs like LotRO, or the AION beta ... it's just, well, they are not UO ... :P.
*Edit* I partially blame the success of EQ. If UO would have been the top dog we'd have a lot more sandboxes to play in.
I can't really explain it. I've been playing MMOs since UO, From sandbox to themepark. I've played near everything and enjoyed Most in some way or another. I used to look forward to having a bit of free time in the evening to jump on a good old MMO and Adventure and chat it up with my guild. I had all this motivation to level skills or farm Items or rep. I don't know where it all went wrong to be honest. I thought it was the attraction of single player games being so high tech now but thats not it. I log into a MMO now and it seems like i'm just wasting my time by playing a game that promises fun later on, wading through grind or repetitive actions only designed to keep me paying and playing but not delivering anything close to an enjoyable experience. 12 years of MMOs and now I can't even stand being logged into one of these games more than 10 minutes...... I don't get it.
you got bored , burned out simple answer to me (thats what i admit ) .
you got a feel of ' BAH' and thats the time to take i break imo
MMO genre take slow steps towards orginality and uniqueness , bc the this is a risky market and Devs rather keep it on the safe side than evolving something outta the known pattern
I was like this before too. I stopped playing when I went into college. I didn't have much time and I also realized that it's better to spend it with other things (friends, hang around, etc.). But after I've graduated, I had this feeling that I miss MMORPGs heheh. There was nostalgia when I saw a ragnarok character as i was browsing the net. So I played it again and it felt nice. There are just times when you get tired of playing (which is sometimes good, so you can focus on other things for a change), But I tell you, the urge to play comes back in time (for ne at least).
Yeah Ive gotten bored too. My guild is the only reason I still play WAR. Im gonna give AoC a with the trial downloading right now but. I might resub to wow for the hell of it as I like the story but over all the genre I looked most forward to playing everyday has become stale to me.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
ITs because of mmorpg inflation if you will. The advertising just isnt there when it needs to be. ITs like there wasnt much advertising for cars when they first came out, because everyone was using horses to get around. But now, thats all you see, it car advertisments because everyone uses one. When mmorpgs first came out there didnt need to be any advertising for them because it was a new thing, and it was fun any way. Now that the market is inflated , there needs to be advertising to keep peoples interest while playing it, witch it defently hasnt done, for me either. I dont watch tv , so i cant say that there is some or none there, but like magaznines or something would be benifitial. I used to purchase a magazine called massive witch was a mmorpg magazine, then out of the frikin blue, swosh, its pulled like it never existed. If you can get your hands on some advertising it makes all the differenece in something being enjoyable or not, at least for mmorpgs is concerned.
Comments
What allt hese posts about not liking current games have in commong is the grinding. No one likes the grindiing
no one has fun playing 5 hours a day for two months to enjoy a few weeks at the end of the latter, then restart out of boredom from class mechanics.
The grinding was started by EQ. There are those who say, "Ooh well the grinding in EQ is so fun!!!"
Well congratz to you, my cousin almos tfailed out of med school and he thought the same thing, but you are wrong...it's not fun, it's addicting, and that's where you make your error....addiction does not equal fun...
That is why with wow's mild grind, I can still make it to the end and pvp grind, cause pvp is fun. Do I think wow is the best game ever made? No, objectively speaking, the best games ever made were Guild wars, and ultima online. Why? Becaus ehte grind was a few hours, and then you were chugging along. Sure it was hard to go from 95-100 skill, but it wasn't very hard to go from 90-95. The people who subscribed to Everquest and catapulted that p.o.s. graphical mud waste of life vampire game are to blame, becuase wow took that element of grinding and even though they downplayed it, made it standard in mmorpg. And just so you know it's never "what the gamers want vs. what the developers make" It's always both, it's 50/50 and it's a two way interaction. So if your facing cognitive dissonance because your finding there aren't enough hours in your life to play a game, well tough, this isn't a free world, and you can only play as long as your class in society allows you.
and you chose it by playing EVERQUEST, remember 500,000 subscribers, propelled blizzard into the market - thank god, but not for the dynamics they improved on - obviously not enough......hial Guild Wars, and Ultima Online, for doing it right.....and long live those gmaes that come out after in the same spirit. Death to Aion, and the rest of the grindfests.
