Well this is weird, people that pay to play games that kill stuff to loot things, or raid to loot things always have a chance gain something from it, If there was nothing to possibly gain from looting, mobs, npc's and such what would the fun be, well you do pay for a monthly fee to do so on the major mmo's that are not f2p, you are taking a gamble on equiping your toon with elite gear, mats, or something else in the game, in the end...all mmo's are gambling, you are paying to kill the stuff that requires killing in hopes of the chances are in your favor that something drops to help your toon in the end of it all, bottom line, (of course along with this goes the entertainment you get from trying this game of chance, will this end boss mob drop what I need as this is the millionth time killing it....wahhh wahhh wahhh wahhhh, try again, pay next month and take a spin again)
You do mention an important difference I think. When you pay a subscription fee for a month of entertainment, that is what you are getting. Loot drops that you get by completing ingame content are part of the fun.
Now let's compare this to item shops to start with. Are you paying for a month's worth of entertainment? Nope, you're paying for a virtual item. If you check the fine print, you'll also find that you just paid real money for a virtual item that you don't even own. Entertainment value? I guess, if entering your visa number is entertaining. It's not for me, so I'd say no, I'm not paying for entertainment.
Take this further with paying real cash for a chance at a virtual item. Any entertainment value? Again, only if I enjoy entering my visa number and even if I do I may not get was I was hoping for. Try again next month? No, I can try again right away, and again, and again, and again. Until I hit the $250/day limit that SOE has put on their online store.
If you step back and take another look at this, I think you might see that the difference you highlighted might be bigger than you think.
This is exactly what I am angry about, VIRTUAL ITEMS, If we keep shooting shit out of our blowholes the taxman will eventually claim that virtual items are something we own PERSONALLY, now we should all keep this under the rug before a higher athority steps in and claims suddenly well you can gain items in the way of gambling in ALL MMORPGS and suddenly owning virtual things that drop or are gained at a chance with the exchange of a monthly fee is considered gambling FOR ALL MMORPGS, think we should all simmer down about this or we are gonna open a can of worms that should be left closed, you can not physically own virtual things, lets leave it at that please!!!
The can was opened when organizations all over North America and Europe received inumerable complaints about unfair business practices in MMOs. Specifically unconscionable EULAs, alleged bait and switch tactics, advertising features for release that never make the game, selling virtual property (but not really) and offering online games of chance to minors, and to adults without proper checks and balances.
There has been new legslation already passed in the U.S. and the U.K. with more to come. I'm reading some discussion papers from the committees involved. The worms are loose brother. Set free by unrestrained corporate greed and a wreckless disregard for consumer rights. If companies don't regulate themselves (and some haven't), and enough customers get burned (and many have), believe me, someone else will step in to do the regulating for them. At this point, it's not if; it's when and how.
P.S. If asked if I'd rather pay 5 cents tax on a virtual item I want, or spend $250 dollars gambling for it, I wouldn't even have to think about my decision. I'll pay the 5 cents and probably get a much better MMO industry as a result. Fewer scams and some kick-ass refunds if they happen would be a very good thing. Hey maybe even stiff, punitive fines on offending service providers to help keep the cost of regulation to consumers low. Now there's an idea.
P.P.S. I remember when I would spend virtual currency for virtual items. Yup those were the days. I think it's the service providers that blurred the lines when they started asking for real cash in exchange for virtual items. I bet some thought it was just like coding money. Now we have a mess to clean up. Nice going.
The internet and MMO's with the EULAs are like the wild west of North America. It's basically all new where there aren't alot of laws governing any of it, but when a company like SOE tries to bend the laws in thier favor, some people will take notice and question the business practices of said companies who try to bypass normal laws by using the internet. The most important thing I think is for people to not sit by and not take it and actually speak up about it, even if it's just some forum such as this.
Its no illegal if they follow Nevada Gaming laws. basically, they need to admit its gambling then they have to follow a specific odds of winning that the state inposes and pay taxes. TO get around that, the TCG is not available in that state.
Thiers no odds of winning I thought? Ive read that people are mad they never get anything, its a random generator that gives out the goodies. The odds are how many items given out to how many trys I guess. Might as well be 0:0 odds of winning.
The odds are 3 Loot Cards per Booster box on average. These odds are varied with rare game cards and foils also in the mix.
I've read numerous posts where people try to calculate the odds. They never came up with anything consistent. I don't believe official odds of winning are published, and if they were I don't believe that they are independently verified. These issues fail some legislative tests about things like games of chance and/or product promotionals in some areas.
