It takes an incredible amount of time and money to make a "QUALITY" MMORPG.To make a single player game is MUCH easier ,yo ucan eliminate a lot of hard work and content.Single player setups also are usually linear ,again a simpler design.
The MMO part ,seems to be the emphasis for all develoeprs nowadays because it is still the trend and garners a lot more potential buyers.
I can honestly say,that if i was hired to manage the direction and design of a new MMO,i would expect to be in for many headaches lasting over several years 5+.This is why we will continue to see such half assed efforts from most developers,they cannot afford the time[investors/cost] and cannot afford the manpower[again cost].
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This thread wins the 2009 /fail award. It is confirmed, you and your friends can fly your ships around together for PvP and PvE, and you can beam down and do Away missions together. And some Away missions are on ships, meaning that ship interiors are part of the mission system at this time. And the devs are looking at adding player ship interiors later, plus adding more races over time. This is because they're a bit busy putting THOUSANDS of worlds into the game, each one with missions and other things to do. It's a big job. This beats every other spaceship Sci-Fi MMO game out there now, or that is coming out in the near future. SWG does have space and ground play, and even multiplayer ships, but it's also an SOE doornail-dumb grindfest, which STO (imho) will not be. Bottom line, if you're so disappointed - why come here and post? Just don't play it. That's even easier than venting all of your broken dreams on a game forum.
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Thank you for defining "Fun" for everyone else based on your views of what is fun. I have a little news flash for you, different people find different things fun. So while you may find being the captain fun, there are other people out there who would find being the Science officer on-board a ship crewed by their friends just as fun.
This thread wins the 2009 /fail award. It is confirmed, you and your friends can fly your ships around together for PvP and PvE, and you can beam down and do Away missions together. And some Away missions are on ships, meaning that ship interiors are part of the mission system at this time. And the devs are looking at adding player ship interiors later, plus adding more races over time. This is because they're a bit busy putting THOUSANDS of worlds into the game, each one with missions and other things to do. It's a big job. This beats every other spaceship Sci-Fi MMO game out there now, or that is coming out in the near future. SWG does have space and ground play, and even multiplayer ships, but it's also an SOE doornail-dumb grindfest, which STO (imho) will not be. Bottom line, if you're so disappointed - why come here and post? Just don't play it. That's even easier than venting all of your broken dreams on a game forum.
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Thank you for defining "Fun" for everyone else based on your views of what is fun. I have a little news flash for you, different people find different things fun. So while you may find being the captain fun, there are other people out there who would find being the Science officer on-board a ship crewed by their friends just as fun.
A game where you sit around picking your nose 90% of the time waiting for someone else to give you something to do (The PC Captain) sounds like loads of fun. I'm all for optional player crews when they can figure out how to make them 100% fun for everyone involved but if they can't do this I hope they don't bother. If I'm on a crew I want all of my actions to matter and not be stuck playing some meaningless mini-game just to keep me busy. Please Cryptic for the sake of all that is decent... NO MINI GAMES!!! If I wanted to be on a mini game crew I'd go play the sucktastic Puzzle Pirates. I absolutely don't want that in STO for any reason!
I'm starting to warm up to this idea of alt MMOs. While you wait for that one MMO to make your main, you can geek out in theese smaller, more single player oriented Theme Park experiences. Some will make it their home, some will make it a stop, but it's a new universe to explore for a while.
I plan to play both TOR and this, I don't plan to stay there, I plan to come back and experience the stories at the begining and in oncoming expansions.
To the OP, do you really believe it'd be "Fun" for anyone to be a "Cook" on a Star Trek vessel? Or even science officer? Engineer? Have you even thought about how you would make those FUN things for people to do on hours on end?
[Mod Edit]
No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say it would be forced. I asked how in the hell could it be fun to be a science officer or engineer or cook for hours on end. That's a "Crew" is it not? If not those positions, insert any others you feel like. Now make them entertaining for everyone.
Sure, different types of gameplay sounds great. Now make it fun. Explain how you'd make each position YOU want to be playable to be fun. That's easy right? You're bashing Cryptic for not doing it, so it has to be something within your powers to describe and flesh out.
There are lots of ways to make mini-games for these activities fun, take a look around this site and you will find games that do that. You brought in the idea of 'cook' and 50 people crews, which the OP never mentioned. Captianing a ship in real life is extremely boring, and doing the same on a starship would most likely be extremely boring. Yet, you and the people at Cryptic are under the impression that can be made fun, so why can't other activities that you think of as boring (I enjoy cooking) be made fun?
To the OP, do you really believe it'd be "Fun" for anyone to be a "Cook" on a Star Trek vessel? Or even science officer? Engineer? Have you even thought about how you would make those FUN things for people to do on hours on end?
[Mod Edit]
No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say it would be forced. I asked how in the hell could it be fun to be a science officer or engineer or cook for hours on end. That's a "Crew" is it not? If not those positions, insert any others you feel like. Now make them entertaining for everyone.
Sure, different types of gameplay sounds great. Now make it fun. Explain how you'd make each position YOU want to be playable to be fun. That's easy right? You're bashing Cryptic for not doing it, so it has to be something within your powers to describe and flesh out.
There are lots of ways to make mini-games for these activities fun, take a look around this site and you will find games that do that. You brought in the idea of 'cook' and 50 people crews, which the OP never mentioned. Captianing a ship in real life is extremely boring, and doing the same on a starship would most likely be extremely boring. Yet, you and the people at Cryptic are under the impression that can be made fun, so why can't other activities that you think of as boring (I enjoy cooking) be made fun?
Puzzle Pirates can do it, so can STO :P
The only problem with this is Puzzle Pirates sucks balls because of the totally meaningless mini games... LOL
To the OP, do you really believe it'd be "Fun" for anyone to be a "Cook" on a Star Trek vessel? Or even science officer? Engineer? Have you even thought about how you would make those FUN things for people to do on hours on end?
[Mod Edit]
No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say it would be forced. I asked how in the hell could it be fun to be a science officer or engineer or cook for hours on end. That's a "Crew" is it not? If not those positions, insert any others you feel like. Now make them entertaining for everyone.
Sure, different types of gameplay sounds great. Now make it fun. Explain how you'd make each position YOU want to be playable to be fun. That's easy right? You're bashing Cryptic for not doing it, so it has to be something within your powers to describe and flesh out.
There are lots of ways to make mini-games for these activities fun, take a look around this site and you will find games that do that. You brought in the idea of 'cook' and 50 people crews, which the OP never mentioned. Captianing a ship in real life is extremely boring, and doing the same on a starship would most likely be extremely boring. Yet, you and the people at Cryptic are under the impression that can be made fun, so why can't other activities that you think of as boring (I enjoy cooking) be made fun?
Puzzle Pirates can do it, so can STO :P
The only problem with this is Puzzle Pirates sucks balls because of the totally meaningless mini games... LOL
This thread wins the 2009 /fail award. It is confirmed, you and your friends can fly your ships around together for PvP and PvE, and you can beam down and do Away missions together. And some Away missions are on ships, meaning that ship interiors are part of the mission system at this time. And the devs are looking at adding player ship interiors later, plus adding more races over time. This is because they're a bit busy putting THOUSANDS of worlds into the game, each one with missions and other things to do. It's a big job. This beats every other spaceship Sci-Fi MMO game out there now, or that is coming out in the near future. SWG does have space and ground play, and even multiplayer ships, but it's also an SOE doornail-dumb grindfest, which STO (imho) will not be. Bottom line, if you're so disappointed - why come here and post? Just don't play it. That's even easier than venting all of your broken dreams on a game forum.
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Thank you for defining "Fun" for everyone else based on your views of what is fun. I have a little news flash for you, different people find different things fun. So while you may find being the captain fun, there are other people out there who would find being the Science officer on-board a ship crewed by their friends just as fun.
A game where you sit around picking your nose 90% of the time waiting for someone else to give you something to do (The PC Captain) sounds like loads of fun. I'm all for optional player crews when they can figure out how to make them 100% fun for everyone involved but if they can't do this I hope they don't bother. If I'm on a crew I want all of my actions to matter and not be stuck playing some meaningless mini-game just to keep me busy. Please Cryptic for the sake of all that is decent... NO MINI GAMES!!! If I wanted to be on a mini game crew I'd go play the sucktastic Puzzle Pirates. I absolutely don't want that in STO for any reason!
Bren
Well said. When I play a game, I like to be in control of what is going on. It would suck if as captain the only thing I could do in game was bark orders at people. I'm glad that some people enjoy playing a game where all you do is sit around an engine room or helm station, but I doubt there is enough of them to sustain a large enough subsrciption base to keep the game going.
Wow, you guys really lack imagination about how the different major positions aboard a starship could be as fun/interesting (if not more) then the Captain. Maybe if your talking the barber/cook...ok.... but the major positions there is a ton of stuff they could be doing?
Lets see off the top of my head....
Science Officer - Combat... Sensor Scans of enemy vessels, trying to obtain detailed info on status of other ships.
Non-Combat ... Long Range Scans of nearby star-systems, charting space. RESEARCH... identifying compounds found on away missions, combining compunds to make new ones, finding USES for discovered compounds, Analysis of tricorder readings taken on away missions.
Engineering Officer - Combat.... Power routing/tweaking, damage control procedures
NonCombat..... There is (should be) ALWAYS stuff to fix aboard a ship. Mechanical things do tend to wear/breakdown over time. And this could involve not just the ship itself, but shuttle-craft and personal equipment (tricorders, hand phasers, etc). Furthermore if nothings broken, there should be ways to tweak/refit systems to get better efficiency out of them on a permanent basis. Furthermore FABRICATION of new equipment/devices....and Design of new devices/equipment (based on discoveries made by Science Officers Research).
Non-Combat.... On bigger vessels you have several hundred crew people (NPC's) of different races stuck together in a tin can for months on end.... You trying to tell me there ARENT going to be people doing things they are not supposed to? Plus you've got a huge ship to check to make sure it's secure. On top of that Trek has this wonderfull device that can be used for combat (ship & personal) training simulations... called a Holodeck.
Medical Officer - Combat.... treat casualties
Non-Combat.... You got several hundred crew of different races, going to all sorts of strange worlds... You telling me there is NOT going to be work to keep them healthy and SANE. On top of that you've got Medical Research..... identify and understand new biological species from the worlds you visit (along with the Science Officer).... Diagnose New diseases... Discover new/better cures and medicines (in coordination with compounds discovered by Science).
Heck... even Communications Officer - Combat ... Feed the Captain communications from other ships in the Fleet and other crew aboard his own ship (PC & NPC) so that they have enough meaningfull information to base decisions on. Work ECM to confound enemy sensor locks.
Non-Combat..... Monitor the "chatter" on Fleet/Civilian channels to be aware of what's going on in the "galaxy" at that time....and keep the CO informed of important unfolding events.
That's with me spending only about 10 minutes thinking about it. There is a TON of stuff that the other MAJOR positions aboard a starship COULD do that would be interesting.
Wow, you guys really lack imagination about how the different major positions aboard a starship could be as fun/interesting (if not more) then the Captain. Maybe if your talking the barber/cook...ok.... but the major positions there is a ton of stuff they could be doing? Lets see off the top of my head....
