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Lots of concern over death penalty

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  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195

    So...i read up on the website..and..well...your just a ship right?...you just explore and classify planets and do battle...or are there Individual avatars?..anyone know?...it seems you're either a Klingon or Starfleet captain. and that's all. sorry..i love star trek..but this does not sound very fun to me. Maybe I'll be wrong...i hope so.

  • isolorisolor Member Posts: 189
    Originally posted by BarCrow


    So...i read up on the website..and..well...your just a ship right?...you just explore and classify planets and do battle...or are there Individual avatars?..anyone know?...it seems you're either a Klingon or Starfleet captain. and that's all. sorry..i love star trek..but this does not sound very fun to me. Maybe I'll be wrong...i hope so.

     

    I will try to answer your questions, from what I have read and seen,

    What I have read, and seen from screen shots/videos, you will be an avatar. that can beam down to planets and explore the planets meet alien races, etc. You also will be able to walk around your ship, invite friends to it, and also have on ship combat with the other factions. As of now you will be able to chose between 6 races, and they have stated there will be a way to make yourself an alien race.

    While you are warping through space, or doing space battles , then yes you are the ship.

    This came is skilled based, so far as I can tell. and you will not just be a ship captain. you can also be an engineer, doctor, securty specialist. etc. so when you beam down to a planet I think that is the role you would play, when grouped with others for away missions.

    When the game launches, you will only be able to choose either Starfleet or Klingon factions. but I think more will be added in expansion packs.

  • SolarTigerSolarTiger Member Posts: 43

    I used to be in the column for no death penalty, but after reading some of the posts...

    You're right....low levels should have low penalty...but if you've played awhile and  venture out into the Black...KNOWING the dangers/risks, well...

    "...in space...no one can here you QQ..."

    but save the XP, alright?!?!

  • derektoddderektodd Member Posts: 79

    I believe not having a death penalty would be a big mistake. I also believe a total loss of your ship after your first death would be totally wrong as well. Here is my suggestion:

    Have a death penalty for PVE ONLY but with stages -

    PVE Only

    Stage 1 - you are defeated in a mission. You and your ship are towed to the nearest Starbase.

    A. Your ship can only be repaired up to 50% of its previous health. In order to heal your ship to 100% strength you will have to wait 30 minutes.

    B. If you choose to go into battle again at 50% strength and you are defeated again before the 30 minute penalty has passed, you can heal your ship up to 25% strength. If you continue fighting within that 30 minute penalty period you could lose your ship forever.

    C. During the 30 minute period your ship will also lose strength in sensor readings, shields, warp drive, etc.

    D. Each time you are required to take your ship in for repairs, you will be required to purchase your repairs from a player controlled engineer.

    E. Your ship should have a "wear and tear" to it. Meaning after so many deaths, your ship will no longer be able to return to full strength. This would include shields, warp drive, etc. After so many deaths you would be forced to have to purchase a new ship. 

    If you choose to ignore your ships' warning then you deserve to lose your ship. This would allow players to make risky decisions without having to be too concern about losing their ship after one death.

    After two deaths in less than 30 minutes most people who love their ships, would think twice about going into battle again.

    This would also settle the issue for a player controlled economy.

    This should settle the issue of having a death penalty.

    NO DEATH PENALTY FOR PVP

    How does this sound????

  • ChawarChawar Member Posts: 1

    To the OP and those people against death penalty: Death penalty is what makes the game look real, is what makes the adrenaline flow and what makes it a lot more fun.

    What kind of PvP will it be if your ship cannot be destroyed? if you risk NOTHING? I am playing a MMO with a large death penalty and its a lot more fun.

    And what the hell is the fun in PvE besides driving you to PVP? came on, AI ships will always do the same and after you kill 2, its always the same stuff. AI cannot match a human player.

    Theres nothing better than fighting another human player in a fair fight and destroying his ship, and it feels a lot better if you risk something (it is pixels!)

    Carebears should play single player games (and WoW for that matter) and stop whinning over death penalties.

     Dont get me wrong, I dont mean that you have to get crushed if you die, PvP should be cheap in his basic version, and it has to be about skill, not about gear or more grinding. There should be high end ships and gear, but only marginally better than the basic version. This would make a goal for people to craft as well. And pvp should not be mandatory, but would be the only way to achieve some kind of RvR victory or some special grinding. This would make economic and crafting play stiles more rewarding.

