Something new would require more money to spend and I don't believe deleopers are looking to spend more money.
Not true.
Facebook's Mafia Wars is an entirely new MMORPG model (though I'm not sure who originated the idea) which was probably dirt cheap to develop. New model, dirt cheap.
But it also proves my earlier point: developing something new is risky (because as popular as Mafia Wars is, the gameplay is questionable and the balance is terrible.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Something new would require more money to spend and I don't believe deleopers are looking to spend more money.
Not true.
Facebook's Mafia Wars is an entirely new MMORPG model (though I'm not sure who originated the idea) which was probably dirt cheap to develop. New model, dirt cheap.
But it also proves my earlier point: developing something new is risky (because as popular as Mafia Wars is, the gameplay is questionable and the balance is terrible.)
Not saying your wrong and their could be alot of exceptions here and there but devs aren't going to waste a ton of money on risky ideas or so it seems. Since Everquest, have we had something really new that has jumpstarted the mmo industry ? They all use the same quest system and same fedex quests and same endgame. It seems it is a contest to see who can copy who the fastest and make the most money these days.
What wrong in taking a working formula to create a player base before being innovative? There's always room to improve and set new trends as long as companies play safe for the first months, and play safe=doing what has been done for years with a moderate success. It's way too risky for any company to try and find out what players like without using what experience tells them.
Because the same reason J-LO don't sell records anymore: It has been done. And it has been done a lot of times now.
Since Wows release only one game ever reached over a million subs: Guildwars (western players here). LOTRO, WAR and AoC all had suprisingly few players compared to Wow. Not because they are bad games but because you just can make the same thing so many times.
And also because it is coming new games that are innovative and different. The old republic will be a lot more like KOTOR than a traditional MMO, WoDO will become a RPG sandbox without levels and Guildwars 2 will finally give us a RvR game with good graphics and fast gameplay, and it wont have a levelcap at all.
And there are other upcomming games like MO also and whatever Bethesda is doing, and Copernicus that might be close to Wow/ EQ but with an actual good story created by a bestseller author.
As long as everyone else is doing the same game with a slightly difference then the old copy eachother stuff works. But one of all these upcomming games will be both fun and innovative and when that happens, everyone making stuff the old way will get really poor.
It have happened before, the following games did this to their genre: Quake 2, Half-life, Total annhilation, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldurs gate, Neverwinter nights, The sims, GTA.... New thinking games that are actually good kills of good old fashion games. You can't be standing in the same point forever.
J-LO released a bunch of identical albums that sold very well but then suddenly no one bought her latest album...
Originally posted by SaintViktor Not saying your wrong and their could be alot of exceptions here and there but devs aren't going to waste a ton of money on risky ideas or so it seems. Since Everquest, have we had something really new that has jumpstarted the mmo industry ? They all use the same quest system and same fedex quests and same endgame. It seems it is a contest to see who can copy who the fastest and make the most money these days.
But that was my point. MMOs like Mafia Wars and Mobsters have over 12 million users (as of june '09: link) and are certainly a different type of MMO.
Your natural reaction might be "yeah, but those games suck" which indicates that you're actively searching for an EQ-like game. People see what they look for - if EQ-like games are all you're looking for, that's all you'll see.
Just like my New Car Model example earlier, where the first (innovative) year of a new model often sucks, the next wave of social MMOs are likely to be vast improvements. They'll be "clones" of Mafia Wars/Mobsters; they won't be innovative, but they'll be the first truly solid social games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What wrong in taking a working formula to create a player base before being innovative? There's always room to improve and set new trends as long as companies play safe for the first months, and play safe=doing what has been done for years with a moderate success. It's way too risky for any company to try and find out what players like without using what experience tells them.
Because the same reason J-LO don't sell records anymore: It has been done. And it has been done a lot of times now.
Since Wows release only one game ever reached over a million subs: Guildwars (western players here). LOTRO, WAR and AoC all had suprisingly few players compared to Wow. Not because they are bad games but because you just can make the same thing so many times.
And also because it is coming new games that are innovative and different. The old republic will be a lot more like KOTOR than a traditional MMO, WoDO will become a RPG sandbox without levels and Guildwars 2 will finally give us a RvR game with good graphics and fast gameplay, and it wont have a levelcap at all.