Some people tire of a particular gameplay pattern (like: MMORPGs).
Others weren't even interested in the first place.
Whatever your situation: if it's not fun, don't play it!
Just don't gripe about others' preference. Because if the industry's still going strong then that clearly means an awful lot of players still enjoy the type of gameplay you don't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Of course people can gripe. If they want to see a change in the genre, then that is the best way to go about it. You take away your sub and you give feedback.
As to the genre going strong, if they don't offer any other choice but the same old MMO paradigms, then those who are new to the genre or those who are masochists will obviously take what they can get. As the genre matures, we are seeing more and more disappointment from a lot of players who are looking for real change. Who are looking for real games not business models with pretty wrapping filled with phychological mechanics that appeal to our addictive nature without really entertaining us.
In other words, the players are growing up and maturing and we're seeing the scam for what it is and aren't willing to tolerate it anymore.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You speak for me as well, Ohatro.
The things you speak about are things I've been trying to say for awhile now. And I--like you and everyone here--believe the genre is not exciting anymore.
For years and years, developers have been cutting out all the "boring" things like travel, crafting, and housing to get people into the "exciting" things faster...and that means combat. But by doing so, they've basically painted themselves into a corner.
Because by offering nothing but fast action combat, they've made combat boring. And when combat is boring, there's no place where a developer can go to make the game more exciting. Sure, they can make harder MOBs, but that's basically the same MOB with different math underpinning it and a different model.
The only reason we are able to sit through a 90 minute film is because the fast-paced scenes are interspersed with slow scenes. But what happens when you take away all the slow scenes? You get a meaningless mess that makes people wonder after awhile, "what's the point of what I'm watching?"
I suspect this is why all of us here are burned out, and I expect it to get much worse in the next few years.
See, the best films--like the best games--aren't the ones who do the fast-paced and action-packed scenes well. I mean, there's only so many ways you can blow stuff up and kill people. After awhile, it gets old...and it gets older the more the film relies on it.
The best films--like the best games--are games that do the slow scenes well. That's what I think will get us back.
You say that the best films do the slow scenes well, I disagree to a point. It's all about balance. Good slow scenes interspersed between action/drama scenes. Too many slow scenes and the film starts to drag on. Too many action/drama scenes and the story doesn't make much sense. Humans like balance, so the perfect film combines these two.
I think this is what happened to the MMO genre (the mainstream that is). They went the complete opposite direction of the old MMOs and made things very quick and easy. The old MMOs had far too many time sinks. But if a developer was to balance the old style with this new, fast-paced style, I think they would have a winner.
There's complaining.
And there's complaining about what other players like.
One can be productive.
One is always pointless.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I am not currently paying for any subscriptions. No game currently on the market provides the world immersion I expect and desire from the MMORPG experience. Today's MMORPGs are very unsatisfactory. The industry is suffering from a lack of innovation in every aspect of the game, both incremental and breakthrough. I cannot pay and sit on my ass for five hours a day to level-up to gear-up to raid-up to level-up more. It is not appealing.
A number of single-player games, however, such as FALLOUT 3, Civilization IV, and Bioshock have been excellent.
You speak for me as well, Ohatro.
The things you speak about are things I've been trying to say for awhile now. And I--like you and everyone here--believe the genre is not exciting anymore.
For years and years, developers have been cutting out all the "boring" things like travel, crafting, and housing to get people into the "exciting" things faster...and that means combat. But by doing so, they've basically painted themselves into a corner.
Because by offering nothing but fast action combat, they've made combat boring. And when combat is boring, there's no place where a developer can go to make the game more exciting. Sure, they can make harder MOBs, but that's basically the same MOB with different math underpinning it and a different model.
The only reason we are able to sit through a 90 minute film is because the fast-paced scenes are interspersed with slow scenes. But what happens when you take away all the slow scenes? You get a meaningless mess that makes people wonder after awhile, "what's the point of what I'm watching?"
I suspect this is why all of us here are burned out, and I expect it to get much worse in the next few years.
