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The Evolution of the Genre.

Long Read - I'm downloading something and practicing my editorialising.

In the beginning, Verant Interactive created Everquest. I had played Ultima Online for about 2 hours when I realised it had nothing to do with Ultima! I tried a copy of Sierra's "The Realm" just long enough to see it was meant for children (It came packaged with my uber-kewl Space Quest collection back in the day.) Then a friend introduced me to Everquest.  I took the summer off work because it was the most fun I had with my computer, ever. It then became the sole reason to own a computer. It was Ultima Online without the crappy 2D overhead graphics. Sure, there were MMORPGS before EQ, but not to most of us. Years pass, companies take notice of the success of the genre and it's potential, and POW look at the list of games coming out! Why am I typing this? I want it on record that the main reason for all the hate being passed back and forth between EQ'ers and non EQ'ers is the fact that back in the day, and now for all I know, EQ had horrible customer service. Many players who would nowadays jump ship in about 10 minutes were forced to play EQ if they wanted to play a MMORPG at all, I mean look at the choices up there. EQ was it, I remember the flood of people leaving for Anarchy Online, and I remember the flood of people asking for their gear back cause they had foolishly given it away because they would "Never come back to EQ." Sure, some didn't come back, for whatever reason they chose to stay gone, I mean, you got your own apartment in AO! Then, repeat with DAoC. And repeat the "can I have my gear back?" messages. Repeat ad nauseum, losing players along the way to the newcomers. These are the people gunning for the next big thing. Something, anything besides EQ.

There has always been talk in the community from the beginning on the advancement of the genre. We wanted to own virtual property, guildhouses. I can remember when I tried UO for those 2 hours walking for 30 minutes through urban sprawl, never seeing a single mob to kill with my newbie sword. We wanted our own boats, some, our own castles, horses, merchants, or what have you. Each and every successor to EQ to has played upon these desires to the extreme, each trying to outgun the other. Pay us your $10 a month and own a kingdom! (SB) or sign with us and we will eliminate twinking (DAoC) sign with us and we will eliminate powerlevelling (one of the founding principles of Horizons) and on and on. They are making money by not being EQ. The game starts, people try it, half the people come back, half don't, and all the while EQ has remained popular despite their poor customer service. So youre probably asking yourself why EQ? Well, my opinion is that since the developers of the new worlds listen(ed) to the disgruntled EQ'ers looking to jump ship, they wisely gave in to the demands of their customers and tried to fill the need. Thats the essence of business, find a need and fill it. The problem is these kinds of people are never satisfied. They are the ones who say "I don't want to try EQ2 cause I have to do all that work again." That is the problem, you consider it work. It is a GAME, it won't fix all your problems, it won't distract you completely from your problems. It is not your alternate existance. It is not supposed to be work.

I'm not bashing anyone, I myself recently rejoined the community after a 1.5 year hiatus. First I headed over to EB world and hey, looky here Horizons for 12.99, I wanted to try this (guy at the store gave it to me for $10 lol) after some problems patching that took 2 days I was ready to go. An enjoyable game. Took some time but I met some nice people. Off to EB I go again this week and whats this? Shadowbane for $5? For that price i'll try it. Another enjoyable game, moreso than Horizons in my opinion - met nicer people faster!. Why is EQ still popular when the competition offers more? (I got stuck in a wall in SB and the time from petition to freedom was literally 15 seconds!!!) My opinion is that - EQ has a social aspect to the game that the competition has overlooked. With the elimination of zones there is no /ooc or shout. Not really. The smart ones made their interface and controls nearly identical to EQ to help us poor migrants. Its a hell of a steep climb when you can either log onto EQ and be chatting with old friends in minutes or spend alot of time alone on Horizons or SB. To be honest with you, DAoC to me is an updated version of The Realm. It looks too kiddie. The EQ way - you start in Qeynos with everyone else. There were (at the time the cap was level 50) level 50 players in their banking and tradeskilling like everyone else. The newbies, once they figured it out, had people to ask questions too, someone to ask advice from. I made many a friend asking and later answering newbie questions. So in the new games when they ask these disgruntled people its "Get the newbies away from us, put them on...an island." What a retarded idea. Now with Horizons and SB both you cannot leave the newbie area till around level 20. You log on, you need to know where to put your skill points or whatever, the only one to ask is "MarilynX Manson001" and he isn't answering, most likely because he doesn't know how.  

Unfortunately the times they are a changin. Everquest isn't Everquest anymore. It would hardly be recognizeable to someone that hadn't seen it in 3 years, or even 3 months. Thankfully I missed most of that. I watched some of my friends, the "this game is work crowd" agonise through it. I watched others keep right on playing and enjoy it. I myself couldn't pick up where I left off, I had missed too much. In trying to solve problems the poor developers created more problems, but at least they were different problems.

To me, the beauty of olde Everquest wasn't what it was, but what it could be. It was always the next step. Now we are at the next step (EQ2). Can we own land? I don't know. Boats? Maybe. Horses? Probably. Can I own another game if they water it down so much it winds up a defunct dust gathering piece of poo? Definately. But not to worry, with the market today, it's not a matter of what game to play so much as it is what type of person you are, it seems there is a game coming to fit every niche and genre. If your a loner I may have 2 games for you to buy :)

I spent way to much time on EQ, I enjoyed it, (other than the corpse recovery) Too much time became way to much time and decisions had to be made. But the fact of the matter is this. I have an active trial on Horizons. I don't use it. There is noone to talk to while I solo, there is noone to group with. They all know what they are doing and want off the island. I have an active trial on Shadowbane. I look forward to playing tommorow because at least the low levels remind me of EQ. Plus there are people to talk too, groups to join. I will get off the island despite my server population being 350 total. When EQ comes out I will try it. When WoW comes out I will try it, maybe not right away, but eventually. I will try guildwars, hope to get it for about $10. Maybe in the end i'll wind up sticking with SB. Who knows. How will I judge? The game that gives me the contented feeling of screwing around with my friends will get me. The game that keeps me intrigued like it used to be levelling in Crushbone and running from D'vinn, then coming back 8 weeks later and kicking his ass will keep me, and i'm guessing, most everyone else. Real Estate or not.

Shouts to Jabober01, look forward to seeing you old buddy.

P.S - I got a rusty 2 hander for ya.

 

 

 

Comments

  • superhero13superhero13 Member Posts: 170

    I agree. The old wonder of EQ has been lost. I feel sorry for people that never got to do a huge 200 person EQ raid..I also feel sorry for those that havent done a 100 on 100 ShadowBane seige. Both are milestones in my opinion.

    My questions become:

    what are the main problems in MMOs right now?

    what could be done to put the WOW (no pun intended) back into MMORPGs?

     

  • HarafnirHarafnir Member UncommonPosts: 1,350

    One important thing I think to put the "Wow" feeling back in MMOs... IS for developers to stop looking at EQ as soon as they need a mechanic desicion. Because the main problem here is, whatever game you start up today, you walk straight into a Class/Level system, secondary skills and mobs that stand and wait to be attacked in a "mob Playground". Of all the games I have played so far, I felt only EVE stepped out of the box and tried something new. Even though I got bored out of my skull watching a rock and a little beam giving me resources, I love and admired their originality and attempt to create something new. It is not only sad, it is pathetic, that so many game developers, creating dozens upon dozens of game, only dare to cut and paste straight out of their neighbour, without once trying to make something new.

    Look into PnP RPG. People used to creating huge and complex game systems... There you will find a lot more diversity in systems and mechanics, and even then do people complain that most are pretty similar anyway. Still D&D is not White Wolf, is not Runequest, is not Mechwarrior, is not Kult, is not Call of Chtulu. There are tons of sources to look into for ideas to game design and original paths never followed before. But still, as soon as a computer game developer start thinking about putting down 5 years into a huge MMO to gain hundreds of thousands of people.... WHAM! Cut and paste...

    This will never.. ever get a "wow" feeling from anyone... Every game that is released now just leaves a bad taste in the mouth of most people, because everyone knows they have played the game before. It is just a new box and this time it support something new on the graphic card.

    Creativity... I wish people had creativity.. right now it seems the russians are leading the market in new ideas for games... Maybe they will have the guts to create an original game concept without looking over the shoulder. Done right, we woudl finally be talking about a "next generation" MMO, and not only "last generation, just simplified" like it is now.

    Only game I wait for right now: Imperator.
    Go Mythic!

    "This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
    It should be thrown with great force"

  • HarafnirHarafnir Member UncommonPosts: 1,350

    And Rhoklaw once again step in and bash a post without any idea what it originally said, then say the poster is wrong by making examples about a completly different subject... Seriously, if you do not know what people have said then stay quiet. You seem intent to bash people by talking about something completly different as your example... This "Your banana is not fruit, my pickup truck is" is damn annoying when people try to talk about things...

    Great.. OK, lets bury this post as well, then. Can not reason with people that have none.


    Only game I wait for right now: Imperator.
    Go Mythic!

    "This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
    It should be thrown with great force"

  • ianubisiianubisi Member Posts: 4,201


    Originally posted by Harafnir
    And Rhoklaw once again step in and bash a post without any idea what it originally said, then say the poster is wrong by making examples about a completly different subject... Seriously, if you do not know what people have said then stay quiet. You seem intent to bash people by talking about something completly different as your example... This "Your banana is not fruit, my pickup truck is" is damn annoying when people try to talk about things...
    Great.. OK, lets bury this post as well, then. Can not reason with people that have none.

    Welcome to the world of forums. You're best served just realizing that this is the way things will always be on forums than trying to change people.


  • ThinmanThinman Member Posts: 461


    Originally posted by Rhoklaw
    I think the reason you see so many cut and paste tactics when it comes to new and innovative MMOs is because they use what works. I'm going to take a moment and step outside the high fantasy box and take a look at some companies that stepped in a different direction.
    First we have AO ( Anarchy Online ) which was a sci-fi game which had a horrible launch, horrible reviews and possibly went bankrupt. Now, I give them credit for having a whole 2 servers to choose from and the fact they even bothered to make an expansion. I think its safe to say AO isn't going to overpower the EQesque genre.
    Next you have E&B ( Earth and Beyond ) which was another sci-fi type game but went to the stars instead of remaining on a planet for enjoyment. Needless to say, its slightly better launch and slightly better review then AO, this game actually has flopped and closed its doors as of this year.
    Somewhere in this era WW2 Online came out which hardly anyone paid attention to, unless you were in the military or liked WW2 type games. Years later the game has come a long ways, which is suprising to say since its still light years behind. Granted the game is made to be used on a single server, the fact remains, its lucky to have 1000-1500 players on during peak times.
    Shortly after E&B arrived, a similar, but by far more detailed and intricate game arrived called Eve-Online. Now this game was the cream of the crop for about 1-2 years, but despite what the front of this website says, the game is exploited and hacked like any other PvP game on the market. I still give the game 5 out of 5 stars, but I wouldn't play it if someone paid me. Well, maybe if they paid me, but certainly not if I'm paying them.
    Now were at a point where the new Star Wars movies have been coming out. So they decide, why not make an MMO about Star Wars? Brilliant!!! I'm not even going to bother commenting on this game any further cause it differs no more then my previous explanations of mediocore successes.
    The most recent game to brave a strange new universe is CoH ( City of Heroes ) which I have tried and tried again for 3 months now. I give the game 5 out of 5 stars for character customization and graphics, but 1.5 stars out of 5 for content. I like pretty games, but who cares when its boring as hell.
    SUMMARY:
    While its quite possible to step away from the ongoing hack and slash genre of high fantasy games. The question is, is that whats wrong with todays games? I admit, Im a D&D fan, but Im also a huge Star Wars fan. Hell, I'd probably even enjoy a Mech Warrior MMO, but the thing is, you have a hard time making these games play differently then a high fantasy game. Just because you change the environment, doesn't mean your changing the basic core mechanics. I'll give E&B, Eve and WW2 a gratuitous hand clap for atleast attempting something extremely different, but in my honest opinion, none of them compare to EQ. I have yet to find any game as involving as EQ, no matter what environment or genre.
    If I was to make an MMO, I would probably go high fantasy. Reason being because it will be 100x easier to make a good game because you have those previous titles to build upon. E&B and Eve had nothing to compare to for their genre and only 1 has survived. Same goes for WW2 and AO for their 1-2 server communities. Fortunately enough for CoH, they will be adding PvP to their game, which will either make it a huge success or an utter failure.
    Its a tough world, this MMO market and aside from CoH, I don't really see any new strong suit genre coming to the surface any time soon.
    One of many,
    Rhojan


    This post doesn't follow the logic of the original post at all. The original post was talking about game systems, not genres. These are two completely different things.

    What genre the next gen games will be has absolutely no relation to the systems which will be used for said games.

    All of the current games simply take the same game systems, and copy them. And that is why so many people feel that the new games which are coming out aren't new at all.

    Rhoklaw: "systems, systems, systems, systems".... "genres, genres, genres, genres"... Look each up, and absorb the difference. This is what the original poster meant, though true you didn't bash, but you've gotta catch the meaning of the post.. This is what he was saying.

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Waiting for WoW, will play until something with new gameplay arrives

    "The philosophy of a corporate entity umbrellas all activities. Obviously, SOE has a flawed way of doing business."
    -Crabby, MMORPG Boards

    _______________________________________________________________________

    Looking forward (cautiously) to: Age of Conan, Dark Solstice, Armada Online.

    Will soon try: Guild Wars

    Overall: Amazed and bewhildered at the current sad state of the artform of gaming.

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033

    In response to the original poster. . .no offense but your editorial thought process seemed very fragmented and hard to follow, which in turn, makes it very hard to understand what your point actually is. So excuse my struggle to place a coherent response within that writing context.

    In the beginning, UO, the Realm, and Meridian 59 paved the way for today’s mmorpgs. None were designed for “children”, but for a broad audience.

    The introduction of EQ presented an advancement in graphics and fantasy, but emphasized the need to achieve a “level” and did nothing for replayability of mmorpgs, imho, with their PvE centric mentality that killing a mob, gaining experience and an item and repeating the process epitomized their vision. . .this is where I think the draw of children into mmorpgs became very prevalent.

    The reason why I say “children” is because they are not mature enough or have enough customer experience to recognize their right to customer service, and because of it, continued to subscribe to the product.

    But today, as the subscribership charts show, not only is the market for the genre expanding, EQ is losing in popularity since it is no longer the only option. MMOG Subscription Growth

    This is good for us since the subscribers can come out of their caves and explore options that they never new existed, but in the recesses of their mind, knew would contribute greatly to their game-play experience.


  • metalcoremetalcore Member Posts: 798

    The wonder of EQ has effected many. Constantly searching for the next sequel to Everquest.

    As yet a game hasnt appeared.

    Verant made Everquest, most of which now own/work for Sigil Games.

    Vanguard Saga of Hero is there next project and from all the stuff I have heard, is going to be one hell of a game.

    Only bad news is its 1.5 years away.

     

    Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
    Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve

  • GoatseGoatse Member Posts: 10

    You are right, It is fragmented, thats what I get for writing at 3 am when I get home from a bar. :) 

    Fragmented or not, I'd like to add to it what I think will make or break any new MMORPG coming on the market, and that is community community community. I can't stress that enough. Its the social model that has made eq the success it has become, weather they planned that or not. It's the little things like an ease of use chat system, the shout and ooc system. If this means having shouts that cover the whole server, go for it, you can always shorten it later. Besides, with horizons and sb having 400 people on at a time, is that such a bad thing? Let me at least think i'm not alone, even if I happen to be the only one on the continent.

    I'd like to again point out that the newbie island or "special areas," aside from tutorials is a bad idea. Don't forget, if you can't give them a taste of the real game in 7-14 or 31 days, depending on the free trial, alot of people won't renew.

    I think my original post was a little too much a "I remember when" post. To be completely honest, I would like my original EQ back, those times were fun, and that leads me to another point. Don't force newbies onto an expansion pack when they aren't ready. Myself, and others I have talked to agree that they would play original Everquest again. If you could say, play original EQ up to your level 50 cap, not forced, but as an option, in the old world. Have a server for original EQ, call it Old School. When you have exhausted old school, log off, go to your account options, check off kunark, and pick your kunark server, the system automatically enables kunark and transfers your charachter level and gear included to kunark. You play up to 60 on kunark, do all the crap, get bored, whatever, do the same for velious and on down the line. Not only is this extremely easy to implement, but it would add new life to the game. Unfortunately, the time to do this would have been 3 years ago. I mention it now as it pertains to any new game and expansion, and even other MMORPGS that are allready out.

    These are all valid points, I'd like to hear more.

  • WickesWickes Member UncommonPosts: 749

    Maybe you meandered a bit =), but then who among us hasn't done that.  Overall, I thought your original post was right on the money.  But many gamers never experienced "the wonder", as another poster called it, and they will never understand what you're talking about.  It's like trying to tell a stranger about rock and roll.

    The social aspect is what all these companies seem to miss now.  EQ's social model was the best by far that's ever been devised.  It kept people playing way beyond the point that they enjoyed the game itself.   It made social easy and mandatory (which some disliked but which was critical to the experience).  I've played most of these other games and not one has ever come close to the social experience of EQ.

    I never understand why all these companies fail so miserably in their social models.  Some of them come up with chat systems which almost seemed desiged to deter communication.  Look at Eve ... stacked chat windows (and I like Eve, but sheesh).   Could you possibly come up with anything worse?

    If these companies think owning houses or castles or whatever is going to make up for interacting with other people, they have to be kidding themselves.  I have an apartment in AO ... and I don't even remember where it is anymore.  My wife's guild has an astounding guild house in DAOC, and there's never anyone in the guild house zone.  There's constant chatter in Eve now about player owned structures.  That will last like, what, three months?  Like it or not, there is a serious issue in that what a lot of people *think* they need to be happy is erroneous.  The original EQ people could not have been more correct in thinking that if you FORCE people to group and work together, good things will happen.  Boy, did they ever.

    That's why we sit here waiting for it to happen again ... if it ever does.  That's why there isn't any possibility that I would not try EQ2.

  • PasomattPasomatt Member Posts: 221

    I think that for market viability, it has to not be Everquest. That is why games come out with anything that is not Everquest. Otherwise the questions get asked: Why would I switch to that over this? Its all about marketing really. Everquest, through years of successful market dominance has a huge chunk of the marketshare. People interested in Fantasy MMORPGs had EQ, SCI-FI mmorpg fans didn't have anything, so they played Everquest... for whatever reason (or nothing at all).

    Then, as you said, Anarchy Online came on the scene. I imagine that people that people more into SCI-Fi then fantasy went and stayed, while a few that went for the 'new' factor came back. So you basically had 2 markets, Fantasy MMOs and Sci-Fis. Anarchy Online had show that it could be done, people could be pulled away from Everquest, but it had to not be Everquest.

    If you play any mmorpg these days, talk to some of the people, you realize no one (or few) are brand new to the genre. They all had a start somewhere. I wouldn't begin to assume actual numbers, but if like 90% of the market is return gamers, and only 10% is fresh people, its always going to be a battle, to pull away from other games, offer something different, etc.

    So that is why the genre has developed into the attempt to offer something new, different, and not a clone. Because the goal is pull away gamers from other games and encourage them to stay through timely addition of conent, new gameplay features, something that you haven't seen before. Because if you've been there, done that 100 times in the past, its likely not going to keep your credit-card hooked to them.

    The variable in the genre's equation is community. This can really make or break a game, and has done both for Everquest. A game can be great, graphically, game-wise, etc. But unless its community is receptive, interactive, and not a bunch of morons, you'll likely not want to play there.

    EQ likely marked the beginning of the genre as many know it. It was the first graphical online role-playing game that I had ever heard of. I still remember thinking... pay... monthly? to play a game? It was surreal and absurd, but proved it could be done. And done it was..

    Its hard to predict where the genre will go next. Obviously mega-liths like Everquest original was will be rare, because as more titles are released the community will become more and more divided. Or on the flip side appeal to a much larger audience, and add to the population. But not every game can be a success, because of how specialized they are becomming.

    Anyways, all MMORPGs have their roots in MUDs (text based games), which then had their roots in things like AOL chat rooms. Proving that it is the community that is at the core of these games. The idea of coming together with other people, for whatever reason, to play out a role and have fun. I think that games will be successful if they cater to this urge. Otherwise its just a single-player game.


    Obviously things won't remain like they are now, forever. Title after title being released. Something extremely different that breaks the mold, yet has foundations and similar concepts in it will arrive and set a trend to be built upon. Just like Everquest did way back when. The idea of paying to play... surreal, absured. But as I said, it worked.

    The genre did exist before, but was never really noticed until what Everquest did TO it. Which likely outraged alot of people for whatever reason. Who knows, maybe Guild Wars, maybe soemthing else. But sometime soon, maybe a year from now, maybe at some obscure studio like Verent was, a title will come along that shakes up the way things are.
    And redefine the genre in a way that no one thought of, or a way that no one thought would work.

    I think a truely great MMORPG would be one that is full of content. Not like mindless leveling or quests, but who knows... like the ability to farm, raise animals, in addition to standard fantasy things. Things that breed different role-playing aspects. Like imagine playing a farmer, having to hire pc hunters to clear some animals out of your field. Things like that... turning mundane things into gameplay.

    Anyways, that's my rambling response.

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033


    Originally posted by metalcore
    The wonder of EQ has effected many. Constantly searching for the next sequel to Everquest.
    As yet a game hasnt appeared.
    Verant made Everquest, most of which now own/work for Sigil Games.
    Vanguard Saga of Hero is there next project and from all the stuff I have heard, is going to be one hell of a game.
    Only bad news is its 1.5 years away.

    I think that you to have your expectations set pretty low and may benefit from becoming a bit more informed :) VG will be a EQ clone PvP centric game. I feel Brad delivered a very low replayable game and as the EQ subscribership continues to dwindle to competition, as has been reported, I'd expect VG to be more of the flavor of the month at launch and less than something that should transcend the genre.

    Many games have appeared that have already shown to transcend the boredom, mind-numbing, shallow game-play of EQ, and some are thankful that there is an outlet for those that are so easily amused.

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