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Devs, we need third person view.

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  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138
    Originally posted by oakthornn


    MMORPG's should have a third person view. This is not a stupid FPS game! Why are devs trying to mix fps with mmo's?!!??! Each one they made for the whinny fps fanbois have come back to bite them on the arse..
    MO is only going to appeal to fps fans, thats it. True MMORPG vets like myself who has started with UO and EQ will NEVER even think of playing a 1st person MMORPG. Its dumb. I like seeing what my character is doing. The only time I ever use 1st person mode is when exploring a new dungeon, new boss monster, or while taking screenshots. This usually lasts a few moments before I switch back to 3rd person.
    Personally, If the devs don't add a 3rd person view option, then that would be incredibly lame and they'l lose out on tens of thousands of dollars.. Not smart in my opinion for something that literally takes a day to implement. *shrug*



     

    BUZZZZ! Wrong answer. I pretty sure I was playing UO before you (unless you started day 1) and I'm signed on to this title. The devs making this game are also vets of UO. Sorry, don't try to throw that out there like you have any basis from reality for that statement. Just state that FPV isn't your personal preference and will cause you not to try it. And move on.

    And as many have stated in this thread and as I will yet again, this is a moot discussion. They are way past the "if" stage. FPV all around is where they are at. Unless some very, very drastic circumstance happens, it isn't going to change.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • DarkPonyDarkPony Member Posts: 5,566
    Originally posted by oakthornn


    MMORPG's should have a third person view. This is not a stupid FPS game! Why are devs trying to mix fps with mmo's?!!??! Each one they made for the whinny fps fanbois have come back to bite them on the arse..
    MO is only going to appeal to fps fans, thats it. True MMORPG vets like myself who has started with UO and EQ will NEVER even think of playing a 1st person MMORPG. Its dumb. I like seeing what my character is doing. The only time I ever use 1st person mode is when exploring a new dungeon, new boss monster, or while taking screenshots. This usually lasts a few moments before I switch back to 3rd person.
    Personally, If the devs don't add a 3rd person view option, then that would be incredibly lame and they'l lose out on tens of thousands of dollars.. Not smart in my opinion for something that literally takes a day to implement. *shrug*

     

    If you put away your '1st person = fps' prejudice away for a second, and think about which viewpoint would fit an mmo better to achieve maximum realism and maximum immersion you have to realize that 1st person has A LOT going for it;

    - in a realistic combat situation you can't see what is behind you until you turn around and you don't have such an easy time getting a tactical overview of the battle around you; this makes combat feel more real and exciting

    - same argument but turned around: in a realistic combat situation you can sneak upon an enemy unseen if he doesn't watch his back or has noone doing it for him (3rd person = eyes in the back of your skull)

    - seeing the world, it's twisted alleyways and wide landscapes from a 1st person view (also when mounted) adds to the immersion a lot

    - I don't know if you played games like Oblivion but the 1st person viewpoint worked very well there.

    You had an option to zoom out though but I think that should bounce back 1st person as soon as you enter combat in MO.

    Making an mmo 1st person is not equal to that mmo being an fps style multiplayer game. If you read about what the developers intend to make, you would know that they have realism and immersion in high regard. Just my cup of RPG tea ...

  • MangoXIIMangoXII Member Posts: 203

    I imagine it would make more money if it offered both first person and third person view.

    And MMORPG makers definitely love the money, right?

    Besides, seeing just your sword is pretty boring to me. I'd be happier to have a third person view where I can see my guy do some pretty nifty maneuvers.

  • shrapnel20shrapnel20 Member Posts: 199

    Mats Persson, Creative Director:

    Of course I know some people will have problems with the first person view and not find it "more immersive" than 3rd person view. Or actually refuse to play the game at all because they hate it. But the question was directed to US or ME, personally and subjectively, and I could have said "because it will sell more" or "because Sebastian is a lousy programmer and couldn't get 3rd person view to work the way I like it". That would be my/our opinion. And I refuse to begin each and every line with "I/we think" or "I/we feel that" or "In my/our personal opinion", especially when I'm asked for my personal view or opinion. (I'm often told I do it too often as it already is, for instance read the next two lines in my answer in the interview).

    But here it goes: We, personally, think first-person view in our game, Mortal Online, is more immersive than third-person view - even though we like third-person view and not necessarily find first-person view more immersive or better in general. For instance, most of us play games in third-person view and find that view better suited for those games. Also, there are a number of MO-features and situations that simply couldn't be made or achieved in third-person view that we believe would generally be regarded as "stuff adding more immersiveness to the gaming experience". And we find it very important to include those features, as we feel the game becomes more immersive with them than third-person view without them. You ask me why we chose first person view for our game, and conclusively we chose it:

    Because of the immersion.

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138
    Originally posted by shrapnel20


    Mats Persson, Creative Director:


    Of course I know some people will have problems with the first person view and not find it "more immersive" than 3rd person view. Or actually refuse to play the game at all because they hate it. But the question was directed to US or ME, personally and subjectively, and I could have said "because it will sell more" or "because Sebastian is a lousy programmer and couldn't get 3rd person view to work the way I like it". That would be my/our opinion. And I refuse to begin each and every line with "I/we think" or "I/we feel that" or "In my/our personal opinion", especially when I'm asked for my personal view or opinion. (I'm often told I do it too often as it already is, for instance read the next two lines in my answer in the interview).
    But here it goes: We, personally, think first-person view in our game, Mortal Online, is more immersive than third-person view - even though we like third-person view and not necessarily find first-person view more immersive or better in general. For instance, most of us play games in third-person view and find that view better suited for those games. Also, there are a number of MO-features and situations that simply couldn't be made or achieved in third-person view that we believe would generally be regarded as "stuff adding more immersiveness to the gaming experience". And we find it very important to include those features, as we feel the game becomes more immersive with them than third-person view without them. You ask me why we chose first person view for our game, and conclusively we chose it:

    Because of the immersion.

    Good find Shrap!

     

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,260
    Originally posted by Khalathwyr


    I'm 100% on board with the decision to go first person view only. I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, OP, but mounted view will be first person view only as well. In my opinion having only this view will create a more challenging play environment. I like that if you want to be aware of what's around you you have to put yourself out there and risk attack, as opposed to just zooming out. It puts a premium on situational awareness, whether in PvE or PvP.

     

    You are correct it will be more challenging but only because it adds restriction to view,that is not challenging in the meaning of the word ,it is just creating a false skill.3rd person adds a better over all view,IMO if the game can't create a challenging combat system outside of limiting your view,they need seriious help.

    You can argue it until your blue, facts are facts,limiting view should not be the reason for creating skill/challenge.It carries the same analogy as saying we will make baseball more challenging by making you play on ice,or football more challenging by making you play blindfolded.It is just dumb and does not make any sense.

    MO looks like a game with potential and a good looking game,but sometrhing like this does need at minimum an optional choice by the user.I mean it is also like saying you can ONLY use the arrow keys or ONLY the WASD keys,would you be happy then?no of course not,there should be some degree of choice for each user.

    Fine if you like FP view then you should have it,but if the OP wants 3rdPV then he should have it.I play UT99 still to this day,everyone plays in FP view ,but you know what,you can play in 3rd if you so desire ,Epic games had the common sense to allow the choice for the user,that is why EPIC is a giant and a smart publisher/developer,guess what engine MO uses?yep Epics UE3 lol..Foreign developers ALWAYS tend to be biased and one sided in their thinking ,this is why so many can't stand their UI's.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • xxxfistxxxxxxfistxxx Member Posts: 47
    Originally posted by shrapnel20


    Mats Persson, Creative Director:


    Of course I know some people will have problems with the first person view and not find it "more immersive" than 3rd person view. Or actually refuse to play the game at all because they hate it. But the question was directed to US or ME, personally and subjectively, and I could have said "because it will sell more" or "because Sebastian is a lousy programmer and couldn't get 3rd person view to work the way I like it". That would be my/our opinion. And I refuse to begin each and every line with "I/we think" or "I/we feel that" or "In my/our personal opinion", especially when I'm asked for my personal view or opinion. (I'm often told I do it too often as it already is, for instance read the next two lines in my answer in the interview).
    But here it goes: We, personally, think first-person view in our game, Mortal Online, is more immersive than third-person view - even though we like third-person view and not necessarily find first-person view more immersive or better in general. For instance, most of us play games in third-person view and find that view better suited for those games. Also, there are a number of MO-features and situations that simply couldn't be made or achieved in third-person view that we believe would generally be regarded as "stuff adding more immersiveness to the gaming experience". And we find it very important to include those features, as we feel the game becomes more immersive with them than third-person view without them. You ask me why we chose first person view for our game, and conclusively we chose it:

    Because of the immersion.

    An artist knows that someone will frame his piece, that is part of the reason why the artist frames the focal point with art.

    If the design of the game has taken this perspective into account at all, you are  basically a complete twit to suggest they change there design now. People need to start looking at products through the eyes of the designer, if they identify with it then great support it and buy it. However if you do not identify with it move along and find something else to watch.

    We need people that appreciate the choices made by these games creative teams, and not hinder there process with qualms with the decisions they have obviously taken the time to consider.

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Member Posts: 3,138
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Originally posted by Khalathwyr


    I'm 100% on board with the decision to go first person view only. I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, OP, but mounted view will be first person view only as well. In my opinion having only this view will create a more challenging play environment. I like that if you want to be aware of what's around you you have to put yourself out there and risk attack, as opposed to just zooming out. It puts a premium on situational awareness, whether in PvE or PvP.

     

    You are correct it will be more challenging but only because it adds restriction to view,that is not challenging in the meaning of the word ,it is just creating a false skill.3rd person adds a better over all view,IMO if the game can't create a challenging combat system outside of limiting your view,they need seriious help.

    You can argue it until your blue, facts are facts,limiting view should not be the reason for creating skill/challenge.It carries the same analogy as saying we will make baseball more challenging by making you play on ice,or football more challenging by making you play blindfolded.It is just dumb and does not make any sense.

    MO looks like a game with potential and a good looking game,but sometrhing like this does need at minimum an optional choice by the user.I mean it is also like saying you can ONLY use the arrow keys or ONLY the WASD keys,would you be happy then?no of course not,there should be some degree of choice for each user.

    Fine if you like FP view then you should have it,but if the OP wants 3rdPV then he should have it.I play UT99 still to this day,everyone plays in FP view ,but you know what,you can play in 3rd if you so desire ,Epic games had the common sense to allow the choice for the user,that is why EPIC is a giant and a smart publisher/developer,guess what engine MO uses?yep Epics UE3 lol..Foreign developers ALWAYS tend to be biased and one sided in their thinking ,this is why so many can't stand their UI's.



     

    1. Limiting the view is not SV's only reason for creating skill/challenge. You can read a recent post by Shrapnel where he quoted Mats (creative director) discussing their desire to use FPV.

    That said, say what you will. I just logged out of COD: WaW and I know how much of a difference it makes not being able to magically see the whole area around you from on high. It is more challenging having to listen for footsteps or people reloading or gunfire on the other side of builidings as opposed to having your recon plane overhead and all opposing soldiers showing up as orange dots on your radar.

    2. The only fact here is that FPV is in and TPV is not. Doesn't matter whether you, I or the OP likes it. That's the way it is. Frankly, this is an option that doesn't bother me with regard to trying something different with a modern game. All the other TPV games out there try to "try something new" in areas that put me off from playing them.

    As far as being biased ond one sided, the same could be said of domestic US developers and their incessant drive to force more directed content, microtransactioned, WoW imitating, 30 day wonder games down the genre's throat.

    Knowledge is power. Power makes things easier. Taking away TPV takes away from situational knowledge regading your immediate area. Makes things more challenging. People will just have to find new ways to adapt.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • y2mattitudey2mattitude Member Posts: 32

    I hope they continue with the first person view. We need more innovation in this industry, and a purely 1st person MMO would be very interesitng. =D

    Man is born, man lives, man dies, and its all vanity.

  • UnderdogSMOUnderdogSMO Member Posts: 41

    I get the impretion alot of the people that want TPV never realy played game's like obliveon, its a FPV RPG and it works vary well, and is made to be played in FPV. it has a TPV but ,,, well it sucks

  • drag9999drag9999 Member Posts: 252

    FPV is awesome! Really, I find it what makes or kills immersion. I have never been so immersed in a game since Oblivion, mostly because of the first person view and excelent sound effects.

  • UnderdogSMOUnderdogSMO Member Posts: 41

    OH!  and the ffact that how the hell are you sapose to tell if your aming for a players face or there lag if your cam is over the top of them, this game is sapose to have a few hit box's after all

  • ReizlaReizla Member RarePosts: 4,092
    Originally posted by UnderdogSMO


    I get the impretion alot of the people that want TPV never realy played game's like obliveon, its a FPV RPG and it works vary well, and is made to be played in FPV. it has a TPV but ,,, well it sucks

    Oblivion is no FPV only RPG at all...You can switch to (a limited) 3rd person easily, and TBH, I've set it to 3rd person a lot...

     

    IMO (to get back on topic) MO should be able to support 3rd person view as well. Reason only that a large numebr of players actually get sick from FPV (not me, but a friend of mine realy throws up if he watches longer then 10 mins in FPV). If the MO devs give a limited 3rd person (as Oblivion has), I think they'll attract a bigger audience...

    ...this thread reminds me to reinstall and play Oblivionagain ;)

  • GaladournGaladourn Member RarePosts: 1,810

    I agree with OP, I'd want a toggleable 3rd person camera view.

     

    FPV is tiresome and rather limiting for MMOs.  A tight 3rd person view would not be thwarting ambush possibilities and all.

     

    We may not like the path WoW-type MMOs are treading, but it's not prudent to also despise the good things they have that work. One being 3rd person view.

  • ProfRedProfRed Member UncommonPosts: 3,494

    Doubt they will change it, and they are right.  First person is just more immersive.  They are doing first person right as well with true first person.

  • miagisanmiagisan Member Posts: 5,156

    i think the option of first person or 3rd person is a requirement. I find 3rd person alot more immersive when i am just exploring, or rpging or whatever. I enjoy seeing my avatar, clothing, and emotes.

    image

  • ProfRedProfRed Member UncommonPosts: 3,494
    Originally posted by miagisan


    i think the option of first person or 3rd person is a requirement. I find 3rd person alot more immersive when i am just exploring, or rpging or whatever. I enjoy seeing my avatar, clothing, and emotes.

     

    I disagree.  I think that is almost as ignorant as saying that being able to get off of your ship in a space game is a requirement.  EVE is a perfectly viable game and you can't see your avatar, clothing, or emotes. 

    First person is almost always more immersive even if you prefer it the other way around.  I didn't believe this until I was forced to run around first person in Darkfall when it is a much more tense environment.  I guess thought that is an opinion.  I wouldn't care about 3rd person being optional except that I think twitch based PvP with sneaking is more fun with forced first person where you actually have to turn your character to see behind you.  I find it entirely unrealistic and uninspired to be able to attack in front of you while looking backwards with the camera so I would hope if there was 3rd person it still was bound to your characters FOV.

  • ejschroderejschroder Member Posts: 15

    No one needs TPV. Star Vault can add in-game mirrors for all you narcissists.

  • TorgrimTorgrim Member CommonPosts: 2,088
    Originally posted by miagisan


    i think the option of first person or 3rd person is a requirement. I find 3rd person alot more immersive when i am just exploring, or rpging or whatever. I enjoy seeing my avatar, clothing, and emotes.



     

    Have you ever consider that TPV can be used to look around corners if there is a player there, or spin the camera around to see if someone is sneaking up on you while you are fighting a mob?

     

    TPV.....NO THANKS

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by Torgrim


    Have you ever consider that TPV can be used to look around corners if there is a player there, or spin the camera around to see if someone is sneaking up on you while you are fighting a mob?
     
    TPV.....NO THANKS



     

    If the camera is free roaming or the viewpoint is too far behind the player, then yes you can use it to look around corners. 

     

    TPV immersion vs. FPV immersion is a preference and there really isn't anything to discuss about who is right or wrong.  I think they both equally important to make a game feel fluid, and any development team that completely disregards one is making a terrible mistake.

  • joshejoshe Member Posts: 379


    Originally posted by thinktank001
    If the camera is free roaming or the viewpoint is too far behind the player, then yes you can use it to look around corners. 
     
    TPV immersion vs. FPV immersion is a preference and there really isn't anything to discuss about who is right or wrong.  I think they both equally important to make a game feel fluid, and any development team that completely disregards one is making a terrible mistake.

    plenty successful FPV RPGs on the market without TPV.
    So maybe reconsider again what you said about those "terrible mistakes".

    Of course this is your opinion, but I'll stay with mine beliefs about playing FPV RPGs.

    --
    /thread

    Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by joshe


     


    plenty successful FPV RPGs on the market without TPV.

    So maybe reconsider again what you said about those "terrible mistakes".
     
    Of course this is your opinion, but I'll stay with mine beliefs about playing FPV RPGs.



     

    Pull your head out of your ass and read what I wrote.  I did not say anything about it not being successful.  I said it was a terrible mistake because you are excluding a portion of your possible players, and it limits the amount things you can do.

      

    Interaction with the environment and gauging distances is much more realistic in TPV.   It actually opens up the game to more platform type elements.   Melee combat will always look more fluid and professional if done with a  TPV.  A game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewng perspectives ( i.e. same as bringing a binoculars along on a sight seeing trip ).

  • L1ghtsabeRL1ghtsabeR Member Posts: 102
    Originally posted by thinktank001

    Originally posted by joshe


     


    plenty successful FPV RPGs on the market without TPV.

    So maybe reconsider again what you said about those "terrible mistakes".
     
    Of course this is your opinion, but I'll stay with mine beliefs about playing FPV RPGs.



     

    Pull your head out of your ass and read what I wrote.  I did not say anything about it not being successful.  I said it was a terrible mistake because you are excluding a portion of your possible players, and it limits the amount things you can do.

      

    Interaction with the environment and gauging distances is much more realistic in TPV.   It actually opens up the game to more platform type elements.   Melee combat will always look more fluid and professional if done with a  TPV.  A game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewng perspectives ( i.e. same as bringing a binoculars along on a sight seeing trip ).

    I indulge you to go and read the various topics discussing FPV and TPV on the MO official forums.

     

    How is it a terrible mistake to not add TPV? Care to explain in detail? FPV a game design decision made by the devs, many of the core features of MO, like the combat system, are designed around the fact that the game will be FPV and FPV only. If they were to add TPV in this stage they would have to redesign quite a few of the games features, which will add months to the development time and also steer the game away from its original concept, which is a fully FPV experience.

     

    How exactly is interaction with the environment more realistic in TPV? I'd say it's quite the opposite. In FPV you see the world and interact with the world as if you are the character, you see the world through the eyes of your character. In TPV you are the puppet master who's hovering above the character and manipulating it.

     

    How can you state that melee combat will always look more fluid and professional in TPV? That's a completely subjective opinion and there is no factual proof to back that claim. I'd say games like Mount&Blade and Dark Messiah have very fluid melee combat. Furthermore, even if you believe that every FPV melee combat game to date has not been fluid, how on earth can you claim MO won't be? You have not played the game so making such a claim is simply stupid.

     

    Again, claiming that "a game can be much more dynamic, and a lot more fun when using multiple viewing perspectives" is a completely subjective opinion and should not be stated as fact. Furthermore, playing in TPV has many advantages over FPV, so basically adding TPV would mean that all competitive players would be forced to play in TPV all the time, since it will give them the edge in battle.

     

    So, in conclusion, the..

    main reasons why MO will not have TPV:

    - game features are designed around FPV and would need to be changed or removed when TPV is added.

     

    - TPV has various advantages over FPV when it comes to combat. TPV would force all competitive players to always use TPV, because it gives them an advantage.

     

    - the developers believe that for their game FPV will provide a more immersive gaming experience. (Note: they are not saying FPV is more immersive than TPV in all games, they are just saying that it's more immersive in the game that they have made.)

  • trembulanttrembulant Member Posts: 101

    I think it sucks ass, the game seems like it could be really awesome, but it blows goats that they won't even have the option of zooming out.

    If someone wants to play in first person, they can, if someone wants to play in 3rd they should be able to, who's to say which is more immersive?

    What's the point of alienating people in todays tooth and nail market?

    It's the Unreal engine for frik sake, what a waste of a liscense.

  • joshejoshe Member Posts: 379


    Originally posted by trembulant
    I think it sucks ass, the game seems like it could be really awesome, but it blows goats that they won't even have the option of zooming out.
    If someone wants to play in first person, they can, if someone wants to play in 3rd they should be able to, who's to say which is more immersive?
    What's the point of alienating people in todays tooth and nail market?
    It's the Unreal engine for frik sake, what a waste of a liscense.
    Plenty tpv games to choose from.
    Why you need another one, isn't my concern.
    But I, like dozen of other players don't need another tpv point&clicker.

    Someone said that fpv would be "excluding a portion of possible players".
    Those would be small % in the background of all players attracted by FPV only mmorpgame.

    --
    /thread

    Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)

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