See, the best films--like the best games--aren't the ones who do the fast-paced and action-packed scenes well. I mean, there's only so many ways you can blow stuff up and kill people. After awhile, it gets old...and it gets older the more the film relies on it.
The best films--like the best games--are games that do the slow scenes well. That's what I think will get us back.
You say that the best films do the slow scenes well, I disagree to a point. It's all about balance. Good slow scenes interspersed between action/drama scenes. Too many slow scenes and the film starts to drag on. Too many action/drama scenes and the story doesn't make much sense. Humans like balance, so the perfect film combines these two.
I think this is what happened to the MMO genre (the mainstream that is). They went the complete opposite direction of the old MMOs and made things very quick and easy. The old MMOs had far too many time sinks. But if a developer was to balance the old style with this new, fast-paced style, I think they would have a winner.
The games generally do a good job with the "fast action" parts. The problem is that they'd rather cut out all the slow parts than make the slow parts better.
It isn't, in my opinion, a matter of quantity of the slow play. More timesinks that aren't very well done isn't going to make the games better. Rather, it's a matter of the quality of the slow play, which is something the developers these days seem incapable of doing.
Their solution--and the solution that isn't working-- is to cut all the slow parts out (like travel, crafting, roleplay, etc.), so that all that is left are the "action packed" parts (aka, combat). But to me, and probably a lot of us here, this solution doesn't make the game more "action packed." It simply makes the "action packed" elements boring and monotinous.
Depth is something we rarely understand here at MMORPG. But if we think about it, what makes an entertainment experience deep has very little to do with the action packed stuff. The explosions and stunts may be exciting, but they aren't "deep." The depth of a movie or game has more to do with the things that happen between the action-packed segments. What is going on there in the games we have today?
Not much. Which is why the games get old quickly.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I am not currently paying for any subscriptions. No game currently on the market provides the world immersion I expect and desire from the MMORPG experience. Today's MMORPGs are very unsatisfactory. The industry is suffering from a lack of innovation in every aspect of the game, both incremental and breakthrough. I cannot pay and sit on my ass for five hours a day to level-up to gear-up to raid-up to level-up more. It is not appealing.
A number of single-player games, however, such as FALLOUT 3, Civilization IV, and Bioshock have been excellent.
I absolutely agree with your last sentence especially. I still love firing up a game of Civ.
But I don't really agree that there needs to be innovation per se. The games you are mentioning weren't necessarily innovative in their respective genres. They just did everything well. Everything that previous titles in their genre did on an average level, they took and did them on a superior level.
I guess that's what blew my mind about games like AOC and WAR. They were both from development studios that had experience and good MMO's to their credit, and they took their games and couldn't even do the genre well within the established gameplay mechanics from previous games..........
Sounds like you realized how pointless it is to strive for progression just for the sake of progression. And when the lure of progression by itself was no longer enough for you, you realized that the gameplay wasn't fun just for it's own sake. And then you sat there staring at your computer and felt no desire to bother with it at all.
QFT - Well said. After striving for an endless pointless grind, one craves a game that has more meaning and even possibly an "end" to strive for that makes it worth going for. It's just like running a race. What good is a race that has no finish line(save for some exercise)?!
According to your post history, this thread is completely redundant. It 100% apperant that you do not enjoy MMO gaming anymore to any longtime MMORPG.com purveyer.
Sometimes we all have to get over it and move on to better things. Personally I'm with you, I have no desire to play MMOs in the near future. You understand how hollow an escape MMOs are and realize in the grand scheme of your life how pointless it is. It's a step towards enlightenment.
what might make you play again?
what should a game offer to the guys like you who got bored and want to experience something more?
A new input method beside keyboard and mouse. Basically a datajack in the back of your skull.
I have been doing some research and I'm curious, do you think you would still be playing UO if they hadn't drastically changed it?
PIRATE LORDS
According to your post history, this thread is completely redundant. It 100% apperant that you do not enjoy MMO gaming anymore to any longtime MMORPG.com purveyer.
