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Since Full Loot seems to be the Focus again................
GrayGhost79
Member UncommonPosts: 4,775
Full Loot does a few things.
It gives a meaning to PvP in the sense you have something to gain and lose. Full loot makes more sense than stat loss or skill degradation because of a death. Many have repeatedly asked for this type of reward/consequence to make PvP have some meaning other than simple Epeens which give you absolutely nothing to show for all those kills. In the case of full loot you can actually take there weapons, gear and any items on them. This means adventuring out can be risky, it also helps put a smile on your face when someone that has no buisness trash talking attempts to do so. You simply kill them, loot them, and wait for the QQ that comes after.
Aside from all that it helps stimulate the economy. This is supported further by item degradation. Meaning you won't be keeping the items you use a lot indefinetly. One they can be destroyed, two they can be taken. This makes crafters pretty much a constant neccessity. Just because you have the sword you wanted to get for PvP does not mean you will never have to buy another weapon again, you may need to replace it as soon as the next day. Look at the economies of other games and how stable they are, many get ridiculous and rarely work for long. With a system like DarkFalls the economy will be more stable and competetive. Crafters will always be a needed aspect.
Another neat side effect of full loot in DarkFall. Mobs can loot you as well, not only that they can use the loot they get off of you. Meaning that if a group of mobs survive long enough, they can end up pretty well geared leading to some neat random encounters that yield far more loot than you would have expected them to. Gug'Zug the Orc has managed to kill and loot 20 players. Ending up with a good bit of change on him as well as some nice pieces of gear, Random Player takes him down and suddenly won the lottery.
Lots of good comes from Full loot, not only for individuals but for the community as a whole. Any crafter that doesn't like full loot isn't seeing the big picture. Without Full Loot, your place in the game isn't profitable or there for long, Think FFXI crafters to get an idea of what I mean. Without full loot or item degredation Crafters in FFXI generaly spend far more gil getting there crafts up than they ever make in return now days.
For the PvP'r not happy about full loot, all I can muster to say is................. wtf! This is the ultimate of reward/consequence for PvP. You actually have something worth bragging about for winning. There are some nice rewards and severe consequenses imvolved. How could you not like this lol.
For PvE players, it's a neccissary evil that is (In the bigger picture) better for all those involved. Sure you may need to re-gear and may need to do so frequently, but it isn't overly hard to aquire gear in DF. If your truely worried about it simply wear gear you get off of nornal mobs. Might not always be the best gear, but you already know you can get it easy and it won't hurt as much to lose.
For RP'rs............ I really can't see any RP players having a problem with Full Loot. This creates so many RP opportunities I can't fathom a reason many if any RP'rs could possibly have an issue with Full Loot. Example of how Full Loot creates some RP content. Clan Member A: My Lord, on the road to Castle Generic Name here, I was robbed by a gang of Alfars. They relieved me of all my belongings including the item I was sent to deliver. Clan Leader: These vile creatures must be dealt with, yadda yadda, etc etc.
On the reverse side of the RP coin. Clan Member A: Master.......... There is a human convey carrying arms to there allies the Elve's as we speak. There are no more than twnety men. With enough soldiers we could slay them all and increase our own armory. Clan Master: This pleases me, take 30 of my men and bring me everything........ Including there heads ( Evil Laughter) .
In no situation is Full loot an overly negative thing. It's a positive mechanic that is sorely missed in many games as is Item degresation. Without this type of mechanic devs are constantly trying to come up with new and better gear to keep players chasing that carrot on a stick to the point that any player in normal gear vs. someone in Tier 12 PvP gear even at the same level or skill level couldn't possibly win, even if they by some miracle they did, what do they have to show for it? Lets say out of 10 fights you won one. What does that mean?
Full Loot is seen as a negative because no one seems to be looking at the bigger picture. Those that do understand and have either gotten use to the idea or like it. It's needed for many reasons, to give PvP some actual meaning and reward/consequnece. To make crafters needed and to keep the economy stable and meaningful. Anyways you get the idea or you don't.
