Final Fantasy has always been aimed at the casual gamers. Why would they change pace now? I just hope they make the class/race/customization more diverse than FFX! was.
?? I am confused, u saying FFXI was aimed at casual gamers?
Also ... a more diverse class customization? You are kidding me right? what other game has a more diverse customization when it comes to class?
As long as grouping is strongly emphasized and has bigger role than soloing, then I'm fine with adding that diversity factor. However what I found odd is that he thought the fact that FFXI is exactly what MMO really 'should' be about is actually a bad thing. I don't quite understand why.
Why does MMO = forced grouping?
MMO means lots of people online playing the same game in the same world.
Why can't the grouping simply be encouraged, so that those that want to group can, and those that don't, don't have to. I'm not anti-grouping, I'm anti-forcing only one way of doing something. Sometimes I enjoy grouping, but I always hate it when any quest says "Oh, you simply don't have enough friends around you to hear what I have to say".
Do you think that if they didn't force grouping, no one would do so? If so, that's a poor reason to group. You should group because you want to, because it's more fun for you to play the game that way. And yes, I agree, an MMO should encourage grouping through extra rewards such that it's not more efficient to solo. I just want it to be possible, to not be forced to team with others to experience content.
As I said, I am not anti-grouping.
However, as for why solo in an MMO, I enjoy the persistant non-ending worlds, the teeming cities, the thriving auction houses; hell, I even enjoy just seeing others running around doing their thing. It makes a world seem alive in a way a single player game never could.
Also, there are some valid reasons to not group in an MMO. I resent the time it takes to round up a team, when I could just start playing now. I don't like that everyone has to adjust their preferred playing speed to something the group, or more often the tank, dictates. I like to take my time, others like to rush. And of course, there's the potential and frequent a-hole on the team factor.
Grouping can be fun and rewarding and absolutely belongs in the game. I fail to see why it has to be the only method.
Yeah well I think we basically agree but put emphasis on different factors, lol.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Final Fantasy has always been aimed at the casual gamers. Why would they change pace now? I just hope they make the class/race/customization more diverse than FFX! was.
I am also confused? Were these just a quick post for rank?
This a response to the multiple posts about giving players a choice between soloing and grouping.
Choices are great, the problem is the players. The majority of players will take the path of least resistance in order to level. If xp gain and advancement by soloing or grouping is exactly even in a game then people will solo because it requires the least amount of effort. No LFG, no coordinating with other people, being able to go AFK whenever. These are all pros to soloing. The only way to make grouping attractive is to make it more efficient to advance while grouped. Then, even though people can still level solo, they will say the game "forces" grouping simply because it is more efficient.
This may come as a surprise to some of these posters, but you can solo in FFXI. It's just slow and grouping is a lot more efficient. But the choice is there, if you want to solo, you can.
This is exactly the argument you are trying to make against FFXI, but you are, in fact, advocating the way FFXI is currently set up.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
This a response to the multiple posts about giving players a choice between soloing and grouping. Choices are great, the problem is the players. The majority of players will take the path of least resistance in order to level. If xp gain and advancement by soloing or grouping is exactly even in a game then people will solo because it requires the least amount of effort. No LFG, no coordinating with other people, being able to go AFK whenever. These are all pros to soloing. The only way to make grouping attractive is to make it more efficient to advance while grouped. Then, even though people can still level solo, they will say the game "forces" grouping simply because it is more efficient. This may come as a surprise to some of these posters, but you can solo in FFXI. It's just slow and grouping is a lot more efficient. But the choice is there, if you want to solo, you can. This is exactly the argument you are trying to make against FFXI, but you are, in fact, advocating the way FFXI is currently set up.
Maybe soloing has become easier as the game has progressed but when I played and leveled my PLD my WAR and my BRD to 75 ... it was not something realistic you could do. And let us be realistic, you saying that u can solo in FFXI I am pretty sure referes to the killing of Easy Prays for 25-50 XP every few minutes...? In all seriousness asking for a realistic path for people to solo their characters is not advocating for the way FFXI is right now.
I want there to be a solo experience in FFXIV that allows someone to go to a zone or area and do a few quests / kill a few mobs that give him maybe xp/hour equivalent to maybe 1/2 or 3/5 of the xp that same person could get with a party. That would give casual players a way to advance their toons as well as incurage the use of Parties as a fast means to getting to high lvl.
It has been some time since I last played FFXI and I understand since then the leveling has been dumbed down a lot and that is fine for a game that during the years gets easier to play but I hope that getting to top level in FFXIV is a challange at least for the first 2 years of the game. (i dont mean that it would take 2 years to achieve max level :P )
Im not a casual gamer, and im also not a hardcore gamer. I like MMOs to have both casual and hardcore content so i can always log on and achieve something regardless of time constraints. The game doesnt have to be easy though just because it has casual, solo friendly content.
I don't really think wow should be seen as casual, you have to play tremendous amounts of times, and have to do so mutch to be even concidered an option for a guild to take you with on raids, where you then can do those raids over and over to finaly get that 1 piece of equip that you actually needed to be strong enough for further raids... its a never ending circle (untill you did the last raid over and over of course :P)
though i would like to have it casual yes, beeing someone that works all day, and has a live besides sitting at the computer,
i would not mind beeing able to login for only 1 hour, and do a small instance or a few quests in group
what especially bothers me in most games (where i'd like to see a better implementation in final XIV and other upcomming mmo's is group making. but there is nothing that can be done to completely make it easy, they can just implement a good way to make groups, yet it is still up to the comunity to use it the right way. how many times have i logged into a game, wanting to play for 1 hour, having to either join a group and wait till its full, or create one myself finding the right players, for 45 minutes, and having 15 minutes playtime.
thats why, tbh, i had enormously big fun in guild wars for a few years, because it is so easy to just embark on a mission for a short time and the game made you able to enter the mission within 2 minutes after login (trough henchmen) or up to 15 minutes if you have to find a party. but still alot better than bigger mmorpgs.
WoW is as casual as it can possibly get- I may not even want to consider it as an MMORPG at all.
There should be things aimed for both types of players. If you are casual, don't go on a raid. It's not made for the most casual type. You can get to some point but after that you can't progress without sacrificing more of your playtime to be able to go on those raids. At that point you can start over with a new character/job, or quit. That's just how it is- you don't play a single player game if you have nothing to accomplish there either.
FFXIV will most likely not be even as casual as WoW is right now- which is a good choice for SE to make.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I am very concerned about this from the E3 Q&A: Q: What influence have games like World of WarCraft have on the development of FFXIV?
A: As with WoW, we want to aim a bit for the casual user. However, we don't want to make a copy of WoW. We believe we will have things that are unique and will stand out from that game.
From my persective FFXI was very rewarding because it was not dumbed down. So I guess I am asking:
I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.
Since you can log in and do your thing for 30 min and log out, giving nothing to the world of the game as a whole.
I dont see how you think WoW is not a game for the cassual player. Does it have content for hardcore players? Well it depends what u call Hardcore. It does have end game but not nearly as hardcore as FFXI.
I guess you'd have to be "hardcore" to put up with time consuming end game like in FF11.
Besides, most end game fights boil down to zerg, tank and spank, or kite in FF11...what a challenge those are.
You know there was statistic, only 8% of the entire playerbase of WoW had done Black Temple back during Burning Crusade, so there must be something "hardcore" about it.
Wow endgame is nothing but zerg. End of story. FFXI, we have some battles that are zerged (if your ls can do that), kited (if you have to), straight tanked, mana burned, etc. All of those entail a different strategy. Endgame fights can last from 2 minutes to 2 hours or more depending on what you are fighting.
And then there is salvage, which, nothing in WoW can even come close to or compare to. Sky, Sea, Znms, nothing in wow can be compared to them as well.
In short, they are different games, but one is more hardcore (drop rates are low, and gear is rare), as opposed to a game where everything is easy to come by.
Also, for the "I want to log in for 40 minutes a day crowd" you can do that in ffxi. There is plenty of content you can do now. Campaign, assualts, Fields of Valor, nyzul (still an assault), etc. Level sync also allows you to find a pt quick and can xp for only an hour or two and still get good xp.
Many endgame fights aren't as long as they used to be. Einherjar (30 minutes), salvage (100 minutes), limbus can be done in 20 minutes to an hour. You don't have to spend 4-6 hours a day playing, it's really your choice.
As for me, as long as they don't put in a stupid ass questing grind like every other damn mmo out there, then I will be fine. I'm tired of freaking quests. EQ, DAoC, WoW, War, Lotro, AoC, etc, etc, etc, all have quests. F2P games have quests. They are all boring and redundant to me. If I wanna play a single player game, I will pop in a console RPG, where I don't have to kill X nu,bher of enemies, and I get a good story and cutscenes. FFXI was different in terms of their grind, where you did in in a socialized pt setup, where you had a set role in the pt, could chat, and goof around. Was more exciting in the days before the mpk fix
Just give me my freedom of choice SE, like you do with FFXI. You don't point me to one place or the other, you let me decide what I wanna do with my game time. You let the players decide what zones they wanna make an xp camp in. You have more depth than any mmo (besides Ultima Online). Have a great endgame variety, and excellent job system. As long as you can still provide that (and the sense of satisfaction I get when I accomplish something), then I don't care what you do for casual gamers.
WoW is as casual as it can possibly get- I may not even want to consider it as an MMORPG at all. There should be things aimed for both types of players. If you are casual, don't go on a raid. It's not made for the most casual type. You can get to some point but after that you can't progress without sacrificing more of your playtime to be able to go on those raids. At that point you can start over with a new character/job, or quit. That's just how it is- you don't play a single player game if you have nothing to accomplish there either. FFXIV will most likely not be even as casual as WoW is right now- which is a good choice for SE to make.
Do you even play WoW or played for a while, because that's a silly statement.
I agree with most of what you say after that, but be careful not to stereotype casuals too much, someone may play for an hour most sessions and then BOOM spend 5 hours logged in for an event or something the guild is doing or what not.
Also what's the point of a raid? To gain gear so you can raid? ^_^ The great things about an mmo is there are different ways to spend your time and have fun with others, level, raid, craft, dungeon crawl, and one playstyle isn't more important then another. Some people really do love leveling alts for years, it may not be for everyone but if that's what they like to do... As for quitting if I put in at least 6 months in a game I call that a success, if I can put in more I call that a game of choice.
Final Fantasy has always been aimed at the casual gamers. Why would they change pace now? I just hope they make the class/race/customization more diverse than FFX! was.
So I am a casual gamer? I can live with that very well if FFXI is considered a casual game. So um what do you consider WoW since I thought it was the posterchild for casual?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
WoW is as casual as it can possibly get- I may not even want to consider it as an MMORPG at all. There should be things aimed for both types of players. If you are casual, don't go on a raid. It's not made for the most casual type. You can get to some point but after that you can't progress without sacrificing more of your playtime to be able to go on those raids. At that point you can start over with a new character/job, or quit. That's just how it is- you don't play a single player game if you have nothing to accomplish there either. FFXIV will most likely not be even as casual as WoW is right now- which is a good choice for SE to make.
Do you even play WoW or played for a while, because that's a silly statement.
Well, I got to 40 in WoW fairly fast. But I've played XI for 6 years now, so the bias towards a little harder MMO is there. And I don't say it like it's a fact, only my opinion .
I feel like the whole game plays more like a normal RPG with online elements than a true MMO. But what is a true MMO? We all have our own views, so I think it's not worth it to argue- I don't think I could 'prove' you wrong either way .