Sometimes we all have to get over it and move on to better things. Personally I'm with you, I have no desire to play MMOs in the near future. You understand how hollow an escape MMOs are now and realize in the grand scheme of your life how pointless it is. It's a step towards enlightenment.
In my experience, there was a real excitement to the genre when it was newer. The opportunities for exploration and shared adventure in exciting (and dangerous) virtual worlds were the draw for me. I also liked a nice, mental break from my day job. I was in law enforcement at the time, and had to deal with a lot of people's crap every day.
Now, however, I find that a lot of the companies aren't really focused on providing an enjoyable, relaxing entertainment experience for a reasonable price. No, they seem to craft their games now as little more than vehicles to access my Visa card as quickly as possible, with as little effort as possible.
Games are rushed out the gate in a sorry state, and hyped as if they're the greatest invention since the light bulb. Features are advertised that aren't actually in games, and may never be. Content is being released via additional RMT purchases. Paying a subscription for some games only gets you a portiion of the new content, and it's usually second rate. Free to play games let you choose professions such as a pet trainer, but actual pets will cost you extra.
Sad, sad, sad.
So, what I do now is play more actual card and RPG games again with friends and family. Face to face interactions with people are as fun as I remember them lol. I'm also working with folks on an open source MMO, which aims to put gamers first, instead of treating them as little more than sheep to be sheared. I'm also beta testing a game that has an intriguing business model. I'll probably beta test more games too, if I think the developer has a passion for their game and a respect for the people who will use it.
I have been doing some research and I'm curious, do you think you would still be playing UO if they hadn't drastically changed it?
For me yes since Uogamers free sever is still the most active game I play. I never log into the game feeling I must grind to do something, or reach the next level. The social aspect that is actually in-game is awesome and i never feel like I am doing the same thing all the time only to reach an end that is unfullfilling. Basically a free sever that has an average of 800 people logged in, is more fun to me then these new mmos with thousands logged in, all doing the same grind work.
You speak for me as well, Ohatro.
The things you speak about are things I've been trying to say for awhile now. And I--like you and everyone here--believe the genre is not exciting anymore.
For years and years, developers have been cutting out all the "boring" things like travel, crafting, and housing to get people into the "exciting" things faster...and that means combat. But by doing so, they've basically painted themselves into a corner.
Because by offering nothing but fast action combat, they've made combat boring. And when combat is boring, there's no place where a developer can go to make the game more exciting. Sure, they can make harder MOBs, but that's basically the same MOB with different math underpinning it and a different model.
The only reason we are able to sit through a 90 minute film is because the fast-paced scenes are interspersed with slow scenes. But what happens when you take away all the slow scenes? You get a meaningless mess that makes people wonder after awhile, "what's the point of what I'm watching?"
I suspect this is why all of us here are burned out, and I expect it to get much worse in the next few years.
See, the best films--like the best games--aren't the ones who do the fast-paced and action-packed scenes well. I mean, there's only so many ways you can blow stuff up and kill people. After awhile, it gets old...and it gets older the more the film relies on it.
The best films--like the best games--are games that do the slow scenes well. That's what I think will get us back.
You say that the best films do the slow scenes well, I disagree to a point. It's all about balance. Good slow scenes interspersed between action/drama scenes. Too many slow scenes and the film starts to drag on. Too many action/drama scenes and the story doesn't make much sense. Humans like balance, so the perfect film combines these two.
I think this is what happened to the MMO genre (the mainstream that is). They went the complete opposite direction of the old MMOs and made things very quick and easy. The old MMOs had far too many time sinks. But if a developer was to balance the old style with this new, fast-paced style, I think they would have a winner.
The games generally do a good job with the "fast action" parts. The problem is that they'd rather cut out all the slow parts than make the slow parts better.
It isn't, in my opinion, a matter of quantity of the slow play. More timesinks that aren't very well done isn't going to make the games better. Rather, it's a matter of the quality of the slow play, which is something the developers these days seem incapable of doing.
Their solution--and the solution that isn't working-- is to cut all the slow parts out (like travel, crafting, roleplay, etc.), so that all that is left are the "action packed" parts (aka, combat). But to me, and probably a lot of us here, this solution doesn't make the game more "action packed." It simply makes the "action packed" elements boring and monotinous.
