I don't understand it, he puts good arguments and even describes how a game should look, yet you call him troll. That is phucked up, no wonder the progress in this field is so slow.
The only name-calling that I have witnessed has come from commercialized gamers, and I think it is because they are defensive and protective of their linear, copy-and-paste model. They do not "honestly" want innovation. We want innovation, so they try to make it about technology, or graphics, or EVE.
We want to redefine the way players experience the MMORPG through innovation, and many people have offered some great ideas on how to achieve that (from item customization tools to interactive environments).
These commercialized gamers, many but not all, are about force. Forced-fed gameplay. Controlled gameplay. We are, at the end of the day, about options, variety, and diversity. In a word, freedom.
I thought this was a linear vs sandbox MMORPG thread, but what the hell do you mean with all that immersion gamers division? You should name games before mentioning the gamers. After all, you're talking about games lacking innovation according to the title, and not players/communities being good or bad. I also feel you're not letting your objectivity work as it should be, because of your last beloved game or something.
It is not about any one or two or three or fifteen specific games. It is about the lack of INNOVATION --are some people deliberately not reading this? I am serious. I am so serious right now. Did I even use the word "sandbox" ever? Ever?-- in the MMORPG industry.
I have no last beloved game. I try to not disclose a lot about myself for various reasons. Where are some of you reading about this last beloved game? I never played it! Hell, if YOU have a lost beloved game, let's talk about it. BUT! I do not have one, although YOU say I do . . . I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Every game I can think in recent memory that I have played has lacked INNOVATIVE features in crucial areas where innovation would really, in my and others theory, help this industry.
I have never used sophisticated or complex terms to define "innovation" at all. This is not about ME, a sandbox, or any "previously beloved game."
It is about the industry and the tension between commercialized/linear gamers and immersion gamers. The industry is creating games for commercialized gamers (selling the same product to the same people) and that is why innovation is lacking or missing in games. I try to never (ever) talk about myself, but this "beloved previous game" stuff is not only speculative (that is being nice) but borderline silly. Innovation. That is the topic. Innovation. Where is it in MMORPGs? It is missing. Why is it missing? The tastes and preferences of commercialized gamers --controlled gameplay, polished environments, e.g.-- dominate the "creative" direction.
Do not read words beyond their plain and clear meaning; we have had people replace "commercialized" with "idiot" and so forth, which is neither accurate nor honest.
to MMORPGs. Marvels and miracles will occur in this industry via innovation.
MMOs are pastimes, not alternative realities. To give you all the stuff on your list designers would have to be Gods, not computer programmers.
I disagree with your premise that MMORPGs are "not alternative realities." MMORPGs are alternative realities. This is really not debatable, but I am willing to debate it if you can support your argument. I encourage you to reevaluate the premise that MMORPGs are "not alternative realities."
It is not a distinction between "God and computer programmer." It is a distinction between artists and scientists. We need more art in MMORPGs and less science/process.
More than willing to engage in a deeper discussion with you (or anyone) on the above points.
Originally posted by declaredemer I disagree with your premise that MMORPGs are "not alternative realities." MMORPGs are alternative realities. This is really not debatable, but I am willing to debate it if you can support your argument. I encourage you to reevaluate the premise that MMORPGs are "not alternative realities."
The concern that a lot of us have is your zeal over immersion, alternate realities and such. Bhagpuss wrote what he did because he wants to encourage you to step away from the premise of finding something marvelous and miraculous in a computer-generated fantasy. It's simply not healthy to seek out that much fulfillment from anything other than the world around you.
It's just a game. When you lose sight of that, you're headed for a world of hurt. There's your alternate reality.
I don't expect you to latch onto this simply because a couple men in a discussion forum said it to you. It's difficult to tell a highly-opinionated 29-year-old man much of anything. I know, I was one once. I assume that you'll have to dive off your personal cliff and find out that it produces a wonderful sensation of flying - for a while. I'm just happy that somebody said something to you before you got your chance to jump.
The concern that a lot of us have is your zeal over immersion, alternate realities and such. Bhagpuss wrote what he did because he wants to encourage you to step away from the premise of finding something marvelous and miraculous in a computer-generated fantasy. It's simply not healthy to seek out that much fulfillment from anything other than the world around you. It's just a game. When you lose sight of that, you're headed for a world of hurt. There's your alternate reality. I don't expect you to latch onto this simply because a couple men in a discussion forum said it to you. It's difficult to tell a highly-opinionated 29-year-old man much of anything. I know, I was one once. I assume that you'll have to dive off your personal cliff and find out that it produces a wonderful sensation of flying - for a while. I'm just happy that somebody said something to you before you got your chance to jump.