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
WoW is as casual as it can possibly get- I may not even want to consider it as an MMORPG at all. There should be things aimed for both types of players. If you are casual, don't go on a raid. It's not made for the most casual type. You can get to some point but after that you can't progress without sacrificing more of your playtime to be able to go on those raids. At that point you can start over with a new character/job, or quit. That's just how it is- you don't play a single player game if you have nothing to accomplish there either. FFXIV will most likely not be even as casual as WoW is right now- which is a good choice for SE to make.
Do you even play WoW or played for a while, because that's a silly statement.
Well, I got to 40 in WoW fairly fast. But I've played XI for 6 years now, so the bias towards a little harder MMO is there. And I don't say it like it's a fact, only my opinion .
I feel like the whole game plays more like a normal RPG with online elements than a true MMO. But what is a true MMO? We all have our own views, so I think it's not worth it to argue- I don't think I could 'prove' you wrong either way .
Well, WoW was actually just ripping off EQ and DAoC (mainly DAoC), and thus has every play style that was in those games. They left out a lot of stuff they thought wasn't fun. It was never intended to be this casual game. They sped up the combat a lot though. In the end, when they released TBC, they then killed the majority of the content they had in the game. I honestly don't believe Blizzard really has a passion for the game, only the revenue it brings in.
SE on the other hand, seems to care about XI. They wanna maintain certain standards with FFXI, and they never waver on that stance. They might make a few things, easier, compared to what they were, but still, they keep it challenging. The only thing they have give us for no work, is the mog satchel. They have also added tons of content, not just a new dungeon and gear, and thus allowing the players to chose their own play style.
I'm tired of the casual/hardcore talk. Yes, FFXI is one of the most hardcore mmos. At the same time, it's pretty casual. You can log on and goof off with your friends. I have a friend online, who has only ever done dyna for endgame. He's been playing for 5 years, but would rather do other crap than endgame. It can be casual, if a person makes it casual. My personal belief is a casual mmo, is something you can relax, and chill with people while playing. Endgame != Casual for some ppl, but for me, it's pretty casual, cause we go...have fun, and it never feels like work
I would call WoW casual (clearly not a bad thing to a lot of people.) It didn't start out that way though, in fact it was really difficult the first time I started playing it. There were many more elites around and stuff like that.
I consider WoW casual because i can get to the end really quickly even when I'm not in a rush to lvl up. I consider it casual because things like raids are mostly endgame. And endgame gets you nowhere just better gear and stuff and more of a lobby to kill time while waiting for the next expansion or whatever.
I dunno WoW is fun but to get back on the topic:
I'm sure FFXIV will be vastly improved on but the topic is "Do I WANT FFXIV to be aimed at casual gamers" and the answer is:
No.
In fact I would love an MMO that finally "forces people to group" in order to advance. I remember someone posting a complaint about that earlier and to me it would be refreshing and fun.
In fact I would love an MMO that finally "forces people to group" in order to advance. I remember someone posting a complaint about that earlier and to me it would be refreshing and fun.
A lot of MMOs have already gone that route, and it's becoming less and less popular. FFXI started out that way, and they lost a lot of players for it. This is one of the main reasons they chose to add soloable progressions through the game later in the game's life.
While I definitely enjoyed old FFXI, I think it would be a huge mistake for developers to repeat it's setup. However, like you, I don't want to see them going to other extreme and going for a WoW clone approach. I liked the crafting, renkai's, the very involved storyline. However, waiting for groups to wait for spawns, to camp and grind exp got old fairly quickly. When people started leaving, the waits got longer, the spawns became less interesting as well, and the game became a lot less fun.
It can NEVER work,you cannot have a game that caters to casual because the grouping aspect would be too powerful for the game then.It has to remain the same way otherwise it would lose the feel of a FF game.Example ..one player only has so many tools at his/her disposal, a group would have many more buffs or enfeebs to work with.
The only other thing i can think of is scaling and i really hope they do not go for that aspect as it really turns a MMO into a single player game.They mentioned they have some new mechanic never used before,i hope scaling is not it.SOE did use some scaling in it's Splitpaw saga expansion.
Personally i feel it will more along the lines of what Square introduced lately for casual players.
One must remember that CASUAL means just that,it does not mean play a game as a solo player.It means there is some mechanics that offer a player something for an hour or less.
WOW is not a casual game,it is a game geared more towards a solo player,witch is just a lame idea to begin with for a MMO.
Square has there independant single player games for the FF series ,so i do not see them turning the MMO game into a solofest.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I want FFXIV to be exactly like FFXI in the regards of it being heavily group dependant. It used to bother me once upon a time when I played FFXI but it made for a MUCH better community. Everybody knew wach other and were friendly bceause if you were an ass you got blacklisted. I hope to god FFXIV doesn't sell out and try to be a crappy WoW clone "because it sells"
The feel of Final Fantasy that sets it apart is that feeling like you're truly part of something bigger, something epic. Just because you have to work for it makesit all that more special. I hit the level cap in many games and still felt like a noob. The level curve and the fact that you need a group to get there made the level cap in FFXI seem so much more special. Like you had accomplished something, I hope they keep with that.
I think one of the problems here is people have different definitions on what they think is casual or hardcore. To me timesinks do not equal challenge. Do I want hardcore content? Hell yes. Hard challenging content is what keeps me striving to get better with my linkshells/guilds. There is nothing challenging or hard about being forced to spend countless hours bottlenecked by ridiculous time sinks. I always joked FFXI was a lifestyle and not a game. The fights were not the challenging part of it, getting enough time to play was. If I didn't have at least 3 hours to play I didn't bother logging in, thats the problem. Casual content doesn't have to focus on gear or levels either, there can be lots of sideways character progression. Most MMOs failed at this aspect, FFXI was actually pretty good at it, but it still took lots of hours.