In contrast, once again the WoW TCG--having printed cards that players truly own--can talk about odds and have them independently verified. Much more user friendly imo. Again, the WoW TCG and the SOE TCG are like night and day in some respects it would seem.
I'm not really a WoW fan tbh, I played it for a very short time and didn't like the graphics. Even so, I can see how the way they run their show differs dramatically from what seems to go on in SWG. I can also see that they have had much more success, and I think I can understand why.
Their product is highly polished and functional (partly because they take the time to do it right), they seem to try to stay on the right side of potential controversy, and they seem to place customer satisfaction as a high priority. I find it ironic that so many companies who appear to copy Blizzard seem to miss this basic formula for success.
Its no illegal if they follow Nevada Gaming laws. basically, they need to admit its gambling then they have to follow a specific odds of winning that the state inposes and pay taxes. TO get around that, the TCG is not available in that state.
Thiers no odds of winning I thought? Ive read that people are mad they never get anything, its a random generator that gives out the goodies. The odds are how many items given out to how many trys I guess. Might as well be 0:0 odds of winning.
The odds are 3 Loot Cards per Booster box on average. These odds are varied with rare game cards and foils also in the mix.
I've read numerous posts where people try to calculate the odds. They never came up with anything consistent. I don't believe official odds of winning are published, and if they were I don't believe that they are independently verified. These issues fail some legislative tests about things like games of chance and/or product promotionals in some areas.
In contrast, once again the WoW TCG--having printed cards that players truly own--can talk about odds and have them independently verified. Much more user friendly imo. Again, the WoW TCG and the SOE TCG are like night and day in some respects it would seem.
I'm not really a WoW fan tbh, I played it for a very short time and didn't like the graphics. Even so, I can see how the way they run their show differs dramatically from what seems to go on in SWG. I can also see that they have had much more success, and I think I can understand why.
Their product is highly polished and functional (partly because they take the time to do it right), they seem to try to stay on the right side of potential controversy, and they seem to place customer satisfaction as a high priority. I find it ironic that so many companies who appear to copy Blizzard seem to miss this basic formula for success.
My sister runs a company where they create new card games as an alternative to blackjack/poker etc and then sells them to Casinos across the country. I know that they have to consult some guy/company called the "Wizard of Odds" based in Las Vegas and she makes frequent trips out there to have new games they create have the odds verified.
If you look at the PDFs they have odds listed for every game they have created. To me the question is this: Is SOE selling the actual TCG as a game or as a chance to get LOOT like all of the advertisements are using to draw people in? Every single advertisement emphasises LOOT as the actual draw over the actual gameplay.
The average mmo player is 26 years old or above (there have been surveys done and at various points I have posted at least 3 different ones...I am too lazy to do it again). IMO...this is a mature enough age that people should realize how the TCG works.....no matter how "devious" it is presented. I mean...it never fooled me...and I really don't think it's fooling too many others. People know what they are in for when they continually pump money into the TCG and pay monthly fees. It's not all that [email protected] un-business-like for that matter.
The average mmo player is 26 years old or above (there have been surveys done and at various points I have posted at least 3 different ones...I am too lazy to do it again). IMO...this is a mature enough age that people should realize how the TCG works.....no matter how "devious" it is presented. I mean...it never fooled me...and I really don't think it's fooling too many others. People know what they are in for when they continually pump money into the TCG and pay monthly fees. It's not all that [email protected] un-business-like for that matter.
And yet, we still have people posting here saying that the loot items don't affect game play and that there is no game of chance involved. People are just buying cards to play a card game.
We also have people posting saying they don't really know why you can't play the tournaments (with fees and prizes) in places like Nevada. We also have people saying that the SOE card game and the WoW TCG are the same, and so are their tournaments. Either these people are outright lying to us, or they are very, very confused--despite the fact that the people saying this are over 26.
Fact of the matter is, there is an awful lot of double-speak about the TCG. We're told it's just a card game, and then the ads entice people to gamble for loot that plays no actual role whatsoever in the card game. We're told it's not gambling or that it's a promotional just like McDonald's chances to win prizes, and then it fails legislative tests regarding these promotionals in numerous states and countries.
It's this double-speak that is so reprehensible in my view. It's what has SOE in people's bad books about the item shops in EQ, and it's what much of the outrage was regarding the infamous, alleged ToOW bait and switch.
If you want to have a card game, fine, run a card game. Follow the example set by most of the other companies that offer a TCG, even one that has links to an MMO. If you want to run a game of chance, fine, do it where it's legal, and play by the rules. Don't pretend it's something else. If you really want to be in the business of selling virtual items, how 'bout we just stick with the winning formula of charging people virtual cash? What was wrong with that? No confusion about ownership, no taxation issues; just good clean fun. Yeah that's what gaming used to be about, paying a reasonable price to have some fun. No B.S..
Comments
You do mention an important difference I think. When you pay a subscription fee for a month of entertainment, that is what you are getting. Loot drops that you get by completing ingame content are part of the fun.
Now let's compare this to item shops to start with. Are you paying for a month's worth of entertainment? Nope, you're paying for a virtual item. If you check the fine print, you'll also find that you just paid real money for a virtual item that you don't even own. Entertainment value? I guess, if entering your visa number is entertaining. It's not for me, so I'd say no, I'm not paying for entertainment.
Take this further with paying real cash for a chance at a virtual item. Any entertainment value? Again, only if I enjoy entering my visa number and even if I do I may not get was I was hoping for. Try again next month? No, I can try again right away, and again, and again, and again. Until I hit the $250/day limit that SOE has put on their online store.
If you step back and take another look at this, I think you might see that the difference you highlighted might be bigger than you think.
This is exactly what I am angry about, VIRTUAL ITEMS, If we keep shooting shit out of our blowholes the taxman will eventually claim that virtual items are something we own PERSONALLY, now we should all keep this under the rug before a higher athority steps in and claims suddenly well you can gain items in the way of gambling in ALL MMORPGS and suddenly owning virtual things that drop or are gained at a chance with the exchange of a monthly fee is considered gambling FOR ALL MMORPGS, think we should all simmer down about this or we are gonna open a can of worms that should be left closed, you can not physically own virtual things, lets leave it at that please!!!
The can was opened when organizations all over North America and Europe received inumerable complaints about unfair business practices in MMOs. Specifically unconscionable EULAs, alleged bait and switch tactics, advertising features for release that never make the game, selling virtual property (but not really) and offering online games of chance to minors, and to adults without proper checks and balances.
There has been new legslation already passed in the U.S. and the U.K. with more to come. I'm reading some discussion papers from the committees involved. The worms are loose brother. Set free by unrestrained corporate greed and a wreckless disregard for consumer rights. If companies don't regulate themselves (and some haven't), and enough customers get burned (and many have), believe me, someone else will step in to do the regulating for them. At this point, it's not if; it's when and how.
P.S. If asked if I'd rather pay 5 cents tax on a virtual item I want, or spend $250 dollars gambling for it, I wouldn't even have to think about my decision. I'll pay the 5 cents and probably get a much better MMO industry as a result. Fewer scams and some kick-ass refunds if they happen would be a very good thing. Hey maybe even stiff, punitive fines on offending service providers to help keep the cost of regulation to consumers low. Now there's an idea.
P.P.S. I remember when I would spend virtual currency for virtual items. Yup those were the days. I think it's the service providers that blurred the lines when they started asking for real cash in exchange for virtual items. I bet some thought it was just like coding money. Now we have a mess to clean up. Nice going.
The internet and MMO's with the EULAs are like the wild west of North America. It's basically all new where there aren't alot of laws governing any of it, but when a company like SOE tries to bend the laws in thier favor, some people will take notice and question the business practices of said companies who try to bypass normal laws by using the internet. The most important thing I think is for people to not sit by and not take it and actually speak up about it, even if it's just some forum such as this.
My feelings exaclty. Well summarized, thanks.
Its no illegal if they follow Nevada Gaming laws. basically, they need to admit its gambling then they have to follow a specific odds of winning that the state inposes and pay taxes. TO get around that, the TCG is not available in that state.
Thiers no odds of winning I thought? Ive read that people are mad they never get anything, its a random generator that gives out the goodies. The odds are how many items given out to how many trys I guess. Might as well be 0:0 odds of winning.
The odds are 3 Loot Cards per Booster box on average. These odds are varied with rare game cards and foils also in the mix.
I've read numerous posts where people try to calculate the odds. They never came up with anything consistent. I don't believe official odds of winning are published, and if they were I don't believe that they are independently verified. These issues fail some legislative tests about things like games of chance and/or product promotionals in some areas.
In contrast, once again the WoW TCG--having printed cards that players truly own--can talk about odds and have them independently verified. Much more user friendly imo. Again, the WoW TCG and the SOE TCG are like night and day in some respects it would seem.