Science Officer - Combat... Sensor Scans of enemy vessels, trying to obtain detailed info on status of other ships. Non-Combat ... Long Range Scans of nearby star-systems, charting space. RESEARCH... identifying compounds found on away missions, combining compunds to make new ones, finding USES for discovered compounds, Analysis of tricorder readings taken on away missions.
Engineering Officer - Combat.... Power routing/tweaking, damage control procedures NonCombat..... There is (should be) ALWAYS stuff to fix aboard a ship. Mechanical things do tend to wear/breakdown over time. And this could involve not just the ship itself, but shuttle-craft and personal equipment (tricorders, hand phasers, etc). Furthermore if nothings broken, there should be ways to tweak/refit systems to get better efficiency out of them on a permanent basis. Furthermore FABRICATION of new equipment/devices....and Design of new devices/equipment (based on discoveries made by Science Officers Research).
Security/Tactical - Combat.... Controling weapons & shields, boarding actions Non-Combat.... On bigger vessels you have several hundred crew people (NPC's) of different races stuck together in a tin can for months on end.... You trying to tell me there ARENT going to be people doing things they are not supposed to? Plus you've got a huge ship to check to make sure it's secure. On top of that Trek has this wonderfull device that can be used for combat (ship & personal) training simulations... called a Holodeck.
Medical Officer - Combat.... treat casualties Non-Combat.... You got several hundred crew of different races, going to all sorts of strange worlds... You telling me there is NOT going to be work to keep them healthy and SANE. On top of that you've got Medical Research..... identify and understand new biological species from the worlds you visit (along with the Science Officer).... Diagnose New diseases... Discover new/better cures and medicines (in coordination with compounds discovered by Science).
Heck... even Communications Officer - Combat ... Feed the Captain communications from other ships in the Fleet and other crew aboard his own ship (PC & NPC) so that they have enough meaningfull information to base decisions on. Work ECM to confound enemy sensor locks. Non-Combat..... Monitor the "chatter" on Fleet/Civilian channels to be aware of what's going on in the "galaxy" at that time....and keep the CO informed of important unfolding events.
That's with me spending only about 10 minutes thinking about it. There is a TON of stuff that the other MAJOR positions aboard a starship COULD do that would be interesting.
Wow, that all sounds great but I live in a little place I like to call the real world and don't want to wait 25 years while they put all of that into a game. People seem to have a lot of great Ideas when it comes to their own little personal fantasy game but they don't seem to realize the massive amount of work it would be to incorporate all of that into a single game. Let them get a game that works first that we can actually play and then maybe add some of this over time. What you are proposing here would work but it would be such a massive undertaking that no developer in their right mind would attempt to make such a game.
A MMO is a massive undertaking to begin with but adding something like this on top of that would take forever to produce. They are already essentially making 2 full MMOs... A space MMO and a ground MMO with the massive amounts of content that both games will need to survive. You are proposing that they make 5-6 more full games on top of that that are somehow all seamlessly interwoven together. It would be an impossibly huge undertaking and would take many many years to produce such a game. It's not as simple as you seem to think.
Unfortunately, you are confusing Role with Function. You can't build a game around Function because it's (A) imposible to balance and (B) reinventing the wheel when the wheel is working just fine.
So what is a Role. In the modern MMORPG their are only 3 roles. Tank, DPS, Healer. This works just fine even outside of the Fantasy genre. So why fix something that's not broken?
While the Medical officer "function" sounds good on paper, the overwhelming response has been that the audience does not want mini games. People wants direct interaction with the enemy (ie ships) and interaction with the main environment (space). A Medical officer is not a Role, it's not even a function. It's a sub-function that would be part of a job that does multiple functions while filling a role.
If you really want to role play being a science officer or an engineering technician on a star ship, there are plenty of nerd-filled chat rooms just waiting for you!
But don't dilude yourselves into thinking that type of thing is mainstream or that the rest of us will enjoy it.
Additionally, a MMORPG should be about competition, and not just wasting your time in an animated chatroom.
I gotta call ya on that claim. Where in the hells does it say a MMORPG is about competition? PvP (or RvR) might be, but believe it or not, MMOs have something called PvE. Where is the competition part? Spawn camping? Racing to the top level?
I've enjoyed MMOs for over a decade and have never once felt like I was "competing".
This thread wins the 2009 /fail award. It is confirmed, you and your friends can fly your ships around together for PvP and PvE, and you can beam down and do Away missions together. And some Away missions are on ships, meaning that ship interiors are part of the mission system at this time. And the devs are looking at adding player ship interiors later, plus adding more races over time. This is because they're a bit busy putting THOUSANDS of worlds into the game, each one with missions and other things to do. It's a big job. This beats every other spaceship Sci-Fi MMO game out there now, or that is coming out in the near future. SWG does have space and ground play, and even multiplayer ships, but it's also an SOE doornail-dumb grindfest, which STO (imho) will not be. Bottom line, if you're so disappointed - why come here and post? Just don't play it. That's even easier than venting all of your broken dreams on a game forum.
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Totally agree. You can't please some people, they will complain there isn't enough no matter how much they have. Best to just ignore the whiners and stick to the things that are proven to work best for gamers in general not just the loud screaming fanbois.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
1) Bren putting in that stuff is NOT that Hercuelean of a task. I playing an indie developed Sci Fi game right now that has the majority of that stuff working in game right now. If 7 developers working in their spare time on a shoe string budget can accomplish that..... then a developer with a multi-million dollar budget can do it too.
Whether they CHOOSE to put resources toward that or not... is another story... but it's certainly not an insurmountable hurdle.