Grouping should be A LOT more rewarding then soloing, its an MMO. That doesn't mean casual play shouldn't be viable. If I am gonna solo maybe I can knock out some quests or a bit of exp. It would also be nice to be able to log in and knock out some exp in smaller groups, like with a friend or two instead of needing a full group that takes an hour just to put together only to have your healer or tank leave. Casual doesn't have to be easy either, you can make casual content challenging.
I played FFXI for a total of 2 years. A dedicated year at launch, and on-and off single months afterwards, mainly due to real life getting in the way after that first year.
I've also played World of Warcraft for about 2 years, with both years being continues, and again, when WoW launched.
World of Warcraft has NOTHING on the feel of accomplishment or challenge that FFXI had.
I had one job at level 75, a Red Mage(Maat was NOT fun). I worked my ass off to get this. I worked for my money, I worked for my experience in a party, I worked for my job levels in all my jobs, and while I say 'worked', it never FELT like work because I ENJOYED it. It was challenging in FFXI to do many things, including leveling, and it was this challenge I loved because it always felt like I achieved something fantastic. And since all my jobs were linked to my one character, I never felt like 'I need to do this again on another character' because it was NEVER NECESSARY. Alts? Who needs alts(other than for storage for those inclined to it), every job was at your fingertips and could be changed on a whim, with no need to send things to alts or farm things for alts or any of that crap. You did things for YOURSELF, to progress YOUR character further and accomplish the many difficult tasks needed to futher progress your character's life and achievements, jobs, items, etc. Time NEVER felt wasted because I had no other character than my one and only Hume, and I never needed anything else thanks to the job system. If I wanted to play my Red Mage, I did. If I felt like being a Dark Knight, I changed and did that. If I wanted to level from level 1 all over again, I pick a job I never leveled yet and roll with that in the newbie grounds, with newbie stats and newbie gear. If I learned a new spell usable by multiple jobs(Like 'Cure'), it felt satisfying to know that I don't have to learn this again on any other jobs that know it, and that if I were to level the jobs that did know it, I would get it at the proper level.
And you had to EARN your levels too, in parties where you played as a team to take down monsters. Even as a beastmaster soloing, they still earned their levels since it's damn difficult(and got even harder after they tweaked the monsters to make it harder for BSTs to solo). Sure, you can solo up to about level 12, but after that, it's party time! And parties DEFINITALLY were fun, even in the low levels. If anything, the solo period was annoying since getting to a party in the dunes was much more fun than hunting orcs or stuff for a few hours.
And the customization you can do with the Job/Subjob system was fantastic. So many combinations possible, that they can cater to so many playstyles. I was primarily a Red Mage/White Mage in parties, but I'd also go Red Mage/Dark Knight for melee fun when alone or when I felt like being a bit different. It still worked and made my play experience fun.
I earned my AF gear. I did the quests, got the keys and chests, hunted the ghost and statue for my god damn hat with 12 others. I EARNED that and ENJOYED the questing. It was fantastic, especially the feeling of satisfaction afterwards, the feeling of 'Wow, I accomplished something and have something to show for it'. No Red Mage ever forgets their AF hat moment(nor do other classes I guess, but it's not the same awesomeness like a Red Mage in most cases).
I wasn't a dime-a-dozen. I knew my class like the back of my hand by my 50s, and I was a master of the trade beyond 60. Maat was NOT a cakewalk, however. He was one of the most annoying things I ever had to deal with... but again, this was a CHALLENGE. Just because I knew my class inside and out doesn't mean I should be entitled to easymode cakewalk rewards. I worked for that victory against Maat, and again, it was stupidly satisfying. Just to be able to walk around as a 75 Red Mage showed that I put forth time, effort, and dedication to get to where I was, and even if this is my only 75, it's still something to respect due to everything I worked through to get there. And people did respect me, and I respected other 75s in return, since it's a DAMN hard road to travel, especially back in the day.
I will never experience the same sensation that I felt taking my Red Mage to 75 in any game like I felt in FFXI... and I thank FFXI for the fun I had getting to 75. It was a wild rollercoaster ride, full of ups and downs, hardships and good times, successful team efforts and epic team defeats, but it was FUN. It was CHALLENGING. And everything, EVERYTHING I did felt like an achievement, a monumental achievement, not a dime-a-dozen achievement since I didn't have to go through it multiple times for multiple characters, just once for my one character and his (then) 15 jobs. My character felt like an actual character, an actual avatar of myself, a representation of what my achievemens and successes in this game can allow me to show. And it was awesome.
World of Warcraft... well, it was fun, but it felt lonely. Oh, and leveling to 60 in those days... cakewalk. I had a 60 Shaman, 60 Rogue, 60 Priest and 60 Druid... and the Shaman was geared out in epics. Granted, the days in BWL and MC were a fantastic throwback to the challenge of FFXI... but the updates WoW kept receiving destroyed that feel, and the fact that I HAD to have a different character for each class was a let down. Everything I did for one... I had the nagging feeling in the back of my head that I'll have to do this again if I want to play a different class... it was annoying, easy, and a time waster to be honest. The raiding scene when it was Onyxia, MC and BWL were about the closest feeling to challenge in WoW... but after that, it was all downhill and PvEasy.
FFXI's challenge made it fun. I want this challenge again. Some elements from WoW I would not mind in an FFXI-like game... WoW seemless world was very nice, the travel times in WoW were not as bad as FFXI, WoW's auction house system was nicer, jumping is awesome, PvP can (sometimes) be fun, and some degree of soloing is nice, but I do NOT want to play some PvEasy game like World of Warcraft where I can hit the max level in everything soloing quests and not even thinking. You HAD to think on your toes in FFXI when you were partying... everything CAN and WILL kill you if you fail your team, and you CAN de-level, and those fears looming over us made us push ourselves to the limit and play for the team effort, the group effort felt like an achievement itself when the group was successfully killing monsters and not wiping.
I don't know what else to say... FFXI was challenging, fun, and I didn't need alts. Respect was always shown to those who earned their way up to 75 in their classes or 100 in the craftings, because it's DAMN HARD to get there, and impossible without working alongside other people and giving your best at everything you did. From partying to crafting to quests to unlocking jobs or even just exploring an area for the hell of it, you put your best effort into it because if you didn't, the game's challenge would overcome you. And it WAS always challenging... and that's what I loved about FFXI.
The ease of life outside of actual partying would be nice to have from WoW... but I want that challenge from FFXI... we must ALL work our best... you cannot be a weak link in the party, or we all suffer. Pull your weight, and we all come out victorious. Laze about, and we're all set back. All or nothing, eye for an eye, team effort, all for one and one for all, no man left behind, we ALL pulled our weight and worked as a team to get where we are, and that's something that everyone can respect. And that feeling is what I hope remains in FFXI.
I personaly do not want to play FFXIV if they are to going to cater to casual players the same way that WoW is? I WANT it to be difficult to get to max level, I WANT to party with people, I DONT WANT to get to max level within a month. I hope SE doesn't screw over FFXI fans because WoWtards dont want a challenging MMORPG.
Honestly I don't care what the name of the game is as long as it offers a vast amount of content for all players. I would die for a game with a wealth of content that I could pick up at any time and enjoy the depth of content with out having to schedule my life around a second job to raid.
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
Comments
?? I am confused, u saying FFXI was aimed at casual gamers?
Also ... a more diverse class customization? You are kidding me right? what other game has a more diverse customization when it comes to class?
Why does MMO = forced grouping?
MMO means lots of people online playing the same game in the same world.
Why can't the grouping simply be encouraged, so that those that want to group can, and those that don't, don't have to. I'm not anti-grouping, I'm anti-forcing only one way of doing something. Sometimes I enjoy grouping, but I always hate it when any quest says "Oh, you simply don't have enough friends around you to hear what I have to say".
Do you think that if they didn't force grouping, no one would do so? If so, that's a poor reason to group. You should group because you want to, because it's more fun for you to play the game that way. And yes, I agree, an MMO should encourage grouping through extra rewards such that it's not more efficient to solo. I just want it to be possible, to not be forced to team with others to experience content.
As I said, I am not anti-grouping.
However, as for why solo in an MMO, I enjoy the persistant non-ending worlds, the teeming cities, the thriving auction houses; hell, I even enjoy just seeing others running around doing their thing. It makes a world seem alive in a way a single player game never could.
Also, there are some valid reasons to not group in an MMO. I resent the time it takes to round up a team, when I could just start playing now. I don't like that everyone has to adjust their preferred playing speed to something the group, or more often the tank, dictates. I like to take my time, others like to rush. And of course, there's the potential and frequent a-hole on the team factor.
Grouping can be fun and rewarding and absolutely belongs in the game. I fail to see why it has to be the only method.
Yeah well I think we basically agree but put emphasis on different factors, lol.
YES! I am a casual gamer. Thank you.
I am also confused? Were these just a quick post for rank?
This a response to the multiple posts about giving players a choice between soloing and grouping.
Choices are great, the problem is the players. The majority of players will take the path of least resistance in order to level. If xp gain and advancement by soloing or grouping is exactly even in a game then people will solo because it requires the least amount of effort. No LFG, no coordinating with other people, being able to go AFK whenever. These are all pros to soloing. The only way to make grouping attractive is to make it more efficient to advance while grouped. Then, even though people can still level solo, they will say the game "forces" grouping simply because it is more efficient.
This may come as a surprise to some of these posters, but you can solo in FFXI. It's just slow and grouping is a lot more efficient. But the choice is there, if you want to solo, you can.
This is exactly the argument you are trying to make against FFXI, but you are, in fact, advocating the way FFXI is currently set up.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Maybe soloing has become easier as the game has progressed but when I played and leveled my PLD my WAR and my BRD to 75 ... it was not something realistic you could do. And let us be realistic, you saying that u can solo in FFXI I am pretty sure referes to the killing of Easy Prays for 25-50 XP every few minutes...? In all seriousness asking for a realistic path for people to solo their characters is not advocating for the way FFXI is right now.
I want there to be a solo experience in FFXIV that allows someone to go to a zone or area and do a few quests / kill a few mobs that give him maybe xp/hour equivalent to maybe 1/2 or 3/5 of the xp that same person could get with a party. That would give casual players a way to advance their toons as well as incurage the use of Parties as a fast means to getting to high lvl.
It has been some time since I last played FFXI and I understand since then the leveling has been dumbed down a lot and that is fine for a game that during the years gets easier to play but I hope that getting to top level in FFXIV is a challange at least for the first 2 years of the game. (i dont mean that it would take 2 years to achieve max level :P )
All I want is for the game to be what the Developers want it to be.
Im not a casual gamer, and im also not a hardcore gamer. I like MMOs to have both casual and hardcore content so i can always log on and achieve something regardless of time constraints. The game doesnt have to be easy though just because it has casual, solo friendly content.
I don't really think wow should be seen as casual, you have to play tremendous amounts of times, and have to do so mutch to be even concidered an option for a guild to take you with on raids, where you then can do those raids over and over to finaly get that 1 piece of equip that you actually needed to be strong enough for further raids... its a never ending circle (untill you did the last raid over and over of course :P)
though i would like to have it casual yes, beeing someone that works all day, and has a live besides sitting at the computer,
i would not mind beeing able to login for only 1 hour, and do a small instance or a few quests in group
what especially bothers me in most games (where i'd like to see a better implementation in final XIV and other upcomming mmo's is group making. but there is nothing that can be done to completely make it easy, they can just implement a good way to make groups, yet it is still up to the comunity to use it the right way. how many times have i logged into a game, wanting to play for 1 hour, having to either join a group and wait till its full, or create one myself finding the right players, for 45 minutes, and having 15 minutes playtime.
thats why, tbh, i had enormously big fun in guild wars for a few years, because it is so easy to just embark on a mission for a short time and the game made you able to enter the mission within 2 minutes after login (trough henchmen) or up to 15 minutes if you have to find a party. but still alot better than bigger mmorpgs.
in short: yes i'd like to see it casual.
WoW is as casual as it can possibly get- I may not even want to consider it as an MMORPG at all.
There should be things aimed for both types of players. If you are casual, don't go on a raid. It's not made for the most casual type. You can get to some point but after that you can't progress without sacrificing more of your playtime to be able to go on those raids. At that point you can start over with a new character/job, or quit. That's just how it is- you don't play a single player game if you have nothing to accomplish there either.
FFXIV will most likely not be even as casual as WoW is right now- which is a good choice for SE to make.
I just don't comprehend since when WoW was viewed as a "casual players'" game.
Since you can log in and do your thing for 30 min and log out, giving nothing to the world of the game as a whole.
I dont see how you think WoW is not a game for the cassual player. Does it have content for hardcore players? Well it depends what u call Hardcore. It does have end game but not nearly as hardcore as FFXI.
I guess you'd have to be "hardcore" to put up with time consuming end game like in FF11.
Besides, most end game fights boil down to zerg, tank and spank, or kite in FF11...what a challenge those are.
You know there was statistic, only 8% of the entire playerbase of WoW had done Black Temple back during Burning Crusade, so there must be something "hardcore" about it.
Wow endgame is nothing but zerg. End of story. FFXI, we have some battles that are zerged (if your ls can do that), kited (if you have to), straight tanked, mana burned, etc. All of those entail a different strategy. Endgame fights can last from 2 minutes to 2 hours or more depending on what you are fighting.
And then there is salvage, which, nothing in WoW can even come close to or compare to. Sky, Sea, Znms, nothing in wow can be compared to them as well.
In short, they are different games, but one is more hardcore (drop rates are low, and gear is rare), as opposed to a game where everything is easy to come by.
Also, for the "I want to log in for 40 minutes a day crowd" you can do that in ffxi. There is plenty of content you can do now. Campaign, assualts, Fields of Valor, nyzul (still an assault), etc. Level sync also allows you to find a pt quick and can xp for only an hour or two and still get good xp.
Many endgame fights aren't as long as they used to be. Einherjar (30 minutes), salvage (100 minutes), limbus can be done in 20 minutes to an hour. You don't have to spend 4-6 hours a day playing, it's really your choice.
As for me, as long as they don't put in a stupid ass questing grind like every other damn mmo out there, then I will be fine. I'm tired of freaking quests. EQ, DAoC, WoW, War, Lotro, AoC, etc, etc, etc, all have quests. F2P games have quests. They are all boring and redundant to me. If I wanna play a single player game, I will pop in a console RPG, where I don't have to kill X nu,bher of enemies, and I get a good story and cutscenes. FFXI was different in terms of their grind, where you did in in a socialized pt setup, where you had a set role in the pt, could chat, and goof around. Was more exciting in the days before the mpk fix
Just give me my freedom of choice SE, like you do with FFXI. You don't point me to one place or the other, you let me decide what I wanna do with my game time. You let the players decide what zones they wanna make an xp camp in. You have more depth than any mmo (besides Ultima Online). Have a great endgame variety, and excellent job system. As long as you can still provide that (and the sense of satisfaction I get when I accomplish something), then I don't care what you do for casual gamers.
Do you even play WoW or played for a while, because that's a silly statement.
I agree with most of what you say after that, but be careful not to stereotype casuals too much, someone may play for an hour most sessions and then BOOM spend 5 hours logged in for an event or something the guild is doing or what not.
Also what's the point of a raid? To gain gear so you can raid? ^_^ The great things about an mmo is there are different ways to spend your time and have fun with others, level, raid, craft, dungeon crawl, and one playstyle isn't more important then another. Some people really do love leveling alts for years, it may not be for everyone but if that's what they like to do... As for quitting if I put in at least 6 months in a game I call that a success, if I can put in more I call that a game of choice.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
So I am a casual gamer? I can live with that very well if FFXI is considered a casual game. So um what do you consider WoW since I thought it was the posterchild for casual?
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Do you even play WoW or played for a while, because that's a silly statement.
Well, I got to 40 in WoW fairly fast. But I've played XI for 6 years now, so the bias towards a little harder MMO is there. And I don't say it like it's a fact, only my opinion
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I feel like the whole game plays more like a normal RPG with online elements than a true MMO. But what is a true MMO? We all have our own views, so I think it's not worth it to argue- I don't think I could 'prove' you wrong either way
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Do you even play WoW or played for a while, because that's a silly statement.
Well, I got to 40 in WoW fairly fast. But I've played XI for 6 years now, so the bias towards a little harder MMO is there. And I don't say it like it's a fact, only my opinion
.
I feel like the whole game plays more like a normal RPG with online elements than a true MMO. But what is a true MMO? We all have our own views, so I think it's not worth it to argue- I don't think I could 'prove' you wrong either way
.
Well, WoW was actually just ripping off EQ and DAoC (mainly DAoC), and thus has every play style that was in those games. They left out a lot of stuff they thought wasn't fun. It was never intended to be this casual game. They sped up the combat a lot though. In the end, when they released TBC, they then killed the majority of the content they had in the game. I honestly don't believe Blizzard really has a passion for the game, only the revenue it brings in.
SE on the other hand, seems to care about XI. They wanna maintain certain standards with FFXI, and they never waver on that stance. They might make a few things, easier, compared to what they were, but still, they keep it challenging. The only thing they have give us for no work, is the mog satchel. They have also added tons of content, not just a new dungeon and gear, and thus allowing the players to chose their own play style.
I'm tired of the casual/hardcore talk. Yes, FFXI is one of the most hardcore mmos. At the same time, it's pretty casual. You can log on and goof off with your friends. I have a friend online, who has only ever done dyna for endgame. He's been playing for 5 years, but would rather do other crap than endgame. It can be casual, if a person makes it casual. My personal belief is a casual mmo, is something you can relax, and chill with people while playing. Endgame != Casual for some ppl, but for me, it's pretty casual, cause we go...have fun, and it never feels like work
I would call WoW casual (clearly not a bad thing to a lot of people.) It didn't start out that way though, in fact it was really difficult the first time I started playing it. There were many more elites around and stuff like that.
I consider WoW casual because i can get to the end really quickly even when I'm not in a rush to lvl up. I consider it casual because things like raids are mostly endgame. And endgame gets you nowhere just better gear and stuff and more of a lobby to kill time while waiting for the next expansion or whatever.
I dunno WoW is fun but to get back on the topic:
I'm sure FFXIV will be vastly improved on but the topic is "Do I WANT FFXIV to be aimed at casual gamers" and the answer is:
No.
In fact I would love an MMO that finally "forces people to group" in order to advance. I remember someone posting a complaint about that earlier and to me it would be refreshing and fun.
No, I wan't FFXIV to be my home on the computer for years to come just like FFXI.
Not an MMO where I say what next after a couple months. I want content to be extremely challenging.
I wan't mobs that make me run for dear life when they see me.
I wan't excitement.
Final Fantasy has never catered much to the casual gamer. God I hope it dosen't start now.
A lot of MMOs have already gone that route, and it's becoming less and less popular. FFXI started out that way, and they lost a lot of players for it. This is one of the main reasons they chose to add soloable progressions through the game later in the game's life.
While I definitely enjoyed old FFXI, I think it would be a huge mistake for developers to repeat it's setup. However, like you, I don't want to see them going to other extreme and going for a WoW clone approach. I liked the crafting, renkai's, the very involved storyline. However, waiting for groups to wait for spawns, to camp and grind exp got old fairly quickly. When people started leaving, the waits got longer, the spawns became less interesting as well, and the game became a lot less fun.
It can NEVER work,you cannot have a game that caters to casual because the grouping aspect would be too powerful for the game then.It has to remain the same way otherwise it would lose the feel of a FF game.Example ..one player only has so many tools at his/her disposal, a group would have many more buffs or enfeebs to work with.
The only other thing i can think of is scaling and i really hope they do not go for that aspect as it really turns a MMO into a single player game.They mentioned they have some new mechanic never used before,i hope scaling is not it.SOE did use some scaling in it's Splitpaw saga expansion.
Personally i feel it will more along the lines of what Square introduced lately for casual players.
One must remember that CASUAL means just that,it does not mean play a game as a solo player.It means there is some mechanics that offer a player something for an hour or less.
WOW is not a casual game,it is a game geared more towards a solo player,witch is just a lame idea to begin with for a MMO.
Square has there independant single player games for the FF series ,so i do not see them turning the MMO game into a solofest.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I want FFXIV to be exactly like FFXI in the regards of it being heavily group dependant. It used to bother me once upon a time when I played FFXI but it made for a MUCH better community. Everybody knew wach other and were friendly bceause if you were an ass you got blacklisted. I hope to god FFXIV doesn't sell out and try to be a crappy WoW clone "because it sells"
The feel of Final Fantasy that sets it apart is that feeling like you're truly part of something bigger, something epic. Just because you have to work for it makesit all that more special. I hit the level cap in many games and still felt like a noob. The level curve and the fact that you need a group to get there made the level cap in FFXI seem so much more special. Like you had accomplished something, I hope they keep with that.
I think one of the problems here is people have different definitions on what they think is casual or hardcore. To me timesinks do not equal challenge. Do I want hardcore content? Hell yes. Hard challenging content is what keeps me striving to get better with my linkshells/guilds. There is nothing challenging or hard about being forced to spend countless hours bottlenecked by ridiculous time sinks. I always joked FFXI was a lifestyle and not a game. The fights were not the challenging part of it, getting enough time to play was. If I didn't have at least 3 hours to play I didn't bother logging in, thats the problem. Casual content doesn't have to focus on gear or levels either, there can be lots of sideways character progression. Most MMOs failed at this aspect, FFXI was actually pretty good at it, but it still took lots of hours.
Grouping should be A LOT more rewarding then soloing, its an MMO. That doesn't mean casual play shouldn't be viable. If I am gonna solo maybe I can knock out some quests or a bit of exp. It would also be nice to be able to log in and knock out some exp in smaller groups, like with a friend or two instead of needing a full group that takes an hour just to put together only to have your healer or tank leave. Casual doesn't have to be easy either, you can make casual content challenging.
Time sinks =! Challenge.
I played FFXI for a total of 2 years. A dedicated year at launch, and on-and off single months afterwards, mainly due to real life getting in the way after that first year.
I've also played World of Warcraft for about 2 years, with both years being continues, and again, when WoW launched.
World of Warcraft has NOTHING on the feel of accomplishment or challenge that FFXI had.
I had one job at level 75, a Red Mage(Maat was NOT fun). I worked my ass off to get this. I worked for my money, I worked for my experience in a party, I worked for my job levels in all my jobs, and while I say 'worked', it never FELT like work because I ENJOYED it. It was challenging in FFXI to do many things, including leveling, and it was this challenge I loved because it always felt like I achieved something fantastic. And since all my jobs were linked to my one character, I never felt like 'I need to do this again on another character' because it was NEVER NECESSARY. Alts? Who needs alts(other than for storage for those inclined to it), every job was at your fingertips and could be changed on a whim, with no need to send things to alts or farm things for alts or any of that crap. You did things for YOURSELF, to progress YOUR character further and accomplish the many difficult tasks needed to futher progress your character's life and achievements, jobs, items, etc. Time NEVER felt wasted because I had no other character than my one and only Hume, and I never needed anything else thanks to the job system. If I wanted to play my Red Mage, I did. If I felt like being a Dark Knight, I changed and did that. If I wanted to level from level 1 all over again, I pick a job I never leveled yet and roll with that in the newbie grounds, with newbie stats and newbie gear. If I learned a new spell usable by multiple jobs(Like 'Cure'), it felt satisfying to know that I don't have to learn this again on any other jobs that know it, and that if I were to level the jobs that did know it, I would get it at the proper level.
