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Facts Falacies about the infamous TCG
ummax
Member Posts: 779
Okay firstly let me say that
a) I wont be responding past the OP because I"m sure this is gonna get flamed to hell
b) I dont actualy play the TCG cause I"m not american and so any of the perks that I could "win" like tournament prizes are something I can't have which kinda takes the fun out of it. I can win a tournament, but can't have the dvd blue ray players 
FACTS and MYTHS
1) The SWG TCG is one of several TCG's that sony has been running now for in some cases YEARS but for some reason this one is being noticed. LON TCG one of their first is I think now 2 years old and runs on the same principles that the SWG one does in fact they are identical. To date no one has screamed about legalities until the SWG one was born. (why now?)
2) Legal this is personal opinion but no they dont seem illegal to me
3) the availability of the TCG's is NOT only ingame they are all available and played outside of the games by many people.
4) the rewards from the TCG are not game breaking. Since I have had an eq2 account for ages and totally ignored the TCG I mean completely I have not one single piece of "loot" from that game not one card or item . .. yet I stil play at the same level as anyone else. SWG TCG which came with perks for just logging into it made me look. I found they are actually fun so I now play
5) very few players spend hundreds on them for the loot.
6) the TCG is in fact a free perk with the games as they are in fact played outside of the game and can be played seperately without even logging in. See forums for this but there are a lot of people who play more avidly then say me (who has only just started attempting to learn the swg one) who are trading and actualy play the games.
7) So far to date the rewards from the TCG have been somewhat less then stellar. I have gotten most of them via the free packs i get monthly as a result of playing SWG and have spent 8 dollars in total out of curiousity.
8) The podracer is not the fastest and best vehicle in the game its is in fact almost undrivable in most circumstances due to its enourmous size. It acts mostly as nostalgia and decoration. Its speed on a straight away is the same as say a swoop bike or bark or one of the other "fastest" choices. If you want to try to turn it it turns like a cow so dont even try... the most popular car is in fact the red one which is popular for looks not speed
9) Have you seen the barn? its ugly as hell and no one wants it. The diner is nice, but its got a massive design flaw with furniture and its tiny. Again they are fluff items which once I saw them they looked really cool in the pictures, but like the podracer would not even try to get as a result of the fact that they are small and in the case of the barn totally useless...
Bottom line the best rewards in the tcg by far so far have been things like paintings of which I have 4 of each of the first set due to free cards... and various things like the bust (I have 2 of those now..)
Personal opinion? Its a card game which kind of peaks my interest as something to do because I'm not a pvp'er and I like to relax in a game. Like most of the people I know though in fact all but one of us we spend no money on the game and if we did it was out of curiousity more then anything. The TCG is not breaking the actual SWG game at least its not affecting mine and from what I can see is more popular with the virtual onlint TCG'ers then actual swg account holders. An example of a TCG game that sony holds with no game attached to it is the stargate one and they have a pirate one which I was wondering if it would be merged with pirates of the burning sea, but it never happened.
SWG's TCG is not something new to sony and I have not seen such a fuss kicked up except when this game was born. If there was such a concern for legality and people's wallets that concern should have been shown 2 years + ago when these TCG's were introduced not now. Its not affecting the quality of SWG however not by a long shot, but I do have 4 no trade paintings stuffed in my bank that i am considering deleting.
The last time I played the TCG was to attempt to beat a christmas scenario so i could get a rock garden which kinda sucked once I won it. I didn't buy a single card to beat that scenario I used the free ones that came with the SWG subscription as I dont play these TGC's as stand alone as they simply are not my cup of tea. The exception to this is that I have considered the pirate treasure one, but never bothered cause I find them far to expensive for what they are.
This info is brought to you buy someone who has actualy seen the barn, diner and pod racer (omg that pod racer sucked..) and who has played the TCG and who has spend a grand total of 8 bucks since the game was introduced as an add on to swg.
*goes back to shooting things instead*
Comments
Your post is light on fact and heavy on personal opinion. If you want facts please see archangels post here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/217080
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
What is pretty obvious is that TCGs were no big deal until one was put into SWG, at which point the "angry vets" went ape shit.
Am I a huge fan of the TCG? No. I don't like card games, and I don't really care for the fact that items that improve game performance that are not essentially copies of already- existing items were put in (I can live with vehicles and decor). But nobody said boo about Legends of Norrath ... SWG TCG comes in and all of a sudden people are calling state Attorney Generals EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T PLAY SWG ANYMORE.
It all comes down to this rabid desire to stick it to SOE no matter what. Pretty much par for the course.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
kobie...you and I both know that the current PAYING subscribers went apeshit over the TCG. Don't blame the angry vets on this one.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
kobie...you and I both know that the current PAYING subscribers went apeshit over the TCG. Don't blame the angry vets on this one.
No, you're right, but the angry "vets" sure jumped along for the ride quick.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Respectfully, why is it when someone else post their opinion they're "angry vets" but when you do it's somehow acceptable? Why is it a neccesity to have an active subsciption to post your opinion on this matter?
kobie...you and I both know that the current PAYING subscribers went apeshit over the TCG. Don't blame the angry vets on this one.
No, you're right, but the angry "vets" sure jumped along for the ride quick.
Why do you have such a burning desire to defend this crappy game and shady company so much?
TCG is a complete scam, I'm sorry the people in other games were too stupid to notice it.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Respectfully, why is it when someone else post their opinion they're "angry vets" but when you do it's somehow acceptable? Why is it a neccesity to have an active subsciption to post your opinion on this matter?
They are "angry vets" because they basically call themselves that, maybe? Would "disgruntled former players" be better?
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
kobie...you and I both know that the current PAYING subscribers went apeshit over the TCG. Don't blame the angry vets on this one.
No, you're right, but the angry "vets" sure jumped along for the ride quick.
Many angry vets still pay to play the game. The other are entitled to their opinion. If the current TCG may be afoul of the law should it not be looked at to protect consumers especially if many are underage?
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
so how much did you pay for those rose-tinted glasses?
Respectfully, why is it when someone else post their opinion they're "angry vets" but when you do it's somehow acceptable? Why is it a neccesity to have an active subsciption to post your opinion on this matter?
They are "angry vets" because they basically call themselves that, maybe? Would "disgruntled former players" be better?
Well, what would you call yourself then if you're being critical of a game mechanic?
The problem with the TCG like everything else in the history of SWG is this: SoE decided that instead of putting forth effort into putting things into the game that players wanted. Instead they opted to try and scoot in a cash cow before KoTOR destroys what very little is left of SWG. Instead of putting effort into making new professions or fine tuning the ones that they have or adding in content that everyone could enjoy or animations that everyone clamors for. Instead, you get to buy cards to get in game loot and beneficial buffs.
Call it what you want but it isn't in place to give new content. It's in place for the sole purpose of sucking money from the struggling and low population player base. Show me posts where people asked for that.
Has anyone mentioned yet that unlike all other trading card games, there are no cards?
That it's entirely virtual within SWG?
Which means there is absolutely no real world check on any fudging of card distribution by SOE?
That the only "tradable" cards must be purchased beyond the "free" cards that come with the SWG subscription?
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
kobie...you and I both know that the current PAYING subscribers went apeshit over the TCG. Don't blame the angry vets on this one.
Okay well said I would not post anything but I am going to correct this. As a current paying subscriber who plays in a guild of 150 people we barely noticed. None of us really post on the official forums either. I post like one post every month. What you see on forums like any other forum is actually not a true representation of any game this everyone can agree on. Most people agree that only 10-15 % of players use forums and the rest stay away. Some stay away cause using forums can actualy ruin enjoyment of gameplay because the drama on forums is often worse then what is in the game. Others stay away cause they hate forums period. Most of us didn't even notice the card game introduction. I logged into it for a free flight suit and then forgot about it and didn't play a single game or open a single package until christmas when I played a few games to learn it and get the xmas gift. Me I actualy dont really understand it and am rather new to all this virtual card stuff. I do know that sony is not the only one with virtual games such as this as that much I looked into. Since the card game is in fact a stand alone game as well the creation and introduction of such a game really has not much to do with the current players other then its added optional content that didn't raise the price tag of the actual monthly subscription that gives 5 free packs a month which you can in fact play cards with if you so choose.
As I said I have played eq2 since 2004 I had to look up when Legends of Norath was introduced into the game and only like 2 weeks ago logged into the card game interface for the first time. This is how much attention a great many players dont pay to these card games.
In short its simply a group of people who rant on forums on the official site who get their knickers in a twist over just about anything.
The card game is a definate add on but its not really that huge a deal unless people choose to make it one. I just keep reading how this stupid game of virtual cards almost appears to be ruining lives from some of what I read. I read how much better the vehicles are (not really some are cooler looking i want the red car as well .. maybe one day I will get a free card with it if i remember to login which I do forget to do every month) I did have fun playing it the 3 times i played it, but to be honest I'm not a huge fan of these games and have always sucked at real cards as well.
Is it illegal? I highly doubt it. The feds on the states in the last 12 months have been on a huge internet rampage as legislation was introduced and updated not long ago. The card games they make have existed now for years and they made this new one to my knowledge sony has not gotten dinged. One does have to realize that sony is not above the law and I dont think that they with all their lawyers and elua and rules about not being able to play outside of the US was not put into place without legal advice. Long story short I see no actual evidence that it is illegal and I truly dont understand this "gambling" part. I play cards like crazy 8's its not gambling I play war its not gambling. This game is kinda like a game of war but a bit more complicated. I see no gambling. I dont bet on the games and there is no betting mechanism. There are rare cards that are obtainable just like when I used to buy those hockey cards etc that are more valuable then others that help you to win games more that are highly sought after as well. For every piece of not so fat loot they introduce into swg they also have a free drop card inside the game once a month that can be traded outside of swg to those that don't play it. To me it seems they thought about it. If a person who plays the game , but not swg gets a loot card they can trade it for one of those cards that drops inside the game. They have given non swg'er (the card players) and SWG'ers who play cards a mechanism to trade and some people aactualy do enjoy the TCG's.
One thing is for sure. Its not really swg content thisi s true however the card game is for those who play cards and is available outside SWG. Its a new product that they saw fit to include with the SWG package. its take it or leave it I dont understand the fuss, but then I never do. If there is something I dont like I dont take part. The content is horribly made though and not the same design team that makes the usual stuff though. The stap speeder we got from the christmas event was much better designed as were things liek the proton chair (hellishly funny to use lol). IN any event I thought I would say something because of a lot of untrue stuff here one of the big things that made me do a double take was the podracer being so much faster thing and the fact that everyone thinks this game can only be played if ou have an swg subscription.
I was also unaware that there is only one way to build a cardgame (everyone seems to like to use WoW's game as the way to build one) if this were true then if we applied that to mmorpg's then I guess there is only one way to build an mmorpg as well. This is sony's brand of card game so I dont get it, but then I also dont get all the fuss & I"m not a card game type. Some people enjoy it and some people dont even know the thing exists. Most people dont really care only those that post loudly on forums are the ones that we see not the general population inside the SWG and if you go to the actualy card game forum you will see a great many discussions and posts by people who dont play swg at all and get kind of upset that this new card game is under attack by a few loud people who seem to rant about just about anything.
Lastly realize that the legends of norath game the one that is interfaced with eq & eq2 existed for almost a year before they introduced it as part of the eq/eq2 package at no extra charge. That was their first go at linking two games into one so there was no lag time as with the SWG trading card game.
TCG's by sony are old news this is the 4th or 5th now that they have designed with only two available for free if you pay a subscription to a certain game. WoW's brand of card game does not have to be the only "true way" so I dont see why people are comparing it to a card game pointing to one as legal and one as not. The only true difference though that I see with the WoW one is that apparently they have packages for sale as well in the stores. I dont think sony does this, but I see no reason that not making the paper version would make their TCG illegal.
There are a lot of unhappy people in this world for whom no one will ever be able to do anything right for or satisfy and who make it known. The only thing that satisfies them is if they are complaining about something. Forums are a great place for that unfortunately, but not everything they say is true.
kobie...you and I both know that the current PAYING subscribers went apeshit over the TCG. Don't blame the angry vets on this one.
Okay well said I would not post anything but I am going to correct this. As a current paying subscriber who plays in a guild of 150 people we barely noticed. None of us really post on the official forums either. I post like one post every month. What you see on forums like any other forum is actually not a true representation of any game this everyone can agree on. Most people agree that only 10-15 % of players use forums and the rest stay away. Some stay away cause using forums can actualy ruin enjoyment of gameplay because the drama on forums is often worse then what is in the game. Others stay away cause they hate forums period. Most of us didn't even notice the card game introduction. I logged into it for a free flight suit and then forgot about it and didn't play a single game or open a single package until christmas when I played a few games to learn it and get the xmas gift. Me I actualy dont really understand it and am rather new to all this virtual card stuff. I do know that sony is not the only one with virtual games such as this as that much I looked into. Since the card game is in fact a stand alone game as well the creation and introduction of such a game really has not much to do with the current players other then its added optional content that didn't raise the price tag of the actual monthly subscription that gives 5 free packs a month which you can in fact play cards with if you so choose.
As I said I have played eq2 since 2004 I had to look up when Legends of Norath was introduced into the game and only like 2 weeks ago logged into the card game interface for the first time. This is how much attention a great many players dont pay to these card games.
In short its simply a group of people who rant on forums on the official site who get their knickers in a twist over just about anything.
The card game is a definate add on but its not really that huge a deal unless people choose to make it one. I just keep reading how this stupid game of virtual cards almost appears to be ruining lives from some of what I read. I read how much better the vehicles are (not really some are cooler looking i want the red car as well .. maybe one day I will get a free card with it if i remember to login which I do forget to do every month) I did have fun playing it the 3 times i played it, but to be honest I'm not a huge fan of these games and have always sucked at real cards as well.
Is it illegal? I highly doubt it. The feds on the states in the last 12 months have been on a huge internet rampage as legislation was introduced and updated not long ago. The card games they make have existed now for years and they made this new one to my knowledge sony has not gotten dinged. One does have to realize that sony is not above the law and I dont think that they with all their lawyers and elua and rules about not being able to play outside of the US was not put into place without legal advice. Long story short I see no actual evidence that it is illegal and I truly dont understand this "gambling" part. I play cards like crazy 8's its not gambling I play war its not gambling. This game is kinda like a game of war but a bit more complicated. I see no gambling. I dont bet on the games and there is no betting mechanism. There are rare cards that are obtainable just like when I used to buy those hockey cards etc that are more valuable then others that help you to win games more that are highly sought after as well. For every piece of not so fat loot they introduce into swg they also have a free drop card inside the game once a month that can be traded outside of swg to those that don't play it. To me it seems they thought about it. If a person who plays the game , but not swg gets a loot card they can trade it for one of those cards that drops inside the game. They have given non swg'er (the card players) and SWG'ers who play cards a mechanism to trade and some people aactualy do enjoy the TCG's.
One thing is for sure. Its not really swg content thisi s true however the card game is for those who play cards and is available outside SWG. Its a new product that they saw fit to include with the SWG package. its take it or leave it I dont understand the fuss, but then I never do. If there is something I dont like I dont take part. The content is horribly made though and not the same design team that makes the usual stuff though. The stap speeder we got from the christmas event was much better designed as were things liek the proton chair (hellishly funny to use lol). IN any event I thought I would say something because of a lot of untrue stuff here one of the big things that made me do a double take was the podracer being so much faster thing and the fact that everyone thinks this game can only be played if ou have an swg subscription.
I was also unaware that there is only one way to build a cardgame (everyone seems to like to use WoW's game as the way to build one) if this were true then if we applied that to mmorpg's then I guess there is only one way to build an mmorpg as well. This is sony's brand of card game so I dont get it, but then I also dont get all the fuss & I"m not a card game type. Some people enjoy it and some people dont even know the thing exists. Most people dont really care only those that post loudly on forums are the ones that we see not the general population inside the SWG and if you go to the actualy card game forum you will see a great many discussions and posts by people who dont play swg at all and get kind of upset that this new card game is under attack by a few loud people who seem to rant about just about anything.
Lastly realize that the legends of norath game the one that is interfaced with eq & eq2 existed for almost a year before they introduced it as part of the eq/eq2 package at no extra charge. That was their first go at linking two games into one so there was no lag time as with the SWG trading card game.
TCG's by sony are old news this is the 4th or 5th now that they have designed with only two available for free if you pay a subscription to a certain game. WoW's brand of card game does not have to be the only "true way" so I dont see why people are comparing it to a card game pointing to one as legal and one as not. The only true difference though that I see with the WoW one is that apparently they have packages for sale as well in the stores. I dont think sony does this, but I see no reason that not making the paper version would make their TCG illegal.
There are a lot of unhappy people in this world for whom no one will ever be able to do anything right for or satisfy and who make it known. The only thing that satisfies them is if they are complaining about something. Forums are a great place for that unfortunately, but not everything they say is true.
Hi Ummax, welcome back lol. You know I enjoy interacting with you. There are many differences between the WoW card game and the SWG card game fyi. See the post in the refuge if you like for all the differences. Very brief summary: WoW has printed cards that you actually own and that do not give combat or other advantages to MMO subscribers. The SWG cards, you don't own them, they give MMO subscribers advantages and you have to pay the SWG sub fee or the Station access fee to continue to use your virtual cards. You may or may not get upset about the differences but they're there. The podracer has a huge open country straight line speed advantage, more than double a swoop. Cornering, you're right isn't it's strength, so I'm told
. The sith speeder also has a huge speed advantage over a swoop and corners on a dime. Also, the buff cards obviously give players an edge.
Wow's game simply appears a lot more user friendly when you compare the two. There are less chances that players will get scammed. SWG's card game can scam you on many levels if you're not very careful, and has scammed some players big time. I just don't like to see that frankly, and given SOE's history with this game, people are going to notice.
I don't mind the TCG concept for SWG (some hate that it breaks immersion, but the level system did that for me lol). I just wish SOE would implement it in a more customer friendly way. They sure could if they wanted to.
As for legalities, I'm aware of possible allegations and relevant legislation. I'm also aware of possible defences, and legislative loopholes that SOE may be able to exploit. Someone who gets paid to sort that all out probably will at some point, given the attention this has received, but it may take some time. Case in point, I've been watching this fraud case here in Canada, and the government finally collected enough evidence to lay a charge...after 9 years. The guy will likely lose, and go to jail forever, but the wheels of justice regarding alleged white-collar crimes can turn slowly.
On one hand, this may lead people to believe they're getting away with quite a scheme. On the other, they may wake up 9 years from now in hell.
I keep up to date with this stuff because of all my old friends I used to work with in the Criminal Court system. One of my friends is a Crown Attorney here, others are lawyers or hold various positions in the criminal justice system and relevant gov't ministries. We get together periodically and trade war stories, past and present. I guess when you put this together with my interest in MMOs and StarWars, it might explain my posts re. the TCG
.
P.S. I just noticed some reference to those upset about the card game as some kind of vocal minority. The last time players got that label was around the protests concerning the NGE and the Trials of ObiWan. We all know how that went down. The few hundred thousand vocal minority players all left and got a refund.
I couldn't make it past this sentence. Your guild doesn't have 150 in it.
I couldn't make it past this sentence. Your guild doesn't have 150 in it.
*sigh*
enjoy the thread this is the point where its about to degenerate into side conversations about things that are unarguable such as say guild size or the number of dots on a photograph. Can't be bothered.
So I leave for another 6 months with this solid reality.
if the TCG is illegal based on the fact that there are no real cards then what about mmorpgs especially ones like say EVE or Ryzom that dont even make a disk are those also scams or illegal? They take your money and give you pixels.
This is simply an extension or another form of entertainment for many in a world that is more and mroe run by computers with websites and brick and mortar business are on the decline and less and less paper is used and more and more hard drives are used instead.
I have no wish however to debate with you the actual size of the guild i'm in so I make my exit and let the trolls start with the trolling as all good trolls do. (I wish more people were like archangel to be honest where they just talk and leave it at that. He one of the most respectful posters on this forum and I enjoy talking to him I can't say the same however for commetns like this so i take my leave )
I couldn't make it past this sentence. Your guild doesn't have 150 in it.
*sigh*
enjoy the thread this is the point where its about to degenerate into side conversations about things that are unarguable such as say guild size or the number of dots on a photograph. Can't be bothered.
So I leave for another 6 months with this solid reality.
if the TCG is illegal based on the fact that there are no real cards then what about mmorpgs especially ones like say EVE or Ryzom that dont even make a disk are those also scams or illegal? They take your money and give you pixels.
This is simply an extension or another form of entertainment for many in a world that is more and mroe run by computers with websites and brick and mortar business are on the decline and less and less paper is used and more and more hard drives are used instead.
I have no wish however to debate with you the actual size of the guild i'm in so I make my exit and let the trolls start with the trolling as all good trolls do. (I wish more people were like archangel to be honest where they just talk and leave it at that. He one of the most respectful posters on this forum and I enjoy talking to him I can't say the same however for commetns like this so i take my leave )
See you in six months then. Too bad you don't want to stick around and actually discuss the game.
"Don't blame the angry vets on this one."
And yet post after post is the same old stuff from the same old played out "Vets".
Go figure...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
wait let me get this straight you have an active subscription and you don't login to the game for months on end am i the only one who thinks this is a bit fishy?
We certainly seem to keep you entertained.
wait let me get this straight you have an active subscription and you don't login to the game for months on end am i the only one who thinks this is a bit fishy?
Ummax was talking about the TCG, not the actual game.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
As Valeran said, you have basically offered personal opinions with absolutely no basis in fact (contrary to the title of your thread which should have been, "My opinions on the TCG")
AKA : A complete waste of everyone's time.
Regards,
S
You obviously HAVENT seen the Murr Talisman, Gorax Ear or Sanyassan Skull. Equally, that there is another TCG expansion on the way and no plans to expand the original SWG beyond the free (and usually pathetic) Game Updates.
So i've read people saying you need SWG to play the tcg, but i read this in the facts:
Playable from within Star Wars Galaxies or through the standalone client, the first release, Champions of the Force, features over 250 digital cards available in both 58-card digital starter decks and 15-card digital booster packs.
So from this i gather you don't need SWG at all to play it or whats the deal? or do you still need a sub to SWG to play it, just curious is all
or actually if you have the station pass you would still be good to play it right?
Reason i'm asking is i have never played a SOE game and am thinking about getting the station pass, i have a copy of SWG the complete online adventures still in the wrapper and think i might try it out.
Also love playing TCG's so i may try it out.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
You have to have an active sub to play the TCG. Ive also heard (cant confirm) that you have to have SWG installed to use the standalone client.
S
Some good points, everyone is putting their opinions on this, i decided to leave it to the government officials that were supposedly called up, i'm sure SOE will just have to tweak a few things to make it legit especially since they have had thier other TCG's running for years as you have pointed out.
Yes sadly you will get called names and trolled since that is normal behavior here, hell i get called troll just for discussing things, people just don't like anyone having a different opinion then them.
Arch did a make a good fact post you should check out, i can respect him because he doesn't try and control what people think like some other's around here.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas