Why play a game if it presents no real challenge? This isn't console, there are no hint books, cheat codes, or gameshark to help you out. However, the tears of your bretheren carebears seem to work well at making WoW and other MMOs easier.
Also, if your guild can't clear Sunwell, then you're a damn scrub and don't deserve a thing.
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
This whole tread is funny. Frankly the idea of anyone who plays video games referring to themselves as "hardcore" is downright ridiculous. Mixed Martial Arts is hardcore, guys in the Special Forces, Marines or Navy Seals are hardcore. Coast Guard Rescue Divers are hardcore...video games aren't hardcore.
Why play a game if it presents no real challenge? This isn't console, there are no hint books, cheat codes, or gameshark to help you out. However, the tears of your bretheren carebears seem to work well at making WoW and other MMOs easier.
Also, if your guild can't clear Sunwell, then you're a damn scrub and don't deserve a thing.
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
There are more hardcore gamers out there than people realize. But a lot of us, like me, don't have an mmo to play right now. All the good games have been replaced by "Oh you killed that level 1 rat? Here's the best gear in the game". And don't give me the casual gamers are more mature and have more responsibilities BS. I co-own a business, which means working more than 40 hours a week sometimes. I still get in 30-40 hours a week of gaming.
If your subscriber base is 80% casual, your game has failed because the best games turn the casual player into a hardcore player.
Actually, this is something so simple to understand we seem to overlook it.
I agree with you, that if a game is great then the casuals will even be hardcore. It is like a fix that you can't shake.
The only reason that EQ could get by with it's grind back in the day, was because it was the first great of it's kind. It was something totally new for us RPG lovers. It made it where we could now share our experiences with our friends and friends to be made in a 3d world.
Anyway, it is probably a good thing that no new games have come out like that. It is kind of unhealthy in it's own way for something to consume so much of your time.
Every so often in one of these huge threads, you get a gem of wisdom. In this case, two gems of wisdom. Thanks slippyC and Sabiancym!
Look guys, I think the game developers are so wrapped up in this "casual and hardcore" termonology that they are missing the forrest for the trees. Both groups want the same thing. And what they want is a game that's so good, you don't want to put it down.
The best single games are ones that you don't want to leave (Metal Gear Solid, Fallout 3, etc.). The worst single player games are those that give you excuses to leave because the game makes it easy to turn it off after a set time. Right now, MMOs are designed to give people excusues to leave, rather than excuses to stay logged on. That's what "casual" games imply, in my opinion.
Casual games are, in my opinion, games that are designed so that you want to put them down after awhile. They are not, as many industry insiders have stated, games that are designed to cater to people who don't have a lot of time. Because the truth is like the above posters stated: if the game is good, you make the time. If the game gets stale, you'll find excuses to leave until such time as the stale feeling shakes off.
So then, why do game designers want to make games that people find excuses not to play? The reason is that they really don't care if you play, as long as you pay. In fact, playing the game is a liability to the game service, because the player creates lag, CS issues, and interpersonal problems with others. And in many cases, since the person pays a box fee and agrees to a recurring charge, there is really no incentive for an MMO publisher to make the game fun for hours on end. In fact, the incentive is to get the players on and off the servers as quickly as possible so they don't consume all the content quickly.
There is only the incentive to get the player to pay up front, agree to get charged, and get charged until such time as the player actively cancels, which usually entails a month where the publisher is charging for services no longer wanted. It's the same deal that heath clubs operate under.
WAR is making a killing, because the average person who plays WAR pays $55 ($40 + $15) and barely takes up any resources at all. Not only that, but the person might be compelled to come back at some point for $15, just to quit again after a few days. And of course, the content will always be fresh, because when a player is compelled to leave, they'll never stick around long enough at a given time to consume everything that is there.
So after thinking about it, I am not really convinced that game developers are designing games to appeal to "casual players." Rather, they are creating games that create casual players, because the games become so tedious after awhile, you want to leave them. That way, the developers don't have to work so hard to create content, and they'll always have something left over for the next day. And if the player cancels? It's no big deal, because they already received enough money from the player to make it worth their while.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Why play a game if it presents no real challenge? This isn't console, there are no hint books, cheat codes, or gameshark to help you out. However, the tears of your bretheren carebears seem to work well at making WoW and other MMOs easier.
Also, if your guild can't clear Sunwell, then you're a damn scrub and don't deserve a thing.