I work in the Tech industry, I know the amount of work that goes into accomplishing certain things/
2) Vanilla is certainly a fine flavor of ice cream... I like it alot...but I also like strawberry and chocolate and mocha chip.
The Tank, Healer, DPS paradigm is fine.. it works...it's tried and true...it's popular (though not really sure how well it translates into ship vs ship combat).... but it's NOT the ONLY functional way to do roles in game.... trust me on that. Heck there are MMO's that don't even HAVE combat.
It's nice to have a little variety out there. There are even role paradigms that even fit different genres (like Star Trek or Sci Fi)... MUCH BETTER then Tank, Healer, DPS.... I'm sorry some of you guys can't see that.
3) Different people have different tastes.... some people like ketchup on thier fries...others like mayo.... You ask some of the ketchup lovers about putting mayo on fries they are going to call it the worst travesty ever.
That's all that's going on here. Some people love the direction Cryptic is taking...others hate it. The people who hate it are just expressing thier opinion and providing some explantion about how things COULD be done differently....that doesn't mean that we are whining or think we are entitled to change how they are doing it. Thats all.
I am going to play Devil's Advocate and give Grumpy some cover. "Now they have two targets to fire at.."
First, the idea that STO will take forever to make if interactive interiors were put in place and Cryptic is already working on another MMO I say gimme a break. Cryptic didn't need to take on such a massive IP. They chose to invest to do so. That being done, there is nothing wrong with fans to offer what would make STO an exceptional MMO experience. Perpetual got a ton of grief for the Starship Interior issue and now Cryptic is simply putting aloe on that sunburn to tell us in essence, "perhaps in an expansion we will do that."
For those that don't understand why people who don't intend on playing STO yet posting on forum boards. People arent complaining because they don't like the game. They are upset because the like the idea of a STO. They just don't like the direction the game development is going. Developers are human and always like to claim they listen to the players. So gamers do what they can until the game comes out - they voice their opinion.
We Interior fans understand your reservations. My question is What would make Star Trek Online different than the MMO game that has expired -Earth and Beyond? Player avatar customization? Beam down instances that remind us of City of Heroes missions? Is this all Cryptic needs to do? Slap a Star Trek skin on Earth and Beyond and you will buy it?
Personally I thought they could go the extra mile. Many games already have automated NPCs which you can assign roles to fill in for human gamers. I always thought COH had one of the best LFG systems out there. Pick up groups were fun. Task forces were fun and easy to get involved in. I thought you can look outside the box, make your ship a dynamic "Lair" which provided more than housing and travel , but missions, combat entertainment, etc.
Ok, enough being a nice guy. Cryptic aint gonna listen.
I am going to play Devil's Advocate and give Grumpy some cover. "Now they have two targets to fire at.." First, the idea that STO will take forever to make if interactive interiors were put in place and Cryptic is already working on another MMO I say gimme a break. Cryptic didn't need to take on such a massive IP. They chose to invest to do so. That being done, there is nothing wrong with fans to offer what would make STO an exceptional MMO experience. Perpetual got a ton of grief for the Starship Interior issue and now Cryptic is simply putting aloe on that sunburn to tell us in essence, "perhaps in an expansion we will do that." For those that don't understand why people who don't intend on playing STO yet posting on forum boards. People arent complaining because they don't like the game. They are upset because the like the idea of a STO. They just don't like the direction the game development is going. Developers are human and always like to claim they listen to the players. So gamers do what they can until the game comes out - they voice their opinion. We Interior fans understand your reservations. My question is What would make Star Trek Online different than the MMO game that has expired -Earth and Beyond? Player avatar customization? Beam down instances that remind us of City of Heroes missions? Is this all Cryptic needs to do? Slap a Star Trek skin on Earth and Beyond and you will buy it? Personally I thought they could go the extra mile. Many games already have automated NPCs which you can assign roles to fill in for human gamers. I always thought COH had one of the best LFG systems out there. Pick up groups were fun. Task forces were fun and easy to get involved in. I thought you can look outside the box, make your ship a dynamic "Lair" which provided more than housing and travel , but missions, combat entertainment, etc. Ok, enough being a nice guy. Cryptic aint gonna listen.
Cryptic listen's with their balance statements, the same way all the developers do. They're smart enough to know that catering to a few hardcore whiners isn't the way to make a financially successful game.
Reading these forums all the time leads me to one thought process, if I were a developer I wouldn't even announce my game until beta. Only for the fact that then people sit there and say no do this, no do that, no that idea sucks do this not that. All the players think their ideas are the best, all the players think the direction is wrong. But then tons of people play the games anyways. Just save the headache and start only announcing games right before beta so you can get some applications in.
Reading these forums all the time leads me to one thought process, if I were a developer I wouldn't even announce my game until beta. Only for the fact that then people sit there and say no do this, no do that, no that idea sucks do this not that. All the players think their ideas are the best, all the players think the direction is wrong. But then tons of people play the games anyways. Just save the headache and start only announcing games right before beta so you can get some applications in.
Well said. Player hype is worse then companies saying what they "plan" to put ingame.