I'm not really a WoW fan tbh, I played it for a very short time and didn't like the graphics. Even so, I can see how the way they run their show differs dramatically from what seems to go on in SWG. I can also see that they have had much more success, and I think I can understand why.
Their product is highly polished and functional (partly because they take the time to do it right), they seem to try to stay on the right side of potential controversy, and they seem to place customer satisfaction as a high priority. I find it ironic that so many companies who appear to copy Blizzard seem to miss this basic formula for success.
Its no illegal if they follow Nevada Gaming laws. basically, they need to admit its gambling then they have to follow a specific odds of winning that the state inposes and pay taxes. TO get around that, the TCG is not available in that state.
Thiers no odds of winning I thought? Ive read that people are mad they never get anything, its a random generator that gives out the goodies. The odds are how many items given out to how many trys I guess. Might as well be 0:0 odds of winning.
The odds are 3 Loot Cards per Booster box on average. These odds are varied with rare game cards and foils also in the mix.
I've read numerous posts where people try to calculate the odds. They never came up with anything consistent. I don't believe official odds of winning are published, and if they were I don't believe that they are independently verified. These issues fail some legislative tests about things like games of chance and/or product promotionals in some areas.
In contrast, once again the WoW TCG--having printed cards that players truly own--can talk about odds and have them independently verified. Much more user friendly imo. Again, the WoW TCG and the SOE TCG are like night and day in some respects it would seem.
I'm not really a WoW fan tbh, I played it for a very short time and didn't like the graphics. Even so, I can see how the way they run their show differs dramatically from what seems to go on in SWG. I can also see that they have had much more success, and I think I can understand why.
Their product is highly polished and functional (partly because they take the time to do it right), they seem to try to stay on the right side of potential controversy, and they seem to place customer satisfaction as a high priority. I find it ironic that so many companies who appear to copy Blizzard seem to miss this basic formula for success.
My sister runs a company where they create new card games as an alternative to blackjack/poker etc and then sells them to Casinos across the country. I know that they have to consult some guy/company called the "Wizard of Odds" based in Las Vegas and she makes frequent trips out there to have new games they create have the odds verified.
Edit: Here is a link to the Washington State Gambling Commission with all the games listed my sister sells and helped create under SquareJack gaming http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/docs/game_rules/cardroom_game_rules_owner.asp.
If you look at the PDFs they have odds listed for every game they have created. To me the question is this: Is SOE selling the actual TCG as a game or as a chance to get LOOT like all of the advertisements are using to draw people in? Every single advertisement emphasises LOOT as the actual draw over the actual gameplay.
The average mmo player is 26 years old or above (there have been surveys done and at various points I have posted at least 3 different ones...I am too lazy to do it again). IMO...this is a mature enough age that people should realize how the TCG works.....no matter how "devious" it is presented. I mean...it never fooled me...and I really don't think it's fooling too many others. People know what they are in for when they continually pump money into the TCG and pay monthly fees. It's not all that [email protected] un-business-like for that matter.
And yet, we still have people posting here saying that the loot items don't affect game play and that there is no game of chance involved. People are just buying cards to play a card game.
We also have people posting saying they don't really know why you can't play the tournaments (with fees and prizes) in places like Nevada. We also have people saying that the SOE card game and the WoW TCG are the same, and so are their tournaments. Either these people are outright lying to us, or they are very, very confused--despite the fact that the people saying this are over 26.
Fact of the matter is, there is an awful lot of double-speak about the TCG. We're told it's just a card game, and then the ads entice people to gamble for loot that plays no actual role whatsoever in the card game. We're told it's not gambling or that it's a promotional just like McDonald's chances to win prizes, and then it fails legislative tests regarding these promotionals in numerous states and countries.
It's this double-speak that is so reprehensible in my view. It's what has SOE in people's bad books about the item shops in EQ, and it's what much of the outrage was regarding the infamous, alleged ToOW bait and switch.
If you want to have a card game, fine, run a card game. Follow the example set by most of the other companies that offer a TCG, even one that has links to an MMO. If you want to run a game of chance, fine, do it where it's legal, and play by the rules. Don't pretend it's something else. If you really want to be in the business of selling virtual items, how 'bout we just stick with the winning formula of charging people virtual cash? What was wrong with that? No confusion about ownership, no taxation issues; just good clean fun. Yeah that's what gaming used to be about, paying a reasonable price to have some fun. No B.S..