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
What players and developers need to realize is that its not about making a game for "casual or hardcore" its about making a quility game period. If you make a good game then players will play it. This labelling games or players "Casual" and "Hardcore" is stupid. MAKE A GOOD QUILITY GAME. Do not cater to one group over the other, just make a good game. Once a developer realizes this, they will be rewarded with more subs then they can handle. Its very simple and for the life of me I cannot understand why others do not see it. Perfect example is the Wii. The Wii is a good console and it has both "casual" players and "hardcore" players. It is successful because it is a good quility system not because it catered to one or the other play styles. So all you want to be developers out there. MAKE A GOOD GAME and the rest will work it self out.
Wii is not hardcore. Wii is an attempt by Nintendo to make children healthier. Wii is a novelty, you play it for a week then realize that you just wasted your money.
What players and developers need to realize is that its not about making a game for "casual or hardcore" its about making a quility game period. If you make a good game then players will play it. This labelling games or players "Casual" and "Hardcore" is stupid. MAKE A GOOD QUILITY GAME. Do not cater to one group over the other, just make a good game. Once a developer realizes this, they will be rewarded with more subs then they can handle. Its very simple and for the life of me I cannot understand why others do not see it. Perfect example is the Wii. The Wii is a good console and it has both "casual" players and "hardcore" players. It is successful because it is a good quility system not because it catered to one or the other play styles. So all you want to be developers out there. MAKE A GOOD GAME and the rest will work it self out.
Wii is not hardcore. Wii is an attempt by Nintendo to make children healthier. Wii is a novelty, you play it for a week then realize that you just wasted your money.
Nobody said Wii was hardcore. Maybe you should read the post before replying. I said Wii has both types of players.
Second Wii is the best selling console for a reason. The reason is that it is a fun system. You can sit and play Wii without a problem, so I do not understand your comment about making children healthier. I enjoy alot of games on the Wii because of the montion controller but I do not own a Wii because it is not a system for me. I own and enjoy a PS3.
The Wii caters to all kinds of people including the older generation that would never had played video games if it were not for the Wii.
Again please read the post before replying next time.
Why play a game if it presents no real challenge? This isn't console, there are no hint books, cheat codes, or gameshark to help you out. However, the tears of your bretheren carebears seem to work well at making WoW and other MMOs easier.
Also, if your guild can't clear Sunwell, then you're a damn scrub and don't deserve a thing.
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
That brings me to the main point. WoW is dumbed down which creates bad gamers. People are not forced to learn their class and make stupid mistakes. WoW allows players to get away with playing poorly but still gives them rewards. That is the main reason I hate todays MMOs.
Make gamers think while playing, make them learn the game and the class they pick. Allow them to make mistakes but make sure they have to pay a price for the mistake. How else can you learn without mistakes? Todays MMos do not reward smart players enough, they reward all kinds of players and that is the problem.
Eve rewards the smart gamer and makes the stupid gamer work a lot harder to get the same rewards as the smart gamer. They have it right. I do not play EvE as I did not enjoy the point and click system and that is fine but at least they got the Risk vs Reward system right.
Why play a game if it presents no real challenge? This isn't console, there are no hint books, cheat codes, or gameshark to help you out. However, the tears of your bretheren carebears seem to work well at making WoW and other MMOs easier.
Also, if your guild can't clear Sunwell, then you're a damn scrub and don't deserve a thing.
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
That brings me to the main point. WoW is dumbed down which creates bad gamers. People are not forced to learn their class and make stupid mistakes. WoW allows players to get away with playing poorly but still gives them rewards. That is the main reason I hate todays MMOs.
Make gamers think while playing, make them learn the game and the class they pick. Allow them to make mistakes but make sure they have to pay a price for the mistake. How else can you learn without mistakes? Todays MMos do not reward smart players enough, they reward all kinds of players and that is the problem.
Eve rewards the smart gamer and makes the stupid gamer work a lot harder to get the same rewards as the smart gamer. They have it right. I do not play EvE as I did not enjoy the point and click system and that is fine but at least they got the Risk vs Reward system right.
I will agree with all of this. EvE also got it right, and I quit playing eve for the same reason, great concept, I just hate spreadsheets and point click. The game design of EvE is fine though.
I only play WoW for lack of anything else on the market that resembles fun. I miss EQ1 and I miss DAoC, but the glory days of those games are over now, and when I try to go back to them the ghost towns and lack of players make me un sub again.
I really want the old style of gameplay back like many others, but until a game comes along to cater to us, I am forced to play wow.
I have to play something, nothing can beat wows polish right now. As much as I hate to give blizzard my money, until a ballsy developer comes along to change the game style of today. I will just stick to the polish. WoW may be dumbed down, this I admit but it can have it's occassional "Fun" times to.
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode. You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
LOL .. silly elitist attitude that call everyone else moron and blame other members for not clearing ulduar hard modes.