And you had to EARN your levels too, in parties where you played as a team to take down monsters. Even as a beastmaster soloing, they still earned their levels since it's damn difficult(and got even harder after they tweaked the monsters to make it harder for BSTs to solo). Sure, you can solo up to about level 12, but after that, it's party time! And parties DEFINITALLY were fun, even in the low levels. If anything, the solo period was annoying since getting to a party in the dunes was much more fun than hunting orcs or stuff for a few hours.
And the customization you can do with the Job/Subjob system was fantastic. So many combinations possible, that they can cater to so many playstyles. I was primarily a Red Mage/White Mage in parties, but I'd also go Red Mage/Dark Knight for melee fun when alone or when I felt like being a bit different. It still worked and made my play experience fun.
I earned my AF gear. I did the quests, got the keys and chests, hunted the ghost and statue for my god damn hat with 12 others. I EARNED that and ENJOYED the questing. It was fantastic, especially the feeling of satisfaction afterwards, the feeling of 'Wow, I accomplished something and have something to show for it'. No Red Mage ever forgets their AF hat moment(nor do other classes I guess, but it's not the same awesomeness like a Red Mage in most cases).
I wasn't a dime-a-dozen. I knew my class like the back of my hand by my 50s, and I was a master of the trade beyond 60. Maat was NOT a cakewalk, however. He was one of the most annoying things I ever had to deal with... but again, this was a CHALLENGE. Just because I knew my class inside and out doesn't mean I should be entitled to easymode cakewalk rewards. I worked for that victory against Maat, and again, it was stupidly satisfying. Just to be able to walk around as a 75 Red Mage showed that I put forth time, effort, and dedication to get to where I was, and even if this is my only 75, it's still something to respect due to everything I worked through to get there. And people did respect me, and I respected other 75s in return, since it's a DAMN hard road to travel, especially back in the day.
I will never experience the same sensation that I felt taking my Red Mage to 75 in any game like I felt in FFXI... and I thank FFXI for the fun I had getting to 75. It was a wild rollercoaster ride, full of ups and downs, hardships and good times, successful team efforts and epic team defeats, but it was FUN. It was CHALLENGING. And everything, EVERYTHING I did felt like an achievement, a monumental achievement, not a dime-a-dozen achievement since I didn't have to go through it multiple times for multiple characters, just once for my one character and his (then) 15 jobs. My character felt like an actual character, an actual avatar of myself, a representation of what my achievemens and successes in this game can allow me to show. And it was awesome.
World of Warcraft... well, it was fun, but it felt lonely. Oh, and leveling to 60 in those days... cakewalk. I had a 60 Shaman, 60 Rogue, 60 Priest and 60 Druid... and the Shaman was geared out in epics. Granted, the days in BWL and MC were a fantastic throwback to the challenge of FFXI... but the updates WoW kept receiving destroyed that feel, and the fact that I HAD to have a different character for each class was a let down. Everything I did for one... I had the nagging feeling in the back of my head that I'll have to do this again if I want to play a different class... it was annoying, easy, and a time waster to be honest. The raiding scene when it was Onyxia, MC and BWL were about the closest feeling to challenge in WoW... but after that, it was all downhill and PvEasy.
FFXI's challenge made it fun. I want this challenge again. Some elements from WoW I would not mind in an FFXI-like game... WoW seemless world was very nice, the travel times in WoW were not as bad as FFXI, WoW's auction house system was nicer, jumping is awesome, PvP can (sometimes) be fun, and some degree of soloing is nice, but I do NOT want to play some PvEasy game like World of Warcraft where I can hit the max level in everything soloing quests and not even thinking. You HAD to think on your toes in FFXI when you were partying... everything CAN and WILL kill you if you fail your team, and you CAN de-level, and those fears looming over us made us push ourselves to the limit and play for the team effort, the group effort felt like an achievement itself when the group was successfully killing monsters and not wiping.
I don't know what else to say... FFXI was challenging, fun, and I didn't need alts. Respect was always shown to those who earned their way up to 75 in their classes or 100 in the craftings, because it's DAMN HARD to get there, and impossible without working alongside other people and giving your best at everything you did. From partying to crafting to quests to unlocking jobs or even just exploring an area for the hell of it, you put your best effort into it because if you didn't, the game's challenge would overcome you. And it WAS always challenging... and that's what I loved about FFXI.
The ease of life outside of actual partying would be nice to have from WoW... but I want that challenge from FFXI... we must ALL work our best... you cannot be a weak link in the party, or we all suffer. Pull your weight, and we all come out victorious. Laze about, and we're all set back. All or nothing, eye for an eye, team effort, all for one and one for all, no man left behind, we ALL pulled our weight and worked as a team to get where we are, and that's something that everyone can respect. And that feeling is what I hope remains in FFXI.
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I personaly do not want to play FFXIV if they are to going to cater to casual players the same way that WoW is? I WANT it to be difficult to get to max level, I WANT to party with people, I DONT WANT to get to max level within a month. I hope SE doesn't screw over FFXI fans because WoWtards dont want a challenging MMORPG.
Honestly I don't care what the name of the game is as long as it offers a vast amount of content for all players. I would die for a game with a wealth of content that I could pick up at any time and enjoy the depth of content with out having to schedule my life around a second job to raid.
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy