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How to Not Innovate: Sell the Same Old Product to the Same Old People (ongoing tension between imme

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  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300
    Originally posted by Josher



    A good business motto is "Perception is Reality".  It applies to so much, yet is so simple to understand.  For example...if millions of people think the sky is blue, its BLUE no matter what you see out of your own eyes.  If everyone thinks your movie, music or game sucks, maybe it actually does.  And if you can't easily describe the difference between some self-described immersion gamer or commercialized gamer, maybe they don't actually exist and you're trying to create something thats pointless? 

    Thank you! I'm glad someone else is pointing this out.

  • declaredemerdeclaredemer Member Posts: 2,698
    Originally posted by declaredemer



    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer


    Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
     



    Immersion Gamer
    Commercialized Gamer


    "Fascinating"
    "Fun"


    Tradition is respected
    Science is respected


    Development is an art
    Development is a process


    Gameplay is varied
    Gameplay is controlled


    Individual gets credit
    Guild gets credit


    Worlds are large and diverse
    Worlds are small and fixed


    Innovation is revered
    Technology is revered


    Character development and story is the goal
    "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal


    Complex
    Simple



     

     

    I am considering adding a few more elements to this table that illustrates the tension between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers.

    PROPOSAL

    Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer

    Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes

    Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
    Competitive Hostile
    Welcomes Challenge Avoids Challenge
    Enjoys lush and interactive environments Prefers sterile and polished environments
    Character names meaningful Character names meaningless

     




     

    First, it was "old" v. "new."

     

    Now, it is "sandbox" v. "themepark."

     (the only people speaking in broad generalizations are commercialized/linear gamers)

    Really, it is about "innovation" in MMORPGs:  "immersion" v. "commercialized/linear" MMORPG preferences.

    Where, or what elements, as I have already shown why it is not "old" v. "new," lend to the idea it is about a sandbox game or a themepark game?  I concede that the themepark model is really at issue, but it is not exclusive like that.  This is about INNOVATION, not sandbox.  It is about how commercialized gamers do not want innovation ("I honestly do not want innovation . . . I want fun and polish.").  The only people making broad generalizations are those saying it is "old" v. "new."  In fact, through your inspiration, I am weighing various other elements such as "socialization" and "classes" to other features.  More elements will ensure the concepts are more inclusive, and further illustrate the tension between "immersion" and "linear" gaming, and why linear gamers "honestly" do not want innovation; it is more than just "fun" and "polish."  It is the entire MMORPG experience:  fixed, predictable, non-interactive environments, and many (many) more elements.

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300
    Originally posted by declaredemer


    (the only people speak in broad generalizations are commercialized/linear gamers)

    ...says the poster whose entire thread is built on broad generalizations of millions of gamers.

    Too funny.

  • wjrasmussenwjrasmussen Member Posts: 1,493
    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer



    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer


    Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
     



    Immersion Gamer
    Commercialized Gamer


    "Fascinating"
    "Fun"


    Tradition is respected
    Science is respected


    Development is an art
    Development is a process


    Gameplay is varied
    Gameplay is controlled


    Individual gets credit
    Guild gets credit


    Worlds are large and diverse
    Worlds are small and fixed


    Innovation is revered
    Technology is revered


    Character development and story is the goal
    "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal


    Complex
    Simple



     

     

    I am considering adding a few more elements to this table that illustrates the tension between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers.

    PROPOSAL

    Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer

    Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes

    Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
    Competitive Hostile
    Welcomes Challenge Avoids Challenge
    Enjoys lush and interactive environments Prefers sterile and polished environments
    Character names meaningful Character names meaningless

     



     

    First, it was "old" v. "new."

     

    Now, it is "sandbox" v. "themepark."

     (the only people speak in broad generalizations are commercialized/linear gamers)

    Really, it is about "innovation" in MMORPGs:  "immersion" v. "commercialized/linear" MMORPG preferences.

    Where, or what elements, as I have already shown why it is not "old" v. "new," lend to the idea it is about a sandbox game or a themepark game?  I concede that the themepark model is really at issue, but it is not exclusive like that.  This is about INNOVATION, not sandbox.  It is about how commercialized gamers do not want innovation ("I honestly do not want innovation . . . I want fun and polish.").  The only people making broad generalizations are those saying it is "old" v. "new."  In fact, through your inspiration, I am weighing various other elements such as "socialization" and "classes" to other features.

    Why don't you just come out an say what you really feel.

     

    Immersive gamer = intelligent person.

    Commercial gamer = idiot.

    Isn't that the real theme you have going on here?

  • declaredemerdeclaredemer Member Posts: 2,698
    Originally posted by wjrasmussen

    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer



    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer


    Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
     



    Immersion Gamer
    Commercialized Gamer


    "Fascinating"
    "Fun"


    Tradition is respected
    Science is respected


    Development is an art
    Development is a process


    Gameplay is varied
    Gameplay is controlled


    Individual gets credit
    Guild gets credit


    Worlds are large and diverse
    Worlds are small and fixed


    Innovation is revered
    Technology is revered


    Character development and story is the goal
    "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal


    Complex
    Simple



     

     

    I am considering adding a few more elements to this table that illustrates the tension between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers.

    PROPOSAL

    Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer

    Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes

    Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
    Competitive Hostile
    Welcomes Challenge Avoids Challenge
    Enjoys lush and interactive environments Prefers sterile and polished environments
    Character names meaningful Character names meaningless

     





    Really, it is about "innovation" in MMORPGs:  "immersion" v. "commercialized/linear" MMORPG preferences.

    Why don't you just come out an say what you really feel.

     

    Immersive gamer = intelligent person.

    Commercial gamer = idiot.

    Isn't that the real theme you have going on here?

     

    It is not the idea anymore than "immersion" means old game.  Or that "commercialized" means new game.

     

    Commercialized/linear games might be more intelligent than immersion gamers; but they do not necessarily want to "think" in their game; they avoid challenges; and they like sterile and "polished" environments over interactive ones.  EDIT:  the only area where I could say we would take real-life characteristics and apply them is "conservative" v. "progressive."  Immersion gamers are more progressive but respect tradition.  Commercialized gamers are more conservative and respect science.  Commercialized gamers do not even consider the traditional or past MMORPGs; they want a "polished" environment to have "fun" in a linear way where gameplay is "controlled" and options are highly limited and even pre-selected.  Immersion gamers want interaction with the environment, varied gameplay, and diverse options with wide latitude from customization to content to even abilities.

     

    It is about preferences.  Intelligence, old, new, and so forth have nothing to do with it.  Most people today are "commercialized" gamers, and very intelligent people are "commercialized" gamers.  Intelligence, similar to "old" and "new," is not an element.

  • MrbloodworthMrbloodworth Member Posts: 5,615
    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer



    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer


    Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
     



    Immersion Gamer
    Commercialized Gamer


    "Fascinating"
    "Fun"


    Tradition is respected
    Science is respected


    Development is an art
    Development is a process


    Gameplay is varied
    Gameplay is controlled


    Individual gets credit
    Guild gets credit


    Worlds are large and diverse
    Worlds are small and fixed


    Innovation is revered
    Technology is revered


    Character development and story is the goal
    "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal


    Complex
    Simple



     

     

    I am considering adding a few more elements to this table that illustrates the tension between "immersion" and "commercialized" gamers.

    PROPOSAL

    Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer

    Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes

    Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
    Competitive Hostile
    Welcomes Challenge Avoids Challenge
    Enjoys lush and interactive environments Prefers sterile and polished environments
    Character names meaningful Character names meaningless

     




     

    First, it was "old" v. "new."

     

    Now, it is "sandbox" v. "themepark."

     (the only people speak in broad generalizations are commercialized/linear gamers)

    Really, it is about "innovation" in MMORPGs:  "immersion" v. "commercialized/linear" MMORPG preferences.

    Where, or what elements, as I have already shown why it is not "old" v. "new," lend to the idea it is about a sandbox game or a themepark game?  I concede that the themepark model is really at issue, but it is not exclusive like that.  This is about INNOVATION, not sandbox.  It is about how commercialized gamers do not want innovation ("I honestly do not want innovation . . . I want fun and polish.").  The only people making broad generalizations are those saying it is "old" v. "new."  In fact, through your inspiration, I am weighing various other elements such as "socialization" and "classes" to other features.

     



    I don't think you have read your own thread, or anyone elses responses. At all. Your first post, as you have been shown many times while you still ignore, invalidates what you are trying to say here.