And there are other upcomming games like MO also and whatever Bethesda is doing, and Copernicus that might be close to Wow/ EQ but with an actual good story created by a bestseller author.
As long as everyone else is doing the same game with a slightly difference then the old copy eachother stuff works. But one of all these upcomming games will be both fun and innovative and when that happens, everyone making stuff the old way will get really poor.
It have happened before, the following games did this to their genre: Quake 2, Half-life, Total annhilation, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldurs gate, Neverwinter nights, The sims, GTA.... New thinking games that are actually good kills of good old fashion games. You can't be standing in the same point forever.
J-LO released a bunch of identical albums that sold very well but then suddenly no one bought her latest album...
After reading the forums of the games you named, how can you say people quit them because of being the same that has been done?
People quit AoC because of a terrible performance and a bugs galore.
People quit War because it's a RvR game where you can't even PvP without crashing or freezing.
I don't know why people quit Lotro, I guess their release time was critical tho.
Very few "I quit" posts refered to what we are talking about in here.
there are indie companies doing alot of what y'all ask for, sure not everything at once due to time/money/tech problems but hey dont say there will be nothing new when there are human beings who do read and filter through the trash to find that gleaming golden nugget of awesome. There will always be a change from the norm to something better... it has to get worse before it is noticed just toget people to improve it.
Why can’t we have one MMO that has many rulesets on different servers? I think when building a game, by far the greatest amount of work will be doing all the models and animations and to have the servers running well. Once that is done it wouldn’t be too complicated to put everything together in several different ways to specific to different groups of players. In many games there are PvP and non-PvP servers. Why not push that a little further.
For instance, one could remove all quests form WOW and put ffa pvp and full loot in it instead. Ok, to have a well rounded game, there need to be more changes than that but it would be far easier than starting everything from sketch.
Why can’t we have one MMO that has many rulesets on different servers? I think when building a game, by far the greatest amount of work will be doing all the models and animations and to have the servers running well. Once that is done it wouldn’t be too complicated to put everything together in several different ways to specific to different groups of players. In many games there are PvP and non-PvP servers. Why not push that a little further.
For instance, one could remove all quests form WOW and put ffa pvp and full loot in it instead. Ok, to have a well rounded game, there need to be more changes than that but it would be far easier than starting everything from sketch.
I don't know for sure, but I think it's actually more costly to do that than you think. You are right, after the game is made, changing the code for some different rules wouldn't be THAT difficult. You can easily change things like xp, loot drops, PvP areas, whether or not Mobs BAF, and so on.
However, you have to maintain these servers. They need bug fixes, updates, and so on. One dev team working on one code is cost effecient. You do any changes, they get implemented to all servers.
But if you have different servers, now you have different code to keep up with, and you need more than one dev team, which costs lots of money.
Again, just guessing, but that's probably why. Some games do just flip a PvP switch and run a PvP server, but they don't do much more than that.
After reading the forums of the games you named, how can you say people quit them because of being the same that has been done? People quit AoC because of a terrible performance and a bugs galore. People quit War because it's a RvR game where you can't even PvP without crashing or freezing. I don't know why people quit Lotro, I guess their release time was critical tho. Very few "I quit" posts refered to what we are talking about in here.
That the games were released too early didn't help them either but if they offered more of a fresh gameplay they would have been a lot bigger now.
I also read those forums and particulary in WAR did many Wow players go back to Wow again because WAR didn't offer anything new. The players already had high Wow level characters so why start from the beginning again to do basicly the same thing?
Remember that Everquest also had a lot of buggs when it released (and so did actually Wow too, even if it was a lot less than EQ) and it did fine.
There were some very well thought out posts including ops post. I can remember a few years back a regular wrote a response to a rant, something to the point of stop by once a month see what there is to see here but not look to any real innovations for about 5 + years. I did not realize at the time how true that statement was.
While a few years ago when a developer changed game play in one patch there was massive outcry over the net, rants galore. I think more folks today leave more quietly. They know what they say or post does not really matter. In the end even on the game fourms the "why i am going to end my subscription posts hardly matter", The same response of can i have your stuff is always stated.