     

  • MosfetMosfet Member CommonPosts: 125

    I agree. Of course there should be death penalty for death. I like the ideas Derektodd had, in the shows the ships could take a helluva beating but still function, not near full capacity but still going. Star trek II, Enterprise was hit bad but they managed to get some stuff back online and save the day, In ST:VOY the "Year of Hell" I think the episodes are called the Voyager takes a crap load of damage but keeps going albeit with very limited functionality but going nevertheless.

    The ships in ST can take a lot of damage and still keep going but they are not indestructible. Taking alot of damage has to require some sort of extra care at a starbase and take a while to repair. Starships do blow up, its not often but they do so ship loss should be ingame in some way to deter people from just jumping in no matter what the situation is or  what condition the ship is in.

    "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195
    Originally posted by isolor

    Originally posted by BarCrow


    So...i read up on the website..and..well...your just a ship right?...you just explore and classify planets and do battle...or are there Individual avatars?..anyone know?...it seems you're either a Klingon or Starfleet captain. and that's all. sorry..i love star trek..but this does not sound very fun to me. Maybe I'll be wrong...i hope so.

     

    I will try to answer your questions, from what I have read and seen,

    What I have read, and seen from screen shots/videos, you will be an avatar. that can beam down to planets and explore the planets meet alien races, etc. You also will be able to walk around your ship, invite friends to it, and also have on ship combat with the other factions. As of now you will be able to chose between 6 races, and they have stated there will be a way to make yourself an alien race.

    While you are warping through space, or doing space battles , then yes you are the ship.

    This came is skilled based, so far as I can tell. and you will not just be a ship captain. you can also be an engineer, doctor, securty specialist. etc. so when you beam down to a planet I think that is the role you would play, when grouped with others for away missions.

    When the game launches, you will only be able to choose either Starfleet or Klingon factions. but I think more will be added in expansion packs.

    If this is as you describe then I'm a little relieved...might try the game. I'm still not keen on the "everyone is the Captain"..or the whole crew, for that matter.Still think separate players and/or npcs should perform individual crew duties....oh well.

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Member UncommonPosts: 3,821

    Well while I'm against ship loss I don't think there should be no penalty either. I personally think that your ship should be able to be damaged to a just barely functional state and you will have to repair it before it can be used to it's full capacity again. This would cost you in both resources and time to repair. For a heavily damaged large cruiser or dreadnaught this could be a considerable setback. Ship loss just doesn't fit well in the Star Trek universe as most ships are given to their captains by their respective fleets. They don't pay for them out of their own pockets. Your rank will denote what ships you can have so ship loss would be meaningless. Your fleet would just replace it with another one.

     

    This works well in EVE but would be a huge mistake for STO as the economy will be very different. Rank and prestige will get you your ship, not just merely having enough ISK to buy another one.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • dirtyklingondirtyklingon Member Posts: 158

    i think destroying a pc ship should give a reward such as mats/resources/prestige, but there should be no penalty for dying except to get respawned at the nearest starbase.

    some people want something like eve, but in what way is eve anything like star trek except both being in space?

     

    as far as the heavy damage penalty thing goes, do you really want to sit around for 15+ minutes while your ship repairs in the middle of a pack of klingon marauders hoping they simply don't de-cloak as soon as you start moving again, or respawn in a different area?

     

     

    KERPLAH!

  • MithiosMithios Member Posts: 271

    I'm probably going to get a lot of flak over this, but I feel it needs to be said. WOW and EVE players shouldn't even bother with this game.  WOW players are soft and whiny. EVE players are hardcore ISK hunters.  I don't believe you belong here.

    A game like STO should feel as in depth and full of history as the series. That includes economy, social and rank hiarchies, PvE, PvP, ship/station/ and starbase life and hapenings, alience structures, exploration, negotiations, etc...

    Absolutely there should be a penalty for wrong or ill-meditated actions. Ships should be able to be destroyed but not avatars.  I believe derektodd has a good idea of things. As for the avatar, if thier ship gets destroyed, perhaps they could get captured by the enemy. If another player wants to pay thier ransom (give them a rezz) then they can get back in the action almost immediately. Otherwise they have to wait for thier faction to negociate the terms of thier release. The later could last ten maybe 15 minutes in which they are safely returned to their nearest safe starbase or planet where they get a nice little com from a supierior officer reminding them that the next occurence of a lost ship could cause them a demotion in rank, status, and pay.

    I also believe it to be a mistake to start the game out with only 2 playable races. I think the minimun should be the Klingons, Humans, Cardasians, Vulcans, and the Romulans.

    Battle should be intense right from the go. Players should feel like thier making a difference as well as a name for themselves. Battle should have an honor system. If I get into a skirmish with the enemy and chose not to destroy them (as is known to happen), that race/faction remembers and the player is awarded honor points that can accumulate where players of opposite factions can see as well as NPC may be less inclined to destroy your ship in the future.