     

    You have turned this entire thing into an "US" VS. "Them" by branding anyone who does not agree, or has attempted to tell you , your base line premise is subjective, and flawed as a "Commercialized gamer", that, in every instance you use this term you made up, and will not define except with more pie in the sky ramblings, is derogatory and used as an insult.



    You sir, at this point, are simply a very wordy troll.

    You skip, cherry pick postings, warp words, and attempt to incite, and will not confront any form of real logic, to the point of others frustration.

     You wont even name the game or games that are the baseline of your premises so others have a point of reference.

    There is no tension, other than that that is in your head, sorry. This "war" of yours, is completey in your head, with figurines and war men, you made up.

    In fact, your title is wrong. It imply you are going to describe with details how not to innovate, and all that's in this thread is someone waxing poetic about games gone by with zero substance.

     

     

     

    ----------
    "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me

    "No, your wrong.." - Random user #123

    "Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.

    How are you?" -Me

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by wjrasmussen

    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer



    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer


    Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
     



    Immersion Gamer
    Commercialized Gamer


    "Fascinating"
    "Fun"


    Tradition is respected
    Science is respected


    Development is an art
    Development is a process


    Gameplay is varied
    Gameplay is controlled


    Individual gets credit
    Guild gets credit


    Worlds are large and diverse
    Worlds are small and fixed


    Innovation is revered
    Technology is revered


    Character development and story is the goal
    "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal


    Complex
    Simple



     

     

    Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer

    Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes

    Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
    Competitive Hostile
    Welcomes Challenge Avoids Challenge
    Enjoys lush and interactive environments Prefers sterile and polished environments
    Character names meaningful Character names meaningless

     



     

     

    So what am I?

     

    I like facinating & fun games since in order to have fun I have to be facinated by it. 

    I like games that are simple and intuitive to grasp at first, yet have depth.  I HATE games that pile on everything at once, which is a sign a bad design.

    I want my character stats to mean something, since this is an RPG after all, a character, not ME.

    I enjoy helping the guild, but I need personal rewards along with it.

    The game has to have high production values, which directly relates to my immersion.

    I'm competitive and I enjoy a challenge.  But I won't purposely challenge myself for little to no reward.

    I only enjoy lush, polished environments.  I'd like them to be interactive ONLY if other players can't cause me siginifcant frustration.

    Character names are just names, a way for me contact that player. 

    I apparently am a commercialized, immersion gamer=)  Bascially I only enjoy polished, high quality, well tested MMOs, that I become immersed in, which limits my choices.  I do not enjoy developers using me as a test dummy=)  I've been through that ringer before and won't do it again.  My time is too valuable now.

     

  • declaredemerdeclaredemer Member Posts: 2,698
    Originally posted by Josher

    Originally posted by wjrasmussen

    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer



    Originally posted by declaredemer

    Originally posted by declaredemer


    Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
     



    Immersion Gamer
    Commercialized Gamer


    "Fascinating"
    "Fun"


    Tradition is respected
    Science is respected


    Development is an art
    Development is a process


    Gameplay is varied
    Gameplay is controlled


    Individual gets credit
    Guild gets credit


    Worlds are large and diverse
    Worlds are small and fixed


    Innovation is revered
    Technology is revered


    Character development and story is the goal
    "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal


    Complex
    Simple



     

     

    Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer

    Real-life values matter more than player-character attributes

    Real-life values matter less than player-character attributes
    Competitive Hostile
    Welcomes Challenge Avoids Challenge
    Enjoys lush and interactive environments Prefers sterile and polished environments
    Character names meaningful Character names meaningless

     



     

     

    So what am I?

     

    I like facinating & fun games since in order to have fun I have to be facinated by it. 

    I like games that are simple and intuitive to grasp at first, yet have depth.  I HATE games that pile on everything at once, which is a sign a bad design.

    I want my character stats to mean something, since this is an RPG after all, a character, not ME.

    I enjoy helping the guild, but I need personal rewards along with it.

    The game has to have high production values, which directly relates to my immersion.

    I'm competitive and I enjoy a challenge.  But I won't purposely challenge myself for little to no reward.

    I only enjoy lush, polished environments.  I'd like them to be interactive ONLY if other players can't cause me siginifcant frustration.

    Character names are just names, a way for me contact that player. 

    I apparently am a commercialized, immersion gamer=)  Bascially I only enjoy polished, high quality, well tested MMOs, that I become immersed in, which limits my choices.  I do not enjoy developers using me as a test dummy=)  I've been through that ringer before and won't do it again.  My time is too valuable now.

     

    Fascination and Fun

    Fascination and fun is a distinction with profound difference.  The limitation is the word "fun."  Immersion gamers are more or less interested in "enjoyment" that comes from "fascination" with the MMORPG world, features, and so forth.

     

    Simple v. Intuitive

    "At first" is the key language you use.  I think games should be, as you mentioned, intuitive; which does not mean linear, or hand-holding, fixed, and inflexible.  Indeed, intuition but not simple.  Let players discover, explore, and build.  Everything is so "simple" that innovation is not possible when the goal is simple, fixed, pre-determined "fun."

     

    Character Stats

    You said it.  Character stats should "mean something."  Character stats are even more meaningful when you, as the player, have control over them; you can customize them, create, and develop a character.  It is not linear, fixed, or inflexible.

     

    Guild v. Personal Rewards

    You said you like to help people but need "personal rewards."  In a commercialized game, the guild receives virtual all of the credit and the player's attributes are more important than the player's real-life values.  In other words, immersion gamers, as you said, like to "help people" also like the option to obtain individual rewards.  



    Competitive and Enjoy a Challenge

    Immersion gamers welcome, even appreciate, challenges.  Competition comes from one's ability to surmount challenges and acquire individual credit and rewards.  This does not, at all, diminish the importance of group-cooperative content.  In fact, immersion gamers appreciate group-cooperative content, especially where the "individual" contribution matters.  It is not a race, per se, to the finish line (max level);  immersion gamers see, and desire, competition in deeper, greater, and more interesting ways.

     

    Environments

    It is about the ability to use and interact with your environment.  A commercialized game has little to no interaction with the environment at all.  It really decreases immersion.  The use of innovation to allow players to interact with, impact, and use their environments more is deeply desired among the immersion community.  Everyone likes "polish" but not at the expense of the ability to enjoy a lush and interactive environment.  Polish and sterile environments greatly reduce immersion; it is not about "graphics" or "technology" but the use and greater interaction with the environment from nature to civilization to magic to just about anything our "creative energies" can conceive of.

     

    Character Names:  Just Names

    I considered removing this element, but I kept it.  Character names should fit the theme of the character sought to develop.  Character names are more than a "just a mere name" and should contain a past, history, story, and, indeed, a future.

     

    CONCLUSION

    No one will necessarily fit perfectly into either "immersion" or "commercialized" because everyone's preferences are a bit different.  I bet there are many "linear" gamers out there who want a lot of "immersion" features.  I also know there are a lot of "immersion" gamers out there who enjoy some "linear" features.

    EDIT: I would say you are an "immersion" MMORPG gamer.

    (an aside:  which reminds me, we need to explore the element of "roleplay")

    Immersion:  open to roleplaying

    Commercialized:  closed to roleplaying

  • Tim_BraidTim_Braid Member UncommonPosts: 36

    All games teach. What do commercial MMORPG's (ie. World of Warcraft) teach us?



    A Commercial MMORPG says:



    * You are a schlub who has nothing better to do than sit around performing repetitive, mindless actions.

    * Skill and shrewdness do not count for much; what matters is how much time you sink in.

    * You don’t need to do anything exceptional, because to feel good you just need to run the treadmill like everyone else.


     

                                                                                                                                                                    Jonathan Blow

    You mean to tell me most MMORPG gamers prefer commercial MMO's to innovative MMORPG like Star Wars Galaxies(Pre-CU)? If this is the case, the MMORPG industry is really headed in a sad direction. I mean after playing WoW for three hours straight doesn't your mind get numb?

    Wouldn't you prefer MMO games that require thought and challenge? MMO games design to enrich and expand your mind rather than numb it to the point of exticntion? Why can't MMORPG be used as a vehicle for self enrichment rather than promoting selfishness through individual rewards?

    Timmy

     

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger Member Posts: 2,596

    Well, I am with the O.P. on most of his points.

    These new MMO's lately are like "arcade" versions of MMO's.  They have been simplified for casual/solo gameplay.  Social and non-combat player classes/features have been pushed by the wayside in order to cater to the A.D.D. afflicted masses out there. The game worlds are not evolving toward a more real environment, but a less real or sanitized version.  It's hard not to feel like you are inside a cartoon or a movie set where if you look too closely you will notice that the background is fake, and most of the items on the movie set are propped up cardboard stand-ups. No effort is being made to make the actual game world richer.  They just make it look a little better.

    I also get a kick out of the mantra I hear repeated on these forums from more and more people lately.  It's the idea that a more deep MMO with much more interesting crafting and resource gathering systems, and social or non-combat features somehow feels like a "second job".  I think this is a core difference between the theme park lovers, and those of us who lean toward sandbox play. Yes, I realize there are all levels of player in between the two types, but for discussion's sake, lets just address the two extremes as we have been in this thread already.

    Please note, I am not saying one style of gaming or the other is better.  That is a matter of opinion.  I'm just pointing out some differences. I will take the point of view of a sandboxer, because even though I can be quite moderate on the issue, I am a sandboxer at the end of the day.

    The mindset between theme-park and sandbox players is fundamentally different, and there is no way around this.  A sandbox player has an attitude similar to "the journey IS the destination." They are stopping to smell the roses along the way.  They are exploring, role playing, crafting, throwing in-game social events, and just generally forging their own path through the game with as little guidance from the game world as possible. They want to discover quests and adventures through exploration of the game world, not have them force-fed by robo-quest giving NPC's who hold your hand the entire way.

    They are not racing as fast and efficiently as they can through quests so that they can hit level cap and perhaps get involved with whatever end game is available. They are (generally) not visiting some game wiki site looking for all the answers to their questions. They prefer to discover the answers in a more pure way, even if it takes more thought and time. In fact, a sandbox player generally does not WANT an end-game.  They want a game that is flexible enough to allow the players to forge new experiences for years and years, and level cap is just something that eventually happens to them.  It's not the complete goal.

    Sandboxers are generally interested in non-combat player classes such as crafting, entertaining, scientists, etc.  They may or may not play combat much at all, or they will tend to see PvP and PvE combat as an equal part of the game play, not a predominant mode that they are more or less forced into due to lack of any other real game mechanics. A sandbox player, if given a choice will have a combat toon and a non-combat toon. They may log into their non-combat toon for days or weeks at a time, because the game offers them interesting game play outside of wielding a weapon.

    I'm not going to run down the list of attributes for what I think the average theme park player wants, because they are fairly obvious.  The main thing I want to point out here is that there are huge differences between the two types of players, and trying to hash them out on these boards is not going to help.  The genre needs good games that cater to both types of players.  I highly doubt, at least in the next 5 years, that anyone will build a single game that will make both camps happy.

    I also fully acknowledge that I am in the minority of the market, but I will add this caveat.  Most of the millions of people who are playing WoW now have never had a chance to experience a non-themepark game, so it is unfair for anyone to sit on these boards and claim that my 'sandbox' style of play is dying.  Until a truly good sandbox game comes along and more people have a chance to try it for themselves, none of us will know the answer to that.  I'm sure the majority will still lean towards the casual simplicity of the theme park games, but I also have no doubt that there are potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions of WoW players who would enjoy sandbox games just as I have.  Sandbox players are not some rare anomaly.  It's a matter of preference, and there will always be room in this genre for both styles.

    I have never played any other type of role playing game, and I came to this genre straight to Star Wars Galaxies from years and years of first person shooter games.  Don't lump me in with old school pen and paper people who yearn for that old feeling in a game. I am a casual player who is not looking for a second life, but who also is not looking for a simplified race to level cap just because I have limited gaming time.  All I want is the freedom to forge my own path whether I want to be a hero, a simple shop owner, or an explorer/hunter, and I want my game to give me the tools and freedom to do it. 

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • admriker4admriker4 Member Posts: 1,070

    Just one simple thing would make MMO's more fun to me....

    Non-combat classes

    Im sick of every MMO focusing 100% on combat. And no I dont want to play Second Life. But give us options besides killing things. It wouldnt hurt the theme park combat gamers to let me craft  dress boots or harvest corn

  • emikochanemikochan Member UncommonPosts: 290
    Originally posted by admriker4


    Just one simple thing would make MMO's more fun to me....
    Non-combat classes
    Im sick of every MMO focusing 100% on combat. And no I dont want to play Second Life. But give us options besides killing things. It wouldnt hurt the theme park combat gamers to let me craft  dress boots or harvest corn

    EVE does this (from the games I have played AO does this to a degree too) I'm sure there are more.

     

    Your message is interesting, since if there is combat and crafting, where do you draw the line ? I'll throw the boat out here and say "most" of them contain both, why would you craft boots if people didn't use them to fight things ? If they don't use them to fight things, then Second Life IS for you...

     

    Honestly I prefer crafting and diplomacy to fighting (and when I fight I prefer the support role, which I guess includes crafting on a psychological level), as such i'm looking forward to Fallen Earth, where you can level to cap with pure crafting and scavenging.. That aside, there is such a large range of games out there, the premise you are looking for has very likely been done.

     

    I think you'll find that VERY FEW MMO's focus 100% on combat, even  pure pvp ones like planetside have a small % of support play (fuel collection and base repair, both aspects I enjoyed greatly) and in combat situations I would heal and repair other players.

    On the other hand if the things you enjoy happen to force you into combat... that is not a favourable position. Though in most games worlds the people/things you are trying to undermine (be it orcs or corporations) will be more likely to kill you than talk to you. Look at it from your character's and the lore's perspective. (I personally would like more faction based questing where I could turn around and kill the quest giver for the people he sent me to kill - again a feature of fallen earth, yes i'm really looking forward to this :3)

    --

    On the topic of the  OP... well... I'd say something but it's all been covered, long story short: Perception is Reality.

    Give us more information about what you are looking for and we can help you find it...

    The table you made is far from mutually exclusive (case in point I play and enjoy Second life , WoW, and EVE in different ways)

     

     

    OP, come back when you have an argument, burden of proof is on you before it is on the people disputing your points.

     

    edit: after reading mindtrigger's post again properly, I do agree with a lot said there, if only from a personal preference pov (i started from fps > rts > mmo (then discovered pnp awesomeness)) but - is it really so much to enjoy both the journey and the destination? Good games are good - if you enjoy all the gameplay in a game then there's no difference between these percieved "sides"

     

    People aren't that simple.

     

     

     

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300
    Originally posted by admriker4


    Just one simple thing would make MMO's more fun to me....
    Non-combat classes
    Im sick of every MMO focusing 100% on combat. And no I dont want to play Second Life. But give us options besides killing things. It wouldnt hurt the theme park combat gamers to let me craft  dress boots or harvest corn

    Honestly? That's the whole reason I'm goofing around with Free Realms right now. Just the fact that there are a bunch of non-combat classes (Pet Trainer, Card Duelist, Chef, Miner, Kart Racer, Demolition Derby Driver, Blacksmith, Postman, etc.) that I can play that don't require me to fight, but which still offer advancement and gear of their own has been a breath of fresh air. Even the default class, the Adventurer, offers advancement just for wandering around and exploring the world and finding all sorts of collections. Sure, it's aimed at kids, but that doesn't bother me. I can still enjoy it for what it is.

    I know Sony gets a lot of hate around here, but they've really got something special going with that game, IMO.

  • declaredemerdeclaredemer Member Posts: 2,698
    Originally posted by Tim_Braid

    * Skill and shrewdness do not count for much; what matters is how much time you sink in.


     

    You raise a crucial point that highlights the challenges with "controlled gameplay " (commercial gamers) and "varied gameplay" (immersion gamers).

     

    Immersion gamers prefer diverse, decentralized, and varied gameplay experiences.  Immersion games are also more flexible and fail gracefully.

     

    Commercialized gamers prefer polished, centralized, and singular gameplay experiences.  Commercialized gamers are also less flexible and fail ungracefully. 

     

     

    GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE (this concept will, and should, be developed further)

    Immersion Commercialized
    Decentralized Centralized
    Flexible Inflexible
    Fails Gracefully Fails Ungracefully
    Varied Redundant*
    Diverse Parallel**

     

    *Redundancy is particularly crucial because, if you were to start a new character, even a new class, even a new race, in a commercialized game, you will have the same or very similar level 1 to terminal level experience. 

     

    **Parallel means, regardless of race, you essentially have a linear, fixed, inflexible "level-up" experience to ultimately "gear-up."  Although you might be in a different area and playing a different race/class, the level-up experience is substantially the same.

  • emikochanemikochan Member UncommonPosts: 290

    Games with that many classes, shouldn't be using classes at all imo, either focus, or let the player chose exactly what they want...

  • protorocprotoroc Member Posts: 1,042
    Originally posted by declaredemer






    Immersion
    Commercialized


    Decentralized
    Centralized


    Flexible
    Inflexible


    Fails Gracefully
    Fails Ungracefully


    Varied
    Redundant*


    Diverse
    Parallel**



     


    Now your just being insulting.  Trying creating a table without bias and maybe others might actually give your ramblings a few thoughts.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,466

    I am not sure what trying to divide gamers into these two types really achieves if anything at all. But I do like some of the OP’s ideas and others for forging a different kind of game.

    Where I think the immersion / commercialised idea falls down is as follows. Many ‘commercialised’ gamers will not know any other form of game exists other than the type they play, that does not mean they are of that type, just that they can only play what’s put in front of them.

    Although I think the division has been rather unproductive, the discussion has helped show the way many of us would like MMO’s to develop.

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300
    Originally posted by Venomzer0


    Games with that many classes, shouldn't be using classes at all imo, either focus, or let the player chose exactly what they want...

    If you're referring to Free Realms, it's an open system. 10 out of the 15 classes are available from the start, and the other 5 are unlocked for $5 a month. A player can be any class at any time they choose, since switching between jobs is as simple as clicking an icon. This allows the player to experience the game in whatever way they want to that day.

    It's generally aimed at kids, and the world and content reflect that, but being able to go from being a Ninja to a Chef to whatever based on what you feel like doing in that moment is nice. I would love for there to be a version of this game aimed at adults.

    I don't know how long it will keep my interest, but so far Free Realms is a nice change of pace from what I've played before.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Scot


    I am not sure what trying to divide gamers into these two types really achieves if anything at all. But I do like some of the OP’s ideas and others for forging a different kind of game.
    Where I think the immersion / commercialised idea falls down is as follows. Many ‘commercialised’ gamers will not know any other form of game exists other than the type they play, that does not mean they are of that type, just that they can only play what’s put in front of them.
    Although I think the division has been rather unproductive, the discussion has helped show the way many of us would like MMO’s to develop.

     

    My biggest problem with this division is that it is purely subjective.  Going down his list, I characterized myself as an immersion gamer for the exact same reasons why I play WoW for years.  Since the OP wants to put WoW in the other category I do not see his categorization making much sense.

  • MrbloodworthMrbloodworth Member Posts: 5,615
    Originally posted by Scot


    But I do like some of the OP’s ideas and others for forging a different kind of game.


     

    What ideas? He has posted nothing of substance....

    ----------
    "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me

    "No, your wrong.." - Random user #123

    "Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.

    How are you?" -Me

  • JosherJosher Member Posts: 2,818
    Originally posted by Torik

    Originally posted by Scot


    I am not sure what trying to divide gamers into these two types really achieves if anything at all. But I do like some of the OP’s ideas and others for forging a different kind of game.
    Where I think the immersion / commercialised idea falls down is as follows. Many ‘commercialised’ gamers will not know any other form of game exists other than the type they play, that does not mean they are of that type, just that they can only play what’s put in front of them.
    Although I think the division has been rather unproductive, the discussion has helped show the way many of us would like MMO’s to develop.

     

    My biggest problem with this division is that it is purely subjective.  Going down his list, I characterized myself as an immersion gamer for the exact same reasons why I play WoW for years.  Since the OP wants to put WoW in the other category I do not see his categorization making much sense.



     

    DItto.  I played WOW for the immersion it gave me, and all the production values and content I require to have fun.  WOW was easily the most immersive MMO I've played and I started back with UO.  But since I find very little use for anything non-combat related, I must not be able to immerse myself in MMOs=)  I'm just a mindless robot being force fed content through an IV.  A blind sheep who can't think for himself and only plays whats popular and simple.  I'm not enlightened enough to appreciate the monotony of decorating a virtual house, attending a virtual wedding or baking a virtual cake, ect.  I'm comercialized, a sell out, a NON-gamer, a casual nitwit, dumbing down the genre from its high standards of extensive downtime, game breaking bugs, lousy graphics, exploit riden gameplay and excessive punishments designed to IMMERSE you and enhance your inner being.

  • declaredemerdeclaredemer Member Posts: 2,698
    Originally posted by Venomzer0


    Games with that many classes, shouldn't be using classes at all imo, either focus, or let the player chose exactly what they want...

     

    The selection of classes can undermine immersion because the gamer has no opportunity for participating in and contributing to a deeper creative process.  Specialization builds-on pre-determined and fixed abilities.

    Pre-selected classes and specialization is as inflexible as it gets;  your options are limited from classes 1 through 8; and your specializations are limited from 1 to 3.  It is killing creativity and innovation in this industry.

    We need to allow the gamer to select, choose, create, and build a class with greater choices, flexibility, options, and abilities.  Many commercialized/linear gamers would be overwhelmed and even hostile to this level of freedom.

  • neodavieneodavie Member Posts: 278
    Originally posted by declaredemer 
    The selection of classes can undermine immersion because the gamer has no opportunity for participating in and contributing to a deeper creative process.  Specialization builds-on pre-determined and fixed abilities.
    Pre-selected classes and specialization is as inflexible as it gets;  your options are limited from classes 1 through 8; and your specializations are limited from 1 to 3.  It is killing creativity and innovation in this industry.
    We need to allow the gamer to select, choose, create, and build a class with greater choices, flexibility, options, and abilities.  Many commercialized/linear gamers would be overwhelmed and even hostile to this level of freedom.

     

    And yet EVE does exactly that. Honestly do you think out your responses before you write them?

    I told myself I wasn't going to respond to the horse shit you're constantly spewing, yet here I am again trying to show you how fucking stupid you are.

    Originally posted by GTwander:

    How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?

    I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by declaredemer


    The selection of classes can undermine immersion because the gamer has no opportunity for participating in and contributing to a deeper creative process.  Specialization builds-on pre-determined and fixed abilities.
    Pre-selected classes and specialization is as inflexible as it gets;  your options are limited from classes 1 through 8; and your specializations are limited from 1 to 3.  It is killing creativity and innovation in this industry.
    We need to allow the gamer to select, choose, create, and build a class with greater choices, flexibility, options, and abilities.  Commercialized/linear gamers would be overwhelmed and even hostile to this level of freedom.

     

    There is of course a third option, the one Warhammer is using (the roleplaying game, mind you. The MMO uses Wows system).

    In Warhammer everyone starts out as a loser proffesion, in the class of rat catcher, tomb robber, burglar, fisherman and so on. When you have gotten enough XP you advance to another one, a fisherman could be a pirate or a marine (and a few more). Some proffesions are elite ones that are extra cool like Witchhunter, Judical champion, Templar and free lance.

    So basicly you can add more and more proffesions to your character as the game continue, it works pretty good in the pen and paper game.

    I do agree that the usual fixed classes in a MMO are kinda boring, particular when you have 5-10 to chose from and the AA skill trees just aint enough to make a character feel any different from most others of her class.

    I would prefer a system where you could either create your own class or at least be able to tweak the class (like every class gets 4 non class skills to be different, like a mage spends a point to be able to use a sword, or a thief to be able to wear chain mail instead of just leather, or a fighter wants to be able to pick locks. It is easy to add, not that hard to balance and would make your character to get that unique feel).

  • declaredemerdeclaredemer Member Posts: 2,698
    Originally posted by Loke666



    I do agree that the usual fixed classes in a MMO are kinda boring, particular when you have 5-10 to chose from and the AA skill trees just aint enough to make a character feel any different from most others of her class.
    I would prefer a system where you could either create your own class or at least be able to tweak the class (like every class gets 4 non class skills to be different, like a mage spends a point to be able to use a sword, or a thief to be able to wear chain mail instead of just leather, or a fighter wants to be able to pick locks. It is easy to add, not that hard to balance and would make your character to get that unique feel).

     

    It is that linear "fixed classes in a MMO" standard that must be resisted.  In fact, I am not even aware of a single MMORPG in production that does not use this standard.  People think they have "options" when they have more classes. 

     

     

    I like your idea about a "system where you could either create your own class" or customize every class.  I agree that players should have more choices when selecting varied class skills; it also prevents certain classes from monopolizing abilities.

     

    I agree, we need more of that "unique fee."  A linear path, playing a linear class with linear abilities and/or specializations is why creativity is so lost and blind in this industry.  Innovation is confused with technology as well, which I believe this discussion has shown.  

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