Any beta the past few years the fourms would be filled of, can we have non combat gear? Can you add social things to do combat all the time is boring. Will there be housing? Mounts? It seems there is a sameness that most players want in each of the games they try. With so many linear offerings these days and in the near future there is just not much to choose from that will be new or different.
Short wonderfuly done movie spills while screen is loading or plenty of individual instances is not enough to keep a player playing and paying if the game play is the same.
I will add though when i am enjoying a mmorpg/playing i am not spending as much on other games, rather pc or game console games.
With the current grind formal all MMOs share the only solution to spice it up seems to make actually doing the grind fun by altering the play style.
The new starwars MMO is a good example, if it was Jedi Knight/Academy style I'd love it (with full dismemberment of course lol). I just loved running into a Sith temple sabering anything that moved and repeating or console spawning multiple Jedi to go wild.
If full action became mainstream it would be a huge step forward, but the casual gamer prefer that type of gameplay be kept in the FPS market.
There are other completely new MMO, check out Street Gears MMO, check out other soccer or arcade MMO games. They are totally different and feature a different way to play often without progression.
But they don't really care if you buy something or not, you buy the game and a few items and they're happy if you never buy anything again and can keep playing on their server, mainting the server is cheap for them.
The current P2P trend and WoW-clones are just going to crash and burn. Other games will just take over.
There are other completely new MMO, check out Street Gears MMO, check out other soccer or arcade MMO games. They are totally different and feature a different way to play often without progression. But they don't really care if you buy something or not, you buy the game and a few items and they're happy if you never buy anything again and can keep playing on their server, mainting the server is cheap for them. The current P2P trend and WoW-clones are just going to crash and burn. Other games will just take over.
Your assuming people with quit and just bend over for this new trend. It's a competitive market so if you were right, and lets assume you were, it would only mean better and near FINISHED products published to make P2P still valid or everything goes F2P. Giving players more "free" content just for trying the game hopefully to hook them into getting something from the itemshop.
It will be win win for gamers, because the current trend is to make people pay for betas and F2P will phase that out soon as they come out with a hit.
That the games were released too early didn't help them either but if they offered more of a fresh gameplay they would have been a lot bigger now. I also read those forums and particulary in WAR did many Wow players go back to Wow again because WAR didn't offer anything new. The players already had high Wow level characters so why start from the beginning again to do basicly the same thing?
Agree that they release too early for thier own good, pressure by publisher most likely. But regarding WoW players goes back to WoW because they already have high lvl toon so unwilling to start over on a new game, i have to disagree.
They are willing to start a new charc that's what bring them to these games in the first place. Many of them are tired of WoW, but after coming and seeing that its just a WoW-wanabe and yet so much worst, they go back!
And i agree with Heerobya that only big companies will be able to truly come out with something totally new due to the resources they have, and Blizz next mmo will most likely be that something...
Can anything new actually be done? i mean just look at movies, books, the stories, the characters...i just look around and think damn we have pretty much done everything already. Anytime something so called new comes out, when you sit and look at it its still basically something that has been done before, just slightly tweaked to make it hopefully a lil different. I think the world is out of ideas.
Yeah I kind of agree with this. All thats left to do is change how we interact with it.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Comments
roll on Mortal Online.
Something new would require more money to spend and I don't believe developers are looking to spend more money.
Not true.
Facebook's Mafia Wars is an entirely new MMORPG model (though I'm not sure who originated the idea) which was probably dirt cheap to develop. New model, dirt cheap.
But it also proves my earlier point: developing something new is risky (because as popular as Mafia Wars is, the gameplay is questionable and the balance is terrible.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Not true.
Facebook's Mafia Wars is an entirely new MMORPG model (though I'm not sure who originated the idea) which was probably dirt cheap to develop. New model, dirt cheap.
But it also proves my earlier point: developing something new is risky (because as popular as Mafia Wars is, the gameplay is questionable and the balance is terrible.)
Not saying your wrong and their could be alot of exceptions here and there but devs aren't going to waste a ton of money on risky ideas or so it seems. Since Everquest, have we had something really new that has jumpstarted the mmo industry ? They all use the same quest system and same fedex quests and same endgame. It seems it is a contest to see who can copy who the fastest and make the most money these days.