    Starbases should be full of culture and life, gambling, laughters, families, mercenaries, etc... I believe there should be a seperate faction away from military. Perhaps after several years of being in Starfleet, I decide the merchant or mercenary life is for me, or pirate the galaxy, or just settle down on earth as a merchant or clothier. I can resign from Starfleet and join the local civilian life or rogue faction and take my reputation with me. If I decide later to return to active duty I can re-enter at half status I left with.

    I do not think all races should have cloaking capabilities. I think each race and faction should have thier own strengths and weakness'. If I can cloak and so can you. There could be a whole sector with 200 ships cloaked and hourse going by where everyone is waiting for someone else to uncloak. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to eat humble pie. Klingons and Romulans should be able to cloak, and the opposite factions should have the ability to better detect cloaked ships the better thier skill gets.

    Economy should be player based, hence the civilian faction so to speak. Players should be able to buy the basics from NPCs, though the higher quality things should be able to be bought from player merchants or earned through thier goverment faction.

    In the end though, I want my heart to be beating out of my chest because I miscalculated a situation and now my ship is in grave danger of being destroyed as I'm running for my faction's line at impulse power only because my warpcore was destroyed by the remaining two Cardasin ships that  fooled me into thinking they just wanted to "talk", but decided they would rather end my career in Starfleet and piece out my ship to the highest Ferengi bider....Just me though.

    A tiny mind is a tidy mind...

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,061
    [quote]Originally posted by Mithios


    I'm probably going to get a lot of flak over this, but I feel it needs to be said. WOW and EVE players shouldn't even bother with this game.  WOW players are soft and whiny. EVE players are hardcore ISK hunters.  I don't believe you belong here.[/quote]
    I don't think we should be encouraging anyone NOT to try out the game. I will admit that it's probably going to be a little more intense than what WOW fans are used to(if they've never played anything besides WOW or its clones) and the ones that want instant gratification will not like it. You can browse the official forums and see some of the gripes to the mere SUGGESTION that the game have ship loss and item decay.EVE players will probably enjoy the space aspects as well as being able to be more than just a ship.
    [quote]A game like STO should feel as in depth and full of history as the series. That includes economy, social and rank hiarchies, PvE, PvP, ship/station/ and starbase life and hapenings, alience structures, exploration, negotiations, etc...[/quote]
    Right on
    [quote]Absolutely there should be a penalty for wrong or ill-meditated actions. Ships should be able to be destroyed but not avatars.  I believe derektodd has a good idea of things. As for the avatar, if thier ship gets destroyed, perhaps they could get captured by the enemy. If another player wants to pay thier ransom (give them a rezz) then they can get back in the action almost immediately. Otherwise they have to wait for thier faction to negociate the terms of thier release. The later could last ten maybe 15 minutes in which they are safely returned to their nearest safe starbase or planet where they get a nice little com from a supierior officer reminding them that the next occurence of a lost ship could cause them a demotion in rank, status, and pay.[/quote]
    I think it will be something more along the lines of your ship being damaged and it will take time to repair it. As long as the player can't just jump right back in the action I'm happy.
    [quote]I also believe it to be a mistake to start the game out with only 2 playable races. I think the minimun should be the Klingons, Humans, Cardasians, Vulcans, and the Romulans.[/quote]
    The Vulcans and humans are part of the federation along telerites,andorians and some others. The Klingons are the klingons though I thought I read somwhere that somehow the Gorn were part of the Empire as well.I do agree that Romulans should be playable as well as Ferengi.
    [quote]Battle should be intense right from the go. Players should feel like thier making a difference as well as a name for themselves. Battle should have an honor system. If I get into a skirmish with the enemy and chose not to destroy them (as is known to happen), that race/faction remembers and the player is awarded honor points that can accumulate where players of opposite factions can see as well as NPC may be less inclined to destroy your ship in the future.
    Starbases should be full of culture and life, gambling, laughters, families, mercenaries, etc... I believe there should be a seperate faction away from military. Perhaps after several years of being in Starfleet, I decide the merchant or mercenary life is for me, or pirate the galaxy, or just settle down on earth as a merchant or clothier. I can resign from Starfleet and join the local civilian life or rogue faction and take my reputation with me. If I decide later to return to active duty I can re-enter at half status I left with.
    I do not think all races should have cloaking capabilities. I think each race and faction should have thier own strengths and weakness'. If I can cloak and so can you. There could be a whole sector with 200 ships cloaked and hourse going by where everyone is waiting for someone else to uncloak. If I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to eat humble pie. Klingons and Romulans should be able to cloak, and the opposite factions should have the ability to better detect cloaked ships the better thier skill gets.
    Economy should be player based, hence the civilian faction so to speak. Players should be able to buy the basics from NPCs, though the higher quality things should be able to be bought from player merchants or earned through thier goverment faction.
    In the end though, I want my heart to be beating out of my chest because I miscalculated a situation and now my ship is in grave danger of being destroyed as I'm running for my faction's line at impulse power only because my warpcore was destroyed by the remaining two Cardasin ships that  fooled me into thinking they just wanted to "talk", but decided they would rather end my career in Starfleet and piece out my ship to the highest Ferengi bider....Just me though.[/quote]
    Agreed on most counts. I want that feeling of uneasiness when I venture into unkown space.