Comments
It's ok guys... we know you're affraid Aventurine will make a non-full loot server and the full loot server would be empty and devoid of people to gank.
That's the real fear, isn't it? That if they had both, people wouldn't play on the Full Loot server.
I know it, you know it, Aventurine knows it... and if they're smart, they've planned for it already in case the sub pops drops dramatically to regain numbers (whether or not they'll publically admit that).
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Nicely put, this is why I'm interested in DF.
Of all the things to worry about, FFA with full loot just does not seem like a big deal. This is especially true when you consider that items (from what we can tell) have very little impact. While there is some variation to items most of them can be boiled down to looks.
With the recent changes (weapon slots) it has even less impact. I think too many people have gotten use to the itemization found in so many other games. DF simply does not have uber loot. The biggest deterrent I see is losing resources and gold. Items are just not significant enough to be overly concerned with.
I have serious concerns about the game, but this specific thing really is a non-issue.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
First of all, they won't do that.
Secondly. if they did.. I wouldn't care.. because it would probably be a small % of the servers and the other full loot servers would be full as well. If you want an epic gear hunt, keep playing WoW.
I find it incredibly interesting. A week ago when I, and most everyone on the forums was complaining about Aventurine not doing anything on the 22nd...Some fan of the game predicted that Aventurine would come through on the 22nd, and that all of the negative posts would then shift to the "Full loot" system...
It's so pathetic...The very idea of this game is based on full loot, it's something rarely done right, butt critisizing a game because of its basis is pointless. I just don't understand the people on these forums.
Full loot is essential to Darkfall, hopefully it'll work...
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It's honestly like everyone logs onto WoW, and games like WoW, just to masturbate. Everyone plays by themselves, and when they don't, they get what they want and get off.
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Originally posted by atziluth...
Ah yes when the unreasonable are faced with reason they must resort to personal attacks...When you are ready to move up from the kids table you can talk with the grown ups.
Very good read. I would actually consider stickying this.
Nicely put, this is why I'm interested in DF.
same for me.
how ever i do hope thay have severs that say RP on the side.
thats all i want is a few servers that say there RP servers, thay dont have to change any acuale macanics.
I dont dont care if you dont RP and play on said server how ever if you do RP than and we all play on that server its alot more likely we will run into each other
I'd have to agree with you. People these days are always looking for the easiest path to "win" the game. Take for example: UO, WoW, AOC, War.
Full looting is just as much a key staple to Darkfall as is PvP. Anyone who is here crying about the prospect of being looted should not play this game and move onto a different forum. People need to come to terms with the fact that this is not a Themepark MMO where gear is the defining way you characters power is measured. It will be a challenge for the newer crop of MMO players to understand this given when the current crop of MMOs look like, but to complain about it is meaningless I think at this point. The game is what it is, you take it or leave it.
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First of all, they won't do that.
Secondly. if they did.. I wouldn't care.. because it would probably be a small % of the servers and the other full loot servers would be full as well. If you want an epic gear hunt, keep playing WoW.
Are you sure they won't do that like everybody was sure the game would launch before the end of 2008? Or that it would launch on the 22nd?
Or are you sure they won't do that like they would let everybody play before buying? Or that they wouldn't have PreOrders?
...so... just how sure are you that "they won't do that"?
Secondly:
I don't think so... the PvE servers in WoW are the most popular, but I don't play WoW... when I did, I played on a PvE server though.