Because the same reason J-LO don't sell records anymore: It has been done. And it has been done a lot of times now.
Since Wows release only one game ever reached over a million subs: Guildwars (western players here). LOTRO, WAR and AoC all had suprisingly few players compared to Wow. Not because they are bad games but because you just can make the same thing so many times.
And also because it is coming new games that are innovative and different. The old republic will be a lot more like KOTOR than a traditional MMO, WoDO will become a RPG sandbox without levels and Guildwars 2 will finally give us a RvR game with good graphics and fast gameplay, and it wont have a levelcap at all.
And there are other upcomming games like MO also and whatever Bethesda is doing, and Copernicus that might be close to Wow/ EQ but with an actual good story created by a bestseller author.
As long as everyone else is doing the same game with a slightly difference then the old copy eachother stuff works. But one of all these upcomming games will be both fun and innovative and when that happens, everyone making stuff the old way will get really poor.
It have happened before, the following games did this to their genre: Quake 2, Half-life, Total annhilation, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldurs gate, Neverwinter nights, The sims, GTA.... New thinking games that are actually good kills of good old fashion games. You can't be standing in the same point forever.
J-LO released a bunch of identical albums that sold very well but then suddenly no one bought her latest album...
But that was my point. MMOs like Mafia Wars and Mobsters have over 12 million users (as of june '09: link) and are certainly a different type of MMO.
Your natural reaction might be "yeah, but those games suck" which indicates that you're actively searching for an EQ-like game. People see what they look for - if EQ-like games are all you're looking for, that's all you'll see.
Just like my New Car Model example earlier, where the first (innovative) year of a new model often sucks, the next wave of social MMOs are likely to be vast improvements. They'll be "clones" of Mafia Wars/Mobsters; they won't be innovative, but they'll be the first truly solid social games.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Because the same reason J-LO don't sell records anymore: It has been done. And it has been done a lot of times now.
Since Wows release only one game ever reached over a million subs: Guildwars (western players here). LOTRO, WAR and AoC all had suprisingly few players compared to Wow. Not because they are bad games but because you just can make the same thing so many times.
And also because it is coming new games that are innovative and different. The old republic will be a lot more like KOTOR than a traditional MMO, WoDO will become a RPG sandbox without levels and Guildwars 2 will finally give us a RvR game with good graphics and fast gameplay, and it wont have a levelcap at all.
And there are other upcomming games like MO also and whatever Bethesda is doing, and Copernicus that might be close to Wow/ EQ but with an actual good story created by a bestseller author.
As long as everyone else is doing the same game with a slightly difference then the old copy eachother stuff works. But one of all these upcomming games will be both fun and innovative and when that happens, everyone making stuff the old way will get really poor.
It have happened before, the following games did this to their genre: Quake 2, Half-life, Total annhilation, Starcraft, Diablo, Baldurs gate, Neverwinter nights, The sims, GTA.... New thinking games that are actually good kills of good old fashion games. You can't be standing in the same point forever.
J-LO released a bunch of identical albums that sold very well but then suddenly no one bought her latest album...
After reading the forums of the games you named, how can you say people quit them because of being the same that has been done?
People quit AoC because of a terrible performance and a bugs galore.
People quit War because it's a RvR game where you can't even PvP without crashing or freezing.
I don't know why people quit Lotro, I guess their release time was critical tho.
Very few "I quit" posts refered to what we are talking about in here.
hmm how does one delete their post- edit and deletion when i finds
bah didnt find it.
well edit #3 or so;
there are indie companies doing alot of what y'all ask for, sure not everything at once due to time/money/tech problems but hey dont say there will be nothing new when there are human beings who do read and filter through the trash to find that gleaming golden nugget of awesome. There will always be a change from the norm to something better... it has to get worse before it is noticed just toget people to improve it.
Why can’t we have one MMO that has many rulesets on different servers? I think when building a game, by far the greatest amount of work will be doing all the models and animations and to have the servers running well. Once that is done it wouldn’t be too complicated to put everything together in several different ways to specific to different groups of players. In many games there are PvP and non-PvP servers. Why not push that a little further.