     

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • TheGrueTheGrue Member Posts: 38

    Severe death penalty in Star Trek Online should be an absolute, but it's more than likely not going to happen.

    I can't say what gamers do or do not want in PvP/PvE combat because it's a matter of choice and it's always been a debatable topic but going with Cryptic's online games from the start to present i would say is a pretty good indication that death in Star Trek Online will be rather tame.

    It's my assumption that you will lose your ship but will have the option to escape by means of an escape pod or shuttlecraft, kinda like eve, and honestaly the only way somebody gets podded in eve is if they're severly outnumbered or they're slow on the draw.

    Even if you do get podded the penalty isn't very severe unless said character is sporting expensive implants, and uusually by this time the player can handle themselves pretty well...mostly.

    There are questions abount about how it's going to be in Star Trek, what about the Borg for example or Species 8472? there should be more here than a simple death....in my opinion once your are asslimated you should be able to, for lack of a better word, work for said enemies...in fact it should be the only way.

  • HagonbokHagonbok Member Posts: 365

    The entire problem as I see it over the death penalty issue is that a bunch of people are doing a couple of different things.

    1. They believe a death penalty needs to be overly harsh.

    2. The most logical (ya I know, but it is Star Trek) form of DP should be ship loss, but they can't wrap their heads around ship loss not needing to be overly harsh.

    My position is that ship loss need not be overly harsh. That it's a great way to keep the player driven economy churning, and I don't believe most people will be satisfied with anything but seeing the enemy ship destroyed.

    As for the rest of what I've read in the thread. You people telling others not to come play the game at release? You're the worst type of STO fans there is in my opinion.

  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195

    I think there should be a damage level that causes a ship to explode. Maybe that can be hard to manage..but should be possible. A severely damaged vessel could "limp" or be towed to nearest starbase and repairs made....from an allocated fund that grows with advancement....the real question is whether there will be stiff penalties for a Starfleet Officer that violates The Prime Directive....but since they did it all the time in the series..I guess it doesn't matter.

  • NeblessNebless Member RarePosts: 1,561

    I'm for some kind of death penalty.  Here are some of the things I've seen in other games and something that  may work here.

    No death penalty: SWG.  When they took away all the penalties, all combat became was a 'throw my body at the target, again, again and again because eventually I'm complete the mission.  There needs to be something to make you want to plan, think and WORK to beat the mission.

    Perma-ship loss: PoTBS.  As has been stated players that have put a whole bunch of time in getting the highest level, top of the line ship, have a tendency to only use them if they're sure of the out come of the fight.  Granted this isn't always a 100% thing (many small can beat 1 big).  If we want to see the big ships in the fight there probably should be something less than perma-death for the ship.

    Might work's:

    PoTBS.  Each ship has so many 'life's'.  The smaller the more, working up to just 1 or 2 for the big one's.  This could represent how often the ship could be repaired or some such thing, before the dockyard just condem's it do to too much metal fatigue.

    SWG (old ver).  Each time your ship is destroyed the hull and conponets suffer a loss of points.  At zero points the part / ship just won't work anymore.  This would propably help support a player economy more as it would give the crafters a reason to produce stuff.  (of course if the game doesn't support upgrading your ship with pieces parts then that part goes out the window).

    Either of these would work for both PvE and PvP since a 'death' is a death and the concept would fit the idea of salvaging a ship or towing it back to space dock for repairs.  And for those that don't think ships get trashed remember the opener for DS9 when we see all the destroyed ships vs the borg or the Ent. getting shot up by Khan (ST2)?

    SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWToR - Neverwinter

  • BarCrowBarCrow Member UncommonPosts: 2,195

    The old SWG ship damage system sounds good..and a good engineer could increase the component points with his/her skill..like Mr. Scott or Geordi always re-rigging or tweaking ship components to work better.....and if damaged...the engineer could repair and replace some (but not all) lost points or replce the part altogether...this would make a skilled engineer a vital necessity....if that profession even plays a part.

  • HellsMajestyHellsMajesty Member UncommonPosts: 204

    i think this game would be better suited without a harsh death penalty such as ship loss in EVE however they should find a medium in between being too harsh and making it like WoW

    image
  • MosfetMosfet Member CommonPosts: 125
    Originally posted by HellsMajesty


    i think this game would be better suited without a harsh death penalty such as ship loss in EVE however they should find a medium in between being too harsh and making it like WoW

     

    If I have to fly a ghost ship back to where I was defeated I give up on the MMO industry.

    "Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

  • EverithEverith Member CommonPosts: 482
    Originally posted by Mosfet

    Originally posted by HellsMajesty


    i think this game would be better suited without a harsh death penalty such as ship loss in EVE however they should find a medium in between being too harsh and making it like WoW

     

    If I have to fly a ghost ship back to where I was defeated I give up on the MMO industry.

    ^^ Agreed

    image

  • neorandomneorandom Member Posts: 1,681

     this thread has my attention so ill chime in with my 2 cents, im def for having stuff happen when you die, nobody likes wow style no consequences games for long, theyre boring.  now as far as all the trek ive watched when youre in a fire fight you get damaged decks weapons engines blown off ect, pve wise their should be an option to surrender and retreat (except vs borg or klingons of course because they always fight to the death).  spare parts that you could fix on the fly would be limited to cargo holds ect, after all we know some ships have even been known to carry spare warp core reactors on them.  as far as total destruction of a ship goes theyre almost never fully obliterated in star trek unless your warp reactor explodes because you took a beating and didnt eject it before it ruptured, aka if you dump the reactor because youve lost its gonna kill you and you dont wanna die your ship still exists as a badly beaten and broken hulk with minimal systems and a really slow impulse speed if you have any thrusters left, at this point you need a salvage crew to come save ur ass but ur stuff exists in a state of needing a star base to refit your vessel.  if the game has pvp and it seems it might, would be fun if it did, i guess you could have the option of letting beaten opponents surrender before theyre ship is caput for a bonus to the victor in faction/money/other rewards and possible an option to sit there and pound the lifeless hulk of your opponent until it is no more, of course if he squeeled like a stuck pick for help on the emergency channels you may not have enough time to completely kill his ship before the fleet shows up to scrap you.

     

    so to wrap it up, death penalties?  hell yes.  ways to avoid death via surrendering and losing pve missions to save ur ass, yes!  pvp having bonus for spareing your foe utter destruction, not a bad idea imo.  and in pvp having it take a longer time to destroy a  beaten players ship so that you risk your own ass to allies of his showing up, dam good idea imo.

  • veritas_Xveritas_X Member Posts: 393

    I'm betting there won't be ship loss, or substantial penalty of any kind.  ST is a huge casual-friendly license and that's exactly the kind of game they want to make: casual.  More subs, less canon, etc.  ST immersion/simulation enthusiasts will be annoyed with this game I'm betting.

  • Lazarus71Lazarus71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by admriker4

    Originally posted by noblot


    Death penalty and RvR/PvP are not compatable. There can be a time/distance penalty but players are used to not lossing stuff. Does raise the interesting question of rezzing "ship" in the middle of a battle :)
    Personally I am not concerned, the vast majory of players (hence customers) are dead against it, so to speak. Therefore, it is unlikely that a game aimed at the majority of causual gamers and Star Trek lovers is going to put such a major dampner on any PvP/RvR.
    Are there go reasons for putting in Death Penalties, certainly; and these can even create a good game. However, does it add to the fun? Well I would argue that charging into impossible fights is what makes PvP fun; and that does not happen if you lose your level 50 Star Ship (=6 months of causual game play).



     

    The people against it are not the target market for this game. This isnt a RvR / PvP focused game nor is it designed for the wow crowd.

    As for there being a death penalty or not I would say there needs to be some kind or it will diminish the risk and reward gameplay significantly. Now should it be total loss of your ship thats for the devs to decide.

    Also op could you possibly go one post in this thread without mentioning WoW.

    No signature, I don't have a pen

  • BrifBrif Member UncommonPosts: 529
    Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo

    --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!

     

    The Boondocks ftw

  • loyaltrekieloyaltrekie Member Posts: 105
    Originally posted by veritas_X
    ST is a huge casual-friendly license

     

    I really think you are confusing Star [i]Trek[/i] with Star [i]Wars[/i] with that statement.

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