Depth is something we rarely understand here at MMORPG. But if we think about it, what makes an entertainment experience deep has very little to do with the action packed stuff. The explosions and stunts may be exciting, but they aren't "deep." The depth of a movie or game has more to do with the things that happen between the action-packed segments. What is going on there in the games we have today?
Not much. Which is why the games get old quickly.
I am surprised anyone read that post at all, hehe. Looks like you and I are in the same mind Beatnik59, and I would suspect more people as well, they just havent over-analyzed as drastically as i have. I guess since I play those other games that have tedious things and are niche, I saw this connection easier.
But they are niche, and so am I. I think as long as these games cost more than 50 million to make, and the focus groups keep telling them combat, combat combat, this is what we will get. So mmorpgs have become action games, and I really dont blame them. i wouldnt spend 50 milion, and pray i break even if I was running SOE or EA. I think even if they made the tedious things easier or better, they would not attract the action gamers to that genre of game. To keep with my other analogy with flight sims, Jane's tried this with Jane's USAF 10 years ago. That game flopped, and there was a noticeable absense of sim games for years after. That dumbing down didnt attract new pilots at all ( because it was still tedious flying ) and the old pilots hated the easiness of the game. So if SOE somehow comes up with a way to make travel ( thereby allowing for great exploration again ) fun, well its stil travelling. Action gamers, which this genre is now, don't want it. I dont feel that a good crafting system or other social elements can exist in a loot-driven, raid for better loot, game. And housing or other social elements like SWG dancers or whatever, well, they arent exactly action either.
Using your movie analogy, I saw Heat the other day, one of my favourite movies. It had alot of great slow scenes as you said, even though it is a violent, action movie. I think the best scenes are the bank robbery, all action, but also that scene where Pacino meets Deniro in the coffee shop. Great, serious movie. So I looked it up, and it is not even close to box office stardom. The top 100 box office grossing films absolutely dwarf it by hundreds of milions of dollars. If you look at the list, its easy to see what style of movies dominate. Its films that attract very wide audiences, like Titanic, Harry Potter, or comic book movies. Seems like i am niche in everything.
So for expensive video games, what is the largest audience companies are trying to pursue? I think xbox types and general action gamers. Certainly not the niche market of old mmorpgs. So what we have had for years, are action games in this genre. And I dont think this will change. There are great innovations coming, like SWTOR. But they are innovating the action mmorpgs out now, and all they are really doing is making the level grind less tedious by replacing boring quests with a complete heroic story experience. So its still this action game style. There are games coming out that will try to have those old systems in place, but they are being made by unknown, therefore underfunded, companies. This means they will be buggy, and open to attack by people who hate virtual worlds, even though they mistake what they are. For example, I loved SWG, but I can give you 3 pages of things that didnt work or were tedious. There are no rose coloured glasses here. But they didnt have to remove those system entirely, they should have improved them.
People always cite those games as failures because of the tedious systems, not realising that it was more the implementation of those systems, not the idea of those systems. For a niche game, pre-WoW, 350 000 subscribers 7 months after launch is hardly a failure. But those people were waiting for the systems to be fixed, which was supposed to happen. We know the rest after that... To me, there is a big difference between an action mmorpg, and the virtual worlds that were tried before. Its not the same game, but they are lumped into the same category. Because like i said before, even within these separate categories, there are debatable styles and systems. ie I personally like virtual worlds, but I dont like corpse runs, ffa pvp or no quests, which those games are somehow the definition of just that.
Ohatro
............good grief. Talk about being too into video games in the first place.
It's cause since 2004 mmorpgs havn't evolved.
I remember in 2003 we had Horizons, Planetside, Shadowbane?, Star Wars Galaxies and EVE Online all offering such vastly different experience and evolving the genre in one way.
Now it's WoW clone after WoW clone.
On the other hand we also have shooters, more shooters and even more shooters. But some of them are still a lot of fun to play. Personally I feel that many of the MMORPG games released recently were not-so-great games after all. MMORPGs are the big thing. So many companies throw their MMORPG to the market to get a peace of the cake. Many of them felt like a quick rush even though the development time took quite some time. But writing lots of words on a paper doesn't guarantee a great story. I mean, the game concept/design of many recent MMORPGs feels like this:
Ok, let's make a MMORPG.
