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SWTOR: does it have an Endgame?

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  • RydesonRydeson Member UncommonPosts: 3,852
    Originally posted by Troneas

    Originally posted by Rydeson


     
    KOSTER.. Your skils and ideas are epic fail... He's a legend in his own mind, like many of the SWG devs of the past..  So in conclusion, it takes less staff and energy to maintain a game that goes from point A to point B, then to sandbox it and let everyone go everywhere.. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, lets give you an example you might grasp..   If you are incharge of grade school recess and have 30 kids in the playground.. It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help..  Like I said.. Koster doesn't seem to understand that concept..  I seriously doubt that any MMO will try a pure sandbox again, because it's just requires too many resources..



     

    you do realise you are saying precisely what koster has stated in his rule of online game design?

    as a school kid you would much rather be let loose and find the games you want to play, because it will give you liberty and responsibility, rather than being taken by the teachers hand to game A, and then, along with all the group, to game B and so on and so forth... but you are afraid that, "unsupervised" you will fall down and break your nose.

    i will quote koster again for you:

    "You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    and i will quote you:

    "It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help.. "

    in the rest of your post, you merely elaborated as to why you think it would be a lot harder to make a successful sandbox, as koster said.

     

         I and Koster do not share the same ideas..  I live in the real world where one has to learn their limitations. Koster lives in a cyber world where he thinks he knows everything with no limitations..  A sandbox game as wonderful as it sounds in theory, will probably never be successful or last as long..  A true sandbox (sim) game requires too many resources to keep up with the ever changing sim world of the game.. Even children at recess have rules and limits what they are allowed to do and not allowed to do.. with supervision that Koster will NEVER be able to afford in a MMO community.. Let me give you a simple example..   Lil Jimmy pushes Sally down on the playground cause he feels like PvP'ing her.. Teacher sees it and puts Jimmy in time out detention and makes NEW rules to conduct on the playground..  How do you think customers would like being put in time out?  I have taught grade school and I know what it takes to keep ORDER, even during recess.. Do you?  I seriously doubt it.. I doubt Koster does either..

         The only way a Sandbox has a slim chance of working is one with limitations.. OH wait.. that sounds like we're going back to a linear approach again.. lol   Even bumper cars has rules and regulations.. So from a business point of view.. I'll spend my resources making the easiest game that will yield the most return on investment.. 

  • SabradinSabradin Member Posts: 772
    Originally posted by Rydeson

    Originally posted by Troneas

    Originally posted by Rydeson


     
    KOSTER.. Your skils and ideas are epic fail... He's a legend in his own mind, like many of the SWG devs of the past..  So in conclusion, it takes less staff and energy to maintain a game that goes from point A to point B, then to sandbox it and let everyone go everywhere.. If you still don't understand what I'm saying, lets give you an example you might grasp..   If you are incharge of grade school recess and have 30 kids in the playground.. It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help..  Like I said.. Koster doesn't seem to understand that concept..  I seriously doubt that any MMO will try a pure sandbox again, because it's just requires too many resources..



     

    you do realise you are saying precisely what koster has stated in his rule of online game design?

    as a school kid you would much rather be let loose and find the games you want to play, because it will give you liberty and responsibility, rather than being taken by the teachers hand to game A, and then, along with all the group, to game B and so on and so forth... but you are afraid that, "unsupervised" you will fall down and break your nose.

    i will quote koster again for you:

    "You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully."

    and i will quote you:

    "It's MUCH easier to supervise them all if you only allow them to go down the slide in turn.. IF you cut them all loose and let them do whatever they want, You'll have chaos unless you get more help.. "

    in the rest of your post, you merely elaborated as to why you think it would be a lot harder to make a successful sandbox, as koster said.

     

         I and Koster do not share the same ideas..  I live in the real world where one has to learn their limitations. Koster lives in a cyber world where he thinks he knows everything with no limitations..  A sandbox game as wonderful as it sounds in theory, will probably never be successful or last as long..  A true sandbox (sim) game requires too many resources to keep up with the ever changing sim world of the game.. Even children at recess have rules and limits what they are allowed to do and not allowed to do.. with supervision that Koster will NEVER be able to afford in a MMO community.. Let me give you a simple example..   Lil Jimmy pushes Sally down on the playground cause he feels like PvP'ing her.. Teacher sees it and puts Jimmy in time out detention and makes NEW rules to conduct on the playground..  How do you think customers would like being put in time out?  I have taught grade school and I know what it takes to keep ORDER, even during recess.. Do you?  I seriously doubt it.. I doubt Koster does either..

         The only way a Sandbox has a slim chance of working is one with limitations.. OH wait.. that sounds like we're going back to a linear approach again.. lol   Even bumper cars has rules and regulations.. So from a business point of view.. I'll spend my resources making the easiest game that will yield the most return on investment.. 



     

    as Andrew Bernard would say

    -> Nailed it.

    Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.

  • therain93therain93 Member UncommonPosts: 2,039

    Ah, endgame -- a topic I haven't thought about for some time.....I'm going to cut and paste a few things I put together about this from the CoX forum...

    "A friendly piece of advice, don't fall for end game hype -- the joy of a game is in the journey (and completing the journey). Before mmo's, once you reached the end, you just moved on to the next game and/or occasionally replayed the old one. Endgame is a BS idea perpetuated by developers to be an extended timesink just to collect more of your subscription money.

    In most action/adventure/shooter/rpg single player games, you get new powers and abilities. Contra, Devil May Cry, God of War, Diablo, Doom -- you always start out wussy. But then you go through the journey and you get more powerful until you reach the end -- you beat the game, reach max level. What happens now?

    For those single player games, you either start over with a new build, maybe go back to find some missing things, or you move on to the next game, don't you? Why should you treat mmos any differently? Because the companies said so? Companies contrived this idea of endgame, that you can do more with your character but there's no way for them to keep up with that demand*. They SOLD everyone on this IDEA that there's more to do AFTER YOU BEAT THE GAME but the fact is, once you're done with the game....you're done.  They do this because they want to stretch out how long you're going to pay them.

    Heck, think about monopoly -- you start out "wussy" with your 200 dollars. You go in circles a whole bunch of times and, as you do, you acquire new powers (properties, get out of jail free cards), equipment (first houses and then hotels) , and ever-more money to upgrade. There are time sinks (jail, getting all of the same color before adding houses) and pvp (land on someone else's property and pay through the nose) as well as some glorious moments (winning 2nd prize in the beauty pageant). But, inevitably, you max out. Now, your choice is to either keep going around the board and collect 200 dollars (perhaps collect some more rent if people are even willing to play still), start a new game with a different build (acquire different properties since it's the roll of the dice) and see if you can beat it again, or just move on to the next board game (the Game of Life or Stratego.)

    This is what I mean by end-game being contrived." Be prepared to beat the game and just move on... 

     

    (more of this discussion can be found here: http://www.mpog.com/discussion2.cfm?post=2126438&bhcp=1#2126438)

     

  • SabradinSabradin Member Posts: 772
    Originally posted by therain93


    Ah, endgame -- a topic I haven't thought about for some time.....I'm going to cut and paste a few things I put together about this from the CoX forum...
    "A friendly piece of advice, don't fall for end game hype -- the joy of a game is in the journey (and completing the journey). Before mmo's, once you reached the end, you just moved on to the next game and/or occasionally replayed the old one. Endgame is a BS idea perpetuated by developers to be an extended timesink just to collect more of your subscription money.
    In most action/adventure/shooter/rpg single player games, you get new powers and abilities. Contra, Devil May Cry, God of War, Diablo, Doom -- you always start out wussy. But then you go through the journey and you get more powerful until you reach the end -- you beat the game, reach max level. What happens now?
    For those single player games, you either start over with a new build, maybe go back to find some missing things, or you move on to the next game, don't you? Why should you treat mmos any differently? Because the companies said so? Companies contrived this idea of endgame, that you can do more with your character but there's no way for them to keep up with that demand*. They SOLD everyone on this IDEA that there's more to do AFTER YOU BEAT THE GAME but the fact is, once you're done with the game....you're done.  They do this because they want to stretch out how long you're going to pay them.
    Heck, think about monopoly -- you start out "wussy" with your 200 dollars. You go in circles a whole bunch of times and, as you do, you acquire new powers (properties, get out of jail free cards), equipment (first houses and then hotels) , and ever-more money to upgrade. There are time sinks (jail, getting all of the same color before adding houses) and pvp (land on someone else's property and pay through the nose) as well as some glorious moments (winning 2nd prize in the beauty pageant). But, inevitably, you max out. Now, your choice is to either keep going around the board and collect 200 dollars (perhaps collect some more rent if people are even willing to play still), start a new game with a different build (acquire different properties since it's the roll of the dice) and see if you can beat it again, or just move on to the next board game (the Game of Life or Stratego.)
    This is what I mean by end-game being contrived." Be prepared to beat the game and just move on... 
     
    (more of this discussion can be found here: http://www.mpog.com/discussion2.cfm?post=2126438&bhcp=1#2126438)
     



     

    Why would customers want to stop playing a game they enjoyed when they could enjoy it more with endgame?

    Why would businesses want to stop them?

    Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.

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