"Zeal over immersion." It is not a zeal but an emphasis, and a necessary one at that.
"Bhagpuss wrote what he did because he wants." How do you know what "he wants"? I am totally serious, and I am eager to know how you know what he wants.
"Marvels and miracles" is hyperbole. It is an exaggeration. I am slightly surprised you do not see that. If this were three weeks ago, I would not have addressed this because I would believe you were referencing those words and using them in a serious context for a purpose not worthy of my time to address it. Today, however, I understand that people's reading comprehensions and memories are no where near . . . where I previously expected them to be. If you do not see that that as anything but hyperbole, then there is nothing using online as I medium I could do to help you.
"It's simply not healthy." I think it is unhealthful, for the and mind, to engage is repetitive, redundant, controlled, linear, and unthinking tasks day in and day out. In fact, I would suggest that if developers would harness just some of our idea, not only would the game become more vibrant but the entire industry. It sounds like an exaggeration --and I am required at this point to say "it sounds like an exaggeration" because I KNOW some people (namely you, and that is not an insult at all) cannot make the distinction-- but it would be much (much) more healthful.
"It's just a game." I have plenty of games. For ME, and for many, it is NOT a game. It is a world. It is an alternative world that is, hopefully, and ought to be, bizarre and astonishing.
"A highly-opinionated 29-year-old man much of anything." I do not take this insult personally, other than to say I am not 29 . . . and I am not an old man. I graduated college early, and I earned my M.B.A. early for reasons of luck and connections (and studying abroad) that I will not go into. I was the youngest in my M.B.A. program. If I seem like an "old man," I consider that to be a compliment. Thank you.
"Dive off your personal cliff." I am not sure what that means at all, and I am, as you say, an "old man."
"I'm just happy somebody said something to you before you got your chance to jump." I honestly have no idea what this means, despite my life, professional, and educational experiences. I think it is supposed to be a clever way of telling me to "fuck off," but you have awfully failed in that respect. Frankly, I am not sure what it means, but I am not that eager to know either.
And, as always, if you have the capacity and capability, I welcome, invite, and even encourage any and all challenges that distinguish between "commercialized" and "immersion" gamers. We can toss personal insults because some of us might take this personally --why? I am not entirely sure, "unhealthful" (as my friend above said) levels of sensitivity-- but I will neither accept nor take them personally. Personal insults, and pathetic ways of telling me to "fuck off" (LOL), will neither discourage me nor elicit an emotional response. On the other hand, the inability to detect hyperbole will elicit a response when the failure is too obvious for me to ignore.
MMORPGing is at a crossroads; it will either continue the copy-and-paste model to appeal to "commericialized" gamers, or it will not only enlarge the pie but achieve heights yet unimagined through innovation. The best way to not innovate in this industry is to sell the same product to the same (commercialized) people.
Until then, no company or game is getting MY 15.00. You must confess, especially you people on the "commercialized" side with heightened sensitivity, I put my money where my mouth is.
The mystery and tragedy of the destruction of immersion in MMORPGs has created a vacuum of creativity. Truly innovative concepts, features, tools, and so forth are lacking, missing, and absent in today's MMORPGs. I know because I have tried just about all of them. And, frankly, they all "feel" and "play" the same.
It has left the gaming community suspicious, skeptical, and even distrustful of the industry in general. Many among us, and I include myself in this group, will not try games until a trial version is released. Why? We have been burned by incomplete, buggy, and, perhaps worse of all, sameness in "new" MMORPGs.
It is less what we want --immersion, customization, deep Questing, player empowerment tools-- than what developers can create; i.e., bringing not only new forms and styles to MMORPGs but bringing in a larger audience as well. The industry has room, a great deal of room, to grow. The linear MMORPG, however, has little room to grow and will not bring in new customers.