I am going to play Devil's Advocate and give Grumpy some cover. "Now they have two targets to fire at.." First, the idea that STO will take forever to make if interactive interiors were put in place and Cryptic is already working on another MMO I say gimme a break. Cryptic didn't need to take on such a massive IP. They chose to invest to do so. That being done, there is nothing wrong with fans to offer what would make STO an exceptional MMO experience. Perpetual got a ton of grief for the Starship Interior issue and now Cryptic is simply putting aloe on that sunburn to tell us in essence, "perhaps in an expansion we will do that." For those that don't understand why people who don't intend on playing STO yet posting on forum boards. People arent complaining because they don't like the game. They are upset because the like the idea of a STO. They just don't like the direction the game development is going. Developers are human and always like to claim they listen to the players. So gamers do what they can until the game comes out - they voice their opinion. We Interior fans understand your reservations. My question is What would make Star Trek Online different than the MMO game that has expired -Earth and Beyond? Player avatar customization? Beam down instances that remind us of City of Heroes missions? Is this all Cryptic needs to do? Slap a Star Trek skin on Earth and Beyond and you will buy it? Personally I thought they could go the extra mile. Many games already have automated NPCs which you can assign roles to fill in for human gamers. I always thought COH had one of the best LFG systems out there. Pick up groups were fun. Task forces were fun and easy to get involved in. I thought you can look outside the box, make your ship a dynamic "Lair" which provided more than housing and travel , but missions, combat entertainment, etc. Ok, enough being a nice guy. Cryptic aint gonna listen.
Cryptic listen's with their balance statements, the same way all the developers do. They're smart enough to know that catering to a few hardcore whiners isn't the way to make a financially successful game.
They have no "balance statements" for STO yet....as the game hasn't been released yet (not even in Beta). They won't have until it goes to production..... what they have is an educated guess, just like the makers of LOTRO and WOW.... but also like the makers of Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, Matrix Online, etc..
Whether their guess was a good one or not..... won't be known until a few months after the game launches and they see what their sales and retention rates are actually like.
Even then they won't really know whether the direction they took was the BEST one or simply good enough.... as they wouldn't know what kind of profits they might have made going a different route.
So drop the attitude.... because you are no more of an "expert" then anyone else posting here.
Reading these forums all the time leads me to one thought process, if I were a developer I wouldn't even announce my game until beta. Only for the fact that then people sit there and say no do this, no do that, no that idea sucks do this not that. All the players think their ideas are the best, all the players think the direction is wrong. But then tons of people play the games anyways. Just save the headache and start only announcing games right before beta so you can get some applications in.
Believe me, it's not a head-ache for them. It may be a head-ache for the marketing/pr guys.... but for the Dev's it's actualy somewhat useful..... unless their the high-strung type.
Feedback from your potential audience on design concepts is always useful for a Product Developer. You just take it for what it is...... different people have different preferences and different ideas about what they would like to see in a game.
As long as people post in a semi-respectful and semi-intelligent manner... it's ALL good. That doesn't mean they are going to let it rule what they do....or just because Joe Schmoe thinks idea X "sucks" that they are going to change something. They put everything through a filter. It's good to think about different options for creating a product..... and it can be good to throw some stuff out there and see what the different criticisms are. Again, it doesn't rule what you .....but it gives you things to think about.... you just have to have a somewhat thick hide.
The space-battles will be like playing Freelancer and the ground-missions will be like playing Mass Effect.
This is why I've decided to only visit this site occasionally.
The posters here are so far off when it comes to what gamers want it's fucking insane.
Real gamers would cream in thier pants for a game that combined Freelancer and Mass Effect.
Not to mention that this game has been called a copy of Eve,WOW,Pirates of the Burning Sea,Earth and Beyond, City of Heroes etc.by some folks here before BETA has even been announced. Basically, they have this image of what the perfect MMO is and if any game in development doesn't meet their grand expectations,which so far has been all of them, they call it a clone of something else.
The space-battles will be like playing Freelancer and the ground-missions will be like playing Mass Effect.
This is why I've decided to only visit this site occasionally.
The posters here are so far off when it comes to what gamers want it's fucking insane.
Real gamers would cream in thier pants for a game that combined Freelancer and Mass Effect.
Not to mention that this game has been called a copy of Eve,WOW,Pirates of the Burning Sea,Earth and Beyond, City of Heroes etc.by some folks here before BETA has even been announced. Basically, they have this image of what the perfect MMO is and if any game in development doesn't meet their grand expectations,which so far has been all of them, they call it a clone of something else.
Its no different here than any other thread of any other game. Carebear, WOW clone and on and on. Personally ground combat like Mass Effect would not be so bad in my eyes.
Everything I've seen so far from Cryptic would suggest that this is just another MMO. But we are talking about Star Trek here. Its first real MMO should raise the MMO bar a little bit, but instead it just seems to being playing it safe. Besides, Cryptic has missed the essense of what Star Trek is all about. 4000 varied starships flying about the alpha quadrant is NOT Star Trek.
While this game will probably look cool, and might even be more entertaining then EVE or any other recent Space MMO it will lack the true Star Trek soul I think.
Comments
It takes an incredible amount of time and money to make a "QUALITY" MMORPG.To make a single player game is MUCH easier ,yo ucan eliminate a lot of hard work and content.Single player setups also are usually linear ,again a simpler design.
The MMO part ,seems to be the emphasis for all develoeprs nowadays because it is still the trend and garners a lot more potential buyers.
I can honestly say,that if i was hired to manage the direction and design of a new MMO,i would expect to be in for many headaches lasting over several years 5+.This is why we will continue to see such half assed efforts from most developers,they cannot afford the time[investors/cost] and cannot afford the manpower[again cost].
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Thank you for defining "Fun" for everyone else based on your views of what is fun. I have a little news flash for you, different people find different things fun. So while you may find being the captain fun, there are other people out there who would find being the Science officer on-board a ship crewed by their friends just as fun.
I didn't say tetris/bejeweled aren't fun
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Thank you for defining "Fun" for everyone else based on your views of what is fun. I have a little news flash for you, different people find different things fun. So while you may find being the captain fun, there are other people out there who would find being the Science officer on-board a ship crewed by their friends just as fun.
A game where you sit around picking your nose 90% of the time waiting for someone else to give you something to do (The PC Captain) sounds like loads of fun. I'm all for optional player crews when they can figure out how to make them 100% fun for everyone involved but if they can't do this I hope they don't bother. If I'm on a crew I want all of my actions to matter and not be stuck playing some meaningless mini-game just to keep me busy. Please Cryptic for the sake of all that is decent... NO MINI GAMES!!! If I wanted to be on a mini game crew I'd go play the sucktastic Puzzle Pirates. I absolutely don't want that in STO for any reason!
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I'm starting to warm up to this idea of alt MMOs. While you wait for that one MMO to make your main, you can geek out in theese smaller, more single player oriented Theme Park experiences. Some will make it their home, some will make it a stop, but it's a new universe to explore for a while.
I plan to play both TOR and this, I don't plan to stay there, I plan to come back and experience the stories at the begining and in oncoming expansions.
[Mod Edit]
No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say it would be forced. I asked how in the hell could it be fun to be a science officer or engineer or cook for hours on end. That's a "Crew" is it not? If not those positions, insert any others you feel like. Now make them entertaining for everyone.
Sure, different types of gameplay sounds great. Now make it fun. Explain how you'd make each position YOU want to be playable to be fun. That's easy right? You're bashing Cryptic for not doing it, so it has to be something within your powers to describe and flesh out.
There are lots of ways to make mini-games for these activities fun, take a look around this site and you will find games that do that. You brought in the idea of 'cook' and 50 people crews, which the OP never mentioned. Captianing a ship in real life is extremely boring, and doing the same on a starship would most likely be extremely boring. Yet, you and the people at Cryptic are under the impression that can be made fun, so why can't other activities that you think of as boring (I enjoy cooking) be made fun?
Puzzle Pirates can do it, so can STO :P
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
[Mod Edit]
No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say it would be forced. I asked how in the hell could it be fun to be a science officer or engineer or cook for hours on end. That's a "Crew" is it not? If not those positions, insert any others you feel like. Now make them entertaining for everyone.
Sure, different types of gameplay sounds great. Now make it fun. Explain how you'd make each position YOU want to be playable to be fun. That's easy right? You're bashing Cryptic for not doing it, so it has to be something within your powers to describe and flesh out.
There are lots of ways to make mini-games for these activities fun, take a look around this site and you will find games that do that. You brought in the idea of 'cook' and 50 people crews, which the OP never mentioned. Captianing a ship in real life is extremely boring, and doing the same on a starship would most likely be extremely boring. Yet, you and the people at Cryptic are under the impression that can be made fun, so why can't other activities that you think of as boring (I enjoy cooking) be made fun?
Puzzle Pirates can do it, so can STO :P
The only problem with this is Puzzle Pirates sucks balls because of the totally meaningless mini games... LOL
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
[Mod Edit]
No offense, but did you even read what I wrote? I didn't say it would be forced. I asked how in the hell could it be fun to be a science officer or engineer or cook for hours on end. That's a "Crew" is it not? If not those positions, insert any others you feel like. Now make them entertaining for everyone.
Sure, different types of gameplay sounds great. Now make it fun. Explain how you'd make each position YOU want to be playable to be fun. That's easy right? You're bashing Cryptic for not doing it, so it has to be something within your powers to describe and flesh out.
There are lots of ways to make mini-games for these activities fun, take a look around this site and you will find games that do that. You brought in the idea of 'cook' and 50 people crews, which the OP never mentioned. Captianing a ship in real life is extremely boring, and doing the same on a starship would most likely be extremely boring. Yet, you and the people at Cryptic are under the impression that can be made fun, so why can't other activities that you think of as boring (I enjoy cooking) be made fun?
Puzzle Pirates can do it, so can STO :P
The only problem with this is Puzzle Pirates sucks balls because of the totally meaningless mini games... LOL
Bren
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Thank you for defining "Fun" for everyone else based on your views of what is fun. I have a little news flash for you, different people find different things fun. So while you may find being the captain fun, there are other people out there who would find being the Science officer on-board a ship crewed by their friends just as fun.
A game where you sit around picking your nose 90% of the time waiting for someone else to give you something to do (The PC Captain) sounds like loads of fun. I'm all for optional player crews when they can figure out how to make them 100% fun for everyone involved but if they can't do this I hope they don't bother. If I'm on a crew I want all of my actions to matter and not be stuck playing some meaningless mini-game just to keep me busy. Please Cryptic for the sake of all that is decent... NO MINI GAMES!!! If I wanted to be on a mini game crew I'd go play the sucktastic Puzzle Pirates. I absolutely don't want that in STO for any reason!
Bren
Well said. When I play a game, I like to be in control of what is going on. It would suck if as captain the only thing I could do in game was bark orders at people. I'm glad that some people enjoy playing a game where all you do is sit around an engine room or helm station, but I doubt there is enough of them to sustain a large enough subsrciption base to keep the game going.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Wow, you guys really lack imagination about how the different major positions aboard a starship could be as fun/interesting (if not more) then the Captain. Maybe if your talking the barber/cook...ok.... but the major positions there is a ton of stuff they could be doing?
Lets see off the top of my head....
Science Officer - Combat... Sensor Scans of enemy vessels, trying to obtain detailed info on status of other ships.
Non-Combat ... Long Range Scans of nearby star-systems, charting space. RESEARCH... identifying compounds found on away missions, combining compunds to make new ones, finding USES for discovered compounds, Analysis of tricorder readings taken on away missions.
Engineering Officer - Combat.... Power routing/tweaking, damage control procedures
NonCombat..... There is (should be) ALWAYS stuff to fix aboard a ship. Mechanical things do tend to wear/breakdown over time. And this could involve not just the ship itself, but shuttle-craft and personal equipment (tricorders, hand phasers, etc). Furthermore if nothings broken, there should be ways to tweak/refit systems to get better efficiency out of them on a permanent basis. Furthermore FABRICATION of new equipment/devices....and Design of new devices/equipment (based on discoveries made by Science Officers Research).
Security/Tactical - Combat.... Controling weapons & shields, boarding actions
Non-Combat.... On bigger vessels you have several hundred crew people (NPC's) of different races stuck together in a tin can for months on end.... You trying to tell me there ARENT going to be people doing things they are not supposed to? Plus you've got a huge ship to check to make sure it's secure. On top of that Trek has this wonderfull device that can be used for combat (ship & personal) training simulations... called a Holodeck.
Medical Officer - Combat.... treat casualties
Non-Combat.... You got several hundred crew of different races, going to all sorts of strange worlds... You telling me there is NOT going to be work to keep them healthy and SANE. On top of that you've got Medical Research..... identify and understand new biological species from the worlds you visit (along with the Science Officer).... Diagnose New diseases... Discover new/better cures and medicines (in coordination with compounds discovered by Science).
Heck... even Communications Officer - Combat ... Feed the Captain communications from other ships in the Fleet and other crew aboard his own ship (PC & NPC) so that they have enough meaningfull information to base decisions on. Work ECM to confound enemy sensor locks.
Non-Combat..... Monitor the "chatter" on Fleet/Civilian channels to be aware of what's going on in the "galaxy" at that time....and keep the CO informed of important unfolding events.
That's with me spending only about 10 minutes thinking about it. There is a TON of stuff that the other MAJOR positions aboard a starship COULD do that would be interesting.
Wow, that all sounds great but I live in a little place I like to call the real world and don't want to wait 25 years while they put all of that into a game. People seem to have a lot of great Ideas when it comes to their own little personal fantasy game but they don't seem to realize the massive amount of work it would be to incorporate all of that into a single game. Let them get a game that works first that we can actually play and then maybe add some of this over time. What you are proposing here would work but it would be such a massive undertaking that no developer in their right mind would attempt to make such a game.
A MMO is a massive undertaking to begin with but adding something like this on top of that would take forever to produce. They are already essentially making 2 full MMOs... A space MMO and a ground MMO with the massive amounts of content that both games will need to survive. You are proposing that they make 5-6 more full games on top of that that are somehow all seamlessly interwoven together. It would be an impossibly huge undertaking and would take many many years to produce such a game. It's not as simple as you seem to think.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
@ GrumpyMel2
Unfortunately, you are confusing Role with Function. You can't build a game around Function because it's (A) imposible to balance and (B) reinventing the wheel when the wheel is working just fine.
So what is a Role. In the modern MMORPG their are only 3 roles. Tank, DPS, Healer. This works just fine even outside of the Fantasy genre. So why fix something that's not broken?
While the Medical officer "function" sounds good on paper, the overwhelming response has been that the audience does not want mini games. People wants direct interaction with the enemy (ie ships) and interaction with the main environment (space). A Medical officer is not a Role, it's not even a function. It's a sub-function that would be part of a job that does multiple functions while filling a role.
If you really want to role play being a science officer or an engineering technician on a star ship, there are plenty of nerd-filled chat rooms just waiting for you!
But don't dilude yourselves into thinking that type of thing is mainstream or that the rest of us will enjoy it.
I gotta call ya on that claim. Where in the hells does it say a MMORPG is about competition? PvP (or RvR) might be, but believe it or not, MMOs have something called PvE. Where is the competition part? Spawn camping? Racing to the top level?
I've enjoyed MMOs for over a decade and have never once felt like I was "competing".
Sounds like WoW. What people want is to be able to man a single ship together, not fly a bunch of ships next to each other. It comes down to this:
Do you want to play as: Captain Kirk or Captain Picaard
or play as: Captain Kirk, or Spock, or Bones or Scotty or Ahura...?
The answer from the public (you know, the target audience) is overwhelmingly B.
It comes down to this:
Do you want to play a fun role (role playing game): Captain
or play some mini-games: Cook, Science officer, Botanic officer, Sensory sweeper (it has to be fun for longer then one hour)
The answer should be A but since when does the public know what is best for them?
ALSO, dont be too optimistic about mini-games, it is not like we invent a new tertris/bejeweled every day...
Totally agree. You can't please some people, they will complain there isn't enough no matter how much they have. Best to just ignore the whiners and stick to the things that are proven to work best for gamers in general not just the loud screaming fanbois.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Responses....
1) Bren putting in that stuff is NOT that Hercuelean of a task. I playing an indie developed Sci Fi game right now that has the majority of that stuff working in game right now. If 7 developers working in their spare time on a shoe string budget can accomplish that..... then a developer with a multi-million dollar budget can do it too.
Whether they CHOOSE to put resources toward that or not... is another story... but it's certainly not an insurmountable hurdle.
I work in the Tech industry, I know the amount of work that goes into accomplishing certain things/
2) Vanilla is certainly a fine flavor of ice cream... I like it alot...but I also like strawberry and chocolate and mocha chip.
The Tank, Healer, DPS paradigm is fine.. it works...it's tried and true...it's popular (though not really sure how well it translates into ship vs ship combat).... but it's NOT the ONLY functional way to do roles in game.... trust me on that. Heck there are MMO's that don't even HAVE combat.
It's nice to have a little variety out there. There are even role paradigms that even fit different genres (like Star Trek or Sci Fi)... MUCH BETTER then Tank, Healer, DPS.... I'm sorry some of you guys can't see that.
3) Different people have different tastes.... some people like ketchup on thier fries...others like mayo.... You ask some of the ketchup lovers about putting mayo on fries they are going to call it the worst travesty ever.
That's all that's going on here. Some people love the direction Cryptic is taking...others hate it. The people who hate it are just expressing thier opinion and providing some explantion about how things COULD be done differently....that doesn't mean that we are whining or think we are entitled to change how they are doing it. Thats all.
I am going to play Devil's Advocate and give Grumpy some cover. "Now they have two targets to fire at.."
First, the idea that STO will take forever to make if interactive interiors were put in place and Cryptic is already working on another MMO I say gimme a break. Cryptic didn't need to take on such a massive IP. They chose to invest to do so. That being done, there is nothing wrong with fans to offer what would make STO an exceptional MMO experience. Perpetual got a ton of grief for the Starship Interior issue and now Cryptic is simply putting aloe on that sunburn to tell us in essence, "perhaps in an expansion we will do that."
For those that don't understand why people who don't intend on playing STO yet posting on forum boards. People arent complaining because they don't like the game. They are upset because the like the idea of a STO. They just don't like the direction the game development is going. Developers are human and always like to claim they listen to the players. So gamers do what they can until the game comes out - they voice their opinion.
We Interior fans understand your reservations. My question is What would make Star Trek Online different than the MMO game that has expired -Earth and Beyond? Player avatar customization? Beam down instances that remind us of City of Heroes missions? Is this all Cryptic needs to do? Slap a Star Trek skin on Earth and Beyond and you will buy it?
Personally I thought they could go the extra mile. Many games already have automated NPCs which you can assign roles to fill in for human gamers. I always thought COH had one of the best LFG systems out there. Pick up groups were fun. Task forces were fun and easy to get involved in. I thought you can look outside the box, make your ship a dynamic "Lair" which provided more than housing and travel , but missions, combat entertainment, etc.
Ok, enough being a nice guy. Cryptic aint gonna listen.
Cryptic listen's with their balance statements, the same way all the developers do. They're smart enough to know that catering to a few hardcore whiners isn't the way to make a financially successful game.
Reading these forums all the time leads me to one thought process, if I were a developer I wouldn't even announce my game until beta. Only for the fact that then people sit there and say no do this, no do that, no that idea sucks do this not that. All the players think their ideas are the best, all the players think the direction is wrong. But then tons of people play the games anyways. Just save the headache and start only announcing games right before beta so you can get some applications in.
Well said. Player hype is worse then companies saying what they "plan" to put ingame.
Cryptic listen's with their balance statements, the same way all the developers do. They're smart enough to know that catering to a few hardcore whiners isn't the way to make a financially successful game.
They have no "balance statements" for STO yet....as the game hasn't been released yet (not even in Beta). They won't have until it goes to production..... what they have is an educated guess, just like the makers of LOTRO and WOW.... but also like the makers of Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, Matrix Online, etc..
Whether their guess was a good one or not..... won't be known until a few months after the game launches and they see what their sales and retention rates are actually like.
Even then they won't really know whether the direction they took was the BEST one or simply good enough.... as they wouldn't know what kind of profits they might have made going a different route.
So drop the attitude.... because you are no more of an "expert" then anyone else posting here.
Believe me, it's not a head-ache for them. It may be a head-ache for the marketing/pr guys.... but for the Dev's it's actualy somewhat useful..... unless their the high-strung type.
Feedback from your potential audience on design concepts is always useful for a Product Developer. You just take it for what it is...... different people have different preferences and different ideas about what they would like to see in a game.
As long as people post in a semi-respectful and semi-intelligent manner... it's ALL good. That doesn't mean they are going to let it rule what they do....or just because Joe Schmoe thinks idea X "sucks" that they are going to change something. They put everything through a filter. It's good to think about different options for creating a product..... and it can be good to throw some stuff out there and see what the different criticisms are. Again, it doesn't rule what you .....but it gives you things to think about.... you just have to have a somewhat thick hide.
This is why I've decided to only visit this site occasionally.
The posters here are so far off when it comes to what gamers want it's fucking insane.
Real gamers would cream in thier pants for a game that combined Freelancer and Mass Effect.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
This is why I've decided to only visit this site occasionally.
The posters here are so far off when it comes to what gamers want it's fucking insane.
Real gamers would cream in thier pants for a game that combined Freelancer and Mass Effect.
Not to mention that this game has been called a copy of Eve,WOW,Pirates of the Burning Sea,Earth and Beyond, City of Heroes etc.by some folks here before BETA has even been announced. Basically, they have this image of what the perfect MMO is and if any game in development doesn't meet their grand expectations,which so far has been all of them, they call it a clone of something else.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
This is why I've decided to only visit this site occasionally.
The posters here are so far off when it comes to what gamers want it's fucking insane.
Real gamers would cream in thier pants for a game that combined Freelancer and Mass Effect.
Not to mention that this game has been called a copy of Eve,WOW,Pirates of the Burning Sea,Earth and Beyond, City of Heroes etc.by some folks here before BETA has even been announced. Basically, they have this image of what the perfect MMO is and if any game in development doesn't meet their grand expectations,which so far has been all of them, they call it a clone of something else.
Its no different here than any other thread of any other game. Carebear, WOW clone and on and on. Personally ground combat like Mass Effect would not be so bad in my eyes.
Everything I've seen so far from Cryptic would suggest that this is just another MMO. But we are talking about Star Trek here. Its first real MMO should raise the MMO bar a little bit, but instead it just seems to being playing it safe. Besides, Cryptic has missed the essense of what Star Trek is all about. 4000 varied starships flying about the alpha quadrant is NOT Star Trek.
While this game will probably look cool, and might even be more entertaining then EVE or any other recent Space MMO it will lack the true Star Trek soul I think.