First we need classes. Of course tank, DPS and healer classes. Everyone knows them. Everyone loves them.
And, uhm, we need levels. Yes, of course. Let's say 50 or so. This allows us to add new content by simply rising the level cap. In order to level up players need to grind, erm sorry, collect experience points by doing, uhm, quests.
And, well, we need items. Lots of items. We sell it as "character customization". Add some dyes and we can sell it as ultimate character customization features.
Ah, and we need to keep players busy in the long run. Easy, that one. Add some randomly generated daily quests and some dungeons that offer the best loot in the game. That should keep our players busy for some time. From time to time we can just release new dungeons for even better gear. Easy to implement, no further thoughts required. So let's start development already!
Cool, when will the game be ready for release?
This is exaggerated, I know. But you get the idea. What I really miss is either a) true virtual worlds or b) solid game designs and not some random stuff thrown together.
I think I understand how you are feeling. I got my start in this genre with WoW and then EVE a few years later. Maybe because of my late start in MMORPGs I don't quite understand the hostility towards WoW but I do appreciate the burnout. I want to start an amazing MMORPG that will shock my senses and suck me in, something true to the sentiment of "warcrack".
I think what is hardest is that WoW was so amazing to me that when I come across games that are similar to it in style I lose interest fast. I gave EVE a try and it just felt too slow. Intelligent, well-designed, and no swords or fireballs is fantastic but just not enough for me. I want something that is the same but different. I really hope that the new Star Wars and/or Star Trek deliver but in the meantime... I don't know, maybe I just want to see more of the same but re-built from the ground up turning concepts and scenarios that work on their head.
I guess I'm just bored. If you find something please let me know.
Ahh how I miss the ol' UO days (Baja! / TAA/tDw!).
I think part of the problem is that there really isn't anything like UO anymore. We keep getting these themeparks, and honestly, once you've played one you've pretty much played them all.
That isn't to say that I haven't been keeping my self at least partial entertained in MMOs like LotRO, or the AION beta ... it's just, well, they are not UO ... :P.
*Edit* I partially blame the success of EQ. If UO would have been the top dog we'd have a lot more sandboxes to play in.
MMO Strategy Guides
you got bored , burned out simple answer to me (thats what i admit ) .
you got a feel of ' BAH' and thats the time to take i break imo
MMO genre take slow steps towards orginality and uniqueness , bc the this is a risky market and Devs rather keep it on the safe side than evolving something outta the known pattern
I was like this before too. I stopped playing when I went into college. I didn't have much time and I also realized that it's better to spend it with other things (friends, hang around, etc.). But after I've graduated, I had this feeling that I miss MMORPGs heheh. There was nostalgia when I saw a ragnarok character as i was browsing the net. So I played it again and it felt nice. There are just times when you get tired of playing (which is sometimes good, so you can focus on other things for a change), But I tell you, the urge to play comes back in time (for ne at least).
Yeah Ive gotten bored too. My guild is the only reason I still play WAR. Im gonna give AoC a with the trial downloading right now but. I might resub to wow for the hell of it as I like the story but over all the genre I looked most forward to playing everyday has become stale to me.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
ITs because of mmorpg inflation if you will. The advertising just isnt there when it needs to be. ITs like there wasnt much advertising for cars when they first came out, because everyone was using horses to get around. But now, thats all you see, it car advertisments because everyone uses one. When mmorpgs first came out there didnt need to be any advertising for them because it was a new thing, and it was fun any way. Now that the market is inflated , there needs to be advertising to keep peoples interest while playing it, witch it defently hasnt done, for me either. I dont watch tv , so i cant say that there is some or none there, but like magaznines or something would be benifitial. I used to purchase a magazine called massive witch was a mmorpg magazine, then out of the frikin blue, swosh, its pulled like it never existed. If you can get your hands on some advertising it makes all the differenece in something being enjoyable or not, at least for mmorpgs is concerned.