New Products = New Customers
Innovation = Evolution
Same Product = Same Customers
Payment Schemes = De-evolution
We are excited about innovation in this industry, and we want to developers use their collective creative energies to take gameplay to new, different, and fascinating levels. Worlds that feel real not only through the use of technology but by making players a part of it. Player characters with personalities, attributes, and appearances different from all others. Quests that are truly a Quest whose outcome results in something substantial in the world and/or the Hero. Speaking of which, Heroes who are Heroes and not gods. Heroes, together, try to defeat gods; not to become one. And, those who do try to become one, should they succeed, should have unique and difficult challenges. Let's bring life, energy, creativity, and innovation into MMORPG creation again. Let's bring in that spirit of creation that goes hand-in-hand with accomplishment. Yet our accomplishment should not be measured, per se, but how many addicts we have or subscribers but by how truly powerful the MMORPG experience is. The MMORPG industry needs to innovate and create new, and different, experiences in the MMORPG world
This awefully subjective and non-specific opinion is not useful to me. Every mmo on the market can lay ownership to meeting most of your loose "looking for's" and most players who think to the contrary can claim that none of the mmo's on the market have any of these attributes.
This awefully subjective and non-specific opinion is not useful to me. Every mmo on the market can lay ownership to meeting most of your loose "looking for's" and most players who think to the contrary can claim that none of the mmo's on the market have any of these attributes.
What are you specifically talking about? It could be ME --though I suspect it is not-- but I re-read your two sentences 3 and a half time and I do not know what you are referring to.
What is "this" ? And how it is it "useful" to you? What specific MMOs "on the market can lay ownership to most of your loose 'looking; for's'"? What are the MMOs, and what are my "loose" looking for's? I do not even know what a "looking for" is.
"most players who think to the contrary." Think to the contary of WHAT? What are you talking about, dude? What "attributes" do "mmo's on th emarket"? What are you talking about?
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a process
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
PROPOSAL
Immersion Gamer
Commercialized Gamer
Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes
Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
Competitive
Hostile
Welcomes Challenge
Avoids Challenge
Enjoys lush and interactive environments
Prefers sterile and polished environments
Character names meaningful
Character names meaningless
JB,
It is cowardly if not contemptible to completely and totally fail to insult someone personally, recognize the insult failed, and then make a comment about running away. You should run-away. (If I were you, I would run-away as well, especially after your discussion of EVE failed. You are 2-0. And I encourage, invite, welcome, and even desire/demand a challenge. I am increasingly convinced of the importance of the above table). EDIT: The instance of age discrimination is contemptible, and I can only imagine the insults if I listed 40 or -gasp!- 70 as my age. Age, one day, hopefully, you will understand is not relevant and you ought to not judge people based on their age.
The more you run-away, or at least fail to address the validity of the points in the above table, confirms for me its accuracy, completeness, and effectiveness at illustrating the tension between commercialized and linear games and why innovation is lacking or missing in MMORPGs.
In a really serious way I should be thanking you as you "back away slowly." I suppose I really am right about this. And I want to further illustrate this tension to include community, content, and classes. Three crucial areas.
Comments
The only name-calling that I have witnessed has come from commercialized gamers, and I think it is because they are defensive and protective of their linear, copy-and-paste model. They do not "honestly" want innovation. We want innovation, so they try to make it about technology, or graphics, or EVE.
We want to redefine the way players experience the MMORPG through innovation, and many people have offered some great ideas on how to achieve that (from item customization tools to interactive environments).
These commercialized gamers, many but not all, are about force. Forced-fed gameplay. Controlled gameplay. We are, at the end of the day, about options, variety, and diversity. In a word, freedom.
It is not about any one or two or three or fifteen specific games. It is about the lack of INNOVATION --are some people deliberately not reading this? I am serious. I am so serious right now. Did I even use the word "sandbox" ever? Ever?-- in the MMORPG industry.
I have no last beloved game. I try to not disclose a lot about myself for various reasons. Where are some of you reading about this last beloved game? I never played it! Hell, if YOU have a lost beloved game, let's talk about it. BUT! I do not have one, although YOU say I do . . . I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Every game I can think in recent memory that I have played has lacked INNOVATIVE features in crucial areas where innovation would really, in my and others theory, help this industry.
I have never used sophisticated or complex terms to define "innovation" at all. This is not about ME, a sandbox, or any "previously beloved game."
It is about the industry and the tension between commercialized/linear gamers and immersion gamers. The industry is creating games for commercialized gamers (selling the same product to the same people) and that is why innovation is lacking or missing in games. I try to never (ever) talk about myself, but this "beloved previous game" stuff is not only speculative (that is being nice) but borderline silly. Innovation. That is the topic. Innovation. Where is it in MMORPGs? It is missing. Why is it missing? The tastes and preferences of commercialized gamers --controlled gameplay, polished environments, e.g.-- dominate the "creative" direction.
Do not read words beyond their plain and clear meaning; we have had people replace "commercialized" with "idiot" and so forth, which is neither accurate nor honest.
In conclusion, innovation is the only means by which we will bring:
to MMORPGs.
Marvels and miracles will occur in this industry via innovation.
If you think you are going to get that list by sitting in front of a screen, it's no wonder you are constantly disappointed.
MMOs are pastimes, not alternative realities. To give you all the stuff on your list designers would have to be Gods, not computer programmers.
You'd have a much better shot at getting all of those, any day, just by taking a stroll round your neighborhood.
MMOs are pastimes, not alternative realities. To give you all the stuff on your list designers would have to be Gods, not computer programmers.
More than willing to engage in a deeper discussion with you (or anyone) on the above points.
The concern that a lot of us have is your zeal over immersion, alternate realities and such. Bhagpuss wrote what he did because he wants to encourage you to step away from the premise of finding something marvelous and miraculous in a computer-generated fantasy. It's simply not healthy to seek out that much fulfillment from anything other than the world around you.
It's just a game. When you lose sight of that, you're headed for a world of hurt. There's your alternate reality.
I don't expect you to latch onto this simply because a couple men in a discussion forum said it to you. It's difficult to tell a highly-opinionated 29-year-old man much of anything. I know, I was one once. I assume that you'll have to dive off your personal cliff and find out that it produces a wonderful sensation of flying - for a while. I'm just happy that somebody said something to you before you got your chance to jump.
And, as always, if you have the capacity and capability, I welcome, invite, and even encourage any and all challenges that distinguish between "commercialized" and "immersion" gamers. We can toss personal insults because some of us might take this personally --why? I am not entirely sure, "unhealthful" (as my friend above said) levels of sensitivity-- but I will neither accept nor take them personally. Personal insults, and pathetic ways of telling me to "fuck off" (LOL), will neither discourage me nor elicit an emotional response. On the other hand, the inability to detect hyperbole will elicit a response when the failure is too obvious for me to ignore.
MMORPGing is at a crossroads; it will either continue the copy-and-paste model to appeal to "commericialized" gamers, or it will not only enlarge the pie but achieve heights yet unimagined through innovation. The best way to not innovate in this industry is to sell the same product to the same (commercialized) people.
Until then, no company or game is getting MY 15.00. You must confess, especially you people on the "commercialized" side with heightened sensitivity, I put my money where my mouth is.
This awefully subjective and non-specific opinion is not useful to me. Every mmo on the market can lay ownership to meeting most of your loose "looking for's" and most players who think to the contrary can claim that none of the mmo's on the market have any of these attributes.
What are you specifically talking about? It could be ME --though I suspect it is not-- but I re-read your two sentences 3 and a half time and I do not know what you are referring to.
What is "this" ? And how it is it "useful" to you? What specific MMOs "on the market can lay ownership to most of your loose 'looking; for's'"? What are the MMOs, and what are my "loose" looking for's? I do not even know what a "looking for" is.
"most players who think to the contrary." Think to the contary of WHAT? What are you talking about, dude? What "attributes" do "mmo's on th emarket"? What are you talking about?
I honestly do not know.
<backs away slowly, exits>
PROPOSAL
Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes
JB,
It is cowardly if not contemptible to completely and totally fail to insult someone personally, recognize the insult failed, and then make a comment about running away. You should run-away. (If I were you, I would run-away as well, especially after your discussion of EVE failed. You are 2-0. And I encourage, invite, welcome, and even desire/demand a challenge. I am increasingly convinced of the importance of the above table). EDIT: The instance of age discrimination is contemptible, and I can only imagine the insults if I listed 40 or -gasp!- 70 as my age. Age, one day, hopefully, you will understand is not relevant and you ought to not judge people based on their age.
The more you run-away, or at least fail to address the validity of the points in the above table, confirms for me its accuracy, completeness, and effectiveness at illustrating the tension between commercialized and linear games and why innovation is lacking or missing in MMORPGs.
In a really serious way I should be thanking you as you "back away slowly." I suppose I really am right about this. And I want to further illustrate this tension to include community, content, and classes. Three crucial areas.