It's WELL known to developers that, given the choice, users will migrate away from the harsher penalties. You know it too... that's why you, like so many following this development, are, deep down, scared of different server types.
the only saving grace for this type of mentality would be the most likely scenerio... they don't have enough money, or know how (manpower, forsight, etc), to setup multiple servers with different rulesets.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
First off let me say I really do hope DF is a huge win for all the players looking forward to it.
this full loot sytem arguement is getting down right silly.
to say its risk vs reward, I dunno, I mean if the loot = junk what is the risk or reward in that ?
looting some coin off the person I can fully understand and see that, but looting stuff akin to pocket lint
just doesnt seem too awful risky imho. Its like mugging a homless begger
Congratulations valiant slayer of evil you may now take your kills precious items,,,,,,,,,, oh wait he is wearing the same garbage I am. Now I can finally complete my super collection of tarnished boots of nothingness I have always wanted to finish!
what if you were the one that got killed??? than he takes your gear and has anuther set for himself or can sell it and save the cash so he can start getting better gear more regularly.
not all the gears going to be crap tastic , there will be gear that gives you the advantige, problem is you make your self a taget when you put it on ((hope you can trust your clan))
the better the player the better the gear.
Guys your in a catch 22 situation. If the gear is worth taking than nobody will want to risk it, which means the vast majority won't play that game. The game will turn into ganker squads looking for victims until there are no victims left, at which time they will get bored and leave also. If the gear is junk, easy replaceable, common as mud stuff, people will become bored and also look elsewhere. There has to be a better catch than loot to hold the interest of most players to do PvP, other than the 14 year olds boasting, "I'm leet cause I have your stuff" chanting.
what if you were the one that got killed??? than he takes your gear and has anuther set for himself or can sell it and save the cash so he can start getting better gear more regularly.
not all the gears going to be crap tastic , there will be gear that gives you the advantige, problem is you make your self a taget when you put it on ((hope you can trust your clan))
the better the player the better the gear.
still wont matter as I said I am wearing the SAME garbage they are wearing.
THAT is the entire point, I mean once in a great while you might catch some idiot carrying around some good loot. but I am guessing that will be few and far between.
I keep seeing everyone here saying over and over that the gear wont mean a thing and can be easily replaced, that screams to me(personally) whats the point in taking it in the first place then!
I can see some good RP reasons such as the OP pointed out though, other than that full loot is an empty game mechanic IMO as gear decay in an of itself should be enough to keep crafters busy.
cant really see crafters staying too busy when the same junk gear is still circulating its just switching players hands..
all in all I am waiting to see if DF brings to the table everything it promises for the many fans of this game. Personally I think this whole full loot deal is blown way out of proportion and shouldn't matter all that much in the ends if DF brings everything it promisies.
Actually Ganking and griefing would be more prominent on Servers and in games lacking full loot. Seriously without the risk many find it tempting to herass others as much as they can. Most of these players are cowards though, given something to lose.... they tend to decide not to grief and gank as often or at all.
Edited to add: A good example of the above would be AoC PvP servers. The majority were complaining about the griefing going on. There was no risk nor reward at the time so many did it to simply herass others. They did it constantly while others tried completeting quests etc.
As for those saying it's a catch 22 due to gear being worthless, again you are missing the big picture. Gear helps, but isn't the be all end all like in some other games. Having leet gear without the skills to use it means your a walking piggy bank waiting to be broken open. Don't use what you can't afford to lose, only take things with you that can be easily replaced. Now......... how is gear worth looting if the above happens or is true. Simple really, while it may not be leet gear it is Extra Gear. You can sale it, wear it or w/e you want with it. It's still something gained that has a value. Reagents for spells you don't have to buy, Potions you don't have to buy, back up armor if you happen to get looted. Plus it makes that victory a bit better when you took gear and items from that leet player. Those that think they can keep the good gear if they wear it will, those that don't won't.
SLOW pvp.. i mean everytime you die you will have to go regear up at the bank. god willing you have any gear in there.. seems like a waste of time...i feel bad for the new comers to pvp that dont have the skills as some of us vets.. they will get pissed off and just quit plaing. i dont care either way. but i just hoipe it doesnt slow down my killing muahahah
I just love when a orc brings his hole crew, just a bigger piece of cake to chew a hole thru.
bind at bank lol
You mean like faction reputation? Being able to take over clan cities? Full looting? Those kind of Worthy reasons?
Those are already in place. The ganking and griefing tend to happen a lot when there is no risk, again a prime example of this is AoC PvP servers........ as a matter of fact there are many examples of this. Without the risk and reward ganking and griefing run rampant because there's nothing to lose. With a risk in place almost no one would PvP, with no Risk in place people will gank and grief constantly (Not all but large ammounts will) , with Risk and Reward You hit a middle ground, with a goal/focus you cut down on the random ganking and griefing even more. In DF's case the goal/focus is Faction reputation as well as Clan cities, protecting and destroying.
I guess I should say alignment but Faction Reputation works well. Killing a faction enemy = a buff in your reputation with your faction, killing a faction ally = a minus to your reputation with your faction.
It's a whole mesh of mechanics and features that work together, taking one out like FFA PvP would throw things off kilter.
Grayghost I understand what you are tryingto say but,,,,,
losing some junk armor that can easily be replaced over and over does NOT = risk, having someone kill me for the third time that day and taking my *gasp* tarnished short sword of normalacy that I have 20 of in the bank just in case would just make me shrug and laugh..
I do like most of the idea's that DF is attempting to bring to the table
Full looting in a game where gear doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot does not mean risk in my opinion, it seems more like a way to e-peen teabag someone without the actual teabagging
and yes I did play UO pre tram in case you wondered *wink*
This game is aiming for a more realistic and immersive feel...full loot aides this. I think it's great.
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is this really another thread of some nutjob saying how FFA PVP and Full LOOT should not be in DF? I just dont understand why people cant take a game for what it is considering there are hundreds of thousands who are following it. If someone don't like it then why not play something else instead of trying to change something people have been waiting for for years?
I hope I just got trolled with this thread honestly because it gets more annoying seeing people trying to change the focus of this game when there are tons out there that are exactly what they want.....
I understand what your trying to say here. But you also have to look at the fact that there ARE weapons and armor in the game that are actually worth something. Yea someone could never take them out of the bank but then what is the point in that? There will be just as many treasure horders as there are people who want to show off the nice shit they got. And that is when you catch them.....
I'm sure you will kill dozens of people but then say that 13th one had some sweet ass gear on him because he thought he was invincible with it. I know I won't be leaving every good thing I have in the bank, some stuff yea, but not all. And if someone catches me with my pants down then so be it. That is the RISK in this game that you say it is lacking, and the reward that the other person will get. Then throw everything else like faction and going red and being labeled a murderer in and you have a good mix of risk vs reward imho...
The real fear is that you would fail in this game, so please stop crying or dont play the game
We all know people like you cant handle this MMO so you come in try to change it , to suit to the other hundreds of MMOs out there, why cant we have our game ... go back to your safe zone please.
While I understand where the OP is coming from the comments about risk = reward are flawed imho, because the loot aspect of the game is not the main reason I play any game just a bonus if you can call it that. Loot is one way of making money in an MMO but there has to be other ways so as to make the loot irrelevant and not the main source of income.
Okay one mans junk can be another mans treasure, but in a skilled based game where you train a certain skill 90% of the loot will be junk unless you can use everything which drops and if that's the case then for me that would be disappointing indeed. Okay you may argue you can sell the loot, but unless it's a rare item and again you should not be able to instanlly apraise an item unless you have a skill to do so how would you know it is a gem of an item.
Loot = weight = slower movment and I hope this will be the case in DFO otherwise again it would be pointless, so there are many issues which the game needs to prove before the FFA can be of use to anyone not just the looting of the dead.
I feel that to many games allow us to loot items that we can identify they have a certain value, this for me is one of the main reasons loot in MMO has become a joke over the last decade and if this was addressed it would also help to prevent the use of gold farmers too unless you spent the points to identify items but that's for another discussion.
If you know an item is worth 10g you will keep it, on the other hand if it was only worth 10c you would not even bother picking it up. So lets see some change to this mentality and this will help to improve our games for sure.
Bandit.
Asbo