Sure sure. You are epic kewl. Why don't you find a harder game than WOW to play?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode. You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
LOL .. silly elitist attitude that call everyone else moron and blame other members for not clearing ulduar hard modes.
Sure sure. You are epic kewl. Why don't you find a harder game than WOW to play?
Don't kid yourself, there are a shit ton of games harder than WoW. I actually did play a few of them until recently, however due to time constraints in RL and my RL brother playing WoW. I chose to just drop other subs and play wow with him.
EQ1, EQ2, FFXI, EvE.
There you go, 4 games right there that all massacre WoW in difficulty of raids or gameplay.
There are plenty more but no need to list them all.
If every "hardcore" player on the planet suddenly decided to stop playing MMORPG's the "casuals" that only played 30 minutes a week would still call the "casuals" that played one hour a week "hardcore".
There is no such thing as a "casual" player. Anyone that spends any amount of time trying to improve their toon is "hardcore".
So you use the majority of your free time for gaming, good for you. I work 40-50 hours a week and I can't game for another 30-40 hours because of responsibilities to family and friends. You're confusing responsibilities for self with responsibilities to others.
Yeah, but its not lack of time that is holding anyone back anymore. Everything in modern games can be done in small chunks of time, if there truly are so many casual players, why dont they form up into guilds that split up a raid into multiple evenings?
The answer, in the end, is that its not about time. Time is just a point hard to argue with when someone claims his RL responsibilities and life prevents him from playing a lot.
Matter of fact, the good, successful players in most MMOs arent the ones with most time spent.
What it comes down to is that a player who plays only, say, 10 hours a week (which is FAR below the admitted average of WoW for example, which sports 22hrs on average per week per player) can get everything eventually, but far below the rate of players who chip in more time. Additionally, coordinating players who play rarely and unreliably is very difficult, often meaning that the player behaviour itself becomes the problem: A raid full of casuals doesnt work, because the needs of these casuals dont work well together.
That isnt a game design matter... its a basic problem of the playstyle you call casual, which means everything else comes first, in an environment where you cant get around doing stuff together.
So, we end up with numerous threads where so-called casual players feel hampered by the game, when its not actually the game, but the playstyle of their fellow gamers.
And of course, there are also those that invoke the word "casual" to demand games which do not reward players for putting in more than they do, and thus overtake them in terms of rewards. But thats just plain greed, and hopefully not the majority.
The only way so far to further cater to those casuals who are still unhappy is to make things an automatic success. But then it REALLY just comes down to how many hours you spam your instant gratification activities.
If you ask me, the way to balance out the hardcore vs. the casual can only work in very special circumstances. EVE with its ability to offline-train your character has had a good idea in that regard. Also, making games HARDER instead of easier emphasizes playing skill, tactical thinking and planning, and not just dumping lots of hours onto a boss or dungeon, which would in theory allow for greater progress in less time.
However, then I bet a crowd of people would show up claiming skill-based, as opposed to time-based, rewards are unfair because a casual player by definition does have too much on their mind to think about a game, and thus will always be unfairly treated.
Comments
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
This whole tread is funny. Frankly the idea of anyone who plays video games referring to themselves as "hardcore" is downright ridiculous. Mixed Martial Arts is hardcore, guys in the Special Forces, Marines or Navy Seals are hardcore. Coast Guard Rescue Divers are hardcore...video games aren't hardcore.
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Actually, this is something so simple to understand we seem to overlook it.
I agree with you, that if a game is great then the casuals will even be hardcore. It is like a fix that you can't shake.
The only reason that EQ could get by with it's grind back in the day, was because it was the first great of it's kind. It was something totally new for us RPG lovers. It made it where we could now share our experiences with our friends and friends to be made in a 3d world.
Anyway, it is probably a good thing that no new games have come out like that. It is kind of unhealthy in it's own way for something to consume so much of your time.
Every so often in one of these huge threads, you get a gem of wisdom. In this case, two gems of wisdom. Thanks slippyC and Sabiancym!
Look guys, I think the game developers are so wrapped up in this "casual and hardcore" termonology that they are missing the forrest for the trees. Both groups want the same thing. And what they want is a game that's so good, you don't want to put it down.
The best single games are ones that you don't want to leave (Metal Gear Solid, Fallout 3, etc.). The worst single player games are those that give you excuses to leave because the game makes it easy to turn it off after a set time. Right now, MMOs are designed to give people excusues to leave, rather than excuses to stay logged on. That's what "casual" games imply, in my opinion.
Casual games are, in my opinion, games that are designed so that you want to put them down after awhile. They are not, as many industry insiders have stated, games that are designed to cater to people who don't have a lot of time. Because the truth is like the above posters stated: if the game is good, you make the time. If the game gets stale, you'll find excuses to leave until such time as the stale feeling shakes off.
So then, why do game designers want to make games that people find excuses not to play? The reason is that they really don't care if you play, as long as you pay. In fact, playing the game is a liability to the game service, because the player creates lag, CS issues, and interpersonal problems with others. And in many cases, since the person pays a box fee and agrees to a recurring charge, there is really no incentive for an MMO publisher to make the game fun for hours on end. In fact, the incentive is to get the players on and off the servers as quickly as possible so they don't consume all the content quickly.
There is only the incentive to get the player to pay up front, agree to get charged, and get charged until such time as the player actively cancels, which usually entails a month where the publisher is charging for services no longer wanted. It's the same deal that heath clubs operate under.
WAR is making a killing, because the average person who plays WAR pays $55 ($40 + $15) and barely takes up any resources at all. Not only that, but the person might be compelled to come back at some point for $15, just to quit again after a few days. And of course, the content will always be fresh, because when a player is compelled to leave, they'll never stick around long enough at a given time to consume everything that is there.
So after thinking about it, I am not really convinced that game developers are designing games to appeal to "casual players." Rather, they are creating games that create casual players, because the games become so tedious after awhile, you want to leave them. That way, the developers don't have to work so hard to create content, and they'll always have something left over for the next day. And if the player cancels? It's no big deal, because they already received enough money from the player to make it worth their while.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
Wii is not hardcore. Wii is an attempt by Nintendo to make children healthier. Wii is a novelty, you play it for a week then realize that you just wasted your money.
Mr. Bagguns
Wii is not hardcore. Wii is an attempt by Nintendo to make children healthier. Wii is a novelty, you play it for a week then realize that you just wasted your money.
Nobody said Wii was hardcore. Maybe you should read the post before replying. I said Wii has both types of players.
Second Wii is the best selling console for a reason. The reason is that it is a fun system. You can sit and play Wii without a problem, so I do not understand your comment about making children healthier. I enjoy alot of games on the Wii because of the montion controller but I do not own a Wii because it is not a system for me. I own and enjoy a PS3.
The Wii caters to all kinds of people including the older generation that would never had played video games if it were not for the Wii.
Again please read the post before replying next time.
Sooner or Later
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
That brings me to the main point. WoW is dumbed down which creates bad gamers. People are not forced to learn their class and make stupid mistakes. WoW allows players to get away with playing poorly but still gives them rewards. That is the main reason I hate todays MMOs.
Make gamers think while playing, make them learn the game and the class they pick. Allow them to make mistakes but make sure they have to pay a price for the mistake. How else can you learn without mistakes? Todays MMos do not reward smart players enough, they reward all kinds of players and that is the problem.
Eve rewards the smart gamer and makes the stupid gamer work a lot harder to get the same rewards as the smart gamer. They have it right. I do not play EvE as I did not enjoy the point and click system and that is fine but at least they got the Risk vs Reward system right.
Sooner or Later
Luckily, no developer is listening to this silly elitist stuff. Even the notion of someone "deserving" stuff in a game is laughable. Let me repeat it ... MMORPGs are games, entertainment ... not pro sports that have only 10 to guys in the world.
If you are jealous that people can get some good equipment without pouring their lives into a GAME, well, don't play. There are plenty who feel WOW is challenging enough.
BTW, did you clear Algalon yet or is that too "easy" for you? LOL.
I quit raiding in WoW after we were done with Black Temple. My guild is in no way a "hardcore" guild in the sense we don't treat raiding as a job. However, we aren't a band of retards and are made up of players who actually are competent. I believe my guild is halfway or more than halfway through with Ulduar on hard mode.
I just farm in WoW and sell gold now. I put my fishing bot up and go to town. Since Blizzard has robbed me of my money I figure I'll make it back and then some...and I have... OH HOW I HAVE!!
You guild is only half way through ulduar on hard and you complain that WOW is easy?
I don't think people should complain that WOW is easy unless they have breezed through ulduar in hard mode.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
That brings me to the main point. WoW is dumbed down which creates bad gamers. People are not forced to learn their class and make stupid mistakes. WoW allows players to get away with playing poorly but still gives them rewards. That is the main reason I hate todays MMOs.
Make gamers think while playing, make them learn the game and the class they pick. Allow them to make mistakes but make sure they have to pay a price for the mistake. How else can you learn without mistakes? Todays MMos do not reward smart players enough, they reward all kinds of players and that is the problem.
Eve rewards the smart gamer and makes the stupid gamer work a lot harder to get the same rewards as the smart gamer. They have it right. I do not play EvE as I did not enjoy the point and click system and that is fine but at least they got the Risk vs Reward system right.
I will agree with all of this. EvE also got it right, and I quit playing eve for the same reason, great concept, I just hate spreadsheets and point click. The game design of EvE is fine though.
I only play WoW for lack of anything else on the market that resembles fun. I miss EQ1 and I miss DAoC, but the glory days of those games are over now, and when I try to go back to them the ghost towns and lack of players make me un sub again.
I really want the old style of gameplay back like many others, but until a game comes along to cater to us, I am forced to play wow.
I have to play something, nothing can beat wows polish right now. As much as I hate to give blizzard my money, until a ballsy developer comes along to change the game style of today. I will just stick to the polish. WoW may be dumbed down, this I admit but it can have it's occassional "Fun" times to.
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
LOL .. silly elitist attitude that call everyone else moron and blame other members for not clearing ulduar hard modes.
Sure sure. You are epic kewl. Why don't you find a harder game than WOW to play?
Every instance in wow is easy even the hard modes. The only thing that separates the good guilds from bad guilds are the members. Some guild just have more people with no lives than any others.
Any guild can do Uld on hard mode if you have 25 geared people who are not morons.
The problem is 80% of wow player base are morons and therefore that is why you have such a small number who complete these "hard" mode instances.
I am in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on horde side of archimonde server. I say top 3 because the ranks go back and forth week by week.
Anyway, we can easily do the hard modes in Uld but many nights we cannot due to moron syndrome of some members, some do not show up when they should, others do stupid mistakes. It isn't the instance though that wipes you, it's your own players.
Grab 25 semi-intelligent players with good gear and you can clear hardmodes.
LOL .. silly elitist attitude that call everyone else moron and blame other members for not clearing ulduar hard modes.
Sure sure. You are epic kewl. Why don't you find a harder game than WOW to play?
Don't kid yourself, there are a shit ton of games harder than WoW. I actually did play a few of them until recently, however due to time constraints in RL and my RL brother playing WoW. I chose to just drop other subs and play wow with him.
EQ1, EQ2, FFXI, EvE.
There you go, 4 games right there that all massacre WoW in difficulty of raids or gameplay.
There are plenty more but no need to list them all.
If every "hardcore" player on the planet suddenly decided to stop playing MMORPG's the "casuals" that only played 30 minutes a week would still call the "casuals" that played one hour a week "hardcore".
There is no such thing as a "casual" player. Anyone that spends any amount of time trying to improve their toon is "hardcore".
So you use the majority of your free time for gaming, good for you. I work 40-50 hours a week and I can't game for another 30-40 hours because of responsibilities to family and friends. You're confusing responsibilities for self with responsibilities to others.
Yeah, but its not lack of time that is holding anyone back anymore. Everything in modern games can be done in small chunks of time, if there truly are so many casual players, why dont they form up into guilds that split up a raid into multiple evenings?
The answer, in the end, is that its not about time. Time is just a point hard to argue with when someone claims his RL responsibilities and life prevents him from playing a lot.
Matter of fact, the good, successful players in most MMOs arent the ones with most time spent.
What it comes down to is that a player who plays only, say, 10 hours a week (which is FAR below the admitted average of WoW for example, which sports 22hrs on average per week per player) can get everything eventually, but far below the rate of players who chip in more time. Additionally, coordinating players who play rarely and unreliably is very difficult, often meaning that the player behaviour itself becomes the problem: A raid full of casuals doesnt work, because the needs of these casuals dont work well together.
That isnt a game design matter... its a basic problem of the playstyle you call casual, which means everything else comes first, in an environment where you cant get around doing stuff together.
So, we end up with numerous threads where so-called casual players feel hampered by the game, when its not actually the game, but the playstyle of their fellow gamers.
And of course, there are also those that invoke the word "casual" to demand games which do not reward players for putting in more than they do, and thus overtake them in terms of rewards. But thats just plain greed, and hopefully not the majority.
The only way so far to further cater to those casuals who are still unhappy is to make things an automatic success. But then it REALLY just comes down to how many hours you spam your instant gratification activities.
If you ask me, the way to balance out the hardcore vs. the casual can only work in very special circumstances. EVE with its ability to offline-train your character has had a good idea in that regard. Also, making games HARDER instead of easier emphasizes playing skill, tactical thinking and planning, and not just dumping lots of hours onto a boss or dungeon, which would in theory allow for greater progress in less time.
However, then I bet a crowd of people would show up claiming skill-based, as opposed to time-based, rewards are unfair because a casual player by definition does have too much on their mind to think about a game, and thus will always be unfairly treated.