For instance, one could remove all quests form WOW and put ffa pvp and full loot in it instead. Ok, to have a well rounded game, there need to be more changes than that but it would be far easier than starting everything from sketch.
I don't know for sure, but I think it's actually more costly to do that than you think. You are right, after the game is made, changing the code for some different rules wouldn't be THAT difficult. You can easily change things like xp, loot drops, PvP areas, whether or not Mobs BAF, and so on.
However, you have to maintain these servers. They need bug fixes, updates, and so on. One dev team working on one code is cost effecient. You do any changes, they get implemented to all servers.
But if you have different servers, now you have different code to keep up with, and you need more than one dev team, which costs lots of money.
Again, just guessing, but that's probably why. Some games do just flip a PvP switch and run a PvP server, but they don't do much more than that.
That the games were released too early didn't help them either but if they offered more of a fresh gameplay they would have been a lot bigger now.
I also read those forums and particulary in WAR did many Wow players go back to Wow again because WAR didn't offer anything new. The players already had high Wow level characters so why start from the beginning again to do basicly the same thing?
Remember that Everquest also had a lot of buggs when it released (and so did actually Wow too, even if it was a lot less than EQ) and it did fine.
There were some very well thought out posts including ops post. I can remember a few years back a regular wrote a response to a rant, something to the point of stop by once a month see what there is to see here but not look to any real innovations for about 5 + years. I did not realize at the time how true that statement was.
While a few years ago when a developer changed game play in one patch there was massive outcry over the net, rants galore. I think more folks today leave more quietly. They know what they say or post does not really matter. In the end even on the game fourms the "why i am going to end my subscription posts hardly matter", The same response of can i have your stuff is always stated.
Any beta the past few years the fourms would be filled of, can we have non combat gear? Can you add social things to do combat all the time is boring. Will there be housing? Mounts? It seems there is a sameness that most players want in each of the games they try. With so many linear offerings these days and in the near future there is just not much to choose from that will be new or different.
Short wonderfuly done movie spills while screen is loading or plenty of individual instances is not enough to keep a player playing and paying if the game play is the same.
I will add though when i am enjoying a mmorpg/playing i am not spending as much on other games, rather pc or game console games.
With the current grind formal all MMOs share the only solution to spice it up seems to make actually doing the grind fun by altering the play style.
The new starwars MMO is a good example, if it was Jedi Knight/Academy style I'd love it (with full dismemberment of course lol). I just loved running into a Sith temple sabering anything that moved and repeating or console spawning multiple Jedi to go wild.
If full action became mainstream it would be a huge step forward, but the casual gamer prefer that type of gameplay be kept in the FPS market.
There are other completely new MMO, check out Street Gears MMO, check out other soccer or arcade MMO games. They are totally different and feature a different way to play often without progression.
But they don't really care if you buy something or not, you buy the game and a few items and they're happy if you never buy anything again and can keep playing on their server, mainting the server is cheap for them.
The current P2P trend and WoW-clones are just going to crash and burn. Other games will just take over.
Your assuming people with quit and just bend over for this new trend. It's a competitive market so if you were right, and lets assume you were, it would only mean better and near FINISHED products published to make P2P still valid or everything goes F2P. Giving players more "free" content just for trying the game hopefully to hook them into getting something from the itemshop.
It will be win win for gamers, because the current trend is to make people pay for betas and F2P will phase that out soon as they come out with a hit.
Agree that they release too early for thier own good, pressure by publisher most likely. But regarding WoW players goes back to WoW because they already have high lvl toon so unwilling to start over on a new game, i have to disagree.
They are willing to start a new charc that's what bring them to these games in the first place. Many of them are tired of WoW, but after coming and seeing that its just a WoW-wanabe and yet so much worst, they go back!
And i agree with Heerobya that only big companies will be able to truly come out with something totally new due to the resources they have, and Blizz next mmo will most likely be that something...
RIP Orc Choppa
There are quite a few unique MMO's out there, or being developed right now (like Mortal Online). You only need to look.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Yeah I kind of agree with this. All thats left to do is